My first thought is to wonder who else will sign with or be traded to the Lakers shortly...
My second thought is next year will probably be the first NBA finals in many years without LeBron...
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I, for one, am extremely excited for the Lavar Ball hot takes during this season, in which he will inevitably argue that his son(s) deserve more playing time/money/support staff than Lebron, since Lonzo is the face of the franchise.
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Someone with NBA knowledge explain why this was a good move for LeBron the Lakers don't have anyone to help him dethrone the warriors why go there other than contract ie the money?
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The Lakers have so many young assets from when they were horrible at the end of the Kobe era. These young assets can be used in trades to acquire someone like Kawhi Leonard, who LeBron has made it very clear he wants to play beside.
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The Spurs weren't going to trade Kawhi to be Lakers before, and they definitely won't now.
Of course it won't matter next year because Leonard is an UFA and will sign with LA anyway. But this next year they won't be anywhere close to challenging in the West playoffs.
I do think LeBron is the best ever, but there isn't enough talent on that team right now even with him to beat out the Warriors, Rockets, Spurs, Pelicans, Trail Blazers for seeding purposes over the entire season unless he keeps playing 45+ minutes a game like he had to even in the East
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So the question I've got now is if Leonard can't get out till next year what's this upcoming year going to be other than LeBron dragging another team in the playoffs? Do they have a plan B say if they can't get Leonard for their assets they have? Just doesn't make sense I could've understood Houston or Philly with the players there
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I suppose Cousins is still available, and that would make them interesting, but I still don't think good enough.
Can't imagine there is an actual viable Plan B though. Your assessment seems to be the general consensus, this is almost a "wasted" season if thy can't land Leonard right now.
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It was a combination of business and basketball. He signed a four year deal, and it's not too difficult to see a path where the Lakers' young players continue to develop this year, they sign Kawhi in free agency next summer, and then go into the 2019-2020 NBA year with a core of Lebron, Kawhi, Ingram, Lonzo, Kuzma, etc. At that point, you get usable NBA vets lining up to chase a championship (not unlike David West). Looking at the cap hell the Warriors and Rockets are going to be in over the next few years, the Lakers represent an opportunity for Lebron to expand his business interests and are also positioned decently well to be the next Best Team In The West. Could be looking at Lakers Celtics in the finals again, which is good for the NBA and good for Lebron's legacy (sigh) if he manages to restore the Lakers sheen.
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Agree with everything you said plus I would add more to the business side of things in another aspect.
He has multiple homes in LA already. He is/has been pursuing a actor career, so LA is perfect. Rumor is that he is still working on Space Jam 2. So I see this move as more of a business move AFTER basketball.
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I don't know Magic's other ventures outside of Basketball/the Lakers, but I am sure that was a part of the thinking as well. Magic has proved he can lure the best player to his team, now has to prove he can put the/one of the best teams on the court.
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At best the Lakers are now the 3rd best team in the West without an additional move or 2. For someone who supposedly obsesses about his place in the pantheon of basketball, this certainly is a curious signing. I can't see the Lakers challenging the Rockets next year, let alone the Warriors. Makes you wonder if the move was more about solidifying his celebrity status than about basketball.
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If Cousins stays on with New Orleans, the Lakers won't challenge the Pelicans next year. I'd say this moves makes the Lakers the fifth best team, at best, but probably more like seventh.
I'm on board with the thinking that they really are playing the long game, and keeping the bus warm for Kawhi Leonard next year.
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Even if they get Leonard next year, is that enough to make it out of the West? I'd say no. Even if they got PG13 and Leonard this year, it still would have been a tough 3 way dogfight between the Lakers, Rockets, and Warriors.
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I'm skeptical the Rockets will be much better in two seasons as CP3 ages.
Anthony Davis will be a free agent next summer I believe... as will Durant and nobody knows what his intentions are yet. Lots of dominoes could fall to set up the Lakers very nicely after this upcoming NBA season.
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Everybody and their grandmother knows who LeBron James is.
His oldest son is starting high school in LA, so he probably wanted to stay close to family. The fact that he signed a 4 year deal confirms this in my mind.
.
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Damn it now Lebron games are on a West coast time schedule. Now they all starting at like 1030pm est. I'm too old to be staying up that late watching basketball. Shit.
But good for him getting paid.
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LeBron really is the 🐐. He made people think he & Kyrie had issues, which forced him to be traded to a good team so he wouldn't be stuck in Cleveland when he left. Then, he got Gilbert to trade for Nance Jr. & Clarkson to free up cap space on the Lakers
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Wasn't his "return" to the Cavs all about Ohio being the best place for his family and all that? That sports illustrated article was only four years ago. So in reality, what's more likely: that Ohio has changed that much in 4 years... or, he's just disingenuous.
The current Cavs are his creation as he has had a hand in almost every coaching and personnel decision. His legacy to me is now more about leaving disasters in his wake and media stunts than his otherworldly talent.
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Not sure if confirmed, but there is a rumor that his son just enrolled in one of the best basketball high schools in the country (Sierra Canyon in Los Angeles). This move has as much to do with family as it does with basketball and business opportunities.
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And that's awesome, I really do hope they can play in the league together one day. But idk, still don't know how anyone can believe his stunts when only four years ago he said this:
I always believed that I'd return to Cleveland and finish my career there. I just didn't know when. After the season, free agency wasn't even a thought. But I have two boys and my wife, Savannah, is pregnant with a girl. I started thinking about what it would be like to raise my family in my hometown. I looked at other teams, but I wasn't going to leave Miami for anywhere except Cleveland. The more time passed, the more it felt right. This is what makes me happy.
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How is this a stunt? Priorities can change a lot in 4 years. If you got a much better job offer somewhere else, would you take it? Most people would. Why should it be any different for an athlete? I'm not a Lebron homer, but I just don't understand the hate he gets for making the best decisions for his career and legacy.
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If you got a much better job offer somewhere else, would you take it? Most people would.
You do realize that he could get paid more by staying, right? And sure, you can argue he's leaving for a better team but you'd be ignoring that he has his hands all over the team that was built for him.
I'll give you that this time was less stunt-y but If you don't think that his decision press conference and sports illustrated article weren't stunts, then idk what to tell you.
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Do you really think Lebron cares about a few million in his contract at this point? The man has a billion dollar Nike contract and has stake in a lot of successful ventures. The only thing he is chasing right now is titles, and he obviously sees LA as a better opportunity to do so.
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I do not believe that is the case. the lakers are not set up to win titles right now with the current structure of their team. if he was chasing rings he would have went to philly IMO for 2 reasons. 1 the east is by far the easiest route to the finals and 2. they have a pretty good supporting cast. Lebron is chasing his future for when basketball is over. He went to LA for 1 reason. marketing. his basketball contract is not where the money I coming from.
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My guess is that it's LA to get his kid into the right high school. The contract is for four years, so he'll be a FA when his kid goes into the draft (assuming one and done is gone). The fact that he'll sign with whomever drafts his kid is what's going to get Jr. into the league.
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Dude... you were the one that said he was going to a better job offer. I state both he could earn more money in Cleveland and any argument that the Lakers have a better team fall on his shoulders too. See the ringer article for reference on how he helped "build" the Cavs.
Stop moving the goalposts, please. Your argument about chasing titles just makes him look even worse for not going to Philly, Houston, etc.
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I agree. I think that a "better" job offer can be a number of things. However, money would definitely be one of those factors.
I have also stated why LA wasn't the best offer for rings either (cough, philly and houston, cough) and that any argument for leaving that includes the Cavs not being built to last can only also be contributed to the moves that Lebron helped make. See again the ringer article.
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I'm not even sure what we're debating at this point. I think LA was a good move (for many different reasons) and obviously you don't, so we will just agree to disagree.
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If you got a much better job offer somewhere else, would you take it? Most people would.
You do realize that he could get paid more by staying, right? And sure, you can argue he's leaving for a better team but you'd be ignoring that he has his hands all over the team that was built for him.
I think there's a huge difference between "better job offer" and "more salary". I wouldn't want to do business or play for Dan Gilbert, either.
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That's fair. If there's bad blood between Lebron and Gilbert, I get that. But he clearly didn't mind going back when they had Kyrie and he had just lost with the aging Heat. Now that the team he had a hand in building isn't good enough, he bails again. It's just a gross cycle.
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The current Cavs are his creation as he has had a hand in almost every coaching and personnel decision.
If you do subscribe to the belief that LeBron was calling the shots behind the scenes in Cleveland this time around, some of the deals that were made over the past 12 months do appear to be downright surgical in effectively destroying the Cavs while setting himself and Kyrie up for long term success elsewhere.
