All right, fam, I'm strongly considering going back to Tech for my MBA. I'm hoping to draw on the collective experience of TKP to help me out. I'm still very much on the fence as to whether it will actually be worth the expense or not. I've been with my current employer in finance for 6.5 years and I can honestly see myself retiring from there in 30 years or so. I've worked my way up the career path in a relatively short amount of time, and my next step would be VP/branch management, then district management, and then the executive level. Ultimately, my goal is to run this bitch and drag it kicking and screaming into this century.
So, on the one hand, I can absolutely see how an MBA would be beneficial to me and my career goals, but on the other hand, I've got 4 more years left to pay on my student loans and the light is at the end of the tunnel there and I really don't want to go back down that rabbit hole again. My employer does offer tuition assistance, but it's a measly $2500 per year. There is also an education bonus I would be eligible for, and it's annual, but it's not used to calculate merit/promotions, and it's really not much of a bonus when you consider how much the education itself would cost me. Basically, the monetary gain would not even come close to a return on my investment in the education.
If Virginia Tech offered an online MBA, I would apply in a heartbeat. Since they don't, I'm considering going the professional MBA route which alternates between Richmond and Roanoke each month, which would be completely doable for me. I'm in Raleigh, and both cities are relatively close for me. I am open to other options, and in fact Campbell University offers me a discount based on how many employees from my employer are attending at a given time, but Campbell is also a private university so even with a discount, I'm sure it's $$$$.
If anyone here could give me some insight or advice, I would appreciate it. Pros, cons, personal anecdotes, cake vs. pie, or other suggestions are also welcome.
Comments
UNC does an Online MBA, would you get in-state tuition if you went that route?
They do, but I don't want my hard earned money to go to UNC 🤔
I would assume she would like her degree to be worth her time/money. Not just something she could print off line/ get from paying to park/writing on a roll of Charmin.
That's true. I got my doctorate from UNC when I paid for parking at the football game in October. It was printed right there on the receipt
Remember their banner ad that said they were "The online program you probably can't get into"?
Fuck em.
I had considered getting an MBA at one point. My undergrad degree is in Computer Engineering and I have my own business. I talked to various people about their opinion on MBAs and how much they mattered. In talking to one of my cousin's friends who was a classmate of his at Wharton his opinion was that you don't learn anything in business school you can't learn from working. So the education part of it is kind of moot. He said one of the biggest benefits of graduate business school is the contacts you make and also if you enroll in a top program, the reputation of the business school.
If those two things are truly important how does VT's MBA program stack up? I don't really know. My impression is not very well.
You live in Raleigh and Chapel Hill (GASP!) is not far from you. UNC grads run the state of NC. I would say that if you plan on remaining in NC an MBA from UNC would be more valuable than one from Virginia Tech. Having said that, UNC is expensive but it is ranked #19 according to US News and World Report. UNC does have an online program that ranks high. Also in your neck of the woods is Duke, which is ranked #11.
Also, there are so many MBA programs out there now that unless you get a degree from a recognized leader it's probably hard for employers and others to tell the wheat from the chaff.
Just my $.02
agreed
I remember I was in a "Skip" level meeting with a VP once and someone asked him if they should get a MBA because they wanted to get into management. He basically said that he couldn't give a flying shit about MBAs and he'd only consider it if that was the only thing separating you from someone else. But then again, I work in engineering so it might be different in the business/finance world.
That's actually the attitude that my VP has about it. She's a 30+ year employee and started when she was still in undergrad at NCSU as a part time teller. She has never told me no when seeking a certification or educational opportunity, but she doesn't think it is necessary to move up in the company.
His opinion on it was you do it for two reasons.
1. You would want to anyway because it's something that interests you
2. You're looking to change fields/disciplines and want an easier time.
Your work and your peers are what they would look to if you were looking to move up. HOWEVER, I have a few friends where to move past middle management or even get there their company requires an MBA.
Leg for the oustanding username.
Is an MBA a barrier to reaching executive level in your company? I know a lot of people that have an MBA and are not executives. Instead MBA's have largely become a networking opportunity to further your professional career through those you attend with.
If it is a barrier then personally I wouldn't stop working to go back to school. Have you looked at Indiana's online MBA? I know a few people that went through that program and have had great comments.
good luck though!
It's not a barrier at all. I can still get to where I want to be without it. I did read through the employee handbook today to see if I can be reimbursed for non-degree certificate coursework, and I can IF the accredited university has their main campus in NC. So that narrows the field significantly if I scrap the idea of an MBA or related masters and go a different route.
I'd get a master's degree, but if my company wasn't paying for it, I wouldn't get an MBA.
And I'd only bother with an MBA from a top 20 program.
I say that having been admitted into the MBA program and taken some classes at University of Maryland, College Park, and later a school in Europe. At the time, the Maryland program was on some top 30 MBA program rankings.
Ended up with a masters from somewhere else that checks the box for all practical purposes at most employers. Frankly, most employers in the private sector (other than finance or marketing) couldn't care less about an MBA. You only need an MBA as a "ticket punch" to some jobs, and for those jobs you need it from a top 10 or top 20 school. Otherwise, it's just a way to liberate you from your or your employer's money. Some companies use it as a discriminator at promotion time, so find out if that's the case at your company.
If you really want an MBA, get it from UNC. It's a very well-regarded MBA program, and the people in your classes will be top notch. You'll learn as much from them as your professors. Otherwise, pick a different master's in a field that interests you. If you want to get ahead at your company, just work harder at whatever your company cares about, and read some management books. That will get you promoted faster than an MBA, and be a lot cheaper.
Does your company offer management training? If so, sign up for that. To get the $2500, does it need to be a degree program? Try and optimize based on what's covered by your employer's stipend.
I think you underestimate how many companies like to see MBA's, but I recognize that I am quite biased.
