Spoiler, everyone including the ACC's coaches hates how Notre Dame factors into the equation.
How does the Big Ten get a spot in the Orange Bowl? That's purely based on the CFP rankings. Last year, Michigan finished No. 6 in the CFP rankings (eight spots ahead of the next SEC team) and faced Florida State in the Orange Bowl.
That gave the ACC a spot in the Citrus Bowl, which went to Louisville, while Miami played in Russell Athletic Bowl (which has since changed sponsors).
This year, the SEC would take the spot in the Orange if Alabama (11-1) is left out of the playoff. If Alabama makes the playoff, it's more likely the loser of the Ohio State-Wisconsin Big Ten championship game will end up in the Orange.
Either way, Notre Dame will be Orlando's top priority. The Irish will play in the Citrus Bowl, if the ACC has two slots, or in the Camping World Bowl, if the ACC only has one slot.
Either Virginia Tech or N.C. State would be the choice for the second Orlando slot. (Louisville played there last year).
http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/college/acc/nc-state/state-now/articl...
Comments
I officially hate Notre Dame
F them and F them stealing the 2001 Fiesta Bowl from Vick and the Hokies.
Not so much. The Notre Dame brand got them the Fiesta Bowl. The battle was between VT and Oregon State for the opposite slot. The Pac 10 commissioner went to bat and push hard for the Beavers to be in the game. Tranghese, as he always did when it came to football, did nothing.
Another Swofford contracting wonder. I have no idea how this guy stays in his position. He is an absolute fucking moron. But i guess if you can get your university out of NCAA sanctions after completely debasing the very foundation of university based athletics, then you can keep shitbags like this in power.
Edit: grammar and spelling fix
We need the ability to occasionally give more than one turkey leg under special circumstances. This post qualifies. :--)
I agree. Like Mitch Headburg's three toots on the horn. But after that it's like ffft. And you say Shit!! I wish I wouldnta seen Ricky on the sidewalk!!!!
I guess I get the Swofford hate for his association with UNC, but I don't think he's a moron.
Swofford managed to Keep FSU in the ACC, and admitted Virginia Tech and Miami. He made Maryland pay to leave for the Big 10.
Even the Notre Dame deal has a touch of genius. It arguably helps everyone's strength of schedule, and gets TV viewers (and revenue) for all those games. VT gets to play Notre Dame in Lane stadium next year, for the second time they've ever faced each other (the first time was last year). Sure, he gave Notre Dame a sweetheart deal. Notre Dame gets sweetheart deals, or they don't sign. The cost of that was the bowl slot. Don't want to give that up? Be better than Notre Dame.
If football relevance is something we seek for the conference, more games with Notre Dame isn't a terrible thing.
Exactly. The Big East gave Notre Dame bowl slots and got no games in return.
This is probably going to be an unpopular opinion, but of all Swofford's perceived missteps I find that Notre Dame's inclusion to the ACC bowl pecking order to be much ado about nothin.
I think it's undeniable that including Notre Dame's Olympic sports in the ACC has strengthened the conference as a whole and the league's football programs are much better off with the arrangement that the Irish play 5 ACC teams every year.
Didn't we think it was awesome that we played at ND last year? Isn't it cool that they're coming to Lane next year? I don't see much sentiment around here that playing Notre Dame is a waste of our time or money.
But now that they could potentially mess up where we want to go for a bowl game, we're all "Screw 'em." Wait, what?
The fact that pretty much every ACC school enjoys having Notre Dame on the schedule, but then doesn't want to share in the postseason bowl order... well, that reeks of some hypocrisy to me. To me, this is mostly about the cost of doing business, and it's been good business since Notre Dame has been included in the ACC fold.
Everything you said is fine UNTIL you get to the part where ND takes an ACC bowl spot and keeps all the mi he themselves for it.
Except that's not true. Notre Dame shares in the bowl revenue if they are in a non-NY6 bowl. The only money they don't have to share is if they get into a New Year's Six bowl.
http://www.espn.com/blog/notre-dame-football/post/_/id/14424/clarifying-...
Didn't realize this... that loss to Stanford cost ND a lot of money.
GOOD
You're thinking of the agreement ND had with the Big East. If ND takes an ACC bowl spot (meaning not the playoffs or an at large NY6 bowl), they share bowl revenue as if they were a conference member.
