Here is French's scorching hot take of the evening: I don't want JUCO and grad transfers. I realize because of the work TKP takes, I have a somewhat myopic view of college football. However, with very few exceptions (Cam Newton at Auburn, Russell Wilson at Wisconsin) and almost all of them QBs, I rarely have seen graduate transfers and JUCO players being difference makers. It is even more rare to find a difference maker in the front 7 on either offense or defense, which is clearly the biggest need for Virginia Tech.
Defensive line is particularly problematic. I know I have a relatively limited window. However, I can't think of a really dynamic JUCO defensive lineman in college football in the recent past. Can you? Having guys whose potential upside is as a place holder is part of the problem they face right now. The same can be said for corner. Nick Fairley, who was Auburn's best defensive player during the Cam Newton title run, is the only big time defensive lineman that comes to mind.
I think there is a reason there has been so little success in that route. To be a winner, and to set the example for those around you, you have to be bright enough to learn what you need to do and have the will to fight through adversity to do it.
JUCO + Grad Transfers = dummies and quitters. I realize that is the highest form of hyperbole, and isn't really fair. However, the track record of those players isn't sparkling. And I can't point to a team that has been a true Power 5 conference perennial contender since Kansas State's hey day that won with a significant presence of either. If they have those spots, I want to see the leadership of this program sell the opportunity to get on the field quickly. Sell how Tremaine Edmunds, Terrell Edmunds, and Tim Settle got to the next level. And then develop those guys.
Comments
Good take, I can still see nuggets of potential but they need time to grow up.
West Virginia 2018?
Which guys are you thinking of?
Kenny Bigelow NT from USC and Jabril Robinson DE from Clemson. Both are grad transfers, both start, both playing very well.
Robinson is starting over Ferrell and Bryant?
He's starting for WVU, both are. Those were their former schools. People are using WVU as a similar example for comparison to us because last year their DL was horrible and it cost them a lot of games. This year they went and got some grad transfers and are a 1 loss team in November with much improved DL play. I think WVU got really lucky with what was available in the grad transfer market, but it's still a good comparison to our situation this year.
Those two players also rebut the assertion that grad transfers are "dummies" or too "lazy" to earn a starting position at their old school. Bigelow was a former 5 star recruit who due to knee injuries got pushed way down the depth chart to the point that he almost gave up football. His last rehab went well enough that he decided to give it another chance at a new school. All reports are that not only is his play been great but he is a leader in the locker room as well. As for Robinson, he simply found himself below the starters of what may be the best defensive line in college this year at Clemson. Because he wanted to get on the field more he came to WV and beat out the starter from the last few games of last year. He is now backed up by a true freshman 4 star who looks to Robinson as a mentor.
What about Nijman? I know he regressed but wasn't he JUCO and didn't he have a positive impact?
Not JUCO. FUMA is a prep school. And it is a prep school with a long history of producing good players. Perhaps I am a little biased after seeing Jim Davis come out of FUMA and be unblockable.
French, I think you are completely missing the mark on this one. No one said the grad transfers and JUCO players we're recruiting this season are gonna become all-americans. We just need a few older/experienced/physically developed guys to plug in the defensive line next season because we are getting dangerously close to having NO ONE to play those positions.
I think the point is that those guys aren't going to win the Coastal for us
This...I think at this point, we need game-ready bodies at most all of the DL positions.
JUCOs and Grad transfers certainly are a bandage at best, but we have a massive bleeding wound due to years of recruiting misses.
I look a it this way...rather than trying to take a guy like DeBose and force him to play out of position due to sheer lack of depth, I'd rather take a flier on a JUCO guy at DT and let DeBose play what fits him best.
A bandaid doesn't fix a gunshot wound. There are 3 DTs coming in. I'd spend that time and resources trying to find the long shot big time talent like Settle.
Do you think the staff can be patient enough to develop the young guys coming in, or do they feel they're on the hot seat and maybe have a sense of urgency and the perceived need to go the JUCO route for an immediate "fix"?
I don't know. I don't have a any kind of feel for what is going on behind the scenes, good or bad. I do know that Pitt was physically superior to VT up front, and that was made worse by a multitude of complete screw ups on the basic foundational type- things Bud teaches and has been teaching since 1995 on defense.
I'm your opinion, is this lack of effort/knowledge or is it more of a lack of strength?
