Liberty has hired Hugh Freeze to replace Turner Gil as head coach.
Link: http://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/25476184/former-ole-miss...
Hugh Freeze was fired by Ole Miss in 2017 for a series of personal misconduct issues, including recruiting issues and prostitution. Is there are more perfect hire for Liberty than Hugh Freeze?
Also, what kind of impact should we expect Freeze to make on our program, specifically through recruiting?
Edit: For additional detail.
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Comments
I think Liberty would be a hard sell for any athlete of note. So IMO very little.
I don't disagree that Liberty is a hard sell, but what is it in your opinion that makes Liberty a hard sell?
Sex isn't allowed makes it a damn hard sell.
Considering they hired an AD that essentially helped cover up rape, it would be pretty routine for him to take a step down to helping cover up consensual sex.
They just hired a guy who is known to appreciate the occasional prostitute to be the leader of the football team and the man who over saw Baylor athletics during their scandal is the AD... I don't think they actually value celibacy for the unwed.
I totally agree, its a huge hypocrisy based on what the school supposedly stands for and their rule that you can't have sex there.
I don't think they value any morality at all.
I'm a LU grad and trust me, when there's a will, there's a way. It may not be the "standard" but those are still 18, 19, 20 year old kids with raging hormones.
Totally agree. Just pointing a rule of the school.
Meh... BYU has some pretty strict student behavior rules too...followed or not, the rules are in place at both schools. The BYU football program is relevant.
Yes because they have an entire state for a long time they basically ran. Now they have a easy inroad to a lot of west coast and Pacific Islander demographics. Also usually had players several years older starting compared to peers because of missions.
Also athletes can live off campus after one year or two years I believe. Anything can happen off campus.
That athletic department is really a piece of work. But does it really come as a surprise that this is the man they hire?
They won't affect our recruiting in the slightest
I think Liberty's recruiting will be comparative to that of ODU a few years ago when they moved into the C-USA and were swiping a handful of those Virginia/757 kids. Freeze was an ace recruiter at Ole Miss (of course we later found out why) so I'm thinking he will be a thorn but not a PSU level thorn whatsoever.
Liberty has insane facilities and can keep throwing money at whatever they damn well please. The rules you see don't always imply to football players. My wife went to a party that football players were hosting once and there was plenty of alcohol. It's not the hard sell you think it is. They also have some big time games coming up to sell to players.
TLDR is they could potentially be an issue, but no more than ODU. Our sights should be set higher than the guys that would go to LU and we have much more to sell IMO.
I agree with this for the next 10 or so years. The problem I see is what you mentioned.... the money. Eventually, with enough time I can see them having facilities nicer than ours across the board and making the move into a higher tier conference. I'm not worried about them now, but their financial assets and willingness to muddy the moral, ethical and even legal waters to make a name for their athletics programs could see them find success in the future.
Good points all around. The insane thing is they make all their money from owning property. It's not even a donation thing. People just give them real estate that they lease out. They own a few strip malls, the new Hobby Lobby, our main mall (except the movie theater). It's insanity.
That's pretty interesting way for the school to get $$$.
Does Liberty have more money to put into football than VT?
*ducks*
But seriously, do they?
I can't say for certain but I would be willing to bet that yes they do.
I'm sure they do too. And since they are private, they are not bound to the same financial disclosures as Tech and other public universities.
They also turned into an online diploma factory and can basically print money by virtue of having 110,000 students.
110,000 "students"
Pretty sure I heard that the 110,000 figure includes many people that haven't actually taken a class in years. While they certainly have a lot of students, the official figure is inflated.
Yeah that wouldn't surprise me, but whatever the real number is, it's a pretty significant revenue stream that operates at a low cost.
I think their 80.000 online students might disagree with you on the source of Liberty's money.
The issue with them will always be having an impressive enough schedule. That is their hard cap on national success even more than money or recruiting.
Few P5 teams are interested in scheduling them for more than a pay game or with any regularity, so constructing a sustainable schedule and balancing that with ways to bigger and bigger bowls will be a big hurdle while they are still independent. Remember they had to play New Mexico State TWICE this year! And for the next 5-6 years the only P5 teams they have scheduled to visit them are Syracuse, UVA, VT, and Duke, with longer term ones with UNC. Enough to sell tickets but not to become the BYU of the East.