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His son is playing ball with Pippen's son in Brentwood. By the way the Brentwood to El Segundo (where the Lakers practice) commute is brutal!
Anyways, he is going to be a Free Agent again when his son is ready to be in the NBA. So that will be interesting, since he will probably end up playing with his son.
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Is LeBron's son actually that good? I always see this "LeBron wants to play with his son" thing like it's a forgone conclusion the kid is good enough to be a one and done.
Like, it wouldn't surprise me if he was that good considering his dad, but being good enough to make an NBA roster at 19 (let alone 18) is pretty exclusive company and there's a ton of room in between to be good at basketball and not be THAT good.
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Lakers will have to make another move. They are not competitive in the West yet, or even very close imo. I think this is a move driven by personal reasons. Although how amazing would a Lakers/Celtics finals be with Lebron vs Kyrie?
As a fan from an Eastern team, DING DONG THE WITCH IS DEAD
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NBA basketball stinks because of player collusion. The soft cap and lopsided teams just doesn't make it fun on a regular basis. I think the commissioner needs to make it so the East is competitive.
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I still find it much more entertaining than college basketball. Still plenty to play for, even for the shit teams. And this coming from a fan of a shit tean lol.
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I'm Knicks fan, its been brutal since the early 2000s. I just wish the league wasn't so lopsided and had legit contenders on both side, and teams that didn't tank for picks.
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I get what you are saying, but I think there is periodic evolution in football at the College level, that help even the playing field at times. I love following upsets every week, and the season is much shorter. NBA has a ton of games, and who really cares if the Knicks beat the Lakers once.
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I'm talking championships. Yeah, upsets happen in NBA and in college ball, but the same teams win it every year. Same teams in the final 4 every year. And there are way more teams in college so the percentage of elite teams in low. I'm very cynical about the sport honestly. I doubt we see a VT championship in the next 25 years...or ever.
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I still find it much more entertaining than college basketball.
But there's no parity in the NBA. It's gonna be the Celtics-Warriors next year barring some catastrophic injuries. College basketball has so much more parity and excitement and March Madness is one of the greatest sporting events in the world. Just my $0.02, but I haven't been interested in the NBA since all this super team horseshit.
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In my opinion, an 82 game regular season with a lengthy postseason filled with recognizable stars beats one and done era college basketball for me. Why get invested when the top end talent won't even be around in the same system after 38-40 games?
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Exactly. Why get invested in any team, at any level, if the players themselves are turning the game into fantasy basketball. Will Cleveland/LeBron fans now become LA fans, or will they remain Cleveland fans? The answer is... neither. The teams are meaningless when fans are disconnected from the loyalty of their stars. Dedicated sports junkies enjoy fantasy sports, but the vast majority of fans will only buy jerseys of their home town/college stars. What do you think they'll do when casual fans realize those players don't belong to them? In the long run this will destroy player salaries too.
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(This might've already been said) I think Bron's intent when signing with the Lakers, is to cement his legacy on the mountainside of the NBA Mt. Rushmore.
via GIPHY
The only way that he'll pass Jordan is to have a unique narrative, and that narrative now is to win a championship with 3 different teams. I'm not sure if he'll top Jordan's 6 championships/2 3 peats, but gotta applaud him for trying. The only concern I have is that the West is so stacked that I could honestly see the Lakers missing out on the playoffs, just because of how deep the West is. Only two teams I give a chance to replace, the T-Wolves and the Jazz.
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With the (very major and unignorable) caveat that there's still a lot of offseason left:
The west runs like 10 teams deep at this point. GSW, HOU, OKC, LAL, POR, UTA, NOP, DEN, MIN, SAS all will feel like their season failed if they don't make the playoffs. I think SAS and MIN are candidates to regress. Spurs because who knows what the deal is with Kawhi, and Pop held that team together with Scotch tape and Elmer's last year. Timberwolves because Thibs is stuck in 2013 and they will need "leap" seasons from Wiggins and Towns to actually compete.
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do you think deandre to dallas helps them improve any? just curious. I didn't watch them much last year but if dennis smith jr can keep improving I don't see why they cant be similar to the jazz. they don't have a bad roster.....
dirk, Harrison barnes, nerlens noel, dennis smith jr, Wesley Matthews, seth curry, dough mcdermot, dorrian finey smith, JJ Berea, deandre Jordan.
the roster on paper should be able to hover around the 6-10 seed in the west.
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Dallas will be much better with Doncic and DAJ. There's no way they grab the sixth seed with that roster. (McDermott signed with Indy, Nerlens to OKC, and Seth Curry to Blazers) The west is LOADED. I just don't think that they'll win more than 32-36 games playing against the murderer's row in the west, and I don't think that roster is better than any of the teams I just listed. I don't think the minimum expectation leaguewide for the mavericks this season is to make the playoffs. I see the comparisons to Jazz roster, but it's probably more Kenny G than Miles Davis. Rick Carlisle is a top-five NBA coach and Dallas won't be actively trying to tank though, so who knows how much they improve.
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I can totally understand not liking Lebron as a basketball player, but saying he's a bad person is way off-base IMO. He married his high school sweetheart, hasn't had any known extramarital affairs, and has been very visibly in his three kids' lives. He's also never been in any legal trouble, much less even faced a one-game suspension from the league.
Obviously, as a life-long Laker fan, I have tried to defend Kobe until death up until I finally recently ceded that Lebron is better. But saying that he is a bad person is just sour grapes from the old-guard NBA contingency.
Edit: not to mention various charitable acts like raising $2.5 mil for the boys and girls club during the decision, and the estimated $42 million in scholarship money donated to 1,100 underprivileged freshmen at the University of Akron.
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The kid didn't grow up in the best of situations, became a multi-millionaire at the age of 18/19m and still somehow managed to keep his life, marriage, and finances clean. He's not my favorite NBA player, but I have tons of respect for the guy.
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Eh, I see from his standpoint: if teams were lowballing him because of his injury just take a one year vacation with the Warriors, no pressure to rush back from injury, get your ring, huge deal when healthy next year.
That said this is the kind of thing where I borderline feel like the NBA needs to step in and not let it happen...it's blatantly obvious he is taking way less than his market value to further upset the balance of power in the league. I feel like when you get a case like this that is blatant cap circumvention the NBA should have grounds to veto it.
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How is it any different than any other time in NBA history? There has always been an unbalanced league...Lakers, Celtics, MJ's Bulls. At it's best, a season with more than 2-3 true contenders has always a rarity.
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How can y'all justify liking the NBA with ridiculous Superstar teams like this being built/bought?
I can never understand this comment
Its easy to say this when its not your team that is the superstar team. we clam for all the 5 stars at VT but get mad that the warriors get them?
regardless I think the warriors are a fun team to watch even if they win 10 straight championships. sure parity is nice but so is good basketball. As a basketball fan I love watching good basketball and the warriors are that. they play great together. pass well. move all the time. hustle. shoot. everything you want to see in basketball, its even better to me to see a bunch of guys that do it at the highest level do it.
did we not all love the dream team winning by 50+ a game? or was that not a thing?
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I don't much care either way, never been an NBA fan and probably never will be. But to your point on the dream team, people loved it because it was unusual. No one wants to see that year in and year out.
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did we not all love the dream team winning by 50+ a game? or was that not a thing?
We also love watching the All-Star Game and seeing how good the game can be when you are able to link the best together. But, outside of the fans of the teams that become super, very few actually want to see this happen every night over the course of 5-10 years. The novelty wears off, and then you're just stuck with one team collecting titles while everyone else plays on a Playskool hoop. And really, the second that LBJ's game starts to tail off (and despite his superhuman abilities now, it's going to happen in the next few years) the gap between GSW and everyone else only gets that much worse.
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It's one thing when its a national team for the Olympics that forms a "Dream Team". NBA used to be more balanced and now that is completely lopsided, the normal fan tunes it out. I can't tell you that last time I legitimately had interest in watching a regular season NBA game. The lack of true competition throughout the league, and the number of teams tanking for lotto ball is terrible. It's a player driven league, not a team driven league.
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I think the NBA is nearing a crisis point where these super teams are really kind of taking the fun and intrigue out of the league. If you're going to devote as much time and effort into making sure teams don't tank to game the draft, it might be time to address players gaming the "cap" to effectively buy a ring. Going into next season, 7/8 of the league from the start has legitimately no shot at the Finals, and there isn't a team that can legitimately match up with GSW. Casual fans are going to eventually go elsewhere.
