I am curious to gauge if the JJ haters will back off a bit if we beat FSU. FSU has been a team that under HCFB, we struggled with until the tail end of the 2000s. Even if they are down, its a huge accomplishment to beat them.
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This thread can only go well.
I will say I think JJ makes it through the season barring injury, but 2019 is going to be wide open unless we at least win the Coastal on JJ's arm.
How are we suppose to know.... What if VT wins 21-14 and all three TD's by the Hokies are pick 6's? And JJ plays poorly yet out defense yields us to victory?
My example is kinda a hyperbole, but this is a silly question as so many factors go into a game to decide a winner.
Edit: For the record, I am not a "hater" of JJ but I am one of the ones who can't get excited at all with him starting at QB after what I saw at the end of last year. I hope he balls out and proves me wrong.
Hard to say. Remember Fuente saying that every game is like a 3 hour long stomach ache? Well I think this year will be more of the same. Just too many questions on this team, which is why I think even more JJ will start all season. He is a known quantity, when so much of the rest of the team is unknown.
Buzz has mostly been ahead of schedule in his rebuild. Fuente, while not necessarily in a rebuild, is building his version of Hokie Football, and I think if you asked him and got an honest answer, he would say he is behind schedule. I'm not calling him out; I just think that is how the chips have fallen. Jerod leaving early, a few guys leaving the program early or being dismissed from the team, a few missed plays, calls, etc.
When Fuente came on board, many of us had 2018 and 2019 pegged as "the season" where something special could happen. At this point, not so sure. But I'll still be rooting hard and hoping for 15-0
I think we had higher expectations for JJ than what we got last year and after the spring game performance, I think that we're cautiously optimistic. He has more and better weapons around him this year(Hazelton, Grimsley, and I think Patterson steps up in a big way) Last year it was pretty much Cam Phillips and Savoy..
not a JJ hater but beating FSU wont change anyones mind. itll be the equivalent to beating WVU in week 1. it wont matter in week 3.
I agree to an extent. I think beating a (more than likely) higher ranked team in FSU while playing in Doak (not a neutral field) would mean a little more... Most importantly, it would be an ACC conference win too.
to me FSU is no better than what WVU was coming in there name just rings the bell a little louder. theyre coming off a 6-6 with just as many unknowns as us. I agree with your statements all of which are true but to critics of Jackson that wont hold any weight if he plays a bad game in a few weeks. QB is a week to week just like head coach. Russell Wilson had a 6 pick game and seahawks fans were ready to play Tavares Jackson.
For those of you not familiar with Virginia Tech media coverage, I offer you the following future media narratives for the day after Labor Day:
VT beats FSU soundly: "Florida State just has not jelled yet under Willie Taggart."
VT eeks out a win over FSU: "Florida State is making great strides and will soon be challenging Clemson."
FSU eeks out a win over VT: "Florida State is back!"
FSU beats VT soundly: "Florida State should be ranked in the top 5!"
Hokie fan card checks out.
FSU eeks out a win over VT: "Florida State should be ranked in the top 5!"
FSU beats VT soundly: "FSU ready to take on Alabama in the Natty!"
FTFY
I think you're confusing FSU fans with the media. The media will be restrained, compared to FSU fans.
Perhaps. They aren't with respect to Miami.
The idea that anyone who isn't blindly positive about JJ is a "JJ hater" is crazy to me. Wanting more from JJ or whoever plays the position doesn't mean you are a "hater" or want the team to fail. It is all about the facts of what makes up a talented QB - and JJ is inherently limited in many areas (size, speed, athletic ability, arm strength, field vision, feel for the pocket, etc.)
People hated Sean Glennon with a passion (I was one of them) and I can honestly say that Glennon is as good or a better QB with more overall tools than JJ (and that hurts to say out loud).
Come on dude. The guy is a Sophomore who already had a better Freshman year then Glennon's Senior year. As far as personal performance goes.
Fuente's system is built for numbers. There isn't even a comparison here. Glennon handed the ball off all day and had NFL receivers (Royal, Morgan, Clowney, etc.) who never caught for 1,000 yards because of the system.
Then why are you saying he had more overall tools then Jackson? If he "just handed the ball off." No way Glennon would be better in this system then JJ.
And because of the guy dishing out the ball to them.