As much as Hilgart gets praised with the before and after shots, myself included, could he be partly to blame?
We've had the least fire of any football team I've seen in a long time. Still puzzles me. Maybe it is because of the ways defenses are flagged now.
At different moments, all three. Mostly being physically dominated and making mistakes.
Yeah, it's situations like how we're being consistently over-matched by offensive and defensive lines the likes of BC and Pitt that confuses me, and makes me think a lot of this can be attributed to coaching. Excuse me if I'm wrong, but I don't remember the last time either of those schools had big time, top 20 recruiting classes. Therefore, they're either finding diamonds in the rough or being coached up to meet the expectations of the program, both of which we thrived upon in the past. I realize those interior lines also contained a fair number of upperclassmen, and have head coaches with interior line backgrounds, but this seems to happen every year. I mean, every year Pitt and/or BC has solid to spectacular linemen without having 4- to 5-star recruits. They must know where to find them and/or how to coach them - something that we have fallen behind on doing recently, even going back to the Beamer days.
It also really confuses me how we can go from having super solid, nationally ranked defenses to what we have been seeing lately, with atrocious tackling and no lines of defense (back breaks through front line and he's gone). Where the hell are the backers and DBs? Is it because we're so weak on the line that we need everyone up on the LOS, or because we're doing some crazy stunts or blitz packages that are taking us out of position? I think we need to get back to basics on D, especially in light of the personnel we have. I think if we can manage to keep it simple, and keep everything in front of us, we'll at least have a chance to win. I'm all for being aggressive on defense, but it seems like we neither have the skills, nor the personnel to do that without risking being gashed for the big play on a fairly consistent basis.
Would be nice to see the team rise up to win these last two games at home to become bowl eligible. I think it's doable if we're focused and can avoid the costly mistakes and big plays that have killed us for a large part of this season.
GO HOKIES!
Coaching is HUGE with lineman because technique MATTERS. I have a friend who played guard at 5'11" 220lbs. Granted, it was at MIT and they don't have FBS size but he was still "small". His performance was great because his technique was great. Granted, he's a smart as hell guy and that may make a difference too.
Yes, but even Settle wasn't physically ready to play his first year, nor will the incoming freshmen be. A Juco may be physically ready. That's what you're buying, especially at the line positions where it takes time in a college weight room to bulk up.
Mentally they won't. And in this defense, that matters (as you will see when I talk about Dax filling the wrong gap several times leading to him being replaced by Jaylin Griffin at points yesterday.)
Plug in- that was exactly the point I was making. Plugging short term guys which could be toxic to the ethos of a winning program in order to kind of be competitive 1) doesn't work outside of a couple of unique situations like West Virginia, Kansas State, and Mississippi State and 2) takes openings away for getting difference makers into the program who can be developed into filling those spots.
JUCOs are hit and miss. There have been some decent ones, even at VT. However, a graduate transfer at offensive or defensive line becomes available because THEY WERE NOT GOOD ENOUGH TO START AT THE PLACE THEY LEFT FROM, and instead of busting their ass to get better, they took an easy path, which, maybe my memory isn't so hot, but kind of runs contrary to the ethos you need to win in football. Quarterback is the exception to that rule because there is only one position that rarely rotates, so if you get stuck behind a monster good player, your options are limited.
UVA took the grad transfer route to shore up their offensive line two seasons ago, and those guys sucked eggs. There was a reason they weren't starters where they came from. I can't name a single defensive line difference maker since grad transferring became a thing.
A JUCO and grad transfer is a band aid, and doesn't build a program. At some point, you have to create a long term core and foundation. With the state the defense is in, I just don't see what kind of player could be available that comes in and creates a buffer to allow those other guys to mature and be ready to contribute. I think that they have to take lumps, build, and develop.
If a backup defensive lineman at Clemson or a backup offensive lineman at Wisconsin wants to transfer to Virginia Tech, odds are he's probably good enough to start for us.
JUCO/Transfers should be taken as a case-by-case basis. A lot of these kids just want an opportunity to play and showcase their talent. If it's a win-win for both parties, I don't see the issue. Obviously, if the kid is a bad apple, don't take him in. To make a widespread generalization about an entire group of student-athletes is asinine and a really bad take.
This hits a nerve for me because I grew up with a guy who had to transfer his senior year because his college coach told him he's not good enough to start. Turned out, his coach was wrong as my friend is a 4x Pro Bowler while the guy his coach chose is a fringe backup/practice squad player. Coaches make mistakes sometimes.
