I figure we might as well get one of these going so we can discuss each episode as it airs and check the status of our guesses from the previous thread.
For starters, it was great just to have GoT back. When the intro music started playing I was lit. There were a few things I didn't particularly like about the episode (looking at you 'stink eye' from a dragon), just felt a little too cheesy for Thrones.
I really enjoyed that they have started to get the reunions and important revelations going right out of the gate rather than have them hanging over the short season. The most important being Sam telling Jon who is really is (and what I think may in fact be the most important line of the whole episode when he asks him if he thinks Dany would give up her crown to save her people)
Jaime already arriving at Winterfell and Bran and him sharing a look - great.
Tyrion and Sansa talking about their previous (and I guess technically still in force?) wedding.
Arya and Jon sharing one of the few genuinely happy moments the series has ever had was fantastic. Her line about using Needle "once or twice" was excellent
Learning that Tormund and Edd both made it off the wall alive
Arya, The Hound, and Gendry talking together, and seeing that Gendry can make dragonglass weapons
Poor Ned Umber...although that was a nice creepy scene to close out the episode
All in all I expected it to be a set up episode, and for the most part it was the characters reuniting and explaining their various motivations. I was fine with that to set up the bigger events coming.
My one updated theory from what we saw is I think they are dropping a number of hints that Bran and the Night King are super connected, if not outright Bran = The Night King. My thinking is that we keep seeing those spiral shaped patterns left by NK (Ned Umber, the horses at the Fist of the First Men, etc). We also keep seeing those spiral patterns left by the Children of the Forest (in the caverns below Dragonstone, as they zoom above the weirwood when they created the NK in the first place).
We don't know if there are any Children left, but we do know one "something like a man" that is closely connected with them now. I doubt the NK is leaving the spirals as a warning, as everyone already knows that bad shit is headed their way. Its some other kind of message. Perhaps Bran's way of saying who he is.
Comments
The whole dragon riding sequence was unnecessary and if they wanted to add fuel to the R+L=J fire they should have had John ride a dragon last season before the cat was let out of the bag. I feel like Sam better have a copy of the journal where the R & L wedding was noted or he is going to look like Ned Stark trying to usurp a queen with some little known info from a book and visions from Bran, especially after the scene where Danny informs him she BBQ'd his family.
Arya's dagger must have some future significance because every major character she reunited with pointed it out. My guess is it the weapon that takes down the Night King. I did not in rewatching some of the episodes this past week that the Red Woman (whatever her name is) after buying Gendry told him that he would build up and take down kings. He is currently building up a weapons supply for one king to try to take down another.
They have been commenting on the dagger a lot, and it featured prominently in the storyline (used to frame Tyrion, etc) earlier as well. I think you may be onto something with Arya likely taking out an important foe with it, or at least it having a critical role.
I think this scene did 2 things:
The R+L=J theory had such strong wheels that they almost had to do it the way they did. It ended up working out because the reveal that Rhaegar was his father wasn't even the biggest reveal of the show since Rhaegar and Lyanna were actually married.
I think they knew the theory was prevalent but left it out there the way they did then dropped the bomb in S7E5 so casually.
Bran and the NK being linked in some way adds to Arya's dagger being significant given that it was used in Brans attempted assassination.
And Bran had it and gave it to Arya. Who knows what he has seen and if he was putting something into motion.
Nailed it!
I'm pretty sure Arya stabbed him with something else...she gave Sansa the dagger before she entered the crypt.
she gave Sansa a dragon glass dagger, not catspaw
Good eye. I couldn't tell with how dark the episode was
The exact reason I'm going to rewatch it with my screen setting adjusted after work.
*takes a bow*
The negativity towards Dany (from the viewers of the show, NOT the characters within the show) is a little unsettling to me. She has made mistakes just like every character in the show, likening her to the mad king in conversations (Varys-Tyrion discussions) seem like just a way to build a little extra drama into the pot. The fact that she was so willing to put her lifelong goal of reclaiming the throne on hold to stop the white walkers is a huge difference, and shows again where her true loyalties lie which is to the people she feels responsible for. She has proven over and over again that she is a liberator more than anything. I think too many people have a Jon-centric view of the show and it's just not that simple. The show's strength is in its multiple main characters.
I think that scene and the reunions/dragon riding exemplify EXACTLY what these first two episodes will consist of: Fan appeasing moments (reunions/Dany and Jon riding dragons together), and tedious drama [Sam suddenly caring about his dad who hates him and that he himself despises, appealing that Jon should be the ruler and they should turn on Dany (worst idea in the entire show)] to make the episodes feel less like the setup episodes that they clearly are. It's likely that not much other than what I listed above will happen in episode 2 either. I don't think this will even be an issue. It's all just buying time while they setup the Battle of Winterfell which is likely to be episode 3.
