It is being reported that the Skins traded Kendall and a third round pick to the Chiefs for Alex Smith...
As a Hokie, I am happy for Kendall to play for a decent organization. As a Skins fan, I don't get it at all.
Any thoughts?
Forums:
DISCLAIMER: Forum topics may not have been written or edited by The Key Play staff.
Comments
I agree. Wtf are the skins doing?
Good to see that Kendall is sought after and has other teams interested in him though! Hopefully he continues to grow and becomes a real lockdown corner for a long time.
Absolutely baffling. Wasn't the washington football team all in on Cousins before last season? But they decide to let him walk and give away one of their best young players for someone who is decent but is only a couple years from retirement.
If they were all in on Cousins, they would have signed him to a long term deal instead of tagging him year after year.
Cousins turned down the long term offer because "God told him to"
...or because it was a shitty deal for someone who's young, coming off his best season, and in a QB-deprived market?
No he literally said that.
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2731609-kirk-cousins-says-god-told-hi...
Yes, and I still stand by my statement.
Yeah, I mean, enough money to never have to work another day in your life for 1 season of football? I'd turn that down too!
Yeah, how dare he ask to make his actual market value!
That's more than he is worth. Every respectable QB analyst thinks he's a low ceiling guy who previously benefitted from great receivers (Desean Jackson) who even when he isn't being targeted he attracts so much defensive attention it makes the rest of his throws easier.
...Is Desean Jackson a great receiver though?
Hes a poor man's Steve Smith. Quick and speedy and can absolutely torch you if you leave him in single coverage all game, but he didn't have the fight to go up and win the battle for the ball like Smitty did.
He is a substantially different receiver from Steve Smith in utilization and skillset. He has Moss-like top end speed and has a noticeable impact on defense preparation. He opens up the field for other receivers to shine.
Desean Jackson impact breakdown
Yes, yes he is.
Counterpoint- Cousins put up essentially the same numbers in 2015 as he did in 2016, even though Jackson missed multiple games and only had 30 receptions in 2015. I don't think Jackson was bad but don't feel like he was an elite receiver either.
Still funny
Wow, this is all kinds of special.
My love hate relationship with Desean as an Eagle in two gifs
As a Giants fan, stupid Matt Dodge.
Dude also went to ECU so we can all as Hokies agree to not like him
Agreed.
He's not an all-around elite guy, but if you watched the Skins during those years, the answer is absolutely yes. Our offense was putrid without him and world beating when he was in. The lack of a deep threat was noticeable and hamstrung the entire passing game when he was out (wait...that sounds familiar).
Yes but QBs in the NFL are not paid in a vacuum. The nature of the business is that he will be overpaid, whoever picks him up. Washington was not willing to give him money than other teams would give him. So why would he take less?
So, what you're saying is Washington was not willing to pay him far in excess of his market value...
Overpaid isn't the same as getting paid in excess of market value.
Market value is set by the terrible contracts of guys like Flacco, Stafford, and Carr
Overpaid is just a term that fans and tv personalities use
The market value is what the market is willing to pay. Whether or not that ends up with a successful team is another thing. No QB like Kirk Cousins has ever hit unrestricted free agency before.
First of all, that's not what he said at all and you know that. I hate Redskins fans that don't understand how the QB market works in the current NFL, you have a good or great QB that hits the market. If you want to keep him, you have to offer to make him a top 5, maybe even higher, paid QB, then, after 2 years in the contract he will be a top 15 QB once every other QB has signed their deals. It's a continual game of leap frog.
There is no, Kirk is a top 15-20 QB in the league so we will make him the 15th highest paid guy. It's, Kirk is the top 1-2 QBs on the market and you have to pay him like that or let him walk. Ask Cleveland how easy it is to find a QB.
Exactly, when a team and a QB negotiate an extension, they are negotiating based off of a composite of the contracts other QBs have already agreed to with their teams. Each negotiation is one team, one QB. They point to other deals negotiated between one team and one QB. When a QB hits the open market, the baseline for a contract agreement isn't "This is what other team X was willing to pay player Y" but rather "This is what team Z is willing to pay me". Extensions are team-friendly moneywise, and player friendly security wise.
