So listening to Allegreta's post-game interviews, it sounded like a literal riot was going on in the locker room; like, COMPLETELY noticeable. The Hill fighting stuff has been confirmed at this point? I heard he was saying some really inappropriate stuff was said to one of the coaches. Anybody know for certain what this is or if it happened?
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A lot of talk on 247 and other pay sites that can't be brought over here yet
What's the issue w/ bringing info from paysites? Legal?
Is that the new Flyers mascot in your profile pic?
So awful. I'm a Flyers fan and it is a disgrace.
I'm not a Flyers fan but considering becoming one because of it
Lifelong Flyers fan and I absolutely love it... because everyone else hates it. No one likes us, we don't care!
I'm a Flyers fan and I love it
I have to admit....I may have overreacted. My first thought was "oh, what the f...". If he is like the Philly Phonetic, then this could turn out to be really funny.
I'm a lifelong Caps fan and while I still hate the Flyers, that new mascot is f'ing brilliant.
HE HAS GOOGLY EYES?! I saw pictures over the weekend but hadn't seen a gif/vid yet. Oh man I love this so much. I've been trying to get myself to watch hockey for a few years now and this might do it for me. I'm a Flyers fan, y'all.
I'm telling you, the googly eyes push it so far over the top its incredible.
I feel like the photos don't really do him justice. I will say that whoever is in that suit does a good job of bringing the character out in his movements.
I can't embed from twitter (work computer) but apparently they didn't give him skates last night and had him shooting the t-shirt cannon from the ice. I know nick posted it earlier on the other thread, but dammit the force of the gun knocked Gritty on his ass after every shot. Its hilarious.
#twinsies
DAMN.... a game we wore Orange and won, that's rare....
I love Gritty, looks like an offspring of one of the Broad Street Bullies. Long hair, big beard, and no teeth, with an attitude if not caring sign me up as a Gritty fan.
This is Philly Phanatic level awesome
and I hate the Phillies (Go Braves)
(Courtesy of a great article about pitching to Acuna at Talking Chop)
This was me on Saturday at 3:35pm when they clinched the East:
This was me on Saturday at about 7:30pm:
"Acuna Matata" - Can't wait to go to ATL for the Playoffs in the Stadium
I have been looking at flights and tickets all day today... What sucks is that we won't know probably until very end of season with Dodgers only .5 games behind them for #2 playoff slot.
Praying to god that they get #2 slot so they their first two games are Thursday & Friday. Already took those two days off from work.
I cant stop watching this GIF of the Flyers mascot. This is the most savage mascot in history.
via GIPHY
Colton Orr and Tie Domi...two dudes that were exceptionally skilled at hurting other dudes.
Fridge was no slouch in that department either, though guessing this was near the end of his career / early-ish in Orr's.
True that...
I liked the Flyers mascot before Gritty better.
Kind of reminds me of Ole Miss going with Tony the Landshark.
Yup.
Its so absurd that I love it
This thing is great
looks like Chewbacca slammed about 10 red bulls and put on a flyers jersey for some reason
Frowned upon. Its how EGW and other insiders earn a living so every tidbit people bring over here hurts them. The other issue is posting sensitive information on a public forum
It'll never come out of the coaches' mouth; we'll somehow just have to move on from this. Let's hope our 2-3 Deep shows up
Do you have a link to the AA postgame interview?
Trying to find links to things like that on our website is literally like trying to find a dog turd in a yard that was just aerated.
I have heard from 2 sources outside of this site that there was a confrontation between Hill and the S&C staff in some capacity. From what I heard it was verbal.
Sources told me that Hilgart was lighting into the players after the game. When he was done with Hill, Hill responded by saying something to the effect that he hopes Hilgart's kid dies. Child is terminally ill. From that moment on it was a free for all.
Man I hope this rumor isn't true. But if it is, good riddance.
Biggest piece of evidence against it is that Hill isn't in the hospital.
This was a joke, for anyone who might have taken that seriously.
Yeah but seriously. if that actually happened and Hill didn't end up with a broken nose, Hilgarth has more self restraint than I could ever possibly imagine. The amount of tension in that room, and to drop THAT? It makes what dc did look like Shoots & Ladders in comparison.
oh chute!
Yea, that is never okay, regardless of what emotional string had just been plucked.
...cringeworthy.
If there was a human being that I was going to make sure NOT to poke at, Hilgart would be at or near the top of the list. Pretty shameful, if true.
Why is Hilgart lighting up players to begin with. WTF is that. Look I get it he helps get them conditioned and big and what not, but the Strength and Conditioning coach lighting people up after a game is just not warranted?
I never saw Gentry do anything like that after a game. I respect the hell out of Iron Mike.
Look if it was Bud, Corneilson, Fuente who was doing the lighting up, I get it. They you know actually coach the player on the field. I would sit back and shut the hell up if I was the strength coach. Real immature as well.
That being said Hill shouldn't have said anything and deserves what happened.
Fuente needs to get control of his coaches though. I mean a grown as Professional who is really stepping out of line isn't a good look. It's going to hurt recruiting.
I'll say with about 99% certainty that you've got no idea what the bounds of Hilgart's role are, and whether or not he was 'stepping out of line'
Also, can we retire 'not a good look?' Super annoying. Use descriptive words, not a cliche.
Hmmm retiring phrases is just not a good look for this site.
I cant take you seriously anymore with that picture.