Glennon was a better QB than Grant Noel and Brendan Motley, and that's about it. I would take pretty much anyone else we've had at the position since before Vick. Numbers aside, not only does JJ look like a better passer than Glennon did, but while he's about average in terms of mobility he's far ahead of Glennon in that respect.
go back and look at motleys performance when brewer got hurt and compare them to JJs (not #s but performance) down the stretch. I don't think youll say that. the things about JJ is he is a freshman he has a chance to really improve and I hope he is. motley had 3 OCs in 4 years? and an offense built for a pro style QB when he did see the field. cards were not stacked in mots favor.
Your double standard is showing.
"Glennon is as good or a better QB with more overall tools than JJ"
You may want to put down the crack pipe after that statement
I always wanted Michael Vick to tuck away the football when he scrambled. Does that mean I'm a Michael Vick hater? ;^)
Yea, that fumble early in the 4th qtr in the NC game was due to that bread carrying technique in the above picture...
I don't know what you're talking about. They never played the 4th quarter, for some unknown reason.
The quote says "doesn't" - so no you would not be a hater. But nice burn?
Long live Scar.
Ummm.. you must mean Mike Glennon (who was the better of the brothers). We took Sean so we could have Eddie Royal. It was a package deal.
But to say that Sean is just as good or better than JJ is a statement I disagree with. JJ is far better than Sean ever was.
Don't hate the playa. Hate the man responsible for giving Glennon the all too real fear that he was getting blindsided if he took more than a 2 step drop.
I fell into the LT3 "hater" category. Doesn't matter how much you admire the man, offer a bit of legitimate criticism and the "hater" tag is applied with gusto.
I was a big fan of JJ before he became starter. I still am, but last year had some really painful moments, not all of them his fault, and yes, he was apparently injured which never helps.
I hope he settles in with his upgraded receiving corps and O-line, and turns into the second coming of Bryan Randall. I think the potential is there.
But if he falls flat on his face, I imagine I'll once again join the group of "hater" just for pointing out flaws in his game.
Well, he was a freshman....
... Am I missing something? How exactly have we upgraded at either of those groups? Losing Cam is a big hit. Don't discount that. And I'm not certain we'll be significantly better up front with some of the shuffling that has to take place due to some departures.
I haven't bought into the idea that anyone who is justifiably critical of a certain player is suddenly labeled as a "hater". I also don't believe that even-keeled defenders of a player who takes more criticism than is warrented should necessarily be labeled as "apologists" (this also applies to coaches)
That said, I think JJ had a typically freshman type of year in his freshman year (go figure). There are certainly ample opportunities for him to improve his game but there were also some bright spots which were encouraging indicators of what he could potentially do with more work and experience.
I'm not of the opinion that he should be benched in favor of Hooker or QP (or anyone else, for that matter) at the first sign of trouble. Similarly, if he fails to show marked improvement through the first quarter of the season some real consideration may need to be made as to how to proceed with the team's best interest in mind.
I trust the coaches to put whichever player they believe provides the team the best chance to win on the field. After all, their jobs kind of depend on it.
The phenomenon of the shiny new recruit (or backup qb) being the most popular player on the team is absolutely fascinating to me. "Everyone and their brother" will be huge QP or Hooker fans the instant JJ throws his first INT and they won't shut up about them until they actually throw their first INT. At that point the new recruit (or backup) will become the savior and the coaches are absolute idiots for not playing them. The cycle repeats itself over and over and we never learn.
Does anyone remember when JJ was that savior? And are you aware that in all likelihood QP and/or Hooker will become the villains who need to be benched in favor of the younger, more exciting prospect?
I say all that to say this: Debating which QB should start is silly and foolhardy. Trust the coaches and support the players through thick and thin. Sure it's fine to be excited about new faces but before declaring that one guy is a better fit for reason x, y, or z consider that none of the posters on here truly know what the fuck they're taking about. You and me included. (P.S. Krak_t, the latter parts of this comment are not in any way directed at you. I just happened to find myself on this high horse in the middle of responding to your post and just went with it. Nothing personal, I promise)
I think we all need to give JJ a pass on his performance last year to some respect. I think there were a number of factors involved in his performance down the stretch, including (1) being a freshman with limited experience under his belt; (2) nagging injuries; and (3) a lack of experienced weapons around him down the stretch, including Phillips, who for the most part was absent for about the last 8-9 games as he played ineffectively with the sports hernia injury. I personally think JJ should have better weapons around him at all the skill positions (RB, TE, & WR) than he had most of last year, if not only for those underclassmen having an extra year of experience under their belts, plus the addition of Hazelton at WR should be a huge boost if he plays up to his potential/credentials.
I think when things started to unravel a bit by mid-season, JJ felt like he had to right the ship on his own, and probably put alot of undue pressure on himself to do so. I'm hopeful we'll see better things from JJ and the offense this year.