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I just don't see how the league can regulate that without nuking free agency as we know it. The whole idea of the salary cap and bird rights in the NBA is predicated on the assumption that players will generally aim for the biggest payday. It's boogie's prerogative to take less than his media-perceived value... But the union will be less happy for him than any franchise owners will
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For the NBA to get more parity and out of this superteam mode they should definitely change two things
- Institute a hard cap
- get rid of Max contract caps and let them make as much as they can
It would keep teams from doing the luxury tax loopholes and the big time players would now be turning down $50Mish a year to be by themselves vs making $15Mish to be a part of a superteam.
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I don't think the player's union would let that happen.
- get rid of Max contract caps and let them make as much as they can
That wouldn't change what's happened the last two days. LeBron took less money to go to the Lakers and Cousins wasn't going to get a long term deal with his injury concerns, so he went to the best place for him to rehab the first few months of the season. There's no expectations for him at Golden State...he's just icing on their cake.
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That wouldn't change what's happened the last two days. LeBron took less money to go to the Lakers and Cousins wasn't going to get a long term deal with his injury concerns, so he went to the best place for him to rehab the first few months of the season. There's no expectations for him at Golden State...he's just icing on their cake.
I don't see how this disproves the claim about the max contracts. When you can only make so much to begin with, why wouldn't you take a little less money to be on a contender (honestly i can't even find an article to prove this claim is true, hes the highest paid player in the league with his new contract)? I have to think it would be harder to reject if Lebron is taking $30-$40 million less a year rather than the few million we are potentially talking about here.
I will agree that the Warriors team is a bit of a strange case. They managed to draft Klay Thompson, Curry and Green, so they managed to assemble the core at a ridiculously good value (given where in the draft they were taken). Cousins is in that perfect storm of situations where he probably can't get the offer he wants. So why not take a short term contract to recover from injury, and get a ring in the process. The warriors hit the perfect storm of tremedous draft luck and favorable conditions to bring on great players at bargain value.
But superteams like the warriors and their predecessors (Heat, Celtics) have gotten old. Feels like it takes out any intrigue in the sport before it starts. At least NCAA Basketball has their one-off tourney that always has a fair amount of chaos in it.
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On the surface it doesn't seem like the Lakers are Lebron's best chance to contend, but they are also set up nicely for 2019 free agency. Keep that in mind.
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And its reasonable to expect improvement from Ingram, Ball, Kuzma, and Hart. All the other contracts are 1 year deals that come off the books next year.
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Cousins to GSW is a confluence of several events that is more of an aberration IMO:
His injury means he won't be available until Dec/Jan at the earliest. Not many teams in the NBA are equipped to weather 3-4 months without their nominal starting center.
The center market was squeezed this year. After DeAndre signed with Dallas (who was really the only team who needed a starting center), the only teams who had space to sign him to a bigger money deal are ones who want to be bad (like Atlanta or Chicago), no need (Philly), or burned bridges (Sac). Basically, there weren't that many teams who could actually pay Cousins much more than what he ended up getting from Golden State. Which leads to my next point...
The players' association was incredibly short-sighted a couple seasons ago when they refused to allow cap-smoothing scenarios in 2016. Instead, teams had a ton of cap space immediately and spent it stupidly. That's how you get the Wizards paying Ian Mahinmi $16 mil this year, or Bazemore earning $18 mil this year, or Allen Crabbe $18.5 mil. That year's free-agent middle class got ridiculous money, it capped out most of the teams around the league, and there's been a cash crunch because of it. The market will normalize in a couple years, but that was a very silly move on the part of Michelle Roberts and the players' association.
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People said the same thing (its an aberration) after Durant signed with the Warriors. We're in an era where the best players are just teaming up and creating these super powerful teams that a salary cap was supposed to prevent. Small market teams out there have no shot to compete in this league anymore. Yeah, things are happy and dandy because the fans are showing up to watch these games, but eventually you're going to see fan interest from the have nots erode. Who wants to show up to watch a Hornets-Heat game next year, and those 2 teams very well could be in the playoffs.
The short term health of the NBA is very strong, but I do worry about the league long-term.
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People said the same thing (its an aberration) after Durant signed with the Warriors.
It absolutely was. The rejection of the cap-smoothing scenarios helped it happen.
Plus, Golden State had already signed Curry, Thompson & Green to extensions under the previous salary structure (and Curry's was below his max value because it had been signed at a time when he couldn't stay healthy).
So yes, it was again another confluence of events that created the perfect storm.
And I think it's an overreaction to worry about the league's long-term health. The NBA does a better job of marketing its star players than any other league and it looks like the next generation is well on their way to establishing themselves. Embiid & Simmons, Tatum & Brown, Donovan Mitchell, Giannis, etc. are all 24 or younger. The strength of the league will be determined by its stars, not by the weakest markets (who will still be able to draw when superstars come to town).
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Just some added perspective of how ridiculous the moves the Warriors have made:
They went 73-9 in 2016, the most wins ever by a team in the regular season.
After losing to Lebron's Cavs in what is probably the greatest finals of all time after being up 3-1 they:
1. Replaced Harrison Barnes with Kevin Durant.
the next [next] season
2. Replaced Javale McGee with Boogie Cousins.
They could field a starting 5 that has:
-2 recent MVP's
-All 5 players have made an All-NBA team
-All 5 players are multiple (or every single season) all-stars.
Never been anything like this, there is no comparison.
At this point, it's not about whether "they made the smart moves given the circumstances the league operates under" it's about how they have created a situation where there is no room for competition.
One of my favorite people currently with ESPN, Mina Kimes said it best.
the debate isn't about whether the warriors (or their players) should act differently. it's about whether the possibility of competition exists. https://t.co/dhvSl2mhb0— Mina Kimes (@minakimes) July 3, 2018
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To be fair, Durant and Boogie were two offseasons apart, not consecutive. But your point still stands. I think there's a confluence of circumstances surrounding Boogie, the single biggest being that he tore his Achilles and he's a 270 pounds, 6'11" man.
It's not just that the league operates under a certain set of rules, it's that the NBA is a (super)star-driven league, and when players in this age range start hearing about how the greats always win, it's easy for them to only want to win, even if it means taking a pay cut to enable the best possible roster construction (e.g. Durant taking a lil less so the Warriors could resign Iguodala last year). And because the NBA is a player-driven league, free agency and the mere specter of free agency gives the players tremendous leverage in forcing movement.
Maybe the system is broken, but I wouldn't pin the blame entirely on the players or entirely on the owners. The next round of CBA negotiations is gonna be a nightmare though.
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I think the NFL is 20 years behind the NBA in this regard. The NBA went through the jordan era with the owners holding all the power...their first championship I think Jordan and Pippen were making like 2 million dollars per year..I also think that the NFL needs a more powerful players union, especially considering all the health risks with playing the game..
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Fully guaranteed contracts would be a place to start. Everyone comparing the hard cap in the NFL to the luxury tax in the NBA wrt to parity and team building needs to take a step back and realize that the difference in how contracts are/aren't guaranteed is the single biggest driving factor there. The Thunder are paying ~$316m in salaries + tax payments because they can't just cut Carmelo Anthony and his $27.9m salary (and the tax implications associated with it). The closest mechanism in place (the stretch provision) would save the Thunder a whopping $91m in luxury taxes this year, but they would still have to pay the salary over the next three years.
Thunder, with Paul George at 4/$137M and Jerami Grant at 3/$27M, now have 11 players under contract, at $156M+. A 14-player roster would be $161M + repeater taxes of $155M = $316M total. A Carmelo Anthony stretch and replace with min would save $91M in taxes, as things stand.— Albert Nahmad (@AlbertNahmad) July 1, 2018
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And that's where we are with the league right now. Its not who is going to win the title, that is a foregone conclusion for probably at least the next 2 seasons... Its about how many games are the Warriors going to lose. And with as stacked as the West is compared to the East, the Warriors very well could roll through the playoffs undefeated the way their team is built.
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Looking at historical odds, here are the preseason NBA Finals picks according to Vegas (and actuals)
2017-18: GSW over CLE (GSW over CLE)
2016-17: CLE over GSW (GSW over CLE)
2015-16: CLE over GSW (CLE over GSW)
2014-15: CLE over SAS (GSW over CLE)
2013-14: MIA over OKC (SAS over MIA)
2012-13: MIA over LAL (MIA over SAS)
2011-12: MIA over LAL (MIA over OKC)
2010-11: MIA over LAL (DAL over MIA)
2009-10: LAL over CLE (LAL over BOS)
2008-09: LAL over BOS (LAL over ORL)
2007-08: SAS over BOS (BOS over LAL)
2006-07: DAL over MIA (SAS over CLE)
2005-06: SAS over MIA (MIA over DAL)
So in the last 13 years, the pre-season favorite has won six times. Out of the other seven, the winner was picked as a conference champ three times. The others were:
GSW in '15 (8th best odds in the preseason)
SAS in '14 (4th best odds)
DAL in '11 (7th best odds)
SAS in '07 (2nd best odds)
Really, the only "shocker" teams have been the Warriors first title and Dirk's ring. So why are people now upset that the league isn't competitive? When has it ever been competitive?