Please. as if you took me seriously before
Me going through this thread:
*leg*
*leg*
*leg*
...."aw hell" *leg*
I did not get a good look, but that Flyers mascot is not a good look
Correct, its a great look
What about now?
OMG. Is this going to become like mayonnaise?
If it makes you feel any better I am not only doing this on TKP. I have been sending it out in text messages and a few interdepartmental emails. Most of my friends are ignoring my texts right now.
#winning!
I was apart of Coach Beamer's staff and have been in the locker room collecting jock straps after games. Never have I ever witnessed anything remotely to the extent of what is being described after ANY loss.
I certainly have never seen Coach Gentry yell and scream at anyone after a game, frankly because he doesn't have much say in the X and Os and it wasn't his place.
This is not good for the program period.
I have so many questions that I can't ask
Ebay maybe?
Edit: thats the answer to one of your questions I think. The other is 'scratch and sniff'
Hard to say what he was specifically lighting them up about, and this is largely a different program now. Sure, he has nothing to do with X's and O's, but he may be empowered to challenge players over something like perceived lack of effort*.
*Speculation on my part
If you watch the games you would see that Hilgart is on the sidelines celebrating with the team after big plays and pumping them up. Hilgart gets as much, if not more, time with the players than the coaches. He is leading them in off season workouts when the coaches can have very little interaction with the players. I have no problem with Hilgart trying to get some fire in the players, hell they didn't show any on the field Saturday so they need it to come from someone.
Fights happen. We never had one between a player and coach, but player vs player, we had em. As for Hilgart and Gent speaking up, Gentry gave us some of the best halftime and post game pump up talks ever. He gave one at halftime of the 2010 NC State game that would have had me fighting an actual pack of wolves afterwards.
One of my old teams had a coach/player fight. Two, actually. One verbal, and that kid was very very bad news.
The other is a story I often tell:
Player is pissed off all practice. Kid had an attitude anyway but didn't come from the best home life. He was generally causing trouble all practice long, had his reputation as being a delinquent of sorts, starts getting over-physical with teammates, eventually throwing punches. Coach jumps in to pull him off the field and they get into it. Just a few swings, no real damage, but coach throws him out of practice. Kid shreds tires on the way out of the parking lot, furious.
After practice we ask coach if he's going to cut the player. Coach says one of the best things I've ever heard: "Listen up and listen good because I'm only going to explain this once. Every team needs a guy like that. But no teams can handle having two."
Later in a State Cup game we were down 2-0 to a team that we should have been pounding but they had this giant defender that kept pushing our guys around. We couldn't beat him. Coach calls over to aforementioned player and tells him not to let the defender push him around. Player says, "Fuck that guy," (very much in-character for him). Player goes in, pushes the defender around, scores once and gets two assists. We win 3-2.
Our team needed a guy like that. I never doubted my coach again.
well if were being honest im pretty sure every single person in hokie nation was lighting the players anddddd the coaches up after that one. Sure he has no right to light someone up from a coaching stand point, but from an effort stand point, an attitude stand point, and a representation of VT stand point he certainly has all the right in the world if he feels it was warranted and I would support him in doing so. A coach, no matter what capacity is a coach and the players should respect that and treat coaches with a certain standard. (unless youre in a situation like MD where said coach is causing harm)
I sure am glad you are not my employee. Hilgart is a member of the coaching staff and is an authority figure in the program. If Hill didn't like it, he could leave. Disrespect to an authority figure should never have a voice.
I have no problem with Hill being reprimanded, but my point was our locker room is a flaming hot bag of dog shit.
Getting so out of control that we even have rumors about how bad it is unacceptable.
You can hold people accountable without humiliating them right after you were just literally humiliated in-front of the entire country. It serves no purpose for growth as a team at all.
If our players are so fragile a few words from a coach bothers them that much more than the embarrassment they allowed to occur on the field of play, we have way more issues than a coach maybe possibly overstepping his role.
That isn't professional. How do think any player is going to act when emotions are at an all time because we just got routed by ODU. You are just adding gas to the fire. You got to cool the situation down, not rev it up to higher gear.
The adults in the situation should know better. There is a correct time and place for everything.
Well if Hill wanted to be in the NFL, and if he can't handle if Hilgart got him hyper-emotional, then what would Hill do in a NFL locker when some 10-vet digs into his ass?
While I disagree on Hilgart's authority (I think he could be in a position to coach the players on the sideline or in the locker room), I do not think there is any discussion to be had at that moment that makes the team better. The players earned that result, what else do you need to say.
The chance for improvement is remembering the feeling from Saturday night to inspire greater effort in preparation or not losing focus in competition.
If Hilgart is being paid for his job, and his job is to light into the players as he deems appropriate, then he's a professional.
That's what I always learned.
Let it play out. If the Hokies run the table the rest of the way, and in some interview, a player is asked, "What turned it all around for you guys? and the player answers, "Hilgart lit a fire under our asses back in Norfolk. Ain't NOBODY gonna be wondering why Hilgart is yelling at the poor kids.
Just playing devils advocate here, but I'm sure it was more than just a few words from Hilgart to elicit such a horrific, and likely heated response from Hill. I'm sure you have been verbally or physically taunted or had someone press your buttons before, and eventually your fuse just burns out. Not excusing what Hill allegedly said at all, but it was an awful game and I'm sure he had been hearing stuff from coaches and teammates all game long. Was getting in a players face and chewing him out really the best approach well after the game? Honestly I'm sure Fuente and Foster got their two cents in before that too.