Simply put, if a guy can help us win games, then I want him on my team. We can have a JUCO DT come in and simultaneously develop young DTs. Tell the JUCO kid before he comes to Blacksburg that he has to earn the starting spot. If he's not good enough to beat out the young guys, then either he has to have a great attitude about being a backup or Fuente/Foster can show him the door.
Okay you can't throw this out here without naming the player. :)
Or at least giving a useful hint.
I mean, what are we gonna do from our keyboards, Google the guy to death?
His wife has more Instagram followers than he does.
Lol, are you friends with Russell Wilson?
He's from Richmond, checks out.
Russ also is a 4x pro-bowler, and the QB who replaced him at NCST in 2012 was Mike Glennon
Off the top of my head I can only think of 1 JUCO D lineman who was a difference maker, but he was a pretty big difference maker. Cory Moore. I know most of your concern are linemen, but we had a couple of safeties in the 00's who were JUCO guys that were good (Griffeth and another one I can't remember the name but he was drafted).
Kevin McAdam
Sorry French but I don't see any good DL in this recruiting class coming as true fresh or in past classs
Alabama has had a series of successful JUCO DL, including current DE who has 9-10 sacks Isaiah Buggs. Starting corner Saivion Smith is also a JUCO, although he is starting in Trevon Digg's injury absence. He was playing a lot before the injury though.
Maybe not the best examples because Alabama's discipline and player development is pretty much designed to take troubled players and turn them into stars, BUT you did ask for examples off the top of our heads.
Also Tennessee is getting starting reps from Last Chance U star Emmit Gooden (DT).
I qualified my opinion because of my myopic view of college football. I see way more of VT than anyone else. Alabama and Tennessee both play 3-4's where their DL is asked to stuff up two gaps. I think Bud's defense requires quicker processing than those schemes at the DL spot.
If VT could find a Nick Fairley type, that would be amazing. But, that kid really isn't out there and available, especially in the potential grad transfer ranks.
I think you'd be really interested to study some of Alabama's schematic alterations since 2014. Saban felt like he wasn't getting enough QB pressure after the CFP loss to Ohio State in 2014, and added a lot of hybrid 40 fronts with more one gap play as a result. They have way more plays in the backfield from their DL now. Quinnen Williams, undersized for a traditional 3-4 DT, has been an absolute terror for them this season.
You might not have the time to go down that rabbit hole, but I think you'd be intrigued by it.
Jarran Reed was also a JUCO, drafted second round, and is one of the better DTs in the NFL this season. Was a monster at Albama.
Ryan Willis may not be winning the Heisman, but I don't see quit in that guy. He and Peoples laid it all out there today.
True, but French qualified his hot take with "QB's don't count." Makes sense, there is only one position and if it's not you, go somewhere else.
I hear what you're saying, but to counter your point about jucos being quitters i'll bring up Jerod Evans. Got injured at Air Force, went to Juco, then set school records.
Then left probably against the advice of the draft committee and probably anyone else that knew anything about the NFL. VT, to Evans, was a stepping stone he didn't have a real connection to the university or the program. I think French kind of alluded to that. They aren't fully vested because they weren't "grown in the program".
It's still going to come down to the individual though. There are also guys like Stidham, Ryan Finley, and Michael Brewer that transferred and fully immersed themselves in the programs and became invested in the programs. I know for sure Brewer is still a Hokie, comes back for some games, and has built good relationships with his Tech teammates. That said there will also be the "mercenary" types.
True and GREAT examples.
You missed the point a bit:
JUCO's for the most part don't make up the most football savvy players. Evans wasn't exactly going through progressions like Joe Montana (hence his NFL flame out.) So, dummies.
Grad Transfers at DL generally are guys who weren't good enough, or weren't committed to making themselves better, to get regular playing time. You rarely find a guy who is a big time contributor on defense at one school and grad transfers to another. When you add that Bud's defense takes some time to learn, a grad transfer is merely a physically mature freshman with questionable want-to.
In the hierarchy of all things, I am less negative about JUCOs versus grad transfers. However, I think that there this team isn't structurally at a point where a grad transfer and JUCO plugged in heals the wounds we are seeing now. Build the kids up who know and are learning the system, and find more talented players to follow them. That is how the other programs who expect to win and hit really rough patches turned it around.