And Im still in the camp no conference will want to add them in that timeframe. Remember they had to use the threat of a lawsuit to allow the NCAA to let them move up to FBS and an independent because nobody was going to give them a bid.
Their best bet for getting into a conference is going to be one of the G5 conferences needing to fill the ranks after they've been raided by the P5 in the next wave of expansion.
Deadspin put it nicely....
All the more reason why I wish we could take them off our future schedule. I want nothing to do with that place.
This. The game in Lynchburg chafes my ass every time I think about it.
Wait, we have to play them IN Lynchburg?
GUYS - I FIGURED SOMETHING OUT!
We're never going to be the big dog until we stop playing these sorry ass schools at their sorry ass stadiums!
put it this way, you wouldn't see Clemson playing at App St
Didn't Miami play there? To be clear I'm against playing there for several reasons, it's an independent G5 at best team with awful morals.
Miami hasn't been a big dog since the Clinton administration
I think his point was there are programs of comparable status to Tech who have played at App State. Miami is a much closer comp for our program than is Clemson.
Don't tell Miami that though.
Yep - and I'd be willing to wager that most Top-15 teams do not have home and home agreements with G-5 programs... specifically lower tier G-5 programs.
I'm not sure Tech is a top 15 program currently. It's clealry not one in budget or donations as for win potential I'd say at best it's top 25 right now.
Even on the field - we haven't finished in the top 15 of the AP Poll since 2009 and we have gone 6-6 in the regular season 4 of the last 7 seasons. Last conference title was 7 years ago. Zero national championships. One national championship appearance that was 19 years ago. And depending on what numbers you look at, we are at best in the middle of the pack for athletic donors. I support our team as much as anyone and go to all the games but I'm sorry- no neutral observer would call us at Top 15 program. There is potential for more in the coming years, but that's not where we are right now.
Right - I wasn't suggesting we were a top 15 program, but was alluding to if we want to be a Top-15 program, we have to start acting like one, in that the Top-15 teams do not schedule home-and-home with teams like Liberty, ODU, etc...
Can't we just fake it until we make it?
Halfwits And Wagers
Line: 7 Months until a Liberty University Scandal
Lock of the week.... UNDER!
My question is, is it 7 months until the scandal happens or until news of it breaks? The former isn't the lock of the week, but of the century.
What worries me about Liberty is that it has the $$ and the ambition to make their program big. They won't challenge us in recruiting *now* or even in the near future. But 10 or 15 years down the road, it's a possibility.
10 to 15 years down the road I expect football in general to be much smaller than today, with smaller budgets and viewership.
I get the dangers of football being big today but I don't think football's going anywhere anytime soon.
I don't know...I think that the NFL is going to start looking more like College Football...
Liberty really selling their souls to try and be relevant at football huh? First Ian McCaw, now the guy who was lining up hookers for recruits (and possibly himself) and likened the troubles that Ole Miss was going through to the persecution of Jesus Christ??
Art Briles to OC...book it
"He don't give an F about nothin!" -Creed Bratton
Student: *drinks alcohol as first conduct offense*
Liberty: *expels student*
Hugh Freeze: *facilitates prostitution*
Liberty AD who participated in rape cover-up at Baylor: "Forgiveness is very important to us and our values. Hugh, wanna coach our football team?"
case in point
Besides the scandals, I'm concerned about Freeze building a big offensive team. Both from the view of 1) we have to start playing these guys early each season, and 2) his ability to recruit hidden gem QBs, RBs, and WRs that we might want to grab to fill out a class.
I can see Liberty trying to become a Baylor, Texas, Tech, Fresno State type of program that wins games 55-49, is exciting and occasionally gets big time players. Essentially a pain the side of the established programs of Texas, A&M, USC, UCLA, etc.
Let's hope the next scandal comes sooner vs. later because I'm not excited about Freeze building that type of program in our backyard, nor having to play that type of team each year (as there is no benefit for VT in that type of game).