If coaches are yelling in players faces and challenging their manhood/pride that much after an already emotional loss, I can understand how tempers might have flared. Then he says something insanely dumb because he finally snapped (and likely felt horrible and regretted it pretty quickly), and he's thrown off the team the next day? Honestly that's kind of BS looking at it that way.
This is far from Hill's first foray into the gray area regarding the culture Fuente is trying to instill in his program. Fuente says he's been communicating with Hill throughout the entire process and that Hill knew he was on thin ice. Assuming all of that is true, this was merely the final straw, and Fuente was likely close to kicking him off the team at some point before.
My thoughts on the matter wonder if a 1-2 game suspension wouldn't have worked as well before removal from the team. But I also can't recall if he has been suspended for games before because of conduct unbecoming.
If what he is rumored to have said is true, if I'm Hilgart, I would not be in the same room with him again, ever, for fear of ripping his head off.
I am hoping that one rumor is just that, a rumor.
"Just playing devils advocate here"
"I am sure it was more than a few words"
"I am sure you have been verbally or physically taunted"
"I'm sure he had been hearing stuff"
You sure?
It could be possible he was addressing nothing more than the behavior we were hearing about (physical confrontations within the team, etc.)
This is definitely acceptable. I agree if that was what happened it would be warranted, but that's not the picture that is being painted at the start of this thread.
There was no definite picture being painted. Everyone jumped to their own conclusion and then argued based on their personal interpretation.
I listened to an interview Saban did recently and he said his S&C coach played the biggest role in turning around the culture when he took the job at Bama. Saban said he was his most important hire. Hilgart sets the tone in the offseason and is a critical psychological influence on our team. Outside of Clemson last year (and maybe Miami) and inexplicably ODU, we haven't been pushed around. I think players have to be accountable to everyone on the staff.
This. In addition, the S&C Coach typically spends as much time, if not more time, with the players than the coaching staff. No surprise that Hilgart would take a leadership position in the locker room like this.
Thinking back to several games over the past few years... a big play happens and Hilgart is jacked up, high fiving players, chest bumping and getting them fired up. He did it when Grimsley made a sweet catch against FSU and pretty sure as well when Kumah @-ed Blanding last year versus UVA. The players seem to respond back to him positively. It's much more emotion than Fuente shows and likely even Foster. He definitely has a pulse on this team and an emotional role with the players.
In the highlights posted after the ND comeback two years ago you can hear Hilgart at halftime yelling and motivating the team. You also saw him on the sidelines against UVA last season pulling kids away before they did anything dumb. I don't necessarily like the idea of a S&C coach being the one to light in to guys in the locker room but a) it's not my team and b) getting back in his face and insulting his kid is the wrong move.
Obviously different people are motivated by different things, but if a strength coach can push you to the limits of what you can physically do in the weight room, he obviously has the ability to motivate and coach- I personally like the fact that he has this role on the sidelines- coaches are coaching and making decisions on what information is available to them on the field; Hilgart recognizes his role to be motivational and has owned it.
When JJ came back out of the locker room on crutches, every shot of him had Hilgart standing right next to him. He didn't have to be there - but a guy he cares about was hurt and he wanted to be there for him. It's obvious that Hilgart is not simply there to beat down players and he obviously understands different ways to motivate.
No coach kicks a star and one of the few veterans on the defense off the team on a whim. Hill even personally had a pretty decent game. My inclination is to trust the coaching staff on this.
This really sucks for Hill all the way around, and regardless of the circumstances that led to it, this young man has an unhappy road ahead of him.
this young man has an unhappy road ahead of him.
What are his options at this point? Can he join another school this far into the season? I saw an LOLUVA fan suggesting online he join the Hoos.
He can't play again this year. His best shot as an upperclassman would be to either graduate this or next semester to play immediately elsewhere, or transfer down to the FCS level to play immediately regardless of whether or not he graduates.
If Fuente didn't want Hilgart to be vocal then Hilgart wouldn't do it or wouldn't be here. It may not be how I would do things but it's not wrong. Fuente can assign responsibilities as he sees fit.
Agree + adding supporting evidence for this from Hilgart himself: Linky Link.
To paraphrase - 'it starts with culture ... our job is to promote the culture and instill the vision the head coach has for the entire program. We have the opportunity to be around these players more than the position coaches do, so every single day we're going to promote the vision and the culture for this football program.'
Also, to quote Sam Rogers: "I feel like Coach Hilgart is just an extension of Coach Fuente." ~NYTimes
Oh yeah, you can tell on the sideline that Hilgart is a critically important member. He's the emotional barometer of the team.
You do realize you are reacting to a rumor someone posted on a message board right? Maybe take it down a notch.
As long as Hilgart is not addressing X's and O's, I'd say it would be 100% within his role to light up players for lack of effort. He is a member of the coaching staff and part of his job is to make sure the players are giving their all.
Yep. He pretty much says it here. We promote the vision and the culture.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYbLOJ2bMKM
Sauces on the terminally ill child? might want to check that out and verify. My sauces have no information on that condition, but my sauces are also kids so they are questionable tweens.
My sauces also did not say anything about a terminally ill child, but a disabled child instead. Could have gotten mixed up as sauces flowed though.
Terminally ill or Disabled. It really doesnt matter.
Absolutely 100% you are correct
I mean, if he said he hoped his kid died, that would still be fucked up if the kid were healthy.