Have to second the UNC Online Recommendation - I have friend in it now, and it's designed like a full-time MBA program, just online. The classes are interactive, there's virtual socials and networking events, in addition to in-person socials and networking events in major metropolitan areas. They're put into teams and have virtual meetings, it's really innovative. Every other top program is watching kenan-flagler right now, will be interesting to see if the online model can create a strong network, similar to a full time program.
I've been there, and done that. If you're really interested in an MBA, get one. But don't go into a lot of debt over it unless you're going to a top 10 school and switching into a job that's going to pay a lot more than your current one. If you're doing it part time, ideally your company will pay for it.
There certainly is value in an MBA degree. I researched it religiously at one point, to the point of enrolling in two well-regarded programs, one in the U.S., the other in Europe, all paid for by my employer. Due to scheduling constraints, I never finished either program, but did end up getting a different masters degree. The MBA programs I attended had top-notch students, good professors, and good classes.
A good bit of it, though, is over-hyped. Unless you fit a narrow profile with regard to your abilities and goals, and unless you go to one of those top 20 programs (and possibly even if you do), you're spending a lot of effort and money chasing something you can get without it. The MBA program at most universities is a profit center, particularly the Executive MBA. The Executive MBA is designed essentially as a perk, and is mostly paid for by employers.
Getting an MBA isn't a bad thing, but as a pure value-play, I can't recommend it for most people who have to pay for it on their own.
You may have a different experience with it, and I'm open to your opinion. My experience was in technology consulting, and a masters in a technical field was just as good, or maybe better. The people at that level were all very smart, and it didn't matter if they had an MBA or not, though they typically had some kind of master's degree.
If you can get a scholarship or someone else to pay for it, the calculus is a bit different. It's an interesting degree, and certainly looks good on your resume. Whether it is critical may depend on the company you work for, but if it's important to them, they'll likely pay for it.
Edit: In thinking back on this, the one thing I did really like were case studies. Done right, they help teach problem-solving techniques. The first one should be "getting an MBA without going into a large debt over it."
I think we're on the same page, but I do want to clarify a little bit.
First of all, it 100% matters where you want to go in your career - remember, you're not paying for a degree, you're paying for a network. MBA grads almost always pick up the phone and respond to emails from current students or fellow alumni. Having an MBA basically takes the 'cold' out of 'cold call' any time you want to introduce yourself to an alum.
A lot of positions in Management Consulting, Product Management, Marketing, Strategy, and Banking/Finance prefer an MBA. That's not to say that an MBA is required - I'd compare it to flying cross country versus driving cross country - some people are able to drive, save money, and enjoy the ride, but for a lot of people who just want to reach this destination, it just makes more sense to fly. It's not to say that an MBA will guarantee you a position at one of these companies, but (assuming you go to a school with alum at that company) it will (basically) guarantee you a phone screening. From there, it's up to you to interview well.
If you're satisfied being a PM in the IT department of a non-tech company, or you just want to consult for a boutique firm or a firm that targets a specific industry, then there's no need for an MBA. However, if you want a PM job at Big Tech (FAANG/Microsoft), or you want to work at MBB/Tier 2-3 consulting firm, or a Goldman and the like, you almost definitely need an MBA.
IF you're targeting a career like these, you probably need to enroll in a full time program at a top 40 school (Most of the aforementioned firms, except Google and MBB recruit from select schools outside the top 20, so if you can land yourself at one of those preferred schools outside the top 20, you still have a shot).
As I said below, there's a lot of ways to get your (Full time) MBA paid for. As you (and others) mentioned in this thread, Executive MBA programs fund the majority of Business school operations, even though full time students create the majority of the value within alumni network. For this reason, schools tend to offer at least some scholarship money to 50-75% of full time students. In addition to get money from the school, if you intern with some of the more prestigious firms, and you earn a job offer at the end of your internship, a lot of them will reimburse you for your tuition (I know MBB, Deloitte, Google, Microsoft do this, and I hear Amazon is considering it, but given the volume of MBAs they hire, I don't think it will happen).
Finally, I would never pay for an executive MBA out of pocket. An Evening program I may consider, but it would depend heavily on the program. IMO, a carefully selected full time program is the only style program worth paying out of pocket.
I really like bar's flying/driving cross-country analogy, because it's the truth. You either pay your dues in years working at the same company or you pay your dues in the gobs of money/time it takes to get an MBA. It sounds like you can see your path to success in your current company and don't mind staying there for it. Therefore, I would not pay a dime for an MBA unless you see it being a roadblock to advancement in the future.
I currently work at a boutique consulting firm in the nuclear fuel market. I got the job straight out of college and have moved up several rungs in my almost 11 years here. Over the years, I have received offers from several of the global management consulting firms. All of them indicated that my lack of an MBA would be overlooked in lieu of my work experience, which is nice.
Good luck with whatever you choose!
It makes a LOT of sense to target the career/company you want, and collect the credential required on the way there. For graduate degrees, I'm a big fan of getting your company to pay for it if you're going to do it part time.
As for the flying/driving analogy, I'd say it's more like driving either way. One's in an expensive sports car, and one is in a sensible sedan. Unless you're pursuing a career where it's a prerequisite, they'll both get you there if you're smart, ambitious, and willing to figure it out and work hard. Companies reward the heck out of hard workers, even more than the highly-credentialed.
I'm a current MBA student at a top 25 school (VT ME --> Software Consulting (5 years) --> MBA, focusing on technology strategy/product management), so I've been through the decision/application process.
First, let's talk about what an MBA is. There's typically three types of MBA programs:
Next, it's important to understand why you get an MBA:
When it comes to paying, it's surprisingly easy to get a scholarship (compared to undergrad). First of all, there's a lot fewer candidates applying, and secondly, your application matters a lot. Your essays, your work experience, recommendations from bosses and coworkers, your GMAT, and your undergrad GPA are all considered by admissions departments. If you can excel in a couple of these areas, there's a good chance you'll get some help from the school. If you can excel in most/all, you could get a full ride + a mediocre stipend.