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To reinforce this, the last 20 titles have been split between 7 franchises: Spurs (5), Lakers (5), Heat (3), Warriors (3), Mavericks, Pistons, Celtics, Cavaliers (1 each). If you want to extend it back another 15 years to 1984, you add the Bulls (6) and Rockets (2), and some more for the Lakers (3), Pistons (2) and Celtics (2).
The way to win in the NBA isn't to try and build for a title, it's to try and build a dynasty.
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And outside of intentionally tanking to collect assets, how does any team have any realistic path to accomplish that? And I mean multiple assets, because teams with only 1 or 2 guys are now seeing those players leave to these super teams in FA, leaving the original team perennially stuck in the mud.
To further muddy the waters, the NBA stepped in to force Hinkie out of Philly out of concern for the competitive balance of the league, only to now see this happen. And now we have a league that is even more unbalanced competitively than it was during that time.
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It's the same path as it always has been...either have a top notch front office or tank for draft picks. It's like that in every sport, not just the NBA.
Star players leaving for better teams in chase of a ring has happened for decades.
Wilt to the Lakers
Earl the Pearl to the Knicks
Kareem to the Lakers
Walton to the Celtics
Moses Malone to the Sixers
Barkley to Phoenix and then to the Rockets
Drexler to Houston
Shaq to the Lakers then the Heat
Karl Malone & Gary Payton to the Lakers
KG to the Celtics
Dwight Howard to the Lakers
Steve Nash to the Lakers
LeBron & Bosh to the Heat
Ray Allen to the Heat
All of these weren't happenstance. They all either demanded a trade to that specific destination or signed as a FA in order to win rings. Nothing that's happening now is new.
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Wilt demanded the Sixers trade him to the Lakers or he'd leave and go to the ABA.
Kareem demanded out of Milwaukee after a few disappointing season and gave the team a small list of destinations to trade him to or he'd sit out the season. L.A. was the one who they made the deal with because they met Kareem's conditions...on the west coast & a chance to get a ring.
Moses was a free agent and signed the offer sheet from Philly to join Dr. J and the champs. Back then, the prior team had a chance to match any offer, so Houston matched with the intention to trade him and get something in return.
Barkley didn't think the Sixers were going to win again, so he forced the trade to Phoenix in search of a ring.
KG is probably not the best example because he has always said he would have been happy finishing his career in Minnesota, but since they were going young and didn't want to extend him, he was going to be traded. He picked Boston because of Pierce and Allen, so he was going to a great situation, but unlike the ones above, didn't forced his team's hand by demanding a trade to a specific contender.
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The only real way to build a dynasty involves a lot of luck, either through the lottery (hello, Spurs), draft (hitting on a late pick, having the team in front of you draft the bust), other teams' ineptitude (see Celtics/Nets trade, totally mismanaging a team around a (super)star that drives them to free agency), etc. Tanking as a route to a #1 pick is sorta nerfed now with draft lottery reform, but it's still a viable route to strip down the team to collect draft assets, a lot like Atlanta is currently doing and Charlotte ought to be if the goal is one or multiple championships.
Look at how the Warriors did it, as an example: excellent drafting coupled with excellent player development, and excellent management.
Excellent Drafting/Development: Curry was on the board because David Kahn drafted Jonny Flynn and Ricky Rubio with back to back picks. Everybody passed on Draymond. Klay was drafted directly after Jimmer Fredette. More recent picks like Pat McCaw and Jordan Bell were shrewd picks that added contributing pieces to the bench. Harrison Barnes was a solid player for them and was a part of the OG Lineup of Death. Look at the Warriors' picks since Steph was drafted. There is one whiff, taking Ekpe Udoh over available players such as Gordon Hayward or Paul George (or even Avery Bradley or Eric Bledsoe). That's a pretty good track record in identifying and developing NBA talent, even if getting that talent took a little luck and KAAAAAAHHHHNNNN.
Excellent management: Sometimes the best move is the one you don't make, like trading a package based around Klay Thompson and Harrison Barnes for Kevin Love. Sometimes you fire your coach after a 50-win season because he's toxic, and you gamble on Steve Kerr being great. You get lucky with that one. Maybe David Lee goes down and you replace him with Draymond, but then your coach has the foresight to make that stick and change the dynamic of the team. Taking a chance on Shaun Livingston. Fleecing the Bulls for the pick that became Jordan Bell. Locking Curry into a below-market extension because of his dodgy ankles, but then they stay (mostly) intact! Obviously they got lucky along the way to become the team that's now defending back-to-back champions (ie, Durant deciding to come)
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Cousins is a big and volatile personality who could destroy the team chemistry.
Draymond is the emotional leader of the team, and he's also a headcase sometimes, fighting with opposing players, fighting with refs, fighting teammates (even if it's mostly motivational fighting), and fighting with the head coach.
Now you add another highly emotional player who tends to be overly passionate on the court and in the locker room? Can Cousins change his temperament and be a role player when he's always been the dominant player on his teams? Can Draymond adjust? It will be interesting to watch.
This might be the move that destroys this team, driving KD, Klay and/or Draymond from the team in the next couple of years (because their contracts are all up in the next couple of years).
Plus, Cousins has to learn to play within the GSW style which will be new to him and contrary to his own style (he holds on to the ball more than GSW likes to hold on to the ball). He doesn't really get to play much in training camp to develop chemistry, maybe he'll play a little, but he really won't be back in good health until the season has started. AND an achilles injury is one of the hardest injuries to come back from, so he might be more limited than they hope even by next year's playoffs. He might not be much of a factor at all on this team.
It will probably work out for GSW, but I won't be shocked if it doesn't work out, or if it implodes.
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So if they team-up and become an all-star emotionally volatile duo, do they go by "Green-Boogie"? Do they use all kinds of allergy related trash talk like "Hope you took some Allegra this morning, cause Green-Boogie's gonna be all up in your face"?
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Draymond definitely because he'll actually be playing in games, and he won't be fighting Cousins, but with another giant, emotional guy backing him up on the team like Cousins, Draymond will probably even act crazier and will be more likely to lose control.
So watch out Rondo, and Tristan Thompson, and whoever else Draymond mixes it up with regularly.
(Your remark was probably a rhetorical joke, but worth a response in the end)
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I know he rubs a lot of people the wrong way, but I am all for Zlatan's shameless self-promotion. He's so over the top its hilarious. Its part of the reason I like Embiid so much (outside of being on the Sixers). I wish sports had more guys who were just that good and talked that much shit. The NFL and NHL could certainly afford to have some uber-polarizing figures like this.
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Absolutely. The NFL with Owens, Moss, Ochocinco, Steve Smith... I'm all for that, those guys made watching fun. You loved those players when they were on your team, you hated them when they weren't.
I was listening to Stephen A Smith the other day and he was making the point that the NBA has lost its bite the last decade or so. Players are just too nice to each other, and you don't have the kind of rivalries where players wanted nothing more than to bury others like the league had back in the 90s. The league needs an influx of antagonists, and right now its just full of protagonists.
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None of the stars stay with the same team, so they all play nice with each other just in case they end up on the same team. They might be a little soft too...
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I think today's NBA is heavily shaped by the reaction to the Pacers/Pistons brawl. They clamped down pretty hard on any sort of on-the-court antics after that and it became a lot easier to rack up technical fouls and get slapped with a suspension. Having said that, this hasn't stopped Draymond from kicking opponents in the 'nads, so it's not like there hasn't been any antagonism.
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Comments
Not even a max deal. Houston paid Chris Paul $6 million more like two days ago.
It is a max deal under the CBA. Houston could offer more to Chris Paul because he was resigning with the same team.
Good personal move, questionable basketball move.
But I would bet my house Kawhi Leonard is a Laker this time next year
..and Paul George
Well... don't bet your house on this one... #sauces
And the NBA will continue to make money off of single players instead if teams. Cleveland who? They have a team?
My first thought is to wonder who else will sign with or be traded to the Lakers shortly...
My second thought is next year will probably be the first NBA finals in many years without LeBron...
I, for one, am extremely excited for the Lavar Ball hot takes during this season, in which he will inevitably argue that his son(s) deserve more playing time/money/support staff than Lebron, since Lonzo is the face of the franchise.
Lonzo's gonna get traded to Brooklyn for scraps at this point
If I were his GM/Owner, I'd work a clause into his contract that penalizes him $100k for every idiotic tweet his dad puts out.
He'd be paying the Lakers to play for them by December.