If he has any success at all he will be gone in a minute back to P5 or NFL team
I just came here to share this..... holy shit I haven't laughed this hard at work, ever.
Obligatory
Figured this had to be some sort of joke. But nope there is video proof.
I guess he didn't get to save the numbers out of that phone at Ole Miss . . .
How come no one is talking about the part where he apparently HAS FUCKING MET JESUS!?!?
because it's a lot easier to make a joke about handling junk than to wade into the religious morass of the term "met Jesus"
Someone is laying the BS on thick to appease the masses.
He'll fit in well at Falwell U
I mean, to be fair, after learning about the strip clubs and prostitutes, I'm sure his wife isn't handling his junk these days.
Everyone missed the part where he'd love to meet some one that could handle his junk. That's the best part of the quote.... If you know of some one good at handling junk I'll pay if it's worth it.
Well, this is a quote, right? So the reporter assumed he meant "meet." Very plausible what he really said was "meat." Them homophones will get after ya.
The jokes write themselves.
And the only one that can save that fool, cause I am not sure he can fix himself.
He is just going to use this as a pit stop to get back up to a bigger school.
Haha, don't tell that to them Flames. They think this makes them the next UCF/Boise St.
Clowns only know the circus.
Truth. Met with a lot of these folks unfortunately this week as they were my clients. Development is no joke in Lynchburg.
Can't FOIA his phone records at a private university
Liberty is a shit stain upon both college athletics and Christianity.
I don't disagree and I'm not downvoting, but please delete the second part of your statement to fit within TKP community guidelines.
I'd say it toes the line. I agree with you, though. Talking about LU is going to toe the line no matter the conversation because of their advertised Christian values.
Frankly, I don't care for such an institution that blamed the victims of school shootings on their lack of faith.
She we start calling Liberty the real Second Chance U?
itdontmattertojesus.gif
Born and raised in Lynchburg...Wards Rd on a Friday night isn't all that.
The Athletic interviewed this guy and I didn't really care about it except for one thing that stood out. Liberty has spent 200 million in just the last decade on sports facilities. Between their unlimited cash flow, no morals and Freeze using his hookers to recruit it's going to be interesting to see what happens there.
My dad's company did the steel for their indoor practice facility. In one of the project meetings, Liberty's president or AD said the phrase "when we join the SEC" while talking about the new construction... So they certainly have some aspirations (and delusions).
Them joining the SEC is just their stepping stone to joining the NFL.
We joke about this, but their cash flow and resulting investment has been ridiculous. 10-15 years from now, they could be the most attractive team in the state, from a recruiting perspective.
They're going the same route with athletics as they have done with their law school for years. Give scholarships so they can brainwash as many people as they can and deploy into the world with their message. They churn out a ton of law graduates that didn't have to pay tuition.
A Liberty law degree isn't worth the paper it's printed on. It's a degree factory and there's no amount of money that will help that school be relevant in the legal community.
As a lawyer who routinely (literally almost on a weekly basis) beats up on liberty law grads in court, I can't agree more. Judges in multiple jurisdictions already view them as unprepared. I worked with a few at my old place of employment. They don't understand constitutional law because they don't teach certain cases. They don't know the rules of evidence and almost all of them are or want to be prosecutors.
I had a less than stellar LSAT score, so I went out of state for law school and paid exorbitantly more for my education than I would have at Liberty just to avoid going to a school like Liberty. As much as I hated ConLaw my 1L year, at least I got an education in the development of the law.
Same. Literally about all of this. Subpar LSAT, out of state law school, paid a lot, avoided Liberty like the plague. Better off in the long run.
As a husband of a recent Liberty Law grad I feel like I must respond to these few asshattery filled comments. And for the record my wife is defense attorney in Virginia. Let me also state that I generally don't ever defend LU, especially their athletic department. They constantly go against the mission they proclaim to lead. But I will defend my wife and hard work she put in to get where she is until the day I die so here goes:
1. Of course preparedness is subjective, but her class has the highest employment rate (over 90%) of any previous LU Law class. Not to mention they tied for the third highest bar passage rate in the state for first time takes.