I didn't take that scene as Sam particularly caring that much about his father. His reaction to hearing about Dickon getting roasted was much more pronounced than hearing about his dad. He basically said his dad dying was fine because his brother would be the ruler than. John Bradley I thought did a nice job in the scene conveying that.
As for the negativity towards Dany, I think it was established well enough. The Northerners dislike outsiders to begin with, and now they have not just an outsider, but a Targaryen that also happens to be the daughter of Mad King that murdered several prominent Starks, showing up at their home with the guy that they declared to be king with his knee bent. I would have thought it poor writing if almost everyone wasn't pissed off at her.
The North Remembers
I mean he was already on the verge of crying when he heard about his dad. I agree completely that he was likely much more upset about Dickon. Either way, trying to suddenly stake a claim to the throne before fighting the white walkers would be the single worst timed decisions in the show. If they aren't all fighting together they are guaranteed to lose that fight. Sam suggesting that is understandable within the emotion of the moment, but it's an awful idea and it also goes against the constant running theme that Jon has no interest in being the king. Every time he is in a position of power he either breaks all the rules (Lord Commander) and gets mutineed, or he immediately cedes the power to someone he deems more important, as his primary goal is to protect everyone he loves from the Night King. He is not meant to be a traditional leader and has no interest in it.
In regards to the negativity, I meant from the fanbase not within the characters inside the show. The politics of the North make their uneasiness and general lack of trust make so much sense. I agree completely with that point, I just should have been more clear about what I was talking about.
Gotcha on the Dany point. Yeah I do not understand any negativity on a meta sense. I think it will be interesting to see how that develops, as I tend to think we will not see Jon and Dany together by the end of the series. Dany has and always will be focused on ruling Westeros. This detour to combat the Walkers makes sense in her character because she is practical enough to know that that rule would be short lived if the Walkers defeat everybody else first.
I'm not sure why exactly, I'm hoping its not because one of them (Jon most likely) dies. But between finding out his lineage (although Dany might not have as much of an issue there as Targaryens kept things in the family all the time) or their differences on what things should look like if/when then they defeat the Night King.
probably because people forget that the viewers know more about what's actually happening than the characters do.
I actually think Dany's history suggests she wouldn't end up ruling the seven kingdoms as status quo if she ever even gets the chance to do so. She has proven time and time again that as soon as she gains a position of power, she immediately frees everyone and only wants them to follow her if they choose to. She is a liberator first, conqueror second, and leader third. I also think all the talk of breaking the wheel suggests a situation where (if she ever gets the chance) she would be more likely to completely deconstruct the concept of one ruler of the seven kingdoms, rather than fall in line with all the other rulers before her. Either way, that's what I want to happen, and there's no scenario I'd like more if this happened with Jon by her side.
That said, I agree that it's very likely that things don't end well for one or both of them. Whether it's a falling out between them or not, as I do think there is a scenario where they care about each other to the end, it just seems likely given GRRM's history that one or both them will die at some point this season. It also could make for some really incredible moments. I also don't think anyone will sit on the Iron Throne at the end of the series in the traditional sense. I think the Seven Kingdoms are deconstructed and if anyone actually is literally sitting there at the end, I imagine it would be moreso symbolic than as the ruler of the seven kingdoms.
Perhaps the goal of the White Walkers is to simply get rid of the existing power structure in Westeros when necessary?
The last time they showed up it forced a bunch of disparate groups that didn't trust each other to come together. And frankly, given what we have seen the Night King be able to do, it makes sense that perhaps they weren't as much defeated during the Long Night, but simply left back to the far north until it was necessary for them to come back after their goal was accomplished.
I still have not gotten the sense that the NK is simply out there to eradicate everyone, because it seems like he could do it relatively easily at any time.
I think you're onto something with the Night King having motivations that might not be "eradicate everything." He could simply be looking for Bran, for one example.
Also for anyone who wants, in my opinion the best, online content for explanations and callback breakdowns you should check out "Alt Shift X" on YouTube. Incredibly well done videos with tons of show/book context explained and used to project future possibilities. He recently made a video about the historical relationships between Starks and the White Walkers.
A theory I saw was to stop a Valyrian Doom type eruption from destroying Westeros. Hence a song of ice and fire
Dany is probably already pregnant.
Jon and Dany are both Targaryan and Jon is a Stark as well, wargs with a wolf.