Yeah, except unlike LOLUVA, Cleveland has a Natty Champ in hoops.
Someone with NBA knowledge explain why this was a good move for LeBron the Lakers don't have anyone to help him dethrone the warriors why go there other than contract ie the money?
The Lakers have so many young assets from when they were horrible at the end of the Kobe era. These young assets can be used in trades to acquire someone like Kawhi Leonard, who LeBron has made it very clear he wants to play beside.
The Spurs weren't going to trade Kawhi to be Lakers before, and they definitely won't now.
Of course it won't matter next year because Leonard is an UFA and will sign with LA anyway. But this next year they won't be anywhere close to challenging in the West playoffs.
I do think LeBron is the best ever, but there isn't enough talent on that team right now even with him to beat out the Warriors, Rockets, Spurs, Pelicans, Trail Blazers for seeding purposes over the entire season unless he keeps playing 45+ minutes a game like he had to even in the East
So the question I've got now is if Leonard can't get out till next year what's this upcoming year going to be other than LeBron dragging another team in the playoffs? Do they have a plan B say if they can't get Leonard for their assets they have? Just doesn't make sense I could've understood Houston or Philly with the players there
I suppose Cousins is still available, and that would make them interesting, but I still don't think good enough.
Can't imagine there is an actual viable Plan B though. Your assessment seems to be the general consensus, this is almost a "wasted" season if thy can't land Leonard right now.
Don't forget the Jazz, T Wolves and Thunder
It was a combination of business and basketball. He signed a four year deal, and it's not too difficult to see a path where the Lakers' young players continue to develop this year, they sign Kawhi in free agency next summer, and then go into the 2019-2020 NBA year with a core of Lebron, Kawhi, Ingram, Lonzo, Kuzma, etc. At that point, you get usable NBA vets lining up to chase a championship (not unlike David West). Looking at the cap hell the Warriors and Rockets are going to be in over the next few years, the Lakers represent an opportunity for Lebron to expand his business interests and are also positioned decently well to be the next Best Team In The West. Could be looking at Lakers Celtics in the finals again, which is good for the NBA and good for Lebron's legacy (sigh) if he manages to restore the Lakers sheen.
Agree with everything you said plus I would add more to the business side of things in another aspect.
He has multiple homes in LA already. He is/has been pursuing a actor career, so LA is perfect. Rumor is that he is still working on Space Jam 2. So I see this move as more of a business move AFTER basketball.
Not just that, but he can learn from Magic how to be extremely successful in business after his career is over.
I don't know Magic's other ventures outside of Basketball/the Lakers, but I am sure that was a part of the thinking as well. Magic has proved he can lure the best player to his team, now has to prove he can put the/one of the best teams on the court.
He owns a huge portion of ADECCO Staffing, which is a huge international recruiting firm. Here are his other investments Magic Johnson Enterprises
in which it becomes very clear that (A) it takes money to make money, (B) know your strengths and limitations and (C) portfolio diversity is important
Well, as somebody that's hated the Lakers for practically his whole life
...I do not like this move.
Yooooooooooooooooo
At best the Lakers are now the 3rd best team in the West without an additional move or 2. For someone who supposedly obsesses about his place in the pantheon of basketball, this certainly is a curious signing. I can't see the Lakers challenging the Rockets next year, let alone the Warriors. Makes you wonder if the move was more about solidifying his celebrity status than about basketball.
basketball is just his side hustle until he makes it big in hollywood
If Cousins stays on with New Orleans, the Lakers won't challenge the Pelicans next year. I'd say this moves makes the Lakers the fifth best team, at best, but probably more like seventh.
I'm on board with the thinking that they really are playing the long game, and keeping the bus warm for Kawhi Leonard next year.
I hope this isn't the case with Boogie, but not many players (especially big men) are ever the same after a torn Achilles.
Even if they get Leonard next year, is that enough to make it out of the West? I'd say no. Even if they got PG13 and Leonard this year, it still would have been a tough 3 way dogfight between the Lakers, Rockets, and Warriors.
A lot could change in another year.
I'm skeptical the Rockets will be much better in two seasons as CP3 ages.
Anthony Davis will be a free agent next summer I believe... as will Durant and nobody knows what his intentions are yet. Lots of dominoes could fall to set up the Lakers very nicely after this upcoming NBA season.
Everybody and their grandmother knows who LeBron James is.
His oldest son is starting high school in LA, so he probably wanted to stay close to family. The fact that he signed a 4 year deal confirms this in my mind.
.
Damn it now Lebron games are on a West coast time schedule. Now they all starting at like 1030pm est. I'm too old to be staying up that late watching basketball. Shit.
But good for him getting paid.
I cannot tell you how happy this makes me! that warriors/ Celtics finals is going to be lit fam!
I'm sure coach Stevens is happy to be the next team from the east to be shredded by GSW (or H'town).
it is better to play and lose in the finals than it is to not play in them at all. just ask LeBron about that one.
just ask LeBron about that one.
Best comment in this thread
Agreed (wasn't negating that). And yes, this is the best comment on the thread.
... Yeah, iono man.
*Bitter ass Orlando Magic fan*
LeBron really is the 🐐. He made people think he & Kyrie had issues, which forced him to be traded to a good team so he wouldn't be stuck in Cleveland when he left. Then, he got Gilbert to trade for Nance Jr. & Clarkson to free up cap space on the Lakers
This seems to be as much about life after basketball for him as it is about on the court. Ah well, the Process overcomes all.
Wasn't his "return" to the Cavs all about Ohio being the best place for his family and all that? That sports illustrated article was only four years ago. So in reality, what's more likely: that Ohio has changed that much in 4 years... or, he's just disingenuous.
The current Cavs are his creation as he has had a hand in almost every coaching and personnel decision. His legacy to me is now more about leaving disasters in his wake and media stunts than his otherworldly talent.
Not sure if confirmed, but there is a rumor that his son just enrolled in one of the best basketball high schools in the country (Sierra Canyon in Los Angeles). This move has as much to do with family as it does with basketball and business opportunities.
See my post below.
Do you have a link confirming Bronny is playing at Brentwood? Everything I've seen has said Sierra Canyon.
They have a house in Brentwood, no clue where he is actually playing.
And that's awesome, I really do hope they can play in the league together one day. But idk, still don't know how anyone can believe his stunts when only four years ago he said this:
How is this a stunt? Priorities can change a lot in 4 years. If you got a much better job offer somewhere else, would you take it? Most people would. Why should it be any different for an athlete? I'm not a Lebron homer, but I just don't understand the hate he gets for making the best decisions for his career and legacy.
You do realize that he could get paid more by staying, right? And sure, you can argue he's leaving for a better team but you'd be ignoring that he has his hands all over the team that was built for him.
https://www.theringer.com/nba/2018/6/5/17429314/lebron-james-cleveland-c...
I'll give you that this time was less stunt-y but If you don't think that his decision press conference and sports illustrated article weren't stunts, then idk what to tell you.
Do you really think Lebron cares about a few million in his contract at this point? The man has a billion dollar Nike contract and has stake in a lot of successful ventures. The only thing he is chasing right now is titles, and he obviously sees LA as a better opportunity to do so.
I do not believe that is the case. the lakers are not set up to win titles right now with the current structure of their team. if he was chasing rings he would have went to philly IMO for 2 reasons. 1 the east is by far the easiest route to the finals and 2. they have a pretty good supporting cast. Lebron is chasing his future for when basketball is over. He went to LA for 1 reason. marketing. his basketball contract is not where the money I coming from.
If he was only chasing rings, he would have opted in and forced a trade to HOU or BOS
My guess is that it's LA to get his kid into the right high school. The contract is for four years, so he'll be a FA when his kid goes into the draft (assuming one and done is gone). The fact that he'll sign with whomever drafts his kid is what's going to get Jr. into the league.
Dude... you were the one that said he was going to a better job offer. I state both he could earn more money in Cleveland and any argument that the Lakers have a better team fall on his shoulders too. See the ringer article for reference on how he helped "build" the Cavs.
Stop moving the goalposts, please. Your argument about chasing titles just makes him look even worse for not going to Philly, Houston, etc.
I'm not moving the goalposts. A better job offer does not strictly mean more money.
I agree. I think that a "better" job offer can be a number of things. However, money would definitely be one of those factors.
I have also stated why LA wasn't the best offer for rings either (cough, philly and houston, cough) and that any argument for leaving that includes the Cavs not being built to last can only also be contributed to the moves that Lebron helped make. See again the ringer article.
You forgot the taxes are insane in Cali, compared to anywhere else. So he lost money there as well!
No doubt, somewhere Trevor Ariza is still smiling for actually taking home way more money despite the worse offer from Houston over my poor Wiz.