2. My wife abhors the idea of prosecuting. She's been sold on criminal defense since the second semester of her 1L year. Most of her classmates are either clerking or in private practice. Sweeping statements like that just make you look dumb man.
3. Which cases does Liberty not teach that you think are necessary? I'd love to hear your first hand experience here.
4. I see you graduated from Elon, who has a worse bar passage rate than LU. Which is astounding considering North Carolina is considered one of the easiest bar exams in the country. Those in glass houses something something something.
But look man, at the end of the day everyone is held to the same standards by the ABA and LU grads pass the same bar exam as everyone else. She's having success, winning cases, and making money. Your attitude reeks of UVA syndrome.
I'm not sure Bar exam rates are all that meaningful (unless they're extremely low), considering the overall 2-year rate is something close to 90% for all law school graduates. Passing the bar is the literal minimum to be a practicing lawyer. Glad your wife is doing well, but that says more about her than it does about Liberty Law, which receives a bottom-quarter ranking from USNWR.
https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2018/03/23/new-data-bar-passage-show...
https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-law-schools/law-rankings
https://www.usnews.com/education/best-graduate-schools/articles/law-scho...
I believe we already concluded those rankings you shared were factually incorrect.
I'm sure your wife is a great lawyer. I'm not trying to disparage what she's accomplished. Anyone who's suffered through three years of law school deserves to be commended. My gripe was poorly aimed, so please accept my apologies.
If I can take another bite at this apple: Liberty's law school is not well regarded in the legal community. It's seen as a degree factory that floods the job market with folks with JDs and makes it tougher on everyone else to find work. The common complaint is that the people walking out of Liberty with JDs shouldn't have been admitted to law school in the first place. I recognize how pompous that sounds, and I hope you know I'm not talking about your wife. Given the success you've described, I'm certain she doesn't fall into this category. For some folks, I recognize there are constraints on where you can go for school (geography, financial aid, family, etc.) and Liberty eases a lot of those struggles. It's the other folks with the sub-150 LSAT scores and uGPAs of ~2.9 that Liberty is letting in that other schools aren't that get to me. It feels like they're admitting kids who can't go anywhere else just to make a buck. I'm about to graduate from law school and I'm trying to find work post-bar. So far, the search is going poorly and I'm just super frustrated by the whole law school process. So, again, I'm sorry my initial complaints came across offensively. I did not mean to speak ill of your wife and her accomplishments.
This would be me in that meeting at that exact moment.
We can all probably come up with a list of reasons why this makes no sense, but the first quote that popped up in my head when I read this was:
"it wasn't for recruiting purposes", though
Not then no, but Ole Miss has money men Liberty has creepy supporters who would support hookers over payouts.
every fan base has people who would support either or both
Based on what?
Well... Because this thread was resurrected.
I was watching a show on MotorTrend that featured an appearance of the Tuohys. So I, of course, had to start googling away. I had never realized that Freeze was Michael Oher's high school AND college coach!
As a Christian (imperfect as I am), I am bothered by some of the comments posted above. I apologize upfront if I stray beyond the community guidelines here, but I believe a broad brush of criticism is unfairly tarring everyone associated with Liberty and the Christian faith. I know parents who have sent their kids to Liberty because of the values the school espouses and I know a few of the kids themselves.
I was ingrained with the idea that hypocrisy is deplorable and I condemn it. Failing a high standard is not hypocrisy. Pretending to be what you are not and taking a "holier-than-thou" attitude is. But, I would rather set high standards and fail than have low standards with nothing for which to strive. It is not the same, but we all want Virginia Tech to win every game and bring the national trophy home. There are plenty of people on this site and others that say that will never happen, but isn't perfection worth striving for? If it is worth striving for a team prize isn't worth striving for on the personal / moral level?
I am not condoning hypocrisy or corruption. Shine a light on it and call it out. However, please do not lump everyone together.
As far as Hugh Freesz goes, I do not know him but maybe he has changed. I know some will never forgive him, but Mike Vick failed and appears to have changed, so it is possible.