A player could make much more money by playing a couple seasons on the tag and then hitting unrestricted free agency (just like Kirk Cousins ding ding ding), but one helmet-to-helmet hit that turns his brains to scrambled eggs or one awkward plant on a bad field that ruptures an Achilles, and it's all over.
Why not a transition tag? See what others are willing to pay him.
Mostly because Washington's front office absolutely loves making bad trades for old players.
because that would mean you assume that the Skins aren't run by a bunch of buffoons
I am NOT a Redskins fan!
Because he is greedy and/or didn't like the situation in Washington. If you look at the list of top paid qbs in the league, they aren't the most elite qbs. We all know Tyrod took less money to stay in Buffalo and open up cap space, Brady has been well underpaid for a long time because he doesn't need the money, loves where he's at, and can use that extra cap space to pick up other great players. If your team wants to offer you more then yea take it. But if you're in contract negotiations and holding out because you don't like only making $20 million a year, you're either greedy or don't like playing for that team.
Also, isn't Kirk super frugile? I feel like I saw him featured on something that showed him living in a super small house during the offseason and driving some old beat up car.
They're either the ones who have signed most recently or with the most leverage. Kirck cousins is about to be both.
I'm willing to bed if Cam Newton, Aaron Rodgers, Big Ben, and Russ all got new contracts next year they wouldn't be holding out or leaving their team because they're not getting franchise tag money. I know Brady is a very special case but the dude takes 14 a year. When athletes are holding out for more money, and the team isn't trying to screw them or take advantage of them, I lose some respect for the athlete. Especially when guys always talk about how they're all about the team and just care about the team winning.
Kirk Cousins didn't hold out or leave the team either. All he did was exercise his negotiating leverage and now he's set to cash in big time. If you think the Packers don't want to extend Rodgers before Cousins's deal, you're silly, and if you think Rodgers isn't licking his chops at the kind of money Cousins is gonna get because he knows he can use that as a benchmark, you're also silly.
I know they're probably going to get his deal done before Cousins I wasn't trying to say they wouldn't. I also didn't say anything about Rodgers not being being excited about his market value (which is looking like it's close to 30 a year). I'm saying I don't like players that leverage massive contracts that restrict cap space for the rest of the team then talk about how it's all about the team and winning games.
Those QBs also had the team come to them to work out super long term contract extensions that was to the benefit of both the player and the team. Washington, on the other hand, basically said "you're only worthy of a 2 year deal". I don't blame Cousins for telling them to shove it, especially when you see how other QBs get screwed over by their teams coughTyrodTaylorcough.
Let's look at the market for starting QB's...he is above-average to good, not great, certainly not elite. Definitely not deserving a higher salary than Stafford, Rodgers, Newton, Rivers, Manning, Luck, Brees, Wilson, Roethlisberger, or Brady (I realize Brady voluntarily takes a smaller check to build his team around him).
Looking at a list of 2017 starting QB salaries, I would put Cousins in the Alex Smith, Derek Carr, Andy Dalton range of $15-17 million, absolutely not 3rd highest paid QB in the league
I agree he isn't the best, but the sad part is the way they negotiate contracts he will probably be paid the best of all those mentioned above.
Someone will overpay, and he will prove everyone right...that he is not a big time QB. Whatever team he lands on will find out, he will get paid, and they will lose games. $15-20 mil is his max value.
Agreed, and that is still a silly amount of money to pay a man for playing thrown and catch.
Coming off his rookie deal, Washington offered Cousins a deal that averaged $12.5m/yr which was well below market value for a starting QB even then. Then they recently offered him a "long term" deal of two years. There's a difference between offering him a deal and signing him to one, and if they wanted him to stick around, the organization sure did a bad job of acting on that.
I don't think they cared so much, he is asking far more than his value, they knew they could replace him with a better QB for less money.