Just saw a quote on VT football twitter regarding why Fuente chose to bring Josh to ACC media days and he said bringing your starting quarterback just made sense. We have our answers, boys.
I'll believe it when I see it. Fuente is unpredictable, Wouldn't be surprised if somehow QP was our stater at FSU. lets see how it'll play out in practice and have the best preforming QB play.
yeah fuente has some belichick type trools up his sleeve
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As someone who is unsure how much JJ will improve this year, I will absolutely be pleased if we beat FSU and he plays well. Don't make me laugh FBG. In fact, now that I've gone back and looked at the first sentence of my post here, this seems like a prerequisite for being a Hokie fan at all. What were you getting at with this question?
I like JJ. The issue I have is with his limitations. He doesn't excel at any one thing. He isn't going to get much faster than he already is. His arm isn't great. His accuracy isn't great. And he doesn't have a durable frame. He did rack up some good stats against lesser competition and a lot of people have said he was playing injured when we played better teams but I never saw anything that made me say "wow" he's going to be special. That's the issue I see. I just don't see any traits that make me think he can elevate the team.
With all that being said, it's just my opinion and gut feeling so no need to post charts and graphs to defend him.
Just to put that in perspective the only freshman that Excel at anything are the dual threats that Excel at running. It takes a while to develop those other tools to a high level in college. Everybody just gets jammed up over his athleticism because we have had a number of elite athletes play QB.
I don't feel jammed up about his lack of athleticism for that reason. I also understand that his accuracy and decision should improve over time. That's not exactly what I'm talking about. I'm simply talking about the eye test. How I feel he will look in the future based on what he showed last year. My gut says that he's a quarterback with a low ceiling.
I know it was his first year. I understand that he was missing a Ford and Bucky. I really get all the arguments for him.
I will echo what everyone says who shares my sentiment, I hope he proves me wrong and explodes this year. I just don't see it happening.
Oh gotcha. I think the eye test is nonsense.
This ^^^^^^^^. If JJ comes at has great numbers against ALL teams then for some people he will fail the eye test.
Fuente is not O'Cainspring. Fuente loves game managers. That's what "predictable outcomes" means. A perfect example was his reaction to JJ's pass that was tipped by Phillips and caught by Peoples for a touchdown. In the Beamer era everyone, including the coaches, would have been happy with that. Fuente was displeased and would have preferred JJ throw it away. Anyone expecting Fuente to recruit a Lamar Jackson is totally not understanding him. I can't even say that Fuente would have recruited a Michael Vick. He may have recruited a Tyrod Taylor. Fuente has his way of running the offense and if you don't comply with it, regardless of "how dynamic" you are, you are not playing. McMillian and McKenzie learned that the hard way. That's not to say there weren't good backs. There's ample evidence they were but they play in HIS offense and that means they have to play by HIS rules. Fuente will play backs that block well over backs that run well.
For the most part I am on board with Fuente and Cornelson after watching them for two seasons. There were definitely times I greatly questioned their philosophy and decision making. I will never be a fanboy so I will always have some skepticism. It should speak volumes that Fuente referred to JJ as his starting QB. Could that change? Maybe, but it's not likely. JJ would have to lose the job vs. someone else winning it. That brings me to the point of a contradiction I tend to see in lots of comments. There are people who "trust in Fuente" but expect Beamer Era QBs. If you "trust in Fuente" then you'll understand there are going to be more JJ's than MV7s. That is because JJ is generally a good decision maker and he's "good enough" at everything else.
If I were to try to quantify this I would say that if your "dynamic play skills" are a 10 and your decision making is a 6 you're not starting of a guy who's decision making is a 9 and who's dynamic play skills are a 5. Fuente seems to value what's between the QBs ears more than his physical play. You don't have to trust me, trust his words. His complaints about JJ is that he wants him to be "more in love with the process". He never said, "I wish JJ could rip off a 90 yard, ankle breaking TD run" or "It would have been better if he could have completed a 70 yard pass". It's all about understanding the system and executing it well. JJ does that better than anyone else as of now.
Ideally JJ will have a great year and start next year (I do not expect him to get drafted even if he's a four year starter). In 2019 I would expect that our receivers and TE will be incredibly experienced. JJ will be a third year starter and I think you will see plenty of gams won by the second quarter. At that time I would expect the backup QBs to start getting SIGNIFICANT playing time. That means for 2020 you will have a true competition between Patterson and Jackson and potentially have Patterson starting. The idea being Patterson's 2020 start will not be his first game action. I am assuming Patterson is going to redshirt this year and probably will not see the field even with the four game redshirt rule. Fuentes does not like throwing QBs into action too early.