Understand 100% what you are saying and largely agree with your take on JUCO and Grad Transfers. Lets face it, if a Grad Transfer player was really that impactful, they wouldn't be coming back to school, they'd be going to the NFL.
My concern and issue is with what we currently have on the Roster and our recent Recruting history at DL positions, what are the chances we are going to see measurable progress in the next few years? Are we going to accept being steamrolled by every P5 team we play for the next 2-3 years until we hopefully develop enough players along the DL?
I'd love to have more Tim Settles, but we simply haven't been able to land those type of guys. Beyond Settle, I honestly cannot think of another DL of similar caliber that we have landed in years.
When I look at DT particuarly next year---Mihota and Walker gone and us kicking one of the guys who was supposed to be able to have an impact at DT because he didn't like to run--my simple question is who is going to play there? I just can't see how 1-2 JUCO players wouldn't have the ability to make next years defense better.
To my eye, our DL has been overmatched by every P5 team we have played this year (save FSU and maybe Duke) and I don't see much on the near horizon that is going to change that. Recruiting is obviously very momentum-based and I think its going to be very hard to even get high-level DL to give us a look if we spend another year giving up 500 yard rushing games to teams that barely break .500.
I know you made some sordid attempt to qualify it, but wait! Just who are you to call people dummies? Do you know the reason everyone ends up JUCO? Doubtful. Posters here have presented you with evidence that there are successes. And Fuente got out of Evans exactly what he wanted for that one season. Was Jerod a dummy to try and go pro? People are still debating that. Maybe Fuente with more time could have taught him more, but we cannot know. And just how many Joe Montana's are there? Were you drunk last night? With Evans only for one year, I will take those 10 wins over the 4-6 we are going to get this year. Some, if not most, here will call me a troll, but your arrogance sometimes just rubs me wrong, kind of like that Rock Hudson character in Man's Favorite Sport.
edit: wrong thread
I totally agree with French, JUCO and Transfers are no way to build a program. And I want to take this one step further. The issues we are having now can be pointed directly to misses in recruiting and lack of development some of which pre-dates Justin Fuente. Also, I've looked at some of the so-called 4-star recruits going back to 2008 and the number of players that just didn't pan out is mind-boggling to me (Caleb, Dew, etc). So far Devon Hunter falls in this category unless there is a serious plan to get him going.
You look at in-state recruiting in the top 10, we basically get the 10th guy, last year it was even worst. We're also not getting too many from DC Area or PA like we used to. off Course North Carolina looks good. but the point I'm trying to make is this boils down to 2 things recruiting quality of players that are continuously ready to play (next man up) and lack of Development.
On offense as far as this season goes, I don't blame our playmakers, there are definitely some issues on O-Line but overall its on the coaches. You got Ryan Willis with a hot hand taking the team all the way to the red-zone and they insert QP for 2 downs and the defense knows exactly what to expect. That is baloney, this is no time to experiment. Going back to the Vick years, our offense always seems to focus on that one player to shoulder it all, Kevin Jones, Tyrod, Logan Thomas and more recently Jerod Evans for the one year. We need these coaches to get our team to be more balanced, its unacceptable for one guy to try and do it all. There is no excuse for not having a run game. If a guys gets going, he goes off, Terius wheatley for the first half got some nice runs in and then all of a sudden disappeared, its weird and confusing what these coaches are calling.
On Ryan Willis - no he is not the perfect QB but he can do a few things, but drops in key plays, lack in protections and the stupidity of subbing him out are atrocious.
Maybe i'm in the wrong thread...but this is my rant
oh and the injuries on Defense, dont even get me there.
Not only that but it seems the only team that is disrupted by the QB change is our own.
This. Didn't really work with Glennon & Tyrod. Isn't working with Willis & Patterson.
Didn't work too well with Randall and MV5 either, just to pile on.
Oh and there are no DTs available in the JUCO that are willing to come to VT. SEC teams usually pick them up. I think we are after Deng from Independence at D-End. But as you can see Here there isn't much available.
Back in 2012, we complained about the O-line recruiting and with VIce we now said that this is the best our OL has ever been. I'm not seeing it, we can't snap the ball right, we can't block for our running backs, and count any other mistakes.