So, I would start by researching your superiors on LinkedIn. See their career history, if they got MBAs, if so what schools did they go to, etc. If every VP at your company has an MBA from a top school, then you probably will need one too. If they have online or evening degrees, that will probably suffice. If most of them don't, then you probably shouldn't spend the money to get one.
Question - have you talked to anyone about a potential executive path? If you're a fast riser at a company, and your goal is to be C-Level, then you should definitely talk to someone about putting together a 5+ year plan to get there.
Anyways, hope this was helpful. I went through this whole process pretty recently (including the determining the ROI part), so I'm happy to answer any questions for you.
bar1990 has provided some excellent information and guidance on the types of MBA programs and how to assess the type of MBA you might be interested in. As a VT MBA graduate - and it pains me to say this - I highly recommend that you look at other schools/options for an MBA. This has nothing to do with the quality of the degree and everything to do with expanding your network. If you really like your company as much as you say you do, then I second the recommendation to research the leadership to understand their networks to make them your own. You have access to the VT alumni networks through your undergraduate degree, an MBA is an opportunity to expand that network and learn to leverage both networks to drive toward your career goals.
I just had an interview with the #2 guy within the company on Monday, and he did comment on how fast I've risen and that I must be very driven to succeed. I am. Told him my goal is VP in 3-5 years, SVP within 10, and that I didn't see any reason why I couldn't continue to move up from there, and he agreed with me and said we actually need people like that in key positions. You mention soft skills and that is what I really need to be quite honest. It's been in my performance evals for years, because I'm blunt and no-nonsense, with very little patience, and sometimes that can come across as rude or disrespectful. I've improved tremendously in the last few years, but it will never be something that is second nature to me.
I have talked to my current VP and SVP both about my career goals and they are both very supportive and are both 20+ year employees, so they have a lot of influence where it matters. They've both told me what I need to do to reach my goals and an MBA isn't a requirement. Helpful from an educational standpoint, but not required. So you can kind of see why the ROI is a concern of mine.
There may be other ways to improve your soft skills. They are no doubt very valuable. My soft skills improved tremendously when I started my own business. The realization that how I communicate was as important as what I communicate set in very quickly.
Maybe there's some kind of coaching for this? Or even some kind of professional group that allow you to get practice and advice?
With regards to developing soft skills:
I'm sure there are hundreds of books on the topic, but I read How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie on a superiors recommendation before going into a leadership role and found it helped a lot. I already had pretty good soft skills, but this book helped bring awareness to certain aspects of communication and other people's perception of myself that has been really beneficial.
Excellent book. Still as applicable as when it was written.
So to summarize:
Looks like it's pretty clear that you don't need an MBA.
My advice (and I apologize if this is unsolicited) would be to continue to network through your company - try to schedule coffee chats with people in other departments (both peers and superiors), and try understand their contribution to the company, the challenges they face, their individual skills, their their goals. These conversation will help you understand the 'big picture' of the business, and help you develop a holistic understanding of the business. Obviously, growing network within the company will definitely help you when promotions or unique opportunities come up.
As far as your soft skills go, I don't think there's anything wrong with being blunt. The no patience thing is a little bit different. I'd recommend thinking about the people who have been great mentors to you (sounds like you have one or two of these people at your company) and think about how they helped you. I'd also think about the bad managers you've had, and think about exactly what made them bad managers. When a coworker makes a mistake or takes to long, pause, and think about how your mentors would handle it.
Also, spend more time listening than talking. It's tough to do, but I think you learn a lot more that way.
I agree with everything stated here.
Having a mentor at your company would be a good thing. Not necessarily a formal mentorship, but a senior role model at your company that you respect, can watch, and ask questions of here and there, in addition to your boss.
The energy spent running around checking the boxes for an MBA over three years has the potential of subtracting from your job rather than adding to it. I see you working your tail off to make your company a better place, and them making you CEO one day.
This is true. The time I spent working towards the CFP was stressful enough, because at the time, I was also pursuing all of the other licensures and certificates that are strongly recommended for the career path. My company has helped me build a pretty solid resume in the 6+ years I've been there.
Another path I could consider taking is to transfer internally to Branch Audit and stay there for a couple years to really learn the ins and outs of operations, but I'm afraid that could make me complacent. There is a huge disconnect between our support departments and those of us in the trenches, so to speak, and I don't want that bias to work against me if I go that route. An audit rotation IS a requirement to get to a VP spot, but it's just a 3-week rotation, not a complete transfer out of the branch.
My general advice for someone wanting to advance is to stay in the core business. Audit sounds like a support function. Do the rotation if necessary to gain an understanding but you always want to make sure you are part of the core business.
It's kind of like doing technology at a company whose core business is not technology. You become a "necessary evil" vs. an asset.
I agree with selhini.
Stay in the core business. Whatever is most important at your company is where you want to be.
A wise project manager for a power utility once told me, "The closer you are to producing steam, the more opportunities and beans you'll have."
I like this advice 99% of the time. However, I am old enough to remember Circuit City senior mangers and executives that thought their peers were insane for leaving the Goliath to work on the silly little "CarMax" project.
Counterpoint - I imagine the ones that pivoted to work on DIVX did not fare as well.
I was more referring to function. For example, going to CarMax's audit department would not be part of CarMax's core business but going into their selling or buying department would be.
When I refer to core business I am referring to the avenue through which an entity realizes income.
Going to CarMax or DIVX is more a matter of a strategic calculated risk. Sometimes they pay off, sometimes they don't
Going with a spin off is a different thing.
More of a higher risk, higher reward situation.