The question was "Wasn't the Washington football team all in on Cousins before the year?"
The answer is "No."
Cousins turned down a five year deal with $28 million guaranteed. Keep in mind he was already guaranteed $24 million of that 28 because he signed the tender. So they wanted him to work for four more years for an additional $4 million guaranteed.
God told him not to be an idiot so did everybody else who saw the deal the Redskins proposed.
Exactly
https://deadspin.com/the-skins-really-couldnt-have-played-this-kirk-cous...
If they were all in on cousins they'd be mountaineers
take your leg...
.
Not a good move on the skins part. QB is very important, but a young promising DB on a cheap contract for a 34 year old game manager QB on a very expensive contract is short sighted.
Cousins is 29, and will be 30 by the time the season begins. Does that still count as "young" for an NFL player. Not being snarky, just wondering your opinion.
Cousins isn't a DB, so that's probably not who he was referring to as "young".
Yep. Reading comprehension issue. Mea Culpa.
As a fellow Skins fan, this was my reaction:
Also as a Skins fan, fuck the Redskins. This organization has been giving me the business for literally my entire life.
Truly the only hope for the organization is for Snyder to sell. I've learned to just not get worked up about these things as long as he's involved. This sure wasn't the first idiot move and unfortunately, I'm sure it's far from the last.
That's not true. He could die. I've been hoping for that for the last few years. But he's a 53 year old billionaire so he'll probably be healthy for another 40+ years.
Thing is the Redskins are still insanely valuable and the fan base is still huge. They make tons of money despite not being very good the last 20 years. Until the bad management actually has a financial impact, Snyder isn't going to sell. The Redskins built up a huge following with their success in the 80s and so many fans have stuck by hoping it goes back to that. As long as they keep sticking by, Snyder is keeping the team
20 years? Try almost 30 years.
If this is true, I love it. Thank you, Redskins -- signed, the rest of the NFC East.
Personally I was done being a skins fan when they fired McCloughan. I was pretty young when they won their last superbowl and I got to hear all about the glory days from my dad. It was easy to be a skins fan, it was a good bonding experience but then we suffered with Snyder and Cerrato. Now that we are with Snyder and Allen it feels eerily similar and I just don't have the strength anymore. Combine that with sometimes it feels like the NFL is more like WWE than an actual game and I have completely lost interest in the NFL. Feels great really.
I saw that McCloughan had this to say about the trade.
Look, I know the guy struggled with the bottle but it clearly didn't affect his ability to scout good talent. I think Snyder just wanted an excuse to get a guy fired who would stand up to him.
If I had billions and owned an NFL team I would freaking hire the best people and just watch success happen instead of dipping my hand in the cookie jar and spreading my germs.
Fuente should have hired him to be the 10th coach/talent evaluator
It might have slightly been alcohol, but I feel his firing was more ego based than anything. Apparently Allen was feeling left out because Scot had done very well in his job, so big baby went and cried to Snyder, and they canned him.
https://deadspin.com/washington-fires-gm-scot-mccloughan-blames-alcohol-...
Added edit:
"McCloughan may have serious alcohol problems, but if it seems like Washington is smearing him on the way out of the door—and that the Post is letting them do so anonymously—well that would be straight out of the Dan Snyder playbook. And why the smearing and airing of the man and team's dirty laundry?
To save a few million bucks, of course."
As a Skins fan, Dan Snyder has legitimately made me lose my passion for professional football. All offseason I was hoping Kirk would go on and we could draft someone, with worst case being Kirk getting another franchise tag but noooooo we go out and get fleeced by the Chiefs. Not only that but we practically give away a promising young Hokie corner. I hate everyone.
tell me why the hell the Skins are willing to give Smith a deal until he's 40 but can't give Kirk the long term deal he's wanted. $17 million is a lot of money for a game manager and giving up Fuller and a third rounder makes this just about the worst trade possible.
Who's gonna be the one to tell him that it's actually $71 million?