I'm not even sure what we're debating at this point. I think LA was a good move (for many different reasons) and obviously you don't, so we will just agree to disagree.
I think there's a huge difference between "better job offer" and "more salary". I wouldn't want to do business or play for Dan Gilbert, either.
That's fair. If there's bad blood between Lebron and Gilbert, I get that. But he clearly didn't mind going back when they had Kyrie and he had just lost with the aging Heat. Now that the team he had a hand in building isn't good enough, he bails again. It's just a gross cycle.
It's self-serving, that's for sure.
If you do subscribe to the belief that LeBron was calling the shots behind the scenes in Cleveland this time around, some of the deals that were made over the past 12 months do appear to be downright surgical in effectively destroying the Cavs while setting himself and Kyrie up for long term success elsewhere.
Lebron is just trying to match Jordan's level in front office incompetence.
Edit: Man... downvote for a joke. Lebron fans are the worst.
He won't have to go that far, since the roof is the ceiling
His son is playing ball with Pippen's son in Brentwood. By the way the Brentwood to El Segundo (where the Lakers practice) commute is brutal!
Anyways, he is going to be a Free Agent again when his son is ready to be in the NBA. So that will be interesting, since he will probably end up playing with his son.
Is LeBron's son actually that good? I always see this "LeBron wants to play with his son" thing like it's a forgone conclusion the kid is good enough to be a one and done.
Like, it wouldn't surprise me if he was that good considering his dad, but being good enough to make an NBA roster at 19 (let alone 18) is pretty exclusive company and there's a ton of room in between to be good at basketball and not be THAT good.
Lakers will have to make another move. They are not competitive in the West yet, or even very close imo. I think this is a move driven by personal reasons. Although how amazing would a Lakers/Celtics finals be with Lebron vs Kyrie?
As a fan from an Eastern team, DING DONG THE WITCH IS DEAD
NBA basketball stinks because of player collusion. The soft cap and lopsided teams just doesn't make it fun on a regular basis. I think the commissioner needs to make it so the East is competitive.
I still find it much more entertaining than college basketball. Still plenty to play for, even for the shit teams. And this coming from a fan of a shit tean lol.
I'm Knicks fan, its been brutal since the early 2000s. I just wish the league wasn't so lopsided and had legit contenders on both side, and teams that didn't tank for picks.
That's how I'm starting to feel about college football. Seems the divide between the top 10 teams or so and therest of us widens every year.
I get what you are saying, but I think there is periodic evolution in football at the College level, that help even the playing field at times. I love following upsets every week, and the season is much shorter. NBA has a ton of games, and who really cares if the Knicks beat the Lakers once.
I'm talking championships. Yeah, upsets happen in NBA and in college ball, but the same teams win it every year. Same teams in the final 4 every year. And there are way more teams in college so the percentage of elite teams in low. I'm very cynical about the sport honestly. I doubt we see a VT championship in the next 25 years...or ever.
But there's no parity in the NBA. It's gonna be the Celtics-Warriors next year barring some catastrophic injuries. College basketball has so much more parity and excitement and March Madness is one of the greatest sporting events in the world. Just my $0.02, but I haven't been interested in the NBA since all this super team horseshit.
In my opinion, an 82 game regular season with a lengthy postseason filled with recognizable stars beats one and done era college basketball for me. Why get invested when the top end talent won't even be around in the same system after 38-40 games?
Exactly. Why get invested in any team, at any level, if the players themselves are turning the game into fantasy basketball. Will Cleveland/LeBron fans now become LA fans, or will they remain Cleveland fans? The answer is... neither. The teams are meaningless when fans are disconnected from the loyalty of their stars. Dedicated sports junkies enjoy fantasy sports, but the vast majority of fans will only buy jerseys of their home town/college stars. What do you think they'll do when casual fans realize those players don't belong to them? In the long run this will destroy player salaries too.
Just another reason to hate the Lakers.
#TeamCeltics
So, did LeBron get tired of losing to the Warriors in the NBA Finals and decide to get a head start on his summer vacation?
(This might've already been said) I think Bron's intent when signing with the Lakers, is to cement his legacy on the mountainside of the NBA Mt. Rushmore.
via GIPHY
The only way that he'll pass Jordan is to have a unique narrative, and that narrative now is to win a championship with 3 different teams. I'm not sure if he'll top Jordan's 6 championships/2 3 peats, but gotta applaud him for trying. The only concern I have is that the West is so stacked that I could honestly see the Lakers missing out on the playoffs, just because of how deep the West is. Only two teams I give a chance to replace, the T-Wolves and the Jazz.
With the (very major and unignorable) caveat that there's still a lot of offseason left:
The west runs like 10 teams deep at this point. GSW, HOU, OKC, LAL, POR, UTA, NOP, DEN, MIN, SAS all will feel like their season failed if they don't make the playoffs. I think SAS and MIN are candidates to regress. Spurs because who knows what the deal is with Kawhi, and Pop held that team together with Scotch tape and Elmer's last year. Timberwolves because Thibs is stuck in 2013 and they will need "leap" seasons from Wiggins and Towns to actually compete.
do you think deandre to dallas helps them improve any? just curious. I didn't watch them much last year but if dennis smith jr can keep improving I don't see why they cant be similar to the jazz. they don't have a bad roster.....
dirk, Harrison barnes, nerlens noel, dennis smith jr, Wesley Matthews, seth curry, dough mcdermot, dorrian finey smith, JJ Berea, deandre Jordan.
the roster on paper should be able to hover around the 6-10 seed in the west.
Dallas will be much better with Doncic and DAJ. There's no way they grab the sixth seed with that roster. (McDermott signed with Indy, Nerlens to OKC, and Seth Curry to Blazers) The west is LOADED. I just don't think that they'll win more than 32-36 games playing against the murderer's row in the west, and I don't think that roster is better than any of the teams I just listed. I don't think the minimum expectation leaguewide for the mavericks this season is to make the playoffs. I see the comparisons to Jazz roster, but it's probably more Kenny G than Miles Davis. Rick Carlisle is a top-five NBA coach and Dallas won't be actively trying to tank though, so who knows how much they improve.
Part of his narrative, is that he has made the most consecutive final appearances, ever.
A shit person on a shit team in a shit city. Hooray
leg for grouchiness
I can totally understand not liking Lebron as a basketball player, but saying he's a bad person is way off-base IMO. He married his high school sweetheart, hasn't had any known extramarital affairs, and has been very visibly in his three kids' lives. He's also never been in any legal trouble, much less even faced a one-game suspension from the league.
Obviously, as a life-long Laker fan, I have tried to defend Kobe until death up until I finally recently ceded that Lebron is better. But saying that he is a bad person is just sour grapes from the old-guard NBA contingency.
Edit: not to mention various charitable acts like raising $2.5 mil for the boys and girls club during the decision, and the estimated $42 million in scholarship money donated to 1,100 underprivileged freshmen at the University of Akron.
I can't stand him but valid points. Leg
This. I can't stand him as a player, but from all accounts I've heard, he's a pretty good dude.
To add,
The kid didn't grow up in the best of situations, became a multi-millionaire at the age of 18/19m and still somehow managed to keep his life, marriage, and finances clean. He's not my favorite NBA player, but I have tons of respect for the guy.
Boogie Cousins to Dubs on a 1 year deal for $5.3m (mid-level exception) lol
really a shocking move that I don't get, they got an all star caliber player for chump change
At this point everybody going to play for the Warriors for pennies
LOL
Pathetic on his part.
Eh, I see from his standpoint: if teams were lowballing him because of his injury just take a one year vacation with the Warriors, no pressure to rush back from injury, get your ring, huge deal when healthy next year.
That said this is the kind of thing where I borderline feel like the NBA needs to step in and not let it happen...it's blatantly obvious he is taking way less than his market value to further upset the balance of power in the league. I feel like when you get a case like this that is blatant cap circumvention the NBA should have grounds to veto it.
It's the ultimate bet on himself getting back to health.
Flip the script - how does everyone feel about David Stern blocking the Chris Paul to the Lakers trade a few years back?
If we think that the NBA should have to approve trades, should they not also have to approve player signings?
Not sure why you got a downvote there but a leg to even you out.
I agree. Not just the NBA, but you would think the players union would not be too happy with this either
How can y'all justify liking the NBA with ridiculous Superstar teams like this being built/bought?
How is it any different than any other time in NBA history? There has always been an unbalanced league...Lakers, Celtics, MJ's Bulls. At it's best, a season with more than 2-3 true contenders has always a rarity.
How can y'all justify liking the NBA with ridiculous Superstar teams like this being built/bought?