Liberty is bolstering up their football program by hiring the AD who oversaw the massive sexual assault scandal at Baylor, who later went on record to say the scandal was just fabricated by the media and school for their own means. And then further doubled down by hiring a head coach who was publicly fired from Ole Miss after public records showed he used his work phones to call and order hookers when on road trips.
Considering the facade that Liberty has set up on trying to be this conservative Christian entity, its more than a little hypocritical of them to go down this path.
And that's without getting into the whole Liberty is actually a political organization hiding behind an educational facade.
That being said...I won't speak for others but I don't bemoan people who are truly devout and do everything they can to follow their faith. People stray from the path...which is understandable, to err is to be human.
I'll put it this way: No one likes phonies. Liberty's athletic program is full of them.
I don't think you can infer that criticism of the moral hypocrisy of Liberty's espoused values and the lack there of in the actions of the people the hire as painting everyone who works of goes to school at Liberty the same. I am 100% certain a large majority of people in the community are amazing people. That being said until the leadership of Liberty show the boldness to draw a line to exclude people that have serious malignant moral issues, such as Freeze and
BrilesMcCaw, over the desire to win by bringing in bigger sports names that need a 2nd chance landing spot you and everyone at Liberty should expect this sort of criticism. It may indeed be that Freeze orBrilesMcCaw has changed but their baggage comes with him.This in part also covers the criticism of the degrees they are issuing. Certainly there are good to great professors teaching valuable lessons to students but the visible desire to accept en mass and issue expansive online degrees will continue to degrade the perceived value of said degrees. Rightly or wrongly.
Liberty has a chance to create something amazing and there will always be those that will find fault but personally I think the leadership decisions are wrongly focused on speed to the top over quality of their decisions. I however am only responding to what I see reported which could be wrong.
(Liberty hired former Baylor AD Ian McCaw, not Art Briles. I can't tell if you were using Briles as an example similar to Freeze, or if you mistakenly said Briles instead of McCaw.)
fixed. meant McCaw. thanks!
I know plenty of folks who've gone to Liberty and they are good and decent people. I have no issues with them. As a Christian, my issue is the attitude espoused by some of their graduates that if you didn't go to Liberty, you're not really a Christian. They have this hubris that they are the only place for Christians to be educated (hence the creation of their fourth tier law school), and they attempt to brainwash their student body into this same unfounded belief. These folks look down their noses at anyone who dares call themselves a Christian but receive an education anywhere else.
They want to win football games, just like everyone else. And just like everyone else, they'll do anything to accomplish that goal. But unlike everyone else, they'll try to pretend they're holier than you while they do it and that pisses me off.
this reminds me of a quote from west wing:
How is this relevant? Well, there's a difference between holding yourself to a high standard, but failing and trying to project the image of holding a high standard, but really being a duplicitous slimeball behind the scenes. Liberty has started a trend of hiring the latter, but claiming the former.
Or maybe I'm just jaded having moved from Blacksburg to Lynchburg and having a little bit of culture shock. I mean, I mentioned to a Liberty grad that my wife and I had been on staff with a Christian ministry at Tech and the response was "Really? I didn't know they had Christians at Tech. Well, um, good for you. They certainly need it."
On second thought, I'm going to remove my angry liberty post. Have this instead.
Got my Bachelors, Masters and even worked at Liberty for two years in the Military Affairs Department. For all the athletic shadiness that they do, there are a lot of quality people that do represent the school well. I know a few of the professors in the Law School and they are great people. If you talk to them, they will tell you they have a long way to go.
As for athletics, I stay as far away from that as much as I can. I haven't really agreed with their choices but they have a goal and are going to use whoever they can to get them there as quick as they can. The people at the top of LU is really putting a damper on all of the good things that the rest of the college has to offer outside of politics, and sports.
I know this will reach deaf ears but the wide brushstrokes of opinions (while warranted for some things) really rub me the wrong way for a school that helped me be exactly who I wanted to be in life. Without their help, I wouldn't have been the first one in my family to ever attend college no less graduate with a Masters.
Any college that awards science degrees but requires a class for all students called creation studies deserves the sidest of side eyes.
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How dare they hold traditional Christian values.