This deal is the most one-sided deal in sports. Notre Dame gets the top basketball conference to park their hoops team in, while the football team remains an independent. The ACC gets a decent OOC game for 5 schools, that they could have gotten without ND- the Big 12 and SEC are desperately looking for good OOC games now that the playoff committee has made that an emphasis. I'm sure VT could find an "equity" opponent twice in 10 years to replace ND. ND also keeps 100% of their NBC TV money of course, and can bump the entire league down in the bowl order if they go 8-4 or better- its ridiculous. Without ND, ACC hoops is not impacted whatsoever- the conference is already loaded and has been for 50 years. The only FB impact is scheduling a decent team instead of Wofford for ACC schools and Swofford negotiating a slightly better 3rd place bowl game. The most one sided deal in sports history.
I disagree, but I can understand this line of thinking, especially in the present day. However, I think the biggest advantage of having Notre Dame in the fold has yet to be realized - in my opinion, the ACC Network has even greater cache with the Irish attached.
Sure, people will point to the fact that their home games will still be on NBC, but it's conceivable that some of their road contests against ACC foes will be broadcast on the ACCN.
While the ACC is currently working on carriage arrangements ahead of the linear channel's launch, I think it's extremely beneficial in negotiations to point to Notre Dame as one of the ACC's brands.
Not just the ACC network. The conference's television value as a whole is greater with ND. Swafford renegotiated with ESPN for more money as soon as the deal was announced.
It's television value for football is nil. They are not in the ACC for football. Swofford can't pitch ND as a football member to ESPN, because they are not one. And football revenue drives the bus. It's the most one sided deal in sports.
I thought the most one sided deal in sports was running qbs against bud foster's defense????????????????
That deal those guys got for not having their team moved to the NBA way back when.
2 words: "In perpetuity"
Ah yes, the Silnas family, who owned The Spirits of St. Louis. I believe the NBA finally bought them out in 2014 for the small lump sum of $500 million.
That's on top of the $300 million(!) they earned over the years in TV revenue, despite never actually owning a team in the NBA. Apparently though, a lot of that money was lost in the Madoff ponzi scheme.
But they are required to play 5 ACC teams a year, of which the road games will be available to the ACC network. It's not as good as if they were full ACC members for football, but it's still 2 or 3 games a year which is more than nothing. It certainly doesn't hurt the ACC network pitch one bit. The loss of revenue from the occasional NY6 bowl slot is almost certainly offset by having ND games to sell ESPN on the ACC network.
In theory, sure. In reality Swofford is not getting any significant "bump" from the possibility of ND vs. Wake or Duke or Syracuse. Those 2-3 games are not going to be FSU, Clemson, VT every year. Its a terrible deal for the ACC
But Wake, NC State, or Duke aren't going to be scheduling ND level teams in lieu of ND. So what probably would end up as a streaming only game just got bumped to ESPN.
I hope you are correct and the ACC gets some huge deal from ESPN for the possibility of 2-3 ND football games on the linear channel. I really hope so. But knowing Swofford and the fact that the UNC/DUKE/Louisville/ND/Cuse hoops carrot got the ACC squat in terms of TV deals compared to B1G and SEC, Im not holding my breath.
ND certainly isn't getting screwed by the ACC, but the ACC is getting the long-end of the stick in the deal with ND. Thinking otherwise is just looking at it through a one-way glass.
I would love to see some evidence of that, I really would. And if your point is that ND will one day join the ACC for full football membership- that's not happening in your lifetime.
I agree with you on that, at least. There is no way ND joins any conference ever unless they are forced to. If the playoff committee introduces a rule that only conference champions can get into the playoffs, with no exception made for ND, then they'd have to join a conference. I don't think that ever happens though, ND has too much pull (i.e. money).
Replying to my post as a catch-all to the line of comments above and below.
Let me give you my point of view. To be honest, what I am reading in the other comments is about the terms of the agreement and not the power of the negotiation. This is where ND won.
First lets get some general points:
ND plays 5 ACC games. ND shares revenue on those games and bowl. ND is contractually obligated to join ACC football if it decides to leave independent status. ND basketball and Olympic sports is wrapped into ACC. ACC gets power of ND in TV contract, which is speculated to be the final thing to push ESPN to sign the deal.