From this it sounds like what you would benefit more from a Business Leadership Training course. There is an excellent one at MIT as well as Harvard, Stanford, Yale, Northwestern and a slew of other top tier universities that come with a lot of upsides. There is even an Executive Masters in Leadership at Georgetown. Or I think you can take some executive training course with Thunderbirds in DC. These programs are less time, more concentrated in training goals and are specifically designed to make you a better leader in business.
I would strongly consider this over an MBA.
I'd agree with this.
There are some certificates (get one from somewhere prestigious) that look good on the resume, and are a LOT easier on your wallet. Not bad from a networking perspective. Again, a good number of the people in these are corporate sponsored, because they can get spendy for what they are as well.
Oh, and some kind of public speaking class, or possibly toastmasters.
Unless you're really driven towards the MBA as a goal in itself.
I didn't even know a Masters in Leadership was a thing. That might be exactly what I need. I'll have to do some more research on it, but that sounds really promising. Thanks!
Warning on the georgetown and thunderbird programs. they tend to be quite expensive because they are accredited degrees with a real world international component. Not sure what the certificate courses run but I suspect much less than the degree programs.
After doing some more research into different leadership programs out there, Thunderbird does offer an online masters of applied leadership & management. I've also been asking around to some of my peers and higher-ups to get a feel for what they think would be the most beneficial to keep my career on track to get to the C-level and it boils down to: accounting, decision making & strategy, finance and finance management, and leadership. The course of study touches on all of those, so I think this could be a huge win for me.
If anyone else has any suggestions that would cover those areas of study, I'd love to hear them!
This sort of thing does seem like the right fit for you.
Do it at the best school you can. See if you can weasel some reimbursement out of your employer or reduced tuition at the school.
This is an outstanding idea. As someone who looked at resumes and interviewed candidates at my old job, if I saw a Business Leadership Training certificate from one of those universities you mentioned I would be tempted to hold that in higher regard than most local run of the mill MBA schools (and I have a MBA).
Sup FlippinHokie? Two thoughts:
An MBA isn't an automatic ticket to upper management anymore, if it ever was. So definitely look before you leap. As the comment by bar1990 points out, MBA programs seem more about networking than skills. Prestige of the school matters. Online vs "executive" MBA matters.
Grad school is a business decision (no pun intended). You could hypothetically go to lolva for grad school and still keep your Hokie colors.
edit for disclosure: I don't have an MBA but looked very seriously at getting one at one point. Anything could happen, but right now my career is at a point where an MBA could potentially help me advance but at the same time probably wouldn't be worth the investment/sacrifice.
Agreed, and it wouldn't be a leap into executive management at my company either. They value hard work over anything. We're a non-profit and our biggest thing is making sure we do the right thing every day. Most of the execs don't have more than a 4 year degree currently, so it's definitely not something that I would have to have. I really just need to decide if the cost is worth it to me, and I'm not sure that it is. Buuuutttt I can also see the value in it beyond the cost. So that's where I'm stuck now.
Quick question with respect to seeing the value.
Can you list the value you perceive and then directly relate that to your success in the future?
For example.
An MBA from X school provides Y benefit. Y benefit positively affects my career in Z way resulting in W.
If at any point the pass from X to W becomes nonsequitur you may need to reconsider your perception of that piece of value.
From what you stated thus far there does not seem to be a direct connection between your success in your current job and an MBA regardless of school.
Good points NCHokieMan.
I'm at an international company and an MBA has little to no value. Our Executive Committee (EVPs) were all selected by our Board of Directors to represent parent company interests (French and Dutch joint-venture).
I've considered switching companies and considered getting an MBA, but the entire field seems to be run by close-knit management teams put together in similar fashion (smart colleagues from projects with previous success, or from a parent company.) Soft skills and networking is valued most.
Sales is a great place to build these skills, along with getting paid and encouraged by the company. I was in technical sales for 6 years for several companies, and noticed sales personnel always had the opportunity to "sell themselves" as well as the company (reputation/product).
Even when I've seen MBA's lead to management, it usually isn't a direct route. I've seen several Rice MBAs pay their dues at Consultancies for a several years, then get placed into management for newly-formed companies or mergers.
Short answer, I would recommend Sales and networking (industry conferences, panels, regional associations) over an MBA.
Disclosure: I'm in oil and gas exploration in Houston, considered getting an MBA in the past, but at 5-10 yrs from retirement don't see the ROI. I'd rather use the evenings to work on my Jiu-jitsu. :)
In the Campbell MBA program right now. It's about $760 per credit hour and the program is for about 36 hours, which comes out at about $27,200.
VT advertises their out of state MBA at 62k. So while 27k is nothing to scoff at, Campbell is a competitive rate. Though that's not factoring in VT's >>>> prestige
I am taking it full time, but I know they let you take up to 5 years to get through the 2 year program if you want to spread out classes/$$$. They also offer classes in downtown Raleigh, Buies Creek, or online with 2 sets of 8 week courses per semester.
Even though Campbell is a private school they usually go out of their way to make it close to the cost of an In-state public school.
I was in Buies Creek last summer for Trust School! Of the local options I've considered, Campbell definitely is on the short list, so I'm glad to hear that it is actually an affordable option. Affordable in that I wouldn't owe more for the degree than I owe on my house at any rate.
I just finished my MBA at William and Mary through their Flex Program which was a couple of nights a week and they had a graduate center in Newport News (I live in Virginia Beach). I considered my beloved alma mater for an MBA but VT didn't have online and I would have had to drive to Richmond. William and Mary now has an online program and I cannot more highly recommend the program, professors/faculty and staff. It was a great experience and is a world class (top 20 MBA) program. There are also 1,200 local Executive Partners who are sitting or Emeritus "C-Level" people you can reach out to and be mentored by which is fantastic. The question to also consider is that you are fairly young it would seem so you really only "think" you know what your future will look like. An MBA is a great tool to have in the event that you want to start your own business by yourself or partner with others someday. My advice is to invest in yourself and go for it. You work in finance so you will be able to pay off loans with savvy decisions and future higher income. P.S. Funny story; some UVA grads in the program being themselves after finding out I was a Hokie......I said, "You know Thomas Jefferson went here right?" and the UVDouche response was, "We know, that's why he started UVA because he thought he could do it better". Go Hokies, Go Tribe!