I think that $17 Million is still on the Chiefs books, as that's the original signing bonus. The extension is around $50 Million, which I am sure is front loaded. Its not a terrible deal for a Qb. Gives them cap flexibility, since a going rate for a Qb is roughly 20 million per.
Giving up Kendal when you have an aging guy in Norman AND a 3rd rounder is what makes this deal a bad one. Trade the old guy with the bigger contract, not the younger guy.
But if you're the chiefs, why do you make that deal for Norman? Washington didn't have much (read: any) leverage if they decided that Smith was "their guy". As mentioned elsewhere in the comments, the pick is a wash because they'll get a third round compensatory pick when Cousins leaves in free agency.
In the NFL, if you have capable younger player, your best to keep him especially when he's on the rookie contract that is cap friendly for a few years. So if I am Washington, I say look you take Norman, and I'll take Alex and give a 3rd round pick. You have more leverage, because you could essentially just pay Cousins to stay, or tag him.
And then sign him to a team-friendly, cost-controlled extension. Which is what Washington didn't do with Cousins. Which is why they needed a QB in the first place. I get that Washington wasn't forced to make a deal for Alex Smith, but that's why I qualified it with "if he was their guy". If that's who they identified as available that they wanted, then in no way was KC obligated to take Norman instead of Fuller.
This is about maintaining payroll flexibility and having some semblance of stability at QB. I'm not saying it's a good deal, but I'm saying that thinking Norman's contract is easily tradable and that KC would have done that deal is a pipe dream. This is essentially Fuller for Smith with longer-term stability at QB and more year-over-year cap flexibility.
lol i meant his annual salary for the chiefs.... reminding me of the 94 mil we're gonna give him though just made my depression 10x worse
a part of me dies, whenever a Hokie's talents are wasted on a D.C. team. so I rejoice at this news!
*ducks*
Same.
They lucked into drafting a first round talent in Kendall in the third because of an injury, and now they don't have the patience to see it through. Wow.
The Panthers were dumb to let Norman walk but this is arguably worse. They traded Kendall for an older version of the guy they already had whole he's still on his 3rd round Ronnie deal playing at a near Pro Bowl level, and then threw in another 3rd rounder just to sweeten the pot. What the heck we they thinking?
I don't see how this makes Washington any better than they were. Their secondary is going to be interesting to watch next year, as Norman hasn't exactly been the right fit for what they want to do. That said, I'm a little impressed at how willing at least half the NFC East has been to race to the bottom over the past 12 months.
Framing the trade as being about Kendall Fuller is silly, because it's clearly about Kirk Cousins. This comes down to the fact that Washington bundled that contract situation so badly, that I get the sense that there must have been some other tension between him and Gruden for Gruden not to want him around.
Not having even a league-average, serviceable QB on the roster is a lot worse than trading a lockdown slot corner with two years on a rookie deal
You can build a defense of the future around Fuller, who is still on his rookie contact after leaving college early. You aren't going to build an offense around a 34 year old game manager. It's likely Smith sees the decline of his career hit before he makes it through this 4 year deal.
This pretty much said Washington has about 4 years before they are going to be really bad when their talent starts aging out. The problem is, with Dallas and Philly in the division, it's going to be extremely difficult to compete before that deadline hits. If they're looking to blow it up, why not do so now and get a head start on it?
Sure, it's definitely a head-scratcher because it compounds on previous mistakes, yes. I love it as a Giants fan.
You mean like Case Keenum?
IMO ultimately it's really a trade of Fuller & a 3rd for cap space - along with DC taking the risk of Smith pulling a McNabb and spitting the bit before yr 3 or 4.
What was probably DC's biggest issue last yr? Depth. That cap space will buy a lot more 2-deep depth.
Beyond the top 5-ish QBs (and neither Cousins nor Smith are), the next 25 are basically interchangeable and fully capable of guiding a team to an 8-8ish record.
I'm not sure how getting older at QB while trading away your best young cost controlled CB and a 3rd round pick is going to help Washington get better depth. Depth is generally fixed through the draft where you are able to churn through guys on their rookie deals before getting that FA payday. Trading away young assets and draft picks doesn't do anything to help that.