In general that is the gist of the swap. Here's where Swofford fucked up. In the "fight club" of negotiating business with Notre Dame he forgot Rule #1: Notre Dame is smarter than John Swofford.
It is viewed by some (not me) that Swofford masterfully wrangled the elusive juggernaut of Notre Dame into a binding agreement whereby ACC ultimately gets what it wants. A deal with ESPN for ACC Network with ND no less. And what do you know, in this deal Notre Dame is actually taking less revenue than the other ACC schools (combined revenue from ND's contract with NBC for home games, and ACC away games). On top of that they are legally bound to join the ACC if they ultimately decide to join a conference.
Great right? ACC schools get a marque opponent, the network they so desperately need to be competitive with the rest of P5 and immediate increase in take home revenue. Right? Anyone?.... No! Bad Timmy! this is wrong! This is a terrible deal!
Let's go back to Rule #1. Does anyone here think that the leaders of Notre Dame, who built their brand to the 4th most valuable football program at just over half a billion dollars ($579.4 Million), would leave money on the table in take home revenue? That John Swofford somehow got the drop on them? 3 words: NO FUCKING WAY.
To see why they would do this we need to unpack the terms everyone here is not focusing on.
In 2016 ND renegotiated it's NBC contract to extend to 2025. The very same year the College Football Playoff Contract is due to be renegotiated. hmm... coincidence? Why this is significant is because it is expected that 1 of 2 outcomes will happen with the Playoff Contract. Either a) status qou (or some extended playoff of more than 4 teams) will remain; or, b) the 4 team playoff will be restricted to ONLY conference champions.
At that point ND has the following options.
If Scenario A occurs, status quo (or expanded playoffs) continues they can,and likely will, extend it's NBC contract.
If Scenario B occurs, they will become full fledged members of the ACC.
Why is this so powerful? Well let's go back to Rule #1: Notre Dame is smarter than John Swofford.
What Swofford has done in his "genius" move negotiating better terms from ESPN once Notre Dame was included was set a precedent that he can never undue. Specifically, he gifted Notre Dame an opening market valuation in the ACC Network worth, through a multiplier, a hell of a lot more than any other ACC school. By getting the better deal from ESPN with Notre Dame he proved that they are more valuable now, which means as time goes by their exponential value will grow at a steeper rate.
So once 2025 finally gets here Notre Dame in the 2 Scenarios above will have the ACC by the balls. This is because the ACC Network starts in 2019 giving 6 years to grow, which seemingly helps everyone, but due to Notre Dame's opening value being higher than other schools helps them more. MUCH, MUCH MORE. Because in 2025 Notre Dame will be able to apply that multiplier to it's home games, currently under contract with NBC and NOT included in the shared revenue agreements. And so the few million that Swofford "masterfully" bargained out of them turns into tens of millions their going to reap out of the ACC (or NBC).
If they extend with NBC then NBC will be paying. If they need to actually become a full member of the ACC due to Conference Champion rule, then the ACC will absorb those home games. Now who here thinks Notre Dame will be nice again and leave the now tens of millions on the table for the rest of the ACC to share? Hell fucking NO.
They hedged the loss of a few million over these 6 years for the multiplier on the larger opening valuation in the Network that Swofford handed to them on a silver platter. Notre Dame will own the ACC Network valuation. They won. It's already over.
Because Rule #2 when dealing with Notre Dame is: Notre Dame will ALWAYS be smarter than John Fucking Swofford.
I agree that money is often the motivating factor in decision-making.
However, I think you underestimate how much Notre Dame (and specifically, its boosters... aka big $$$) values its football tradition of independence. Personally, I don't understand their insistence on it, but I've interacted with enough Notre Dame fans/alums in various places to understand that it's high on the list of importance for them and it might be #1.
You can call it whatever you want - arrogance, stupidity, archaic... it doesn't seem to change the fact that joining a football conference is about the last thing they want to do. And given the way this season played out, they were possibly 1 win (but realistically 2) away from being in the CFP. So there's clearly a path for them already. They just can't lose 3 games, which would be said about any other team vying for the national title.
Not sure what you mean here. I am not underestimating anything. I also don't believe that they will join. They will hold out as long as they want, but by contract they are obligated to join the ACC if any.