Science isn't a traditional christian value, though. Coming from someone who unashamedly holds to "traditional christian values" and also has a doctorate in chemistry. There is a lot that science is inherently agnostic about that "each side" (as if there has to be "sides") try to claim supports "their view", and a lot of those claims are simply hogwash.
If I had more legs to give, I'd make this go plaid by myself.
It's a general course required for all students to take at a Christian University. Do you honestly think they should exempy students in science majors?
Yes, because YEC isn't science based.
That's an absurd argument. It's not even characterized as a science course. By your metric anyone seeking a degree in the college of science there should be barred from taking the class.
Yes ex except ad an elective. It should not count towards science degree credits.
I took the class my first semester of my freshman year. It's a required course at a proclaimed Christian college. It was a pass fail course during my time and all I had to do was show up and listen. You're making a mountain out of a mole hill here.
It could be worse and teaching vaccines are of the devil and Medicine isn't what God wanted. Sheesh one pass fail class is dictating all the work someone can do after their freshman year.
That class would easily fall in to one of the categories that you need credits in to get a science degree at Virginia Tech. It's just required at Liberty instead of being in a pool of classes at Tech that fit that Area. I see it as basically a required elective.
I'm Catholic, went to Catholic schools from K -12. But I don't try and teach my religion as educational fact.
Here is a bit from the website.
Your criticism doesn't match with how they describe the course.
Really?
Source: http://www.liberty.edu/academics/arts-sciences/creation/index.cfm?PID=9821
Edit: This is literally under "Purpose"
I'm failing to see where it says "Teaching this as a science course" in there.
This is what "Teaching this for sciene majors" looks like. When you say it benefits science majors and the rest of your university, it is for science students.
Let's add another quote:
Exhibits, IN THE SCIENCE HALL...
Why are you so dug in man? It's this weird blowback effect where you are literally defending creationism as a science now.
Here's more. Their contact person lists his info as:
A professor of Geology is teaching creationism.
They also state a course objective as:
This is all science themed. Stop. Please. You have a right to religious beliefs. I am okay with that. Do not present them as science, a science course, or science adjacent. Put them under theology or divinity or any other catalogue.
The catholic college I attended absolutely did this. I had to take a 4 hour class covering all aspects of the catholic religion to graduate, even though I graduated with a bachelor's of science in nursing. They absolutely taught their beliefs as educational fact. I learned way more than I wanted to about how to check your wife's vaginal fluid to determine if she might get pregnant if you go unwrapped. This wasn't a suggested option for BC. It was THE BC method being taught. Its pretty common for school's who hold some type of religious view to require their students to take a class to learn about that view.
Another "traditional Christian school" in South Carolina, Bob Jones College didn't allow different races to date until 2000. Because they taught that each was different, as in they taught in their "science degrees" that Asians were different than whites were different than blacks.
So a school using any religious text as the basis of none religious education is a major issue for me.
While terrible that is completely irrelevant to requiring a creation class for the entire student body at a religious University.
Oh Good Lord, do not connect Bob Jones and Liberty together. Bob Jones is on another level of crazy and Liberty is no where near that level of clown show kokiedoke
Dude, you don't like Liberty. We get it
Circling back to the athletics element, one of my beefs with Liberty is they are basically funding athletics with online tuition revenue. Yeah, VT has a student athletic fee, but it's miniscule compared to the student dollars that Liberty is spending on athletics. (and yes schools like JMU and ODU raise quite a chunk of their athletic funds from student fees, much more than VT or UVA, but that doesn't mean its OK, and they're also still not on Liberty's level)
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Woah what happened here
Community guidelines my friends. Every time Liberty is brought up in a thread there are subtle snarky comments that condescend religion in some form. You can be critical of the character of those LU has hired without taking the additional step of making statements about hypocrisy in religious institutions. That leads those who take offense to the often derisive comments to challenge them. And so the cycle goes.
You can be critical of Liberty without being critical of religion. Calling out Liberty for institutional hypocrisy isn't a criticism of religion itself.
So much this. We interact with Notre Dame and Boston College, both religious schools, on a yearly basis and there is never criticism of their beliefs.
Well, other than French taunting the Jesuits with toast.
Digging up an almost 10-week old thread on Liberty went well.