That lines up with what I (unsubstantiated rumor alert!) have heard.
Hilgart's child has a terminal illness? What illness? Just terrible
The postgame locker room was a mess. There was lots of smoke trickling out. I can't confirm anything I've heard, so I won't post here, but we really should just close this door, call it a day, and move on.
You know what? I disagree.
I'm tired of all this hush-hush, nobody ever knows the true story.
You want to fulfill the drive to 25?
You want asses in the seats?
You want fans to be passionate?
Well you best damn well explain to the fans the unfathomable things like how your best players keep getting kicked off the team.
Or unfathomable things like losing to an 0-3 ODU team that should be out-talented position by position.
This is a public university. Tell the taxpayers and the boosters what the hell is going on. Don't give me shit about "kids privacy". You just took my investment and pissed it down the drain for no apparent reason other than "trust me".
Well for my money, my trust ran out after a 2 touchdown loss to a 4 touchdown underdog. Tell me how in the world that happened, how you are making your decisions to shit-can so many players, and let me decide if I'm going to keep investing.
Can't agree enough
...it should go plaid (it probably will)
Adonis Grades, Reynolds Arrest
So outside Hill which happened two and a half days ago what removal from the team hasn't been explained?
There appears to be a culture problem.
Who is taking responsibility for that?
And before you tell me that the players are responsible, take a moment to remember that you are the guy that every thread castigates anyone for questioning the performance and/or the commitment of one of the "kids" who are playing for Virginia Tech.
Yes, Adonis and Reynolds bear responsibility for their actions as ADULTS.
It is at the same time true that their mentors (or those who should be their mentors) seem to be having some real problems doing that part of their jobs.
Just blindly defending every staff decision and every player performance is no argument for confidence in this team's direction.
You really should read what Adonis has said. The staff and coaches bent over backwards to help him out.
Man blames culture in the locker room after disappointing loss while having no insight in to what is actually going on in the locker room.
You won't believe what happens next!
Were my words.
WTF is going on in this locker room?
I don't know. I just know that this past off season of crazy shit has not seemed to diminished 3 games into the season.
Do you have some insight here, or are you just taking the opposing view?
i.e.: Man with no insight to the locker room is willing to accept everything the coaches say and do.
Why is that position any better?
I'm asking for knowledge. You are claiming knowledge is unnecessary.
To your point, if this was Fuente's first season as head coach, we all would be talking about how he lost the locker room and soon after the team. He has bought some good will after the last 2 seasons, so we aren't.
Its's a fair question to ask.
I wonder what the culture was at Memphis at the time Fuente left? Wonder if that could give any insight into whether we may actually have something to be concerned about? Sure would shed some light on whether he can right this ship or if this is indeed the case. From what I've heard he turned around Memphis culture that was said to be beyond repair.
By all accounts, Fuente completely changed Memphis from a dumpster fire to a football school. It started with motivating his players to get through single practices. Then to believing they could actually win games. Then to play technically sound football to beat opponents that overmatched them.
https://www.si.com/college-football/2015/01/22/justin-fuente-memphis-tigers
https://www.sbnation.com/college-football/2015/9/26/9398835/memphis-foot...
I honestly don't believe a guy that can accomplish something like that is having a massive culture problem in the locker room. In fact, I am inclined to believe that the locker room is facing a culture change with a guy that is extremely no nonsense. You play one way, his way.
Here's what I know. Fuente's way has at least some proven track record. He produced a winning program that was at the very bottom of the list of desired coaching destinations. So yeah, it absolutely sucks to see some of our more talented players leave the program. I don't want to lose. But I'd rather win the right way with a coach I respect than win with a coach that, for example, deletes texts about a possible sexual assault and lies about using medication that causes him to lose his ability to remember things to cover his own ass.
I agree, furthermore, I think this culture change is imperative for VT to take the next step. We can't take the next step by recruiting on or two 4/5 star players a year and hoping they carry the team. Beamer caught lightning in a bottle twice with Vick and Taylor. You can't count on that to take you back to a natty. Our players need to play soundly and consistently to beat teams with more talent. I think it's possible. Even if we get 3/4 star players in the two deep at every position I believe that with a sound culture this program can beat almost anyone.
You're not even answering his question, just continuing your rant from before. There's a long thread specifically for this kind of venting, go do it there and spare the rest of the site the random diatribes based on vague rumors and flimsy speculation.
So members are only allowed to voice displeasure in community approved Vent Threads ®?
Threads are organized as discussions where people respond to one another. He's replying to people and not addressing the ideas or direct questions in those posts, thus it's venting, not a discussion. That and the hyper-negative tone that is basically just conflating any and all frustrations into meaning whatever he wants it to mean makes it a vent. Then again, I visited this site after a monumental loss, so I'm not sure what I was expecting. Maybe I'll just see myself out.
I am capable of understanding a rhetorical question, and speaking to the broader point.
I don't think the question was rhetorical, it was direct in order to focus the discussion on something tangible, not
run-away frustration spurred by vague rumors.
I would say there was a culture problem that was too hard to address early on because it would have resulted in damaging departures that would have sunk the last two seasons. There can also be escalating conflicts as the new culture begins to be enforced more forcefully. People don't like losing freedom or latitude when it comes to behavior. Hill could be acting out more because he feels like this new culture is too stifling and that is not what he signed up for.
