This is a sad statistic and also a very good indication the running game needs to be fixed. Jerod Evans masked a lot of the issues on the ground last season.
Not counting sacks, Virginia Tech is averaging 3.76 yards/rush in ACC play — worst in the league.— Crooked Halery (@DavidHaleESPN) November 7, 2017
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Is this Vance Vice or Zohn Burden in today's coaches meeting?
both
Neither. This is a actually a young Matthew Broderick acting in the move "Ferris Bueller's Day Off".
That is really telling of the overall talent level on the offensive line. Unfortunately, I don't know if it gets better this year. I feel like this is something we have to scheme around and fix with recruiting.
I actually think the O-line talent surpasses that of the backfield
I've definitely seen plays where blocking established a running late, and our RB subsequently runs straight into a tackle. Likewise, there's been more than once that bouncing a play in another direction would yield a bigger gain, only for our backs to stick with the design. Even on a play where all five linemen execute their blocking assignments, sometimes it takes improvisation and escapability by a running back to generate positive yards. I'm not saying we need the second coming of David Wilson; put a player like Cedric Humes or Branden Ore behind this line and our average per rush would go up considerably.
Mclease is shifty, but he goes down so easy. This whole team has been tackled by their shoestrings so many times I'm beginning to suspect they're being coached to go down with contact to keep the ball secure instead of fighting for yards.
Our running game, or lack thereof, continues to flummox me.
Not me. There isn't one runner on the roster that has a combo of just average assertiveness, vision, speed, and elusiveness - let alone size too.
I never understood the gushing over McMillian in his r-frosh year. He had 3 or 4 good games - which were mostly due to a few long runs through big holes. I saw the same runner then that I see now.
It also doesn't help that teams have figured out VT has no downfield threat and can put an extra guy closer to the LOS. Just look at how Duke & Miami schemed and showed NO respect for VT's long pass game.
I think the O line is probably the least of the problems (but not entirely blameless).
Mathematically speaking that's a bit over 11 yards per 3 rushes so I dont see the problem here??? We'd get a first down every time as long as we just ran the ball every single play!!! /s
I mean, GT lives (and dies) by that notion.
Dies, I choose dies. They should die by it this Saturday.
In Bud we trust
Fuente told Bud he wouldn't have to hold the other team to 17 points any more.
17 wouldn't even have done it for either of our losses 😬😬
Short term fix. Play Coleman "The GRIT God" Fox more.
Long term fix: Clone David Wilson
99 problems on offense, and the run game is one. (or maybe half of them)
Part of this is because they keep running the ball, even when running isn't working. It may be all part of the plan, though. I think we've discussed this.
I honestly don't know if it's the OL, the RB options, or both; I just don't see Fuente as the prototypical between the tackle type offensive mind. And I feel like out of all the skill positions, the OL and the RBs resemble the least, what CornFu wants to implement for the offense. Evans truly was a counter to these two issues last year with his running ability.
"I'll take 'Obvious Answers' for $2000, Alex"
The talent is lacking, but there have to be ACC teams with less raw talent than us. Is it the lack of continuity in the coaching the last few years for the offensive line? Is it any one coach on the staff now? Between the lack of a down field pass game and better talent at OL and RB, it seems hard to point a finger at any particular person or unit, but it has to get fixed if we are going to be competitive on a large stage in the future.
McBackfield needs to get going!
Wonder if Peoples not being available has anything to do with this
No
k thanks
When I'm feeling down, I like to imagine a world where we still have Juice and Shai on the team
Shai's stats from Hampton U.
GP Att Gain Loss Net Avg TD Long Avg/G
MCKENZIE, Shai 9 102 520 33 487 4.8 3 37 54.1
Stats
Good for him, looks to be turning it on the last few weeks...def wish we still had him around.
I suppose it would be good to have him, but frankly after the injury he was no longer a P5 back. And honestly he racked up his numbers as a frosh against pretty weak competition. He did very little vs P5-level D's.
Yes, he was a natural runner, but wasn't particularly fast or explosive. There's no guarantee he wasn't a guy who would drop off considerably when the speed of the competition increased slightly.
Joe, thanks for this news (seriously), I'm just:
Yea and I bet like last year that number gets even lower when you look specifically at RB carries between the tackles.
I really don't know if you blame the backs or the Oline. Up till 11-4, I thought our line was doing a decent job pass protecting but were bad at rush blocking. On Saturday, they were horrible at both.
Losing Nijman was key to the drop-off in pass blocking.
Could be the blocking schemes.
There's the old adage that good coverage causes pressure and good pressure causes INT's.
I think t's more of the former. VT has no downfield threat and that allows D's to add an extra hat (or in UM's case, maybe 2 at times) near the LOS for OL's to account for.
recruit better on the O-line and you wouldn't have this problem.... Great o-lines make below average running backs look great.