Our DT depth would have been better if Settle was still here. Mihota getting hurt doesn't help either. I thought Hewitt was serviceable and was actually getting better. But if you think its an issue now wait till next year when we don't have Ricky Walker nor Mihota. Hewitt is the only real experienced guy with any significant PT, someone will have to Step up.
And if you are all talking about Jerod Evans, he was actually the top ranked JUCO QB and the #7 overall JUCO player. So its not like we got someone just plug a hole or a band-aid, I really did wish he stayed another year at least so JJ could have learned from being a back-up.
Outside of Smith, the OL has been pretty good. This wasn't one of Nijman's better games. I thought Darrisaw was excellent again. I see nothing but money in that kid.
and it isn't offensive linemen missing those crack backs on safeties COUGH COUGH
My biggest issue with Darrisaw is that he isn't pee-hole blocking the defensive end to get his hands down on a swing pass.
And Nijman was sat down at times for Dzansi in this game.
You mentioned you thought this wasn't one of Nijman's better games. I have thought that Nijman was pretty poor all year. On the bright side, if they think Darrisaw is the future at LT, then getting Dzansi reps are RT is a very good thing.
Nijman was a disaster last year before his injury. In the 2nd half of the BC game, he was beaten on every single running play. Every single one.
Also, here is the top 50 list for 2019 Defensive Tackles and guess what, we have the 50th ranked guy verbally comitted to us. UVA has a top 5 guy, again serious depletion. Even if you got a 2-star, we're talking 2-3 years before any serious contribution.
I did not notice UVA has such a high rated DT recruit. I'm not sure how that slipped through the cracks but honestly, I don't follow their recruiting much, it's been pretty awful under Bronco so far. (I know they are right behind us this class but also have like 5-6 more guys and only have 1 blue chipper.
Which makes what is happening this season even worse. Bronco might have the least talented team in the ACC, and his guys have fully bought in.
No doubt, he's well on his way to making them like his BYU teams.
Ben smiley #28... Lovely. Apparently not a DT take for us... OK
Noticed Antoine Witner from IMG Bradenton is warm VT. 6-1 280
JUCOs are the CFB equivalent of turning in an assignment late for half credit. Yeah, you're still going to fail, but you need to do it or else you wouldn't bother in the first place.
Obviously we should have been recruiting DL way more than we have the past 2-3 cycles, but we can't wait 2-3 more years to have a functional defensive line. We need players now, regardless of JUCO or Freshman.
From the looks of it, we could have 4 Potential DTs who have committed so far, only one has the size to be able to play right away.
Ill be honest, im not following what you are trying to communicate at all.
There's a good read on the Athletic (Burying the Blue Funk by Rustin Dodd) about how recruiting too many JUCO's completely fucked up Kansas. Basically, Charlie Weiss recruited so many JUCOs at Kansas, that when they all left, Kansas had too many open scholarships that they couldn't fill. There were only 38 scholarship players on the team in 2015.
Obviously, this is an extreme example of roster mismanagement. But the point stands - JUCOs are good if they fill one or two holes on an otherwise decent team. If you have a ton of holes on team, you can't fill them all with JUCOs
Does the ACC still limit the amount of JUCOs a team may carry on their roster at a time? At one point I thought it was a pretty low number. There probably is a workaround, but it can't be too easy to do.
the limit is on non-qualifiers coming out of HS. that applies to some, but not all JUCOs
I don't understand this take whatsoever. I don't think anyone is suggesting we build our program around JUCO players or grad transfers. They're used to plug holes though. DL is the single biggest hole on the team. Why not see who is out there to help serve as a stopgap while the staff evaluates their recruiting technique?
Literally every big time program takes JUCO players. Are we too good for that? Of the committed top 15 JUCO players on 247, guys are going to Georgia (x2), Oregon (x2), Tennessee, Ole Miss, LSU, Penn St, and Nebraska. Do those schools not recruit well enough?
Adding JUCO players is a tool to improve talent and roster depth. I have no idea why VT (according to the OP) should be turning it's nose up at this practice. And since DL was cited, the #1 JUCO player in the country is a DE who is likely going to Alabama, and #2 is a DE going to Georgia - both places clearly known for DL play.
The Mullet would like to say something about that
I think there are several reasons for this....