The point is that it doesn't matter if they join or not. Swofford handed them the network.
It's all about butts in the seats and eyes on the TV. Bowls don't care about anything else. And Swofford would make any concessions to bring in Notre Dame, including part time membership.
The football agreement with ND is not any type of "membership" at all.. It's simply a scheduling agreement. ND keeps all of their TV money, bowl money, etc. The only thing ND does for the ACC is give 5 teams an 8-4, 9-3 type opponent on a good year. Or like in 2016, a bad opponent that drags VTs strength of schedule down.
What will the ND agreement do for VT in 2017?
Sell more season and regular tickets, INCREASE the strength of schedule, and add a nationally televised game.
Yes, they got a sweatheart deal. Yes, the ACC gets some benefits from it. And it increases the odds that Notre Dame ultimately ends up in the ACC.
I see that as a win-win.
It's like the bad ND deal followed us here from the Big East (as well as BC, Pitt and Syracuse)
I'm not sure I care that much. Orlando/Jacksonville does not interest me, I'd much rather go to NYC for Pinstripe, or Nashville for Music City.
Does the school's payout vary by bowl? I thought that since the ACC is a profit sharing league, revenue for all teams is collected and redistributed by the conference? Does anyone know?
You get a double share for the bowl you are in. So you get 2/15ths of your bowl games pay, all other schools get 1/15th.
This is the first I've heard of this. Where did you see this?
Wouldn't that be 16/15ths if ND doesn't make a NY6 bowl?
Bowl revenue is shared. Sometimes, it's adjusted slightly for travel expenses.
That's why I was rooting for as many ACC teams to be bowl eligible as possible, but also to try to get as many bowls at the top of the list.
Also, Notre Dame would take a smaller payout than an SEC or Big Ten team in the Orange Bowl. The rest of the money would go to the ACC. So, having them in the Orange Bowl wouldn't be a bad thing.
Notre Dame cannot take the ACC's spot in the Orange Bowl. They can only be the ACC's opponent for that game. The ND agreement doesn't affect the ACC's bowl revenue from the Orange Bowl at all. That revenue is guaranteed to the conference.
I know ND's place in the Orange Bowl, and I was saying that having them as an opponent is actually the best case scenario for the ACC from a money standpoint.
http://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/8633324/acc-orange-bowl-...
So, the part of the payout that doesn't go to ND would go to the ACC. We wouldn't be sharing in Notre Dame's payout, but the ACC payout would be higher.
Ah, gotcha. I wasn't aware of that.
I'm starting to think the only reason anybody is against the ND bowl deal is just irrational hatred for ND. This is a good arrangement for the ACC.
I think a lot of the people who are against the ND bowl deal don't fully understand how it works, getting it confused with the Big East deal where it legitimately screwed us out of money (in a conference without revenue sharing, which was baaaaaad).
With ND, it's not just a bowl deal. They committed to playing 5 ACC schools a year. That was great for us last year and even better next October 6th.
ND is in the ACC for everything else. Basically, they don't play 3 ACC games everyone else does and they yield the right to play in the ACC-CG because of that. Seems like a reasonable deal on both our parts to me.
People expressing vehemently held opinions on topics they don't really understand is what sports fandom is all about, my friend.
This guy RELIES on it.
Apologies for language, in advance.
Fuck Notre Dame.
Fish or cut bait. Join the conference or don't.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I caught a glimpse of Notre Damn ice hockey the other night. There was a big ten logo on their home ice. Is Swofford letting them run around on us?
The ACC doesn't have any hockey teams.
Only BC and Cuse, and they both play in Hockey East
Right, what I should have said is: The ACC doesn't exist as a conference in hockey.
If the ACC were to create a varsity hockey conference, then ND, BC, and Cuse would be forced to join. Predictably, ND and BC would be furious over such a move, but that's a pipe dream, as it isn't likely to happen anytime soon.
We could do it, just tell LOLUVA and UNC that we could beat them in ice hockey. BAM ACC level varsity sport the next year.
Those two would never allow them to get into a situation where they can't win a sport that is historically dominated by the likes of North Dakota, Boston University, Maine, and Denver.
Just tell them that it's Lacrosse on ice.