There are numerous examples on film of well blocked plays in which the running back does not take advantage of the open space. It cuts both ways.
never said there wasn't and I wouldn't disagree with that statement... I would rather have a great o-line than a great running back because a great O-line can mask the deficiencies of a bad RB more than the other way around imo. Plus QB's and WR's benefits more from a great O-line vs a great RB.
Once Drew Harris gets here I bet we'll see an uptick in the running game.
You know there is a point where the Lawson/Harris/Somebody jokes just aren't funny anymore. It is already in the rear view mirror for me.
Reminds me of this shit my dad memorized to mess with people.
🤔
They're still funny to me. What isn't funny to me are 90% of the gifs.
To each his own.
There is no doubt our OL isn't up to snuff in the run game. We won't be a real contender until we can run the ball when it matters.
Very few teams can do that, and even they can stumble too.
I didn't see the stats but I bet OSU didn't to jack on Iowa. Same with PSU vs MSU.
Bama can do that. Clemson can. And that's it.
So we need amazing, consistent talent and excellent coaching.
I regret posting such a short comment because without more room for discourse a lot can be assumed of what I was saying. The fact of the matter is that we aren't just unable to run the ball when we need to, we are statistically terrible at it, one of if not the worst in P5 for the last two years, particularly if you remove Evans from the equation. Our OL play has been extremely lackluster in the run game and I think it has a lot to do with Vance Vice teaching some rather lazy technique and, for lack of a better explanation, we aren't even blocking with good leverage (get low and drive from your legs for god's sakes). I am withholding judgement on Vice for a little bit longer but so far I am not impressed. That's also only just talking about the run game, pass pro from our backup tackles against Miami was atrocious and exposed a serious lack of depth there. I don't have unrealistic expectations for our current state of the OL, but performance was pretty worrisome. I think a lot of what went wrong in the Miami game was fixable, or just plain unfortunate (dropped passes, a few questionable penalty calls against us, fumbles, freshman mistakes). Those things would probably have gone better if we played them again this week, we had a pretty sold shitstorm of misfortune in that game, but the OL got pretty consistently abused by Miami's DL and I think that one isn't immediately fixable.
I also think there are more teams that can currently run the ball when they need to than what you said, I'm not talking about any team having a perfect success rate, but we need to be better than we are now. Right now, I don't trust us to convert 3rd & 3 or lower on the ground against any decent team, and that's not okay. I also think outside of Kelly Bryant, Clemson has actually struggled mightily to run the ball against good competition this year. I wouldn't put them in that category this season. Clemson's backs have been feast or famine. They break some big plays but their ypc against good teams is heavily skewed by long runs. They are struggling to establish the ground game unless Bryant is heavily involved.
In summation, I don't expect us to be Bama or Georgia or anything like that, but if we can even become a middle of the road to slightly above average running team compared to other P5 teams, we will become a much more threatening offense.
No offense, but TL;DR - but I agree with your conclusion that we need to be consistent.
I think this has been said multiple times, but a big part of that is a total lack of a deep threat in the throwing game. Teams can stuff the box every play and the safety never had to worry about getting burnt deep. Hard to run against that.
Exactly.
That only goes so far.....the o line has been sucky for way too many years.
Lukewarm take (I don't do this often)...
I trust Fuente's coaching hires... but I have long wondered if Wiggins and Burden should have switched roles.
People keep bringing up how we need an elite back, and I agree, but I don't think Fuente does. At Memphis, he always had more than 2 backs sharing the load. Nothing has changed at VT. I think that Fuente believes that as long as we get a certain number of rushing yards one way or another, we'll be okay. I miss the days when we always had one very talented back and a serviceable backup. I believe that rhythm is as important in the running game as anywhere else on the field except quarterback, and if Fuente really wants to see improvement in the run game, we need to recruit talented players who can carry 20+ times a game. Fuente has been doing this for a living longer than I've been watching it for fun, though, and I'm willing to trust his judgment, but that's just what I think.
From what I can tell we are going after Devyn Ford harder than any other recruit in Fuente's tenure. I think he knows what a top tier back could bring to his offense
An elite back would be nice, but isn't necessary. What is needed are a couple of backs with decent speed, explosion, and vision that can make defenders miss on occasion. Size and the ability to catch would be a bonus.
I've seen them all over the TV on Saturdays, but not when VT has the ball.
French, do you think a lot of this goes on Vice?
Burden was originally a WR coach not a RB coach. Wonder if that has anything to do with it.
It has nothing to do with it - in and of itself.
College position coaches move around all of the time and the college ranks are full of guys who played one position and coach another.