I'll say I was always pretty impressed with William and Mary.
Small classes, not too expensive as I recall. Regional, but people know the program.
This is fairly unrelated but going back to school at an older age is interesting because you find yourself getting to class earlier than you did as an undergrad which leads to other students thinking you are the professor on the first day of class.
To be fair though, MBAs skew older. The exact age range depends on the school but Duke for example I believe has an average age of 35.
Do you have a business undergrad? If so then most MBA programs would be redundant.
My wife got her MBA while working for a bank. She was a bank officer (one step below VP), but she was in HR. Her MBA was focused on HR and she had a psychology undergrad. She mainly did it for job pivot and stand out on resumes. The Director of HR was a VP (note banking so not "VP of HR", it was "Director of HR/VP") so unless the director retired my wife had no chance at VP, the Director didnt have and MBA. Do I this bank it didnt matter but that's not every bank. My wife aunt also works for the bank and she over sees all branches in VA and DMV and she has no master's or business degree.
Would you get paid more with a masters? what is the value of the MBA versus the cost? Personally I couldn't stop working to go back to school I like money too much. If you want to rise through your company then networking doesnt help as much (except having other companies try and steal you).
Some times soft skills are way overrated, being blunt in getting the message across isnt always a bad thing. Now I am in engineering so the upper level of soft skills is just thrown out. But if a space craft is going to blow up if an O-ring gets too cold then you dont bury that in a presentation you put that as the heading and tell people never to do launch in bad conditions.
Have you taken the GMAT already? Depending on your GMAT score a lot of schools will offer significant scholarships, reducing the financial cost but not the opportunity cost.
Also want to reiterate that you should explore programs in addition to VT. As others have mentioned, being in Raleigh, UNC should be on that list.
I have not taken the GMAT. So if I do anything, it will likely be Fall 2020 before I actually enroll anywhere. I will need significant prep for the GMAT. My math skills are not too good. Calculators have made me dumb.
Fall 2021 is more realistic. Round 1 applications are typically due in December/January, and round 2 tends to open in February. Even if you go in and just kill the GMAT, you still have to select your schools, and write a variety of essays.
I would have done better out of high school on the GMAT, I didnt do terribly, but there was a good amount of geometry, basic calculus word problems that I just hadnt done in a long time...
William and Mary offered a GMAT waiver and I am sure that other schools do as well. They base it on your profession (Accounting etc, Your Undergrade courses/grades OR your experience in the field of business). If you are not strong in Math (like I was not/Textile Science undergrad at VT) they give you a take-home test to evaluate you along with your waiver request. They also offer an MBA math course that you can take in the event that you are not a great math student or have been out of school for awhile. There are work-arounds. Good luck to you.
my BIL worked for clayton homes as an internal auditor. They covered the cost of his online MBA 100%. Two weeks after he graduated, he parlayed that into a similar job at Marriott. They liked that he had his MBA. Clayton wasn't too happy about it...
Fast forward 5 years, multiple promotions, and moves within Marriott and he's quit the corporate world altogether and does small business accounting on his own. Not sure what the MBA is doing for him now.
I have an MBA from *ducks* Florida State. All kidding aside, I was really happy with the program and what I got out of it. One of the main reasons I did it through FSU was that they were one of the few AACSB accredited programs out there at the time that were fully online and reasonably priced. (I traveled quite a bit during my schooling, so I really needed a fully online option). Researching schools that checked all three of those boxes was very difficult.
For me as an engineer, I enjoyed learning a lot of broad business topics and even commercial real-estate. Everything other than perhaps Statistics was new for me, but nothing was really overly difficult (although I really disliked Accounting). I will say that my brother and sister just got their MBA's (both had business degrees from Tech) and didn't think there was a ton of new learning material in their programs. I've heard that same sentiment from other people who have a business degree undergrad and an MBA.
Being completely honest, I haven't seen an immediate payoff yet, but I've only been out of school for 6 years. Also, a lot of the online and flex programs are structured for middle managers who have been working for a while, which makes the curriculum a little more relatable. In your case, I think your background will set you up very nicely for one. I was only a year out of engineering school when I started mine, so a lot of the case studies that wanted you to use real world examples from your company weren't as relevant at the time.
Also, I think it can be a nice 'check box' for management later down the road. Many of the executives in my company have one and my last company required an advanced degree in business to be in those roles. Also, my company's tuition reimbursement was $8,000 a year which made it very little out of pocket expenses.
I realize this was a scatter-brained response, but in summary, I'd go for it if you want to keep climbing. It certainly won't hurt. As far as the tuition, look for a program where you can stretch it out if you don't mind taking your time. Many of my classmates took 3-4 years instead of the accelerated route due to either minimal or no tuition reimbursement from their companies. Try just doing one class a semester (3/year) and you'll save a lot of money and have a lot more free time. Good luck and Go Noles! (again, kidding)
I agree with the prestigious program comments and wish I had applied to any of the top schools rather than go the local college route as my MBA from Murray State only has "check-the-box" value. I also went to B-school to try to meet some people my age when I moved to a new town and considered the degree a bonus. I smoked the GMAT and graduated with a 4.0 [not sure if this says more about me or more about Murray State], I really should have aimed higher and would have a better bang for the bucks.
I got my MBA a few years ago - and an undergrad in business from VT. Were probably around the same age - I am 30.
1.) It has definitly helped get me interviews and positions I otherwise had no business being considered for
2.) I went full time, so the networking aspect of it I think is just as beneficiary as the education or degree
3.) I learned a lot about business strategy on a much deeper level - its probably bought me a few years of hands on experience, or at least, has allowed me to look at my years of experience in a new light.