Highly talented QBs get have a much quicker path to the field. most grad transfers go because they lost their job to another QB rated higher than them. the importance of the QB position causes the fan base for the back up, and the starter becomes the scape goat when a team struggles and goes to the bench. instead of sitting on the bench (not often has a benched QB ever won the job back) he transfers to a program that needs him. when have you EVER heard a fan base clamor for the back up DT or DE? DL guys have a relatively long leash. they already rotate snaps (QBs for the most part don't). 10-20 QBs get drafted every year, 100+ DL guys. So a good DL that would go somewhere else and be a good player or standout for another team as a grad transfer is better off just going into the draft. QBs who had some success but lost their job most likely aren't going to be drafted so its best for them to try and go somewhere else to try and show off their talent one more time. It just makes sense that you aren't going to find a good DL guy like that. your best bet would be finding a more HOKIE like guy. maybe not prototypical size but a good "twitch" and something to prove, plays with a ton of heart and effort, at best you can look to add depth through grad transfers and JUCO. YOU HAVE TO HAVE STARTERS FROM RECRUITING. injuries and suspension/attrition obviously obliterated any hope of that for this year.
Yea I don't think I agree with this at all. We have had too much attrition and we need bodies. Sure I would like to bring in young guys and develop them but some of them aren't ready to play. Bring in some JuCo players who have grown into their bodies and have extra years of experience, and if they are good enough to start, great... if not, then next man up! This isn't just about talent, its about depth as well. and we are lacking in both areas.
French, I agree with alot of your points but have to disagree here. Even though Bud's scheme can be counter intuitive I think that's a little overblown on the D line. Fill your gap, read where the line/ball is headed, fight to get back, contain/spill/make a tackle. Sure, there's more nuance than that but that's the general principal. I dont' think anyone is looking to build a team off of JUCO players however I think we need at LEAST 1 DT and Deng. I'd actually like to take 2 DTs. We've got players on the team that are tweeners that will never ever significantly contribute (looking at you Jimmie T and Fullwood) that are eating up DT roster space. I'm not convinced all of our 3 current recruits will either stick or become contributors until much later in their careers. Getting 2 stud DTs next cycle is a must as well. I'm actually OK with the long term development on our ends but if we don't backfill properly we'll be here again. I think we've got some young talent in the secondary that will just need to grow up quicker than we'd hoped. I'm not too thrilled with the coaching in the secondary with regards to toughness and I think our safeties have seriously regressed this year so I'm concerned with Nix and his pedigree as a coach. Mitchell, I'm 50/50 on. I'd love to poach AAR from Maryland as a DB coach.
That is a scorching hot take, especially the dummies/quitters.
I don't think you are wrong. But I don't think you are right in our situation either. Going the JUCO heavy route, as KSU did in the 90's, as Miss St has done in the past....or the transfer route, as Marshall and ECU are prone to do, isn't the route for VT. KSU and MSU have geographic advantages with the best JUCO's in their backyard. So they see them more, have better exposure. Both schools are also about as bad of a (traditional) recruiting team as there is in their conferences. Marshall/ECU goes heavy on transfers because their academics allow it. I don't know of any VT alum who wants to go that route.
But your point about these guys being band aids is accurate. VT has had a very mixed success rate on JUCO's. Bad: Jimmy Williams, Dmitri Moore.......Indifferent: James Griffin, Kevin MacAdam.........Good: Myron Newsome, Jim Baron, Corey Moore, Jerod Evans. Transfers also seem hit/miss, although I haven't seen Hazelton's relative success mentioned as a positive.
There is a secondary point here about JUCO's that is worth mentioning. VT is limited in recruiting JUCO's to those who qualified directly out of HS. We can't sign a JUCO who didn't have the HS GPA or SAT to get into college (non or partial qualifier). We can only recruit full qualifiers who went JUCO because of issues like injury or late-blooming. That's the case with Deng, for instance. He was a really good basketball player who didn't get the offers he wanted so he switched to football and now has major offers. In theory, any JUCO coming to VT isn't anymore of a "dummy" than a regular recruit. (of note, Jerod Evans was admitted to AFA, so he's not a dummy either)
But at DL next year, we could use some guys who can supplement Porcher, Hewitt, Kendricks, Pollard and Dorlus. Those are the guys we need to build up. But between Porcher and Hewitt, we will probably be lucky to have one of them ready to start and healthy for the whole year and we are currently depending on both of them. With the three Tr-Fr, it would be great if we only had to play one of them and if it was in a 2nd/3rd string role. Currently, we need all three of them. We need a JUCO/Grad or two just so we can build for the future appropriately.