I can never understand this comment
Its easy to say this when its not your team that is the superstar team. we clam for all the 5 stars at VT but get mad that the warriors get them?
regardless I think the warriors are a fun team to watch even if they win 10 straight championships. sure parity is nice but so is good basketball. As a basketball fan I love watching good basketball and the warriors are that. they play great together. pass well. move all the time. hustle. shoot. everything you want to see in basketball, its even better to me to see a bunch of guys that do it at the highest level do it.
did we not all love the dream team winning by 50+ a game? or was that not a thing?
I don't much care either way, never been an NBA fan and probably never will be. But to your point on the dream team, people loved it because it was unusual. No one wants to see that year in and year out.
We also love watching the All-Star Game and seeing how good the game can be when you are able to link the best together. But, outside of the fans of the teams that become super, very few actually want to see this happen every night over the course of 5-10 years. The novelty wears off, and then you're just stuck with one team collecting titles while everyone else plays on a Playskool hoop. And really, the second that LBJ's game starts to tail off (and despite his superhuman abilities now, it's going to happen in the next few years) the gap between GSW and everyone else only gets that much worse.
There are people that watch the all-star game in any professional sport?
It's one thing when its a national team for the Olympics that forms a "Dream Team". NBA used to be more balanced and now that is completely lopsided, the normal fan tunes it out. I can't tell you that last time I legitimately had interest in watching a regular season NBA game. The lack of true competition throughout the league, and the number of teams tanking for lotto ball is terrible. It's a player driven league, not a team driven league.
I think the NBA is nearing a crisis point where these super teams are really kind of taking the fun and intrigue out of the league. If you're going to devote as much time and effort into making sure teams don't tank to game the draft, it might be time to address players gaming the "cap" to effectively buy a ring. Going into next season, 7/8 of the league from the start has legitimately no shot at the Finals, and there isn't a team that can legitimately match up with GSW. Casual fans are going to eventually go elsewhere.
I just don't see how the league can regulate that without nuking free agency as we know it. The whole idea of the salary cap and bird rights in the NBA is predicated on the assumption that players will generally aim for the biggest payday. It's boogie's prerogative to take less than his media-perceived value... But the union will be less happy for him than any franchise owners will
But now he will have to face a lot of Joggernauts in the regular season too!
Oh ffs. I kinda wish my team was tanking now. These next couple years are a forgone conclusion.
For the NBA to get more parity and out of this superteam mode they should definitely change two things
- Institute a hard cap
- get rid of Max contract caps and let them make as much as they can
It would keep teams from doing the luxury tax loopholes and the big time players would now be turning down $50Mish a year to be by themselves vs making $15Mish to be a part of a superteam.
I don't think the player's union would let that happen.
That wouldn't change what's happened the last two days. LeBron took less money to go to the Lakers and Cousins wasn't going to get a long term deal with his injury concerns, so he went to the best place for him to rehab the first few months of the season. There's no expectations for him at Golden State...he's just icing on their cake.
I don't see how this disproves the claim about the max contracts. When you can only make so much to begin with, why wouldn't you take a little less money to be on a contender (honestly i can't even find an article to prove this claim is true, hes the highest paid player in the league with his new contract)? I have to think it would be harder to reject if Lebron is taking $30-$40 million less a year rather than the few million we are potentially talking about here.
I will agree that the Warriors team is a bit of a strange case. They managed to draft Klay Thompson, Curry and Green, so they managed to assemble the core at a ridiculously good value (given where in the draft they were taken). Cousins is in that perfect storm of situations where he probably can't get the offer he wants. So why not take a short term contract to recover from injury, and get a ring in the process. The warriors hit the perfect storm of tremedous draft luck and favorable conditions to bring on great players at bargain value.
But superteams like the warriors and their predecessors (Heat, Celtics) have gotten old. Feels like it takes out any intrigue in the sport before it starts. At least NCAA Basketball has their one-off tourney that always has a fair amount of chaos in it.
On the surface it doesn't seem like the Lakers are Lebron's best chance to contend, but they are also set up nicely for 2019 free agency. Keep that in mind.
And its reasonable to expect improvement from Ingram, Ball, Kuzma, and Hart. All the other contracts are 1 year deals that come off the books next year.
Cousins to GSW is a confluence of several events that is more of an aberration IMO:
People said the same thing (its an aberration) after Durant signed with the Warriors. We're in an era where the best players are just teaming up and creating these super powerful teams that a salary cap was supposed to prevent. Small market teams out there have no shot to compete in this league anymore. Yeah, things are happy and dandy because the fans are showing up to watch these games, but eventually you're going to see fan interest from the have nots erode. Who wants to show up to watch a Hornets-Heat game next year, and those 2 teams very well could be in the playoffs.
The short term health of the NBA is very strong, but I do worry about the league long-term.
It absolutely was. The rejection of the cap-smoothing scenarios helped it happen.
Plus, Golden State had already signed Curry, Thompson & Green to extensions under the previous salary structure (and Curry's was below his max value because it had been signed at a time when he couldn't stay healthy).
So yes, it was again another confluence of events that created the perfect storm.
And I think it's an overreaction to worry about the league's long-term health. The NBA does a better job of marketing its star players than any other league and it looks like the next generation is well on their way to establishing themselves. Embiid & Simmons, Tatum & Brown, Donovan Mitchell, Giannis, etc. are all 24 or younger. The strength of the league will be determined by its stars, not by the weakest markets (who will still be able to draw when superstars come to town).
Just some added perspective of how ridiculous the moves the Warriors have made:
They went 73-9 in 2016, the most wins ever by a team in the regular season.
After losing to Lebron's Cavs in what is probably the greatest finals of all time after being up 3-1 they:
1. Replaced Harrison Barnes with Kevin Durant.
the next [next] season
2. Replaced Javale McGee with Boogie Cousins.
They could field a starting 5 that has:
-2 recent MVP's
-All 5 players have made an All-NBA team
-All 5 players are multiple (or every single season) all-stars.
Never been anything like this, there is no comparison.
At this point, it's not about whether "they made the smart moves given the circumstances the league operates under" it's about how they have created a situation where there is no room for competition.
One of my favorite people currently with ESPN, Mina Kimes said it best.
To be fair, Durant and Boogie were two offseasons apart, not consecutive. But your point still stands. I think there's a confluence of circumstances surrounding Boogie, the single biggest being that he tore his Achilles and he's a 270 pounds, 6'11" man.
It's not just that the league operates under a certain set of rules, it's that the NBA is a (super)star-driven league, and when players in this age range start hearing about how the greats always win, it's easy for them to only want to win, even if it means taking a pay cut to enable the best possible roster construction (e.g. Durant taking a lil less so the Warriors could resign Iguodala last year). And because the NBA is a player-driven league, free agency and the mere specter of free agency gives the players tremendous leverage in forcing movement.
Maybe the system is broken, but I wouldn't pin the blame entirely on the players or entirely on the owners. The next round of CBA negotiations is gonna be a nightmare though.
I think the NFL is 20 years behind the NBA in this regard. The NBA went through the jordan era with the owners holding all the power...their first championship I think Jordan and Pippen were making like 2 million dollars per year..I also think that the NFL needs a more powerful players union, especially considering all the health risks with playing the game..
Fully guaranteed contracts would be a place to start. Everyone comparing the hard cap in the NFL to the luxury tax in the NBA wrt to parity and team building needs to take a step back and realize that the difference in how contracts are/aren't guaranteed is the single biggest driving factor there. The Thunder are paying ~$316m in salaries + tax payments because they can't just cut Carmelo Anthony and his $27.9m salary (and the tax implications associated with it). The closest mechanism in place (the stretch provision) would save the Thunder a whopping $91m in luxury taxes this year, but they would still have to pay the salary over the next three years.
Warriors not losing a game this year
And that's where we are with the league right now. Its not who is going to win the title, that is a foregone conclusion for probably at least the next 2 seasons... Its about how many games are the Warriors going to lose. And with as stacked as the West is compared to the East, the Warriors very well could roll through the playoffs undefeated the way their team is built.
Looking at historical odds, here are the preseason NBA Finals picks according to Vegas (and actuals)
2017-18: GSW over CLE (GSW over CLE)
2016-17: CLE over GSW (GSW over CLE)
2015-16: CLE over GSW (CLE over GSW)
2014-15: CLE over SAS (GSW over CLE)
2013-14: MIA over OKC (SAS over MIA)
2012-13: MIA over LAL (MIA over SAS)
2011-12: MIA over LAL (MIA over OKC)
2010-11: MIA over LAL (DAL over MIA)
2009-10: LAL over CLE (LAL over BOS)
2008-09: LAL over BOS (LAL over ORL)
2007-08: SAS over BOS (BOS over LAL)
2006-07: DAL over MIA (SAS over CLE)
2005-06: SAS over MIA (MIA over DAL)
So in the last 13 years, the pre-season favorite has won six times. Out of the other seven, the winner was picked as a conference champ three times. The others were:
GSW in '15 (8th best odds in the preseason)
SAS in '14 (4th best odds)
DAL in '11 (7th best odds)
SAS in '07 (2nd best odds)
Really, the only "shocker" teams have been the Warriors first title and Dirk's ring. So why are people now upset that the league isn't competitive? When has it ever been competitive?