4.) I would say I see things in a broader, more strategic picture than my peers - and its not just me, I am not that smart, its the perspective I gained. I am still young, also in marketing, and many times creative marketing - so my experience could be unique, typically I am the only one in the room that has strategic experience other than executives. Again, I am not that smart - but the fact that executives look to my opinion often falls back on my MBA solely.
5.) I got school grants - scholarships and graduate assistantships so my loans are minimal, without them, I dont know if financially it would have made sense at this point, but probably would have paid off down the road.
On the otherside,
1.) It was frickin hard - I struggled at times, the workload gets really heavy
2.) As people have said, I dont know if its financially as beneficial as maybe it once was, but also, insert "Old Economy Steve" meme - either is an undergrad, or even experience for that matter, so...take that for what its worth.
Good luck
Also second this. Just curious, what level program did you go to?
I went to a small school outside of Pittsburgh called Carnegie Mellon...
jjustttttttt kidddingggg
I got my MBA from college of charleston.
Just to throw my hat in the ring, it sounds like an MBA would be a waste of time and money for your situation. Some sort of business leadership training sounds like it would be much more valuable in your situation. It sounds like at your organization that hard work, people skills, and dedication are worth more than the fact you attained an MBA.
You already have done the toughest part - the "B" part. You know what your business is, does, and what you want it to be. So many people pursue an MBA in "anything"- just get the MBA, and that is the wrong approach, in my opinion. Good luck to you.
MBA doesn't stand for Masters of Business Anything?
*Master of Bullshitting Anyone
Late to the party.
If you're paying out of pocket it's only worth it if the school (likely top 25) is able to place you in a job with significant upside to what you currently make and that the ROI of the program is worth it. Or your current employer requires it to reach a certain level. (again ROI)
I got my MBA at Columbia with goal of getting me the F out of the DC consulting rat race and into a tech startup out west. 100% got me my job (network + school cred) and was worth the money (read ROI), but would not recommend to anyone not meeting criteria above.
Ungodly expensive and not worth it for education alone.
THIS.
This is why you get an MBA, and why you do it at a prestigious program. It's a transition tool, but you need to know exactly why you're doing it and be willing to put in on the line.
Yeah NYC wasn't cheap either. Oh and why not double down on that risk by going to an SF based tech startup getting paid sh$t cash and banking on an equity payout while you bleed cash through your eyeballs on rent.
Sometimes I question my sanity.
Life is taking risks.
If you're smart, calculated ones with a possible payout.
Got my MBA from ODU (I know I know). Just finished last August, but it immediately helped me with a pay adjustment at the end of the calendar year. Outside of that, the benefits are TBD for me. My company footed the bill for probably 90% of my expenses, otherwise I definitely would not have gone through grad school. My motivation was purely for "check the box" purposes. It was difficult for me and took a ton of work, but at the end of the day I am proud I have it. Its also nice knowing I have those two extra lines on my resume under the education section
At one point I thought about getting out of the tech field and becoming a financial adviser. In doing so I did research on the overlap of education needed for a CFP and/or CFA with an MBA. I found that for the pure financial education an MS in Finance would have been better and the MBA was very broad even with choosing a concentration.
So another question. Aside from the soft skills, would having more in-depth knowledge of finance or economics help you?
I have my CFP, paid for 100% by my employer. And I can definitely say that was money well spent and worth every minute of the stress and hard work and occasional tears it took to get. I feel like I have a very good handle on the finance aspect. However, I wouldn't rule out a masters of finance or economics. But I do think I would gain more from something that would give me an edge as a leader within my company and enable me to be an effective manager.
Great job on the CFP.
Here's my take on leadership:
Let's start with leadership. Leadership and management are not the same things. I manage my company but I also lead people for my customers where I am not a manager. Management is about the appropriate allocation of resources. Leadership is about inspiring confidence. Sound too simple? Think about it. Leaders inspire confidence in their employees, in their organization, in their mission and in themselves. That confidence goes a long way. I'm sure there are plenty of academic definitions of leadership but the way to learn is to do it. If you don't have the opportunity to start doing it where you are, join an organization that needs people to lead. I'm not discounting the value of a certificate but having actual positions under your belt is probably as valuable if not more so.
I'd be happy to share what I have learned over 20 years in my career, though I don't think I should do that here. My Twitter address is in my profile.
Regardless, I like that you are motivated and that's actually a very important aspect of leading.
Thanks, I just might take you up on that! One of my peers told me recently that I have taken the "kick the door in" approach to getting where I want to be. He's not wrong, I'm just not sure if that's the most flattering description of me, but hey, whatever it takes, right? And since I have
n'tbeen pretty careful not to achieve my success at the expense of anyone else, I think it's working okay for me.That approach described me at one point. A lot of it depends on the culture of your company and industry.
In some industries kicking in the door is what it takes. In others, it is career limiting.
You can moderate a bit but don't change who you are.
Be nice, but you do you.
Turns out, posting on TKP when at work during tax season will get after you. My previous comment should have read that I haven't stepped on anyone else to get to this point. If anything, I've dragged some peers kicking and screaming along with me.
I don't have any input, other than to say that if you are going to be spending significant amounts of time in Roanoke we will drag you out to drink. Mrs CBRDOG does have some relevant experience:
Ok, so I am a member and graduate of the pilot PMBA program at VT. Industrial engineering undergrad who graduated in 2004. Joined the PMBA in 2006. My employer paid for about half of it through the tuition assistance. I got the pay raise in my current position but did not get any other immediate bump. However, I loved the program and would do it again if I had the choice. I recommend finding friend with different skill sets..... I did math homework and had friends who write papers. Part of the professional networking!