Fuente may have a lot in common with Beamer in some ways but he's also a very different coach. Beamer was a very different coach in his early days and he mellowed with age. Sometimes that mellowing is effective and sometimes it leads to complacency.
Of any of the issues I have with this coaching staff their strictness is not one of them. Sometimes I question the Xs and Os strategy and the play calling. Having said that, I really feel like Justin Fuente is trying to lay the foundation for success. VT can't recruit a team full of 4 and 5 star players two deep and just unleash them on the field. VT has to be successful with 3 and 4 star players and that means incredible amounts of effort and teamwork. Teams like Boise St and BYU demonstrate how effective that can be with even less talent than that. For that team work to be effective you can't have a couple of really talented guys who may not comply with the teams policies as that undermines the idea that the rules matter and that no one is above them and all players are equal. I think we have needed more of this. Beamer's 90's teams were like this. Effort is going to be key in winning enough games to up our recruiting.
From my personal life I can relate to needing more discipline and knowing when to keep my mouth shut. On most of my technical teams I was easily the top performer, if not one of few top performers. Because of that, I sometimes felt that all the "little" rules did not apply to me. I had a really great boss (former military) who basically helped me reform that attitude. When I did that and made sure that I took the lumps like everyone else (even if my individual performance was fine), I became a better team mate and my teammates started performing better because they did not feel like I was getting away with anything. I can say for certain that instilled a sense of humility in me and that has made me far more successful.
I think I can sum it this way. In Beamer's later years I feel like he was willing to sacrifice discipline for talent. I don't think Fuente is there. I can't blame him for that approach. I feel like the last few Beamer teams fell apart too easily.
I understand where you're coming from, but I also sort of disagree.
A friend of mine is in sales and when he first started out, there was another salesperson who made nearly half the sales total of the department of about 15 salespeople. This high-performing salesperson always came in late and left early and the other salespeople complained and complained and complained. Finally their manager started clamping down, so that salesperson left and sales plummeted. For whatever reason, the other salespeople couldn't fill the empty shoes. The company as a whole suffered.
I've never forgotten that and understand the star treatment - to a point.
Apples to hand grenades comparison. I'm a sales manager and there are expectations of all but they generally work in different ways. As long as they're meeting goals compliantly with company policy, you can be a bit more lenient in sales. Why? Because they don't have to work together 11 at a time in concert. Totally different
That's a good point
I get the frustration. I really do. I am too.
But this kind of perspective frustrates me too.
You are not "investing". You are not a shareholder of VT football. You are donating to a nonprofit. You donate to support the team/athletic department/school/etc. and receive whatever benefits are spelled out as part of your donation/membership benefits.
You are always free to not donate again, but you are not entitled to anything more than the benefits spelled out for your donation. You do not own VT football.
And no, you don't get to "screw" the players' privacy. There are literally laws that apply to this and forbid such disclosures. And you are not entitled to that information. Regardless of whether you donate or not.
I am absolutely investing.
You can talk semantics til the cows come home, but there is no question that when some of your money is used for any endeavor, you want that money to be used wisely, and if things are going sideways, you want to know why. Whether you pay voluntarily (booster) or involuntarily (taxes), it makes no difference. You are investing with an expectation of a return.
The current ROI projections are decidedly pointed in the wrong direction. A dismissal like Hill's reeks of knee-jerk reactionism after a bad performance all around.
Maybe he said bad words. Maybe he didn't. Who really cares? Words after a game like that are just words, and anyone who takes them personally and completely derails one person's future based on them is far more abusive than the person who speaks the words in a moment of high passion.
Maybe he got in a physical altercation. Depending on the circumstances, I could get behind a dismissal. But we don't know.
But it looks for the world like a whole lot of butt-hurt people made some butt-hurt decisions, and the person with the least agency of the group ended up being kicked to the curb.
Coaching is no democracy. I get that, and believe in it. But year 3 is not the best time to have your program look completely adrift. In fact, it is probably the worst. I love Fuente's body of work, up until last weekend, and the past off-season.
I hope to hell this long run of shit is just a really really statistical outlier. But it would do him and this program a lot of good to start being more transparent.
Correct your Hokie Club "investment" is paying for an education. Tech graduation rates are very high, so great return on investment.
I don't think that's what he means. He can conceptualize his donation however he pleases. Many people donate to athletics and not academics. They do that in hopes that Tech will win on the field, thus an "ROI".
Everyone has their own opinion on Hill, Saturday's performance, and the future of the Program. A lot of which probably shouldn't be shared by nameless people on a website. I sometimes wish everyone's picture and real names were attached to their post. My guess is the personal attacks and little digs would diminish considerably.
Let's just try to put all of this in perspective in the grand scheme of life and hope we pull out a W this weekend.
Go Hokies.
It's been said ad nauseum on this thread and others, that the theme you point to as evidence of lack of control really is a matter of several high profile players using up all their chances. You have to draw a line somewhere, and hold people accountable, or there really will be a lack of control.
Remember, this is a team if mostly freshman and sophomores. There are going to be leadership issues until the team literally grows up a bit.
I don't agree that you are investing but lets play that out.
If you are an investor, then so is everyone else who donates. Therefore VT is much like a public company offering common stock and we (who have donated/invested) are all shareholders.
Corporations have a legal responsibility to report to their shareholders which is essentially what you are asking for. However, access to information is privileged. The more investment you've made the more information you get access to. If you're making small investments then you get a form letter and a report in the mail. From there you might get invited to a regional shareholder event, then a general one, then a VIP one, then a pricipal shareholders event and if you go beyond that you basically own a hefty portion of the corporation and know everything anyway.