I think part of it is the fact that the RBs (no matter who it is) never get a chance to get going. With the constant changing of running backs throughout the game, no one back has the ability to gain momentum, figure out what the defense is doing and make appropriate cuts on what the defense is doing. The constantly rotating 2-3 guys has perplexed me quite a bit this season. I understand using multiple guys because of what different things they bring to the table, but for a running back getting momentum and being able to get in the groove, substituting constantly does not help their cause. I definitely think this is a part of it, not all of it of course. The fact that we dont have an elite back is also an issue. As is the OLine. And play calling.
works for the pats. I just think this is the way football is going. heck even UGA is rotating 4 backs. you don't need that 1 guy to carry 20+ a game. now if you have a Leonard fornette or someone of that nature and then a considerable drop off to the next guy then of course he gets all the carries but we don't have that guy. I believe a rhythm for a back is OVERRATED as can be. if theres a hole there and the back can find it he can find it just as well on his first carry of the game as he can his 5th,15th,20th doesn't matter. the issue now is no one on our roster can consistently do that enough to consistently get carries. we got what we got. we either need to get better in all aspects (throw better to get guys out the box, block better so backs have holes to hit, see the holes when theyre there and win one on one match ups) or recuit better and have a stud that consistently makes plays in the run game and is worthy of 20+ carries a game and him be the only back that is, if we recruit 2 studs that can do this we will be splitting carries again and lets be honest. NO ONE complained about these guys splitting carries did they?
This is -- and has always been - not true.
2 or 3 backs works just fine when you have 2 or 3 decent backs. It doesn't work when you don't. But even if you don't, it's no worse than picking one of the below average backs (who likely really lacks some sub-skill) and giving him the rock 15-20 times a game.
As a dolphins fan I had to deal with the same issue last year. Our HC would rotate between 3 backs and none of them could get into a rhythm at all. He eventually was convinced to stick with one RB and you could tell it made a huge difference. He later admitted cycling between RB's was killing their momentum and hurting the team in the end
I really wish we'd just run that McMIllion guy more! /s
I do really wish we'd just run McMillian more
I'm on the fence with this one here.
As French has pointed out multiple times, his pass protection/blocking can be downright atrocious at times.
Also, until he really gets going (which might be why he needs more carries) he is often the guy cutting left and running into his own blocker rather than cutting right and running through a hole for a huge gain (or vice-versa). He seems to lack vision, especially early in the game.
$$$$$
Simply put, he's a below average runner with above average speed. Always has been, likely always will be.
On the rare chance he gets a big hole on the edge, there's a solid chance he can take it to the house - which you can't say about many backs. And if he manages to get to the LBs between the tackles, he will drag guys and turn a 2 or 3 yard run into an 8 yard run (and hopefully not fumble). But he also turns ALOT of 4-5 yard runs into 1 yard runs because he runs too straight up and without purpose.
At this stage of the game, all of the wishful thinking and rationalizing in the world isn't going to change that tiger's stripes.
Wanted to run some numbers to see where we were last year 9 games in 2016 vs 2017.
I think it's pretty easy to see Evans was MASSIVE for the VT run game in 2016. Bigger thing I see is that while totals are not far off having to defend a power running QB in Evans is much different than Jackson in 2017. QB Power last year was a bread and butter play for VT to at least pick up 3-4 yards.
Part of me feels like we should find a way to get Bush involved a bit more, dude seems to be a play-maker and I feel like he is being wasted a bit. Yeah I could be cherry picking stats and looking at that massive 8 YPC line but VT lacks play-makers and Bush seems like he could help out and take some of the load/hits Jackson is taking while still being productive.
Let's chatter
I can't understand, after watching Fox play and the stats above for him, why he's not used more in the games. The kid may not be that big but he is shifty and has the ability to break tackles for big gains.
So, you're saying everyone in the ACC averages enough yards to get a first down every four plays. That settles it. No more passing. Runs on every down.
/s. Sort of.
Most running averages are skewed by big runs. Out of the top 100 runners in cfb, only 24 average less than 5yds/attempt, with only 1 in the top 25. These players aren't all from elite teams either, and you can guarantee their coaches don't just assume running them 3 times guarantee a first down
Link
Tommy Tuberville approves.
I think that if you look at more detail the problem kinda jumps out at you. Tackles for loss or < 1 yd typically mean the O-line is not getting it done. Safeties on the other teams D are getting a lot of tackles for short gain , < 5 yds, means they are not respecting the deep pass and crowding the line. Lack of longer runs > 5 yds, and a general lack of explosive running plays is on the backs. Either they did not block for each other, or did not finding the hole, set up blocks, make people miss, or break tackles. I think it is more on 3 and 2, but excellent O-line play can overcome the others.
I was really impressed with Fox since seeing him in the ECU game. I think he definitely has some real potential to improve our running game if he was a starter.
Yeah and he reminds me of Danny Coale as well.
"...since seeing him [late] in the ECU game". That may be a hint as to why you were impressed.
Honestly, I think he could potentially be used a little more too (not as a starter but particularly between the 20s), but I've never seen a single VT practice - so I have to assume the coaches are seeing something (or not seeing something) that we aren't.
It also has a lot to do with JJ being a freshman.
Defenses are typically stacking boxes and playing man coverage.
Just like Bud, opposing teams want the hokie offense to be one dimensional.
This allows for extra run support and dares JJ to beat them passing.
While our RB's are ok, our receivers need to be better.
It's a talent thing right now, also didn't help that PO was getting a first start at MIAMI.