VT - "You're allowed to have long douchey hair"
UVA and UNC - "Hold up"
Hey
To all you mofos thinking we soft
So we're rooting for Ohio State to win the B1G.
Came here to ask this and now I hate everything.
I'm rooting for Wisconsin. Keeping both Ohio State and Alabama out of the playoff picture is what's best for every other team in the country.
It's not better for me getting to go to Star Wars Land...
Star Wars Land doesn't open until 2019, so you can root against the Buckeyes.
Though the Star Wars ride at Disney is pretty fun.
Yeah, that's really what I mean. They have enough Star Wars stuff right now to keep me entertained.
Agreed, On Wisconsin!
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Also, if Wisconsin wins that ensures a Big10 team in the playoffs, and gives us a great chance of seeing a Big10 team get shutout 3 years in a row.
So, trying to predict the Tier 1 bowl groupings:
If ACC gets the Citrus:
Camping World - VT
Sun - Wake (smallest fan base - why is this a tier 1 bowl!?!)
Belk - Louisville (NCSU opened the season there)
Pinstripe - BC (geographic selection)
Gator (assuming ACC gets Gator instead of Music City according to that article) - NCSU
If the ACC doesn't get the Citrus:
Sun: NCSU
Belk: Louisville
Pinstripe: BC
Gator: VT
Belk has been making a lot of noise about WF, though.
Yep, and Gator/FSU.
I would go:
If ACC gets the Citrus:
Camping World - VT
Sun - Louisville
Belk - Wake
Pinstripe - NCSU
Gator - FSU
If the ACC doesn't get the Citrus:
Sun: Louisville
Belk: Wake
Pinstripe: VT
Gator: FSU
IF FSU beats ULM (somehow, we seem to be in a world where that's actually a legit "if")...
Answer = $$$$$
As always.
That's a great article explaining the ACC bowls and the writer of that article is a great twitter follow for ACC news especially the bowl projections he does. I think he does the best job and goes in depth to find the most likely scenarios. He's listed 2 of his most likely scenarios.
In my mind it seems as if the most likely scenario is for Alabama being the highest rated team left out of the playoffs thus being (probably) Miami's opponent in the Orange Bowl. I think that even in the scenario of Ohio State beating Wisconsin I could see Alabama still being ranked ahead of Wisconsin. So with that scenario Citrus goes to Big Ten, ND to the Camping World, and VT to the Gator Bowl likely against USCe.
Dang, was hoping LOLUVA would be sent to Detroit.
That would be awesome, but no way the military bowl doesn't jump at the chance to get a team with a large DC area fanbase. Of course, this is based on the assumption that any of the NOVA hoo fans would actually go to the game.
The idea of FSU having to go to Shreveport is perfect.
FTFY. GO ULM!!!
I'm not sure which would offend Nole fans more- missing a bowl or going to the Independence Bowl.
They both offend them, so we get to enjoy their annoyance either way. Works out perfect.
If Miami draws Bama in the Orange Bowl and Bama's motivated at all that feels like a game where the Canes get totally paved.
Bama doesn't have the best history of being very motivated in bowl games that aren't the National Championship or part of the CFP under Saban, especially when they aren't given a B1G team to steamroll.
That said, give them a month to get healthy and for Saban to play the Disrespect Card for them being snubbed after an 11-1 season and Miami is in for a world of hurt.
Add to that the winner of the NCG wins the trophy, but if that turns out to be a team with 2 losses, and Bammer rolls in the Orange, couldn't the coaches poll still vote them #1? Pretty sure the AP is "required" to vote the winner of the NCG #1, but there could be some butthurt caused. (Or vice versa with the polls, but one is free-will, one is locked in.)
Also add in the fact that Mark Richt is Fonzie to Nick Saban's Jerry Reed when it comes to da foozeball.
Any insight on why he lists the Gator instead of Music City? I thought is an either or thing?
Unrelated to VT: would totally suck for BC if they got booted all the way down to St. Pete.
I'd take St Pete over El Paso everyday of the week.
I wouldn't. El Paso definitely sucks for fans to travel to, but it's a CBS slot so you don't get those rag tag bowl teams from ESPN, the field isn't total shit, and you get a PAC-12 team instead of a G5 squad. And it's a Tier 1 bowl.
EDIT: Also just realized it's before Christmas on Thursday.