Where on that spectrum is your investment? I can tell you I am still down where I am lucky to get a form letter in the mail.
When applying real world scenarios we need to add real world context. Fuente is extremely tight lipped but we as investors at our level are already getting mor info than a typical corporation.
To extend this analogy...
Even has a big time investor, you don't get the details of personnel decisions unless 1) you are on the board and the position in question is determined by the board (CEO, President, etc) or 2) you are on the board and the behavior of the person presents exposure to the company, that has associated legal implications (e.g., insider trading, corporate espionage). Anything other than that is information that isn't commonly available to investors and the company has serious exposure if you make investment decisions based on that privileged knowledge.
Providing details that make Hill look even worse than this situation already does, does not benefit the team and further damages Hill's reputation. Why go there? It just comes across as petty piling on to a young man who's made some mistakes.
Honestly, I am not entirely sure where I stand on the investment discussion. But I am sure of this: we are ALL upset, and rightfully so. We lost in an nationally embarrassing, and inexplicable way. When that happens, it is completely natural to look for answers. With all of the dismissals, my gut tells me that there is no way there aren't problems in the locker room. That's part of adapting, but also because the dismissals, all of which are performance leaders, have left a (perceived only maybe, but there none the less) leadership void, and the teanm not only needs to figure that out, they also are contending with the fact that several of their peers were dismissed. I don't need insider knowledge to feel confident in that. That is simply part of shaking up an established team. Is there a deeper issue there? Darned if I know. And I know I'm not going to get an answer to that either.
What I am absolutely sure of is that Coach Fu and his staff have a first rate leadership challenge on their hands right now. And the Duke game will be telling to say the least. Regardless though - Go Hokies!
I get it, it's frustrating not being in the know. Suffice it to say:
- Hill was on a short leash for a handful of things, some of which w
- Fuente has--and continues to--do things to help Trevon
Investment != entitlement
Guess I get to write it off on my taxes this year...oh wait.
Cd8hokies you are spot on with your take.
Not that I fully agree with the sentiment above but that non profit pays out a 4 million dollar salary. A salary that doesn't get paid if no one donated and lane sat empty week to week. And it is still a state run entity.
I take issue with the idea of a donation towards a scholarship fund being an investment, and to my knowledge no taxpayer money funds the athletic department. This isn't to say that you aren't allowed to want the transparency that you're asking for, but that justification is a little flimsy. I suppose if you buy a lot of season tickets then that's a little different.
Sorry, buying a half dozen season tickets and being a Gold level contributor does not entitle you to access. You have to throw down 2 orders of magnitude more than that.
I agree. I don't mean to make it sound like tickets should equal access by default. I was only saying that season ticket purchases could in theory be treated differently than scholarship contributions.
I look at it as an investment, one in a kids future and his kids future. A degree from VT. They don't owe anything back on that investment.
Investment in that sense, sure. Certainly not a personal investment. Just depends on how you like to use the word I guess.
I give to the Hokie Club because I want VT to have world class athletics. The only thing I feel entitled to is the window stickers they sent me.
Yup
The idea that football teams, coaches, and players should be held to some sort of "standard" by fans is played-out at this point. Who are the biggest CFB donors/fanatics that most people can identify? Kevin Plank at UMD, Phil Knight at Oregon, T. Boone Pickens at OK State, and everyone's pal Papa John at Louisville (formerly).
These guys have given hundreds of millions of dollars to football programs and universities that they fully believe in, and none of these schools have won a national championship in recent history. Are these guys publicly crying and asking for their money back because the teams they "invest in" are not winning or have cultural issues? If they are, I don't hear it.
Nobody "owes" you or us anything. They don't owe us wins, transparency, information, national championships, or even living up to some sort of moral/integrity standard (which is mostly made up BS that individuals impose to avoid accepting that all humans - even you - are flawed).
The level of drama in some of these statements is staggering.
I mean if we're going to go meta here.....
These Athletic Departments are run by schools that, for the most part, are charging upwards of $20k-$30k per year per student to attend, minimum, with tuition in a constant state of inflation. Not only that, but the vast majority of these schools are publicly funded, also bringing in taxpayer money as part of their revenue streams. These schools are raking in revenue annually, hand over fist, and are busy either padding the pockets of executive administrators or spending frivolously on flashy over the top buildings and amenities that do little to increase the actual honest to goodness education of the students at hand, most of which end up leaving with debt they won't have any hope in paying off within 10-20 years of graduation.
And then these same schools cry poverty on the Athletic side of the venture, requiring the same students and alumni they just financially squeezed the life out of for 4+ years to turn and donate their hard earned cash on top of their student loan payments to help "keep the lights on", and then we're supposed to sit on our hands and just accept it as part of the process when it appears that money is being wasted through disappointing and borderline embarrassing results because "you can't expect any return on that donation."?
Its only a matter of time before this entire process collapses in on itself.
Yes, the system is awful (and it's not just universities that waste taxpayer money).
That said, a "donation" in its truest nature implies no reciprocation. Simple as that.
Reciprocation? No. Some level of transparency and accountability? Yes, just like every other non-profit.
"Not for Profit" hospitals make tons of cash with no transparency and pay 7-figure salaries to administrators and the Red Cross regularly misuses donations meant to help people in need for the benefit of few.