I mean, we could find the time to come to Roanoke to drink regardless of if I do the MBA or not! I'm coming up for the Duke game by the way. Danny Coale is my Spirit Animal can't make it, so I'm going to make use of his ticket. I'm almost positive that there will be a rail involved, and probably against my will.
Also, thanks for sharing your experience about the PMBA. This thread was hugely helpful for me in general. I think I've ruled out an MBA in favor of some other type of advanced degree or just sticking to the path I'm already on and working my way to the penthouse suite from there.
Ooh ooh me next!
I have gleaned some important tips from this thread but figured I'd ask my own question since hey its the off-season and I'm sure many of you are as bored as I am.
Me: 30, (Edit: should have said I got a PSCI BA at VT in 2011), currently working at a small consulting firm in Arlington. I worked in SAAS/marketing sales for a few years and then went to work in sales/marketing consulting for a decent sized firm that was acquired and then my division was subsequently carved out. I do project management, client management, account management type work with some light data analysis but my "hard skills" are limited and I don't see a future for myself (or necessarily this new firm). I've been applying to some of the larger consulting firms in the area as well as a few other big names, in part because I've thought about an MBA and many of them provide tuition assistance.
I'm mostly looking at grad school/MBA as a way to skill-build, "invest in myself", and boost my resume because I fear with my degree, and limited experience I'll struggle to climb the ladder. Seems like this thread is suggesting that isn't the best idea but I'm a bit at a loss as to how else to make myself stand out and improve my long term career prospects.
There are a couple of questions that make a difference here.
The answers to those questions will help inform which paths you could consider.
1) Not necessarily, though my non-sales experience is in consulting for sales-recruitment and I think Human Capital is a good place for me based on my skills/personality.
1) After selling and cold-calling for ~4 years, I would only be open to going back into it in an Account Management type situation. Building my own book of business, which is unfortunately what most companies want, is just not for me.
I'll be brief since my other posts above detail this, but I'll reiterate - This is NOT the purpose of an MBA. The purpose of an MBA is to give you a network that will help you climb the ladder, or jump to a different ladder. You definitely grow as a person, and your thought process will improve, but it's a byproduct of the experience, not the main purpose.
As far as 'boosting your resume' - your network will help you get an internship/first job. Those experiences will set you up for success (in addition to you continuing to use your network).
Networking/climbing the ladder is what I'm interested in ultimately. My concern is that with a PSCI major and relatively nebulous work experience it will limit my upward mobility.
Maybe wasn't clear in my OP, I graduated 10 years ago (probably not clear with how I typed it) and have been in the workforce ever since.
What do you want to do?
I don't know that I have a great answer to that question.
My original plan was to go to law school after college but I ended up doing two terms of AmeriCorps before joining the workforce as an individual contributor, selling SAAS software and then marketing packages to hotel management companies. It was likely mostly the company I worked for but that experience has me leery of rejoining the sales world. I do enjoy some aspects of selling, and my strengths lie in presenting, building relationships, managing clients etc. but long term I'm not sure how comfortable I am with a variable salary.
So, I've been working in a capacity that is technically considering consulting but is more related to managing a portfolio of clients through on-boarding and training clients, data analysis and presentation, project and product management, as well as client retention and technical sales support for the product that I'm responsible for. I enjoy what I'm doing and think this *type* of job is good for me long term, but I wasn't prepared to be a part of a startup and the salary/benefits/future prospects are limited at such a small firm.
Then get your PMP.
That will help you get another similar job at a larger company. You need a faster solution than an MBA.
I'd do some soul searching to figure this out before making an investments (financial or otherwise). Took me about 2 or so years of learning about different career paths, thinking about what I was already good at, and what I wanted to get good at before I was ready to really dive into the business school application process.
just my experience with friends' jobs and titles but sounds like you are more of a Product Manager, and so a PMP might not be what you want to look at. If you have experience you should be able to find a similar position at maybe a more stable company. Maybe do a quick job search for that title to see if those descriptions sound like what you are looking to continue to do, just maybe somewhere else. And my friends that have that title, had eventually gotten MBAs.
You sort of sound like a technical sales/technical account manager.
How are you at sales? That may be the easiest route if you're so inclined.
Otherwise:
1) What are you best at?, and
2) what is your passion?
3) who are your clients, and are you invaluable to them?
Project management is a relation-building profession. An MBA is a good credential in your case, but may not be a game changer, really.
If you're a PM, a PMP certification from the PMI is a nice (and cheaper) credential to have.
This is also true, and more and more a requirement.
Something that I've also considered, but I know far fewer people who have taken this route so I haven't had a chance to learn as much about it.
Oh, yeah, I do that FIRST. Your company will probably pay for it, and it makes you a lot more in demand, particularly if you're in the Washington D.C. area.
Though that may be changing. Agile and PMP are basically incompatible. That doesn't stop people from trying to make them compatible and do "hybrid agile/waterfall + PMP" then proclaim agile doesn't work. Don't get me wrong, agile isn't right for every organization and/or problem.
I'd get whichever one of these was a) easiest to attain, and b) that my company would pay for, and c) that's useful for my company. In that order.
I was just thinking that a certificate in Project Management is a lot quicker/cheaper than an MBA.
A lot of good comments here already but if you're in Raleigh and thinking about it I would suggest looking at NCSU. I looked at it a while back and it's relatively solidly ranked and like $50k compared to well over $100k at UNC and Duke.
I see it differently. Given her stated objectives, I'm not sure an MBA is really worth it for her.
However, If she were going to invest the $50K and a lot of time and effort for a lifetime association, she should put in the extra $50K and go with either UNC or Duke.
Yes, I'm saying that the UNC or Duke association is what she would actually be paying for, and that it's worth the premium paid.
Outside of the prestigious programs, it's a different value proposition.