It gives Danny boy the ability to do his favorite thing, sign even more overpriced free agents on the downside of their career.
Washington will get a 3rd round compensatory pick when Cousins signs elsewhere this offseason. Washington gives up Fuller + 2018 third rounder + Cousins and gets Smith + (significant) cap savings + 2019 third round compensatory pick. Trading away a young asset and a draft pick this year doesn't help build depth this year, but saving $8m/year or more on QB sure does and getting another draft pick back next year sure does.
As a Giants fan, I love the trade, but I don't think it's the dumpster fire that Washington fans are thinking either.
You - like many fans - seem to have missed the part about cap space.
I made no value judgement on the wisdom (or lack thereof) of the deal - for either side. I was just spelling out what it means.
Cap space = quality depth (if used wisely).
I think that's the misconception here. I believe this trade was driven because the Redskins realized that they don't have Cousins, not anymore. They can't afford to franchise tag him (and keep a decent team around him), and they would potential lose out if they transition tag him, and somebody offers Cousins a stupid deal that they can't match. So looking forward, with no QB, they had to make a deal for a QB somewhere. If they depend on free agency, they may be left with nothing.
So now they have a servicable starting QB, at a more cap-friendly salary, but due to their situation, they had to give up a lot (Fuller) to get it. It's a shitty deal, for sure, but they put themselves in a situation where they lost whatever leverage they had with their QB, and had nothing in the pipeline behind him. Sorta the best they could do in a bad situation thing, I guess.
Just a flat out awful trade. They basically traded away their best defensive player for a QB nearly identical to their previous starter, just older and a bit cheaper. Pathetic.
In addition to being the highest graded slot corner in the league, DJ Swearinger tweeted that Kendall had the highest grade on the team as well.
Sounds like we just need Tyrod to get traded to the Chiefs to make them my new favorite NFL team with Kendall, Tyrod, and Dadi!
I don't think they would have traded Smith if Mahomes wasn't ready to start.
They can pick up a Tyrod like QB for $12-16 million as insurance policy for in case Mahomes isn't really ready.
I feel so many things about this, but mainly schadenfreude as a Giants fan. Bummer not to see Kendall twice a year, glad Giants don't have to play against Kendall twice a year. Need more information on the contract structure before I pass judgment, but 4/71 guaranteed is about right for a high-floor QB like Alex Smith.
If the deal is as has been reported (Fuller plus a third for Smith), then consider the draft pick a wash as Washington will likely get back a third round compensatory pick as Cousins inevitably signed elsewhere this offseason.
That's only true if they sign nobody in free agency. Which seems unlikely given the number of needs on that team (OL help, DL, probably a receiver, another corner or two now). With the number of possible FA veteran QBs about to hit the market, this is really just mind-bogglingly dumb.
So apparently Kendall was the last to find out that he was traded. He even tweeted this when it was first reported.
He then posted this once it was revealed that he was part of the trade.
After reading the article about Kendall's improvement to becoming
one ofthe best slot corners in the NFL, this trade makes absolutely no sense. The Skins lost a lock down Hokie, who was stolen in the third round, and quality player on a rookie contract.Sad day to be skins fan and bleed maroon and orange.
Kendall Fuller is NFL's Top Slot Defender
As someone who's in Washington....yeah this is about par for the course. Wake me up when College Football starts.
The Hokies are the ONLY True Pro Football team in Virginia.
FTFY
Washington may have an owner, but they've been amateur caliber for decades.
I can sort of understand the trade itself. Cousins was not going to sign a deal. The bridges were burned, regardless of who was to blame. I do hate that Fuller was in the middle of squashing trade rumors on Twitter when he was informed that he was indeed traded.
Why not go after Keenum, Bradford, Tyrod, Cutler etc. if what you're looking for is a couple year starter? This team isn't a QB away from the Superbowl, why are you raiding your future to get a decent (but not great) QB? Find a decent FA, draft a real guy, see where you are in a year.