I'm not sure every other non-profit provides the transparency and accountability you are asking for.
If they want to continue to get the donations they have, it would be better if they were a little more transparent with the people giving them money. It's hard enough to get them, and real easy to lose them.
They can all take their money elsewhere. Check out what happened to FSU. They lost a really good coach.
You had me right up until you said Jimbo Fisher was a really good coach.
He is really good at connecting the bag men...
He's won a National Championship against the SEC.
Something I wish our program can say, but sadly cannot.
Maybe but do they really need our cash? Or, are they just asking for it because they know we'll give it to them?
I'll continue to beat this drum. "Mere mortal" donors don't get the transparency.
One of the things people are losing sight of, at least in this case: Fuente will do whatever he can to protect Hill from the blowback (which could harm future opportunities) and help him get a handle on things. If it gets out, it won't come from the head whistle in an appeal to keep low-level donors happy.
I'm not taking a position here, but it's the new normal, as it were. More stuff got out with Beamer, Fuente is more Fort Knox.
That'll work just so long as the program keeps winning. But fall to sub-.500 on a consistent basis and that well of "mere mortal" donations dries up quick if it isn't a 2-way street.
Even then, I don't think the current model has much more staying power. Graduates have far less disposable income than graduates had even 10 years ago and it's only getting worse. The idea of just banking on them freely giving money with no accountability from the recipient won't fly for the next generation.
Get what you are saying...however, nothing is required of us. Just a matter of what our priorities are for our hard earned cash.
Funny, the people who feel entitled to access are the same group of people that railed on former players for feeling "entitled" to wanting more transparency and access to the program because they invested 4-5 years into building it.
Given the offseason and what appeared to be a tremendously unprepared Hokies team on Saturday, I'm going to conjecture that the locker room woes suggested above were not a 1-time occurrence. Again this is entirely conjecture, and we aren't going to get clarity on what's (been) going on. But with all the dismissals reminded me of this:
If you ask a coach which he'd prefer: a 5-star player with 2-star attitude, or a 2-star player with a 5-star attitude; I'd imagine the latter to be the much more common choice.
Am wondering if we've had some of the former.
You hit the nail on the head. Where is the Sam Rogers on this team?
The transition from the Beamer era had been pretty smooth up to this point, but it looks like there was no one ready to step up into a leadership role once the last few classes left. As much talent as this team has, it looks like the total rebuild is going to have to take place leadership-wise.
That said, this team is like 80% underclassmen, so it shouldn't be too big of a surprise this is an issue, and based on how Fuente has publicly responded to this game, I think leadership development is in good hands.
Pretty much came here to say the same thing.
There's only 7 (SEVEN!) seniors/RS-seniors on this team (Walker, Peoples, Chung, Nijman, Pfaff, Carroll, & Mihota). Of the juniors/RS-juniors, only a handful have played meaningful snaps prior to this year (Gaines, Fox, Floyd, Burke, Fullwood, Plantin, T. Smith, Kumah, & Cunningham).
There's a dearth of experienced players on this roster, and I think we're seeing that play out at this juncture. From the outside looking in, it's hard to see which of those personalities has assumed an internal leadership role. Maybe that's projecting, but there doesn't seem to be an unquestioned leader on this team yet.
Agreed. I don't have any inside knowledge either but I think the dismissals during the offseason, Goode, and Hill are the result of an ongoing culture change. Changing any organization's culture is messy and it doesn't happen over night. I give CJF credit for holding the staff accountable and firing Galen immediately this summer. We had a senior class during Fuente's first year that exhibited a tremendous amount of leadership and bought into the culture change. That success caused us to underestimate the timeframe required to make this Fuente's program. This team is young and I'm anxious for some of the young guys to fill that leadership void.
Unfortunately we aren't a blue blood with unlimited resources so we cant afford too many missteps before recruiting takes a hit. That is what is so frustrating about this loss. Being in the midst of a culture change isn't an excuse to lose to ODU, there are no excuses to lose to ODU. Now that window is tighter and we cant afford to implode this season.
I watched a YT video where Hilgart was pumping the team up before the game in the middle of a huddle. Clearly he has a bigger voice in the locker room than we realize. I have no problem with a coach, regardless of his title getting after these kids. Especially if the coaching staff is clearly cool with him being a motivational presence.
^This. I've noticed that Hilgart is on the sidelines near coach Fuente most of the time. He's obviously a pretty important part of the staff and has a role on game day.
Gentry did the same thing. This isn't new.
source
Coach G knew when his voice was needed and when he used it, it worked. He was never the big pump up guy on the sideline. A head nod of approval from him coming off the field meant as much as another other celebration you could get on the sideline.
Well, if players are spending time determining if a member of the coaching staff has the right to be addressing them, then there's problems already.
He's the PERFECT person to light into them for lack of effort & toughness. He's with the players MORE in the offseason and really overall more than anybody. We mostly manhandled FSU, so with the same EFFORT we'd have beaten ODU too. I'm glad to hear Higart was lighting them up
I just wished it had occurred earlier in the game so that they could have salvaged the W.
The thing that scares me the most after this loss is the apparent lack of leadership from seniors and specifically captains. I personally wasn't watching the game (thank God), but I have seen in multiple places where JJ and Slick Rick were seen with either their heads down pouting or simply sitting on the sideline not being active leaders. That's the most worrisome thing about this loss. No leadership. If our captains aren't going to take control of the team and rally the troops and keep everyone focused than this football team is in deep trouble.