To reinforce this, the last 20 titles have been split between 7 franchises: Spurs (5), Lakers (5), Heat (3), Warriors (3), Mavericks, Pistons, Celtics, Cavaliers (1 each). If you want to extend it back another 15 years to 1984, you add the Bulls (6) and Rockets (2), and some more for the Lakers (3), Pistons (2) and Celtics (2).
The way to win in the NBA isn't to try and build for a title, it's to try and build a dynasty.
And outside of intentionally tanking to collect assets, how does any team have any realistic path to accomplish that? And I mean multiple assets, because teams with only 1 or 2 guys are now seeing those players leave to these super teams in FA, leaving the original team perennially stuck in the mud.
To further muddy the waters, the NBA stepped in to force Hinkie out of Philly out of concern for the competitive balance of the league, only to now see this happen. And now we have a league that is even more unbalanced competitively than it was during that time.
It's the same path as it always has been...either have a top notch front office or tank for draft picks. It's like that in every sport, not just the NBA.
Star players leaving for better teams in chase of a ring has happened for decades.
Wilt to the Lakers
Earl the Pearl to the Knicks
Kareem to the Lakers
Walton to the Celtics
Moses Malone to the Sixers
Barkley to Phoenix and then to the Rockets
Drexler to Houston
Shaq to the Lakers then the Heat
Karl Malone & Gary Payton to the Lakers
KG to the Celtics
Dwight Howard to the Lakers
Steve Nash to the Lakers
LeBron & Bosh to the Heat
Ray Allen to the Heat
All of these weren't happenstance. They all either demanded a trade to that specific destination or signed as a FA in order to win rings. Nothing that's happening now is new.
Quite a few of the examples you have here were players actually being traded to a team, not a star player bolting for a better situation.
Wilt and Kareem were traded.
Moses Malone to the Sixers was a trade.
Barkley to Phoenix was a trade
KG was traded to the Celtics
I get your point but a lot of the examples you just gave were not actually guys leaving a team to chase a ring. They were dealt to said teams
Wilt demanded the Sixers trade him to the Lakers or he'd leave and go to the ABA.
Kareem demanded out of Milwaukee after a few disappointing season and gave the team a small list of destinations to trade him to or he'd sit out the season. L.A. was the one who they made the deal with because they met Kareem's conditions...on the west coast & a chance to get a ring.
Moses was a free agent and signed the offer sheet from Philly to join Dr. J and the champs. Back then, the prior team had a chance to match any offer, so Houston matched with the intention to trade him and get something in return.
Barkley didn't think the Sixers were going to win again, so he forced the trade to Phoenix in search of a ring.
KG is probably not the best example because he has always said he would have been happy finishing his career in Minnesota, but since they were going young and didn't want to extend him, he was going to be traded. He picked Boston because of Pierce and Allen, so he was going to a great situation, but unlike the ones above, didn't forced his team's hand by demanding a trade to a specific contender.
The only real way to build a dynasty involves a lot of luck, either through the lottery (hello, Spurs), draft (hitting on a late pick, having the team in front of you draft the bust), other teams' ineptitude (see Celtics/Nets trade, totally mismanaging a team around a (super)star that drives them to free agency), etc. Tanking as a route to a #1 pick is sorta nerfed now with draft lottery reform, but it's still a viable route to strip down the team to collect draft assets, a lot like Atlanta is currently doing and Charlotte ought to be if the goal is one or multiple championships.
Look at how the Warriors did it, as an example: excellent drafting coupled with excellent player development, and excellent management.
Excellent Drafting/Development: Curry was on the board because David Kahn drafted Jonny Flynn and Ricky Rubio with back to back picks. Everybody passed on Draymond. Klay was drafted directly after Jimmer Fredette. More recent picks like Pat McCaw and Jordan Bell were shrewd picks that added contributing pieces to the bench. Harrison Barnes was a solid player for them and was a part of the OG Lineup of Death. Look at the Warriors' picks since Steph was drafted. There is one whiff, taking Ekpe Udoh over available players such as Gordon Hayward or Paul George (or even Avery Bradley or Eric Bledsoe). That's a pretty good track record in identifying and developing NBA talent, even if getting that talent took a little luck and KAAAAAAHHHHNNNN.
Excellent management: Sometimes the best move is the one you don't make, like trading a package based around Klay Thompson and Harrison Barnes for Kevin Love. Sometimes you fire your coach after a 50-win season because he's toxic, and you gamble on Steve Kerr being great. You get lucky with that one. Maybe David Lee goes down and you replace him with Draymond, but then your coach has the foresight to make that stick and change the dynamic of the team. Taking a chance on Shaun Livingston. Fleecing the Bulls for the pick that became Jordan Bell. Locking Curry into a below-market extension because of his dodgy ankles, but then they stay (mostly) intact! Obviously they got lucky along the way to become the team that's now defending back-to-back champions (ie, Durant deciding to come)
Anyone ever catch the bastard who spray painted his front gate?
Yeah, it was Popovich...
Counterpoint:
Cousins is a big and volatile personality who could destroy the team chemistry.
Draymond is the emotional leader of the team, and he's also a headcase sometimes, fighting with opposing players, fighting with refs, fighting teammates (even if it's mostly motivational fighting), and fighting with the head coach.
Now you add another highly emotional player who tends to be overly passionate on the court and in the locker room? Can Cousins change his temperament and be a role player when he's always been the dominant player on his teams? Can Draymond adjust? It will be interesting to watch.
This might be the move that destroys this team, driving KD, Klay and/or Draymond from the team in the next couple of years (because their contracts are all up in the next couple of years).
Plus, Cousins has to learn to play within the GSW style which will be new to him and contrary to his own style (he holds on to the ball more than GSW likes to hold on to the ball). He doesn't really get to play much in training camp to develop chemistry, maybe he'll play a little, but he really won't be back in good health until the season has started. AND an achilles injury is one of the hardest injuries to come back from, so he might be more limited than they hope even by next year's playoffs. He might not be much of a factor at all on this team.
It will probably work out for GSW, but I won't be shocked if it doesn't work out, or if it implodes.
who throws the first punch, Boogie or Draymond??
So if they team-up and become an all-star emotionally volatile duo, do they go by "Green-Boogie"? Do they use all kinds of allergy related trash talk like "Hope you took some Allegra this morning, cause Green-Boogie's gonna be all up in your face"?
You get credit for that when they start using it on Sports Center.
wow I remember sportscenter!
Draymond definitely because he'll actually be playing in games, and he won't be fighting Cousins, but with another giant, emotional guy backing him up on the team like Cousins, Draymond will probably even act crazier and will be more likely to lose control.
So watch out Rondo, and Tristan Thompson, and whoever else Draymond mixes it up with regularly.
(Your remark was probably a rhetorical joke, but worth a response in the end)
I know he rubs a lot of people the wrong way, but I am all for Zlatan's shameless self-promotion. He's so over the top its hilarious. Its part of the reason I like Embiid so much (outside of being on the Sixers). I wish sports had more guys who were just that good and talked that much shit. The NFL and NHL could certainly afford to have some uber-polarizing figures like this.
Richard Sherman, Terrell Owens types?
Absolutely. The NFL with Owens, Moss, Ochocinco, Steve Smith... I'm all for that, those guys made watching fun. You loved those players when they were on your team, you hated them when they weren't.
I was listening to Stephen A Smith the other day and he was making the point that the NBA has lost its bite the last decade or so. Players are just too nice to each other, and you don't have the kind of rivalries where players wanted nothing more than to bury others like the league had back in the 90s. The league needs an influx of antagonists, and right now its just full of protagonists.
None of the stars stay with the same team, so they all play nice with each other just in case they end up on the same team. They might be a little soft too...
Very soft. Look at play today versus 20 years ago.
I think today's NBA is heavily shaped by the reaction to the Pacers/Pistons brawl. They clamped down pretty hard on any sort of on-the-court antics after that and it became a lot easier to rack up technical fouls and get slapped with a suspension. Having said that, this hasn't stopped Draymond from kicking opponents in the 'nads, so it's not like there hasn't been any antagonism.