What if, seeing the mess that Washington made of their QB situation, no FA QB wants to come there? That's a huge risk to take.
Ah shakes head, here we go again with the Skins decisions that make no sense. ....cue the office why are you the way you are gif.
The good news is, at least Washington got their guy in what looks to be a very weak market for QBs this year. Between Free Agency and the draft, the chances of getting a guy who can lead you to a great record and a potential playoff run are just not there. When you put it that way, I can see what Washington was so Keenum Smith and we're all Foles for even questioning this.
It me all morning...
As an Eagles fan, I can't wait for Fletcher cox to feast on Alex Smith.
My family held Redskins season tickets for 54 years and in 2014 my uncle asked me if I wanted to take them over. Redskins side, 10 yard line, 21 rows up, they were pretty damn good. Lots of memories made at RFK and Raljohn as a kid.
"No way," was my response to his inquiry and he canceled them. Neither he, nor I, have regretted it at all since then and trades like this by Snyder only reinforce that point. I'm a very casual fan of the team at this point and by casual, I watched about one quarter of one game this season. It's been so nice to give up caring about them and the NFL.
I also had Redskins tickets, but I got tired of the torture, and when I was out of town had to sell seats I always lost money.
There was truly no joy to it.
You made the right call.
Definitely not looking forward to playing him twice a year. Also LOL at the redskins
Thankfully I already checked out on the skins when they ousted scot and showed they have no intention of competing, only inflating their egos.
At least in the past when Snyder signed stupid contracts it at least seemed like he wanted the team to get better, he just had no idea how. Then scot comes in, shows how to evaluate talent and Allen/Snyder get pissy that they couldn't do it and regress.
Fuck the skins. Go ball out kendall
I don't hate or love the Redskins but I do love shitting on Snyder. So with that in mind, I'm rooting for next year's SB to be Fuller's Chiefs vs whatever team Cousins goes to.
Hello darkness my old friend....
I've come to talk with you again
Wouldn't surprise me if Dan Snyder uses the franchise tag on Cousins and trades him to the chiefs for Kendall Fuller.
When Dan's by himself in the room, he's the smartest person in the room.
It would surprise the shit out of me as there is no way that's happening. The Chiefs traded Smith because they see Mahomes as their guy moving forward. One huge benefit is that Mahomes is on a rookie contract, which opens up cap space to improve their roster. Why on earth would the Chiefs want to sink $34.5 million into a year of Cousins?
100% agree on the Chiefs situation. Just showing my frustration as a Skins fan for the never ending bad moves by Snyder. Why the Skins would trade an up and coming CB 2 years into a rookie contract is beyond me.
Skins running into a cap problem?
I figure they know they'll be paying Fuller and wanted to get the best of their possible deal before they have to lose him to cap maybe?
The "cap problem" was paying Cousins in excess of $30m/year. Fuller was cost of doing business to get Smith in for $23.5m/year
ty for the explanation.
I completely agree. As an isolated event, this was not a bad trade by the Redskins. The issue is that their handling of the Cousins' situation put them in the position to trade a promising young corner on a bargain contract and a 3rd round pick for an older QB with similar stats to the guy they drafted and had multiple chances to extend.
Chiefs and Rams have agreed to a trade that sends Marcus Peters plus a 2018 sixth to LA for a 2018 fourth and a 2019 second. Either the Chiefs see Kendall immediately moving outside, or there's a position open in their secondary. You know which other defensive back is an unrestricted free agent this year? Kyle Fuller.
I am really hoping this happens.
As much as I would love for this to happen.....
https://chiefswire.usatoday.com/2018/02/26/cornerback-yet-again-must-be-chiefs-top-priority/
Looks like some Chiefs guys are thinking that too. Would be an incredible 1-2 punch but doubtful they will be able to pay for Kyle after the year he had. They did say that with Nelson on the Chiefs that Kendall would move to the outside and lock down one side of the field.