Something smells rotten. I don't know what it is, but it needs to be figured out FAST or I fear this could really send us spiraling out of control. It seems that things already have with the Hill incident and who knows what else after the loss. Hopefully things will change and senior leadership/the coaching staff will get us through this storm, but what I've heard about JJ's and others attitude towards being a leader is very unsettling.
Compare & contrast to Jerod Evans two years ago rallying the troops on the sideline at Notre Dame, and during the bowl game.
Ehhhh, I think that's noise.
I'm always surprised to see how much people feel like they can deduce about leadership of athletes by very limited snapshots. Think about leadership in your life. Think about people who have motivated you to do better in whatever field you are in. It is almost never a rah-rah moment. It's almist always a quiet moment in the hallway. Or a text. Or the example they set. Or their accountability.
I'm really struggling with the idea that if you contribute to an athletic program, you somehow "own" a piece of the team and are entitled to inside info about the behind the doors workings and management of the program.
Its Funny because you can get inside info. I went to a meet and Greet (and drink) with Coach Bud during the later Beamer era. It was costly (my boss paid for it) but the inside info he gave away was awesome. My former boss and I never once spoke about what we heard that night.
That would never work in these social media days, because everything said would just end up on Twitter.
Depends on who you are.
True Horse. I remember before we walked in my Boss said forget everything you hear here.
Yeah I don't know why everything has to be shared all the time nowadays. Sometimes, just let it be what it is and let it go by the wayside. I do think you're right though, it seems like any group of people, especially one as large as a team, will have at least one person who is going to take everything and toss it into a social media platform for one reason or another.
Twitter again, huh? I can positively, absolutely, guarantee that I wouldn't...oh hell, nevermind.
All the comments about investment in the program, remind me why college football shouldn't be a minor league system for the NFL. And why Urban Meyer shouldn't be employed. And why these coaches should not be the highest paid public employees of any given state. And why kids shouldn't be handed out grades. I love football as much as the next person, but the objective of Virginia Tech is educating students. And your donations go towards that goal, by providing scholarships for players who may not be able to afford an education otherwise. There should be a separate, minor league football system for guys 18-21 who just want to go to the NFL and it would not involve a school at all. Or kids should be able to go pro after 1 year of college. Or 0 years if you're good enough. College is about school.
But that would require the NFL owners to spend money investing in a minor league/development league when they already have that for free with college football. Think about major league baseball and the expense each team has with their farm system. NFL has their cake (not pie) and are eating it too.
That, and there are numerous examples of someone trying to create an independent league separate from the NFL that never become successful, probably because of college football.
Those leagues were meant to compete with the NFL not help develop players for the NFL.
That won't benefit anybody. The pro game is already so much more analytical and fast-paced than the college game. Jumping straight from high school to the league would overwhelm anybody.
Now if the NFL had an actual minor league, then sure. Otherwise, I don't see any pro teams burning a roster spot on an 18-year-old kid for three years while he acclimates to the game.
That's the same argument the NBA used for years before underclassmen/high schoolers were allowed to enter the draft. Let them all declare. If they don't get drafted, they don't get drafted, but not sure how staying in school benefited Jadeveon Clowney, Adrian Peterson, Randy Moss.
NBA is not NFL by any stretch. The difference in physicality alone sets the two apart when it comes to letting high schoolers jump in.
Now, if you have a bunch of high schoolers hire agents and declare for the draft and then go undrafted, then congratulations, their careers are effectively over before they start unless they make it into arena ball.
Not many from HS are ready for the NBA, but there are guys like LeBron and Kobe. Clowney was a man playing against boys from the day that he walked on campus. Hershel Walker was the same. There's at most only a couple athletes per year, who could handle the NFL, but to imply that none could isn't valid. It's also likely to be position dependent (RB, WR and DE as the most likely candidates, in my mind).
For every LeBron and Kobe (who didn't even start regularly his rookie year), you have a few each of Stromile Swift, Ndudi Ebi, and Kwame Brown that thought they were about to be the next LeBron or Kobe.
Your point about Clowney and Walker is fair, but it seems to me that the NFL (and, for that matter, the CFL) wants to protect itself from the proverbial Kwame Browns who would be better served going to college and learning the game more.
The NFL couldn't even protect itself from Ryan Leaf.
It doesn't matter how old new players are when entering the league. It's always a bit of a crapshoot as to which ones become successful.
good riddance he's gone
I liked your comment more before you edited it.
Yep. I was curious about the details behind the post. And now... nada.
this is one of my favorite Simpsons scenes (from so many many favorites), ever.
thanks for the lols
I keep checking this thread in hopes for the actual details of the story. RIP Best to move on i suppose
It will see the light of day, but not for a good long while.
I, too, continue to check, and continue to be disappointed at the lack of news. I keep telling myself that someone will make a new thread if more information is made public, but it never seems to help.
if you've reached this far: I love our community -for it's intellectual diatribes and fair sense in (mmmmmost) debates, as well as the utter lunacy with condiments, deserts, gifs and/or unhealthy affection for Harry Potter starlets. to everyone:
Agreed.
Book Ginny is 10000% better than movie Ginny.
Cho was better.
In the book Cho is a big ol skank though.
Slooooooooot
Isn't Cho the one that sells out Dumbledore's Army? That can't be forgiven.
It is her little bitch of a friend Marietta in the print version. Hermione still owned her though.