Fuentes does not like throwing QBs into action too early.
Hold on, now. Didn't Fuente play Paxton Lynch his freshmen year at Memphis over an incumbent starter? So, not sure when you mean by "too early", unless perhaps you mean as a true freshman. I wouldn't have a problem with Fuente redshirting QP his freshmen year, but by year 2, QP should be able to compete with Jackson for playing time, and might end up getting the Paxton Lynch treatment (starting over the incumbent).
Paxton Lynch was not a true a Freshman. The incumbent starter went 4-8 in 2012. He was also a Transfer from Texas Tech saw was not part of the system. Karam's junior stats were 176/274 1895 yds 14 TDS, 3 INTs. Paxton Lynch didn't fair much better his first year as a starter. In fact, JJ was WAY better. Memphis went 3-9 that season. Paxton's passing numbers were 203/349 2056 yds 9 TDS, 10 INTs. I suppose in this case maybe letting him sit another year may have been better. Fuente had the leeway to do this being that he was only in year 2 of a major rebuild. I don't think he risks anything at VT to start a higher upside QB a year earlier. That ship has sailed. The expectations are set and they are high. You don't bench a guy that's doing the job for a guy with a "higher ceiling" when that guy could get more experience and hit the ground running the next year. If JJ gives you a shot a 9-3 and QP give you a shot at 8-4 you still start JJ and get QP in the game on a regular basis. Fuente is now in the business of winning not rebuilding.
You may not be talking to me but just so my opinion is clear, I'm not being critical of Fuente or saying that someone else should start. I'm simply stating how I feel about JJ on the field. I feel very good about leaving these decisions in the coaches hands. This is more about wishing we did have someone who Fuente trusted and who has a higher ceiling.
The diatribe was not directed at you. Nice name BTW (you get a leg).
More perspective: Josh Jackson is second in pass efficiency for freshman, fourth for completion percentage for freshman, and third in yards per attempt for freshman.
He looked good against Delaware and East Carolina. He looked lost against Clemson, Miami and OSU. I think he doesn't have the tools to compete at the highest level of competition. It didn't feel like he improved from WVU to OSU in any meaningful way.
I know there were issues that were out of his hands. I get it. I understand Fuente values decision making. That has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. If JJ is the best we can put on the field then it is what it is. I hope more than anyone that he elevates his game this season.
I know he had some good stats last year in Fuente's scheme and against that early competition. But I also hope greatly that Hooker, Patterson or someone else breaks out and the light comes on for the mental aspect (because those guys seem like they have much higher ceilings).
I said this before, but this thing that he looked bad against good comp makes no sense. Show me anyone who doesnt have less success vs the good than the bad teams. lol thats why their are good and bad teams.
I don't have the expectation that he is going to go out as a red shirt freshman and blow the doors off of a Clemson. That isn't what I'm saying and that isn't my expectation.
Here is what I am saying: he looks physically outmatched against better competition. He doesn't seem to possess great arm strength, any speed, innate accuracy past about 15 yards or so. So when we go up against teams that have better natural athletes, he stands out to me as rather unathletic and ungifted.
Can he work on things? Yes. Can he get better? Yes. Is he a dumpster fire? Absolutely not.
There are plenty of situations where Tech or another team loses a game starting a young qback who didn't look great but they showed me somethi mg that made me think "wow they have the potential to really elevate the team". I have not watched JJ once in a game and thought that.
I simply wish we had a qb with a higher ceiling ready to start. That's it. If you disagree that's fine. I think JJ is a great guy and I think he tries hard. If you don't think he is limited then so be it.
I just don't understand all of this.
If you are a JJ apologist, you get accused of blindly supporting him.
If you are critical of JJ, in any way, you are a hater.
Welcome to the new TSL everyone!
I think that part of the problem is that we have had offenses for years that were so bland, we would be as good or bad as the playmaker behind center. Fuente doesn't seem to need that as much. Sure the qb is the center point, but the ball will be distributed all around the field. If JJ can improve his arm at a rate of any other college qb, he is going to be pretty darn good. If somebody can take his job, fine, then they are even better.
Yeah, I'm not really worried about QB performance under Fuente. He does a great job of getting guys who handle his system.
It's almist like QB is critically important in this system to distribute the ball, but who it is is remarkably unimportant. I expect JJ will start for 3 more years and destroy the VT QB records, but the guy who said he lacked some physical skills of Sean Glennon isn't wrong.