Their daughter will rule.
Everyone else is dead, of import.
My read on Dany is: conquerer first; liberator second; leader/ruler third.
I think the mad queen conversation is important. Her major flaw is her temper. I think the scene where she finds that she killed Samwell's family will be relevant later. I think it might give her pause before she kills someone, or it might make Sam not trust her.
Speaking of this scene, I didn't particularly like the way they did it. The script/situation felt forced to me. I wish she didn't say anything to Sam, and she just mentioned it to Jorah after Samwell left, and then Sam found out what happened in a later scene.
I think the conversation serves a purpose and is important, but I don't think she is going to be become like the Mad King as many people seem to think.
If for no other reason than she knows that tale and understands nobody would follow her if she went that route.
I thinmk she wants to be good but she is displaying some of the same characteristics as her father. She is paranoid and now that the cats out of the bag about Jon, I think it may send her over the top. She had to eb stopped by Mornmont from firing Tyrian and she always suspects his loyalties still lye with the Lannisters. She had a visceral reaction to Jon telling her who he was and I think the post above pointed to the similarities to how Ned was treated when he discovered to the truth about the Lannister children. She is power hungry and in the end she will stop at nothing to sit on the iron throne.
A friend point out to me that almost all of the good that Dany has done has been due to the guidance of her advisory panel. She almost never comes to these things on her own. If left to her own devices, may have scorched King's landing 3 seasons ago.
I always have trouble articulating my thoughts after an episode... nonetheless:
Teared up a little bit at the Jon and Arya reunion. Her reunion with Gendry was nice too, although I'm pretty sure the writers had some ulterior motives with her weapon. I'm starting to dig the theory that she kills the night king.
I think Jon knowing he is the true heir to the iron throne will really piss Dany off. She will think he has hidden it from her for awhile. When Sansa asked if he bent the knee for the north or because he loved her I thought for sure he did it for the north first. I guess they aren't mutually exclusive though.
Bran is a little freak just hanging around Winterfell. I really don't know what to make of him in his current state. Part of me loves it because he is just so detached and so pivotal, part of me hates it because his story was compelling before he became a weirdo.
Jamie's storyline is my favorite (Theon's a close second). The Episode 2 preview really excited me because he's almost in a bit of a no-man's land. He left the woman he loved (albeit his sister) for this cause. Now it seems uncertain that they will welcome him. Really cheering for him now.
Think Bron betrays Cersei and takes Tyrion's offer to double what she's offering him. Cersei is going to say her baby is Euron's. I also feel like Cleganebowl odds took a hit yesterday.
Overall it was an exciting first episode. Only five more to go. Bittersweet.
I think the whole thing with Bronn was more a device to get him to Winterfell when shit hits the fan. There wouldn't have been another logical reason really otherwise. I see him fighting alongside everyone when the battle happens. Although his whole character is about his own personal enrichment, we have seen him do things out of care and concern for people he likes with no monetary incentive (staring down a full grown dragon and shooting him comes to mind)
Ned Umber's graphic scene at the end seems like a recreation of the scene when the NK was created by the Children of the Forest. He has a spear or knife stabbed through his chest holding him up against the wall. This is a message to Bran but I cant figure out what he's trying to convey.
The Night King (and the White Walkers, more generally) have consistently used the Children's imagery throughout the series, even dating back to the first episode. Their creation is derived from the Children's magic (or the Old Gods) and they are using that imagery.
What struck me about Ned Umber was that he was pierced through the chest in the middle of the spiral. Recall Bran's vision of the creation of the Night King. He was stabbed through the chest with dragonglass while tied to a weirwood tree in the middle of a spiral of rocks. The Night King is either creating these scenes as a message or is somehow deriving power from them.
To follow up on the symbol topic, for those interested, the episode's director explained what they mean:
http://watchersonthewall.com/dave-hill-game-thrones-season-8-premiere-wi...
Best part is Bronn getting hit with the "poor girl...the pox will take her within the year.....Which one?!"
So, in that same scene - the women have the following conversation:
"That boy, Eddie?"
"The ginger"
"That's him; came back with his face burnt right off. He's got no eyelids now."
"How does he sleep with no eyelids?"
A ginger Lannister soldier named Eddie...
Source
I get that they needed a set up episode, where every speculation we essentially already knew, becomes a matter of fact, but man did that feel like a waste of an episode for a series that only has 5 left. I'm just worried that everything is going to feel so rushed at the end to make sure they clean up all the storylines.