This is pretty much my opinion as well. For some areas it seems like it doesn't matter what your degree is or where you got it from. You did the thing, checked the box, and that's all that matters. MBAs do not seem to be one of those areas from what I've observed. There's a dramatic difference between getting an MBA and getting an MBA from [insert prestigious institution here].
Anecdotally I've noticed the opposite for MBAs. Most people I know that got them was just to "check the box." Either because it was a guaranteed salary bump or promotion. Some were that to get to the next level the employer would only consider people with MBAs. But that's just talking to friends, family, and coworkers. My best friend's mom got one from some cheap, awful online school because executive leadership passed her over for a manager position just because that box wasn't checked.
I don't doubt that there are many scenarios where quality and prestige matter, but from what I've seen most is just "Do you have one? Y/N" and if no then your app goes in the round filing bin.
It really goes back to what kind of MBA you get:
I think I'd add that a top 10/top 25 MBA program checks a different kind of box.
Great thread, lots of knowledge from current leaders and obvious passion from our future leaders
I'd like to input my own question to this thread. I'm a resident physician who isn't totally in love with practicing medicine but love the aspect of helping others. My goal is to work hospital/healthcare administration and wonder if an MBA would help my resume. I've spoken to several current CEO/CFOs of health systems (from 100 employees up to several thousand) and they've said an MBA helps but that my experience practicing will be a huge driver.
I intend to work in WV so my question is over where to go for an MBA. Does it make sense to stay in state (wvu or Marshall) or pursue the "G7" schools?
HSL, I work in healthcare for Anthem and do Data Analytics and Informatics which is HUGE currently in your profession. My PCP just left full-time clinical practice in Virginia Beach to head up Health Data Informatics in Philly and it is a big deal now in healthcare. You have the clinical so an MBA would help you immensely. Many of our C-level executives are MDs and make a boatload as their base salaries but where they make the big bucks is in stock and bonus packages..........Rock it out Doc! I posted earlier in the thread that I am undergrad VT in Textile Science and just finished my MBA at William and Mary.
My wife works in healthcare management. She is a department director over 2 hospitals in a fairly large heathcare system. They require that level manager to have a grad degree or be working on it. Her boss is a VP that is a MD, no other degree. Many MDs in her organization have transitioned into executive level management. Not sure the MBA is worth the money for that switch either. I would suspect experience and leadership ability would be worth more.
The important degree there is the MD.
So after the majority of comments, it doesn't sound like you need the MBA to continue moving forward where you are but you do think that it would be beneficial to improve your "soft skills". If that is the case, then I wouldn't worry about the prestige of getting those lessons and look for what fits your life and schedule and can likely be found at much more reduced costs.
I was in a similar position awhile back and while I ended up doing my MBA eventually through George Mason, that was about being able to transition easier from contractor to government employee more than it was about improving my skill set.
One of the first things I did though was evaluate the local community college, for me NOVA, and see what they offered to help my soft skills. I decided it was worth my time to take part in their Leadership Development Career Studies Certificate, which consisted of six hands on classes of a couple days each from this list.
Introduction to Business
Principles of Management
Principles of Supervision
Organizational Behavior
Business and Professional Communication
Writing for Business
Leadership Development
Cooperative Education
Human Resource Management
of these I chose to take Principles of Supervision, Organizational Behavior, Business and Professional Communication, Writing for Business, Leadership Development, and Human Resource Management
The two that probably benefited me the most were Business and Professional Communication and Organizational Behavior. Those two classes really gave me a reality check into how I presented myself to others and how I could look at my organization to identify areas I could improve or projects that I could suggest that might improve the workplace as a whole, which in turn made my leadership realize I was looking at the opportunities available to be a long term building block of the organization.
The six classes cost me a total of like $1200 but probably worth as much or more than any course I took at my MBA program.
I think it might be worth your time to evaluate these potential opportunities near you, even if you decide to get those classes at Duke, UNC, NCSU.
Take all the advice above, but above all else - if you think that it is worthwhile then you should find a way to get your master's. A lot of points where made about not needing a MS or MBA to succeed, and that is a true statement. It just depends on your measurement of success. Case in point - I'm 16+ years in to my career and have been told multiple times I don't need a master's degree. But, I wanted the challenge and I wanted a fresh academic perspective on my industry instead of chasing certifications, so I enrolled in the VT MIT program. My decision was greatly influenced by the financial support I'm getting form my employer, but it wasn't the deciding factor.
I understand the desire to get the MBA from VT, but you're in the state of North Carolina. It's been a few years, since I lived there but regardless of what we think of a degree from that institution, 90% of the people in NC see it as a premium over virtually any other school (never said NC natives are too bright). The MBA is a check mark in a box. It gives you an advantage over people who don't have one, for internal promotions. Lack of one is also an easy way for a prospective hiring company to eliminate you from employment consideration, if you ever find yourself searching for a job.
Since you have significant work experience, go the path of least resistance (cost being a major resistance factor). Even if that means on line degree from Liberty (though that may bring other issues, since people have a very binary response to that institution).
100 comments into this thread and no one has touched this bit about cake vs pie. So here. I made a pie chart. About cake. And degrees.
I know we're joking here, but my eye still twitches everytime I see a 3D pie chart
Also #TeamPie
I like how cheesecake is the most serious... Is it all cheesecake or just salted caramel cheesecake?
☝️She's asking the hard hitting questions
Would you expect anything less?
Based on this chart, you need more training in making charts.
Maybe an MBA could help with that, or at least make you more confident while not really improving your charts. It certainly has worked this way for others.
The joke is on you because he already has an MBA 😂
I've got that covered.
Ask your seniors what is needed to advance. What does the company need? It may be leadership skills or some technical knowledge or skills.
Take the money you would spend on the MBA and invest in an online class on building a business that makes money online, i.e. dropshipping. Focus your time energy and efforts on that and retire from your career, if you want, in a much shorter time frame than 30 years.
"Plastics."
"Lithium"
"Synergy!"