Still get same amount of money from ACC payout, location is better for fans and team to have some fun, same amount of practice time with easier travel.
Still. Hard pass on St. Pete. That bowl is a losers bowl and the field is just asking for someone to get hurt. Payout may be the same but Sun Bowl will definitely get more viewers. It's worse than FedEx. Give me bowl games after Christmas than aren't for losers (Mississippi State played there after a 5-7 season). It's named after a Lawn Mower after all.
All I know for certain is I've begun my savings account for Hooville 2019. Biggest trip I ever get to make. l000luva.
L00000000000000LUVA. FTFY - you were missing 11 '0'
I never get to go to the UVa away game, because I thought we're supposed to save up every two years to go to Charlotte, not Charlottesville.
I'm so dumb.
I'm leaving now, it'll take me two years to get down there on my old broke-down tractor with all my inbred children. Something about banjos, maybe... damn I had something for that.
How can you not pull for Wisky? They will drink anything and I mean anything up there!
Anything but the Sun Bowl.
Pinstripe Bowl:
being a greater nyc local i kinda (selfishly) hope we get the pinstripe
Jersey guy here ...have to say i selfishly agree.
Dilly Dilly to that. Also live less than 2 hrs from the city and would selfishly love a game in the Bronx.
Nope we aren't doing that Le Sabre shit on here. Not happening.
I hate that AB-Inbev has forced this phrase into my ear holes.
Fight fire with fire. Modist in Minn.
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Mosaic are some of my favorite hops, I believe. Hollertau are nice too. lol
Definitely my personal #1, quickly followed by Citra and the combo of New Zealand Motueka and NZ Nelson Sauvin hops Triple Crossing used in the Proposition DIPA way back when they still had access to them. I don't think I've ever had a beer with either of those since, but that was a juice bomb before anybody in RVA was making juice bombs.
Mosaic and Galaxy is a great combination as well. Beer smells like mangoes, passion fruit, and a hint of dank resin from the Mosaic.
If you ever see it, I'd also recommend trying beers with Rakau/Alpharoma. It's another NZ hop that's all about big stone fruit flavors/aromas.
I will say this is a decent response, and a really good delivery of a stop before we make you stop letter. A+ for the effort.
https://www.thrillist.com/news/nation/dilly-dilly-cease-and-desist-modist-brewing
My bowl analysis:
If VT gets into the Music City or the Belk Bowl, I will go.
If they don't, I will watch from home.
Kind of my opinion as well. Music City and Belk are close enough for a 1-2 day trip to see the Hokies Play. Anything else requires a lot more logistics.
Come on french! The big stripers should be rockin' NYC!
Do you mean strippers?
Doubt we'll make back to back Belk Bowl appearances
nevermind...
French- Pinstripe Bowl followed by the Winter Classic..........that's my plan, if I can get interested parties to buy in (a.k.a my wife).
Here's Biter's Article with a Breakdown of Bowls and then at the end Predictions from National outlets:
-- Stewart Mandel, The Athletic: vs. Texas A&M in TaxSlayer
-- Jerry Palm, CBS Sports: vs. Mississippi State in TaxSlayer
-- David Hale, ESPN: vs. Texas in Camping World
-- Kyle Bonagura, ESPN: vs. South Carolina in TaxSlayer
-- Eric Single, Sports Illustrated: vs. Purdue in Pinstripe
-- Jason Kirk, SB Nation: vs. Iowa State in Camping World
-- Bill Bender, Sporting News: vs. Texas A&M in TaxSlayer
-- Erick Smith, USA Today: vs. Kentucky in Music City
So at least 6 of 8 "experts" will be wrong just days before the bowls matchups are set...
I can now see why people pay attention to these guys.
You miss on 100% of the takes you don't make....or something like that
-Michael Scott
i kinda want the pinstripe, it'd be a good excuse to go to NYC
Same here. A VT football game is on the short list of reasons I would actually want to visit there
the wife also likes the idea of visiting NYC, so it'd be a good excuse to get her to go to a VT game
What Bitter's article reminded me was that if Music City picks an ACC team, then they would be forced into a Big Ten team for the next two years. Likewise, if Taxslayer picks Big Ten, they are locked into ACC for the next two years.
Probably safe bet to say that Music City is going Big Ten this year.