I initially thought that too, but consider the fact that in one episode we got as much progress as most entire seasons have made. We're already on track for essentially "bonus" episodes, because the series was only intended for 70 episodes (7 seasons of 10), but they decided to extend it to a total of 73. After getting all the background basically out of the way in one episode, the remainder of the season should be action and resolution of storylines.
I like the perspective of looking at the last three episodes as a "bonus". It's pretty much a foregone conclusion that the battle for winterfell between the living and the dead will be the entirety of episode 3, so that last three episodes are the "bonus". Good eye on that.
Also keep in mind that we're getting some bonus time too.
Ep 1 was 54 minutes, Ep 2 is 58 minutes, then Ep 3 is 82 minutes, Ep 4 is 78 minutes, and Ep 5 & 6 are 80 minutes. If you look at total run-time, this is more like a 7.5 episode season, just condensed into fewer
Somebody put a bell on him!
I posted this on the Trailer thread earlier but thought I might have a better shot at an answer here.
That was depicting the Red Wedding. The Lion (with the help of the Boltons and Freys) beheading the wolf.
The center is the headless wolf full of arrows.
The other images are...
The Night King destroying the wall:
/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/16033099/Wall_Falls_Astrolabe.png)
Birth of Dany's Dragons:
Full intro:
I thought that might be a throwback to earlier story, but couldn't make out the images well enough and knew that Rob wasn't hanged (which is how the middle image looked to me) which threw me.
It's all symbolic. The body is hanging from the bridge between the two towers of The Twins
But if you actually look at the Twins, the distance and height of the bridge much different.
Also, if you look closely - the lion has a fish in its mouth, which is the sigil for House Tully, Catelyn Stark's family's house.
I think the man on the right symbolizes the Bolton's, whose sigil is the flayed man, but I guess they can't use that in a depiction of an actual Bolton.
The Ringer interviewed the guys behind the intro sequence (link).
Is this a safe place to comment? I need to make sure Bran isn't going to pop up randomly and weird everyone out.
I think Gendry and Arya end up hooking up.
There. That's my contribution.
is she even legal now ?
She turned 22 today (the actress at least)
22, wow she looks way younger
I'm pretty sure ~8 years have past within the story so whatever age she was in the story S1 plus 8ish
I don't think they operate under any kind of consent law in Westeros.
If so, Walter Frey and Craster wouldn't be allowed within 250' of a Chuck E Cheese.
Somehow I just never thought of Arya as marriage material.
So, she's either the "Fuck" or "Kill" option for you. I gotta say, if it's the latter, good luck with that.
No, that's not the meaning at all I was shooting for. She's much too young during most of this series and far too belligerent to be thinking about marriage yet. Her purpose in life is pointing more to ending lives than making lives at this point in the story.
BINGO!!!! this episode is all about doing the deed
Called it
Anyone else notice that Mac from It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia was one of the Greyjoy's that got killed by Theon and crew? He confirmed it on Instagram today.
Now I'm just thinking of all the IASIP characters in GoT.
Dennis calls Cersei a bird or a 'goddamn bitch' and immediately gets killed for it. Charlie ties up Tyrion and claims he caught another leprechaun, then rides Drogon since he knows Dragons don't eat people, Dee gets swarmed by wights as Frank leaves her behind to save himself. Cricket finds out he's been living with the army of the dead the whole time ("I guess they thought I looked scarred and dead enough that I was one of them. Much nicer than the dogs"). Frank, always packing his piece, shoots the Night King.
I thought the Bran/Jamie stare down at the end was perfect
"Oh that time I paralyzed you? It was just a prank bro. Please don't do some fucked up worg shit to me."
The best I have seen so far is Jaime looking at Bran in the wheelchair and saying "Need a push?" and Bran asking back "Yeah, need a hand?"
I still don't understand it, but Bran could always pull a Hold-the-Door on Jaime right?
I really believe that Dany is going to demand that Sansa bend the knee and when she doesn't Dany is going to try to execute her and Jon is going to step in to save her. It seemed that Dany made a veiled threat when she was talking about how Sansa treated her when they met.
The actor that plays Beric said in an interview the other day a quote to the effect that people are going to be really surprised by how the show ends and it will likely be a finale that people discuss for a long long time
That's not always a good thing. However, I definitely hope it is. I have faith in GRRM and the showrunners, but there's always a level of fear with shows with this much investment from the fans.
Yes, I thought for a moment that the conversation could go a long time even if the ending sucks.
But I think GRRM and the showrunners have earned my trust to this point, so I don't think they will botch the landing, even though it's basically impossible to please everyone
Along those lines, the actress who plays Brienne said that after the finale, fans will need therapy.
"I think just the show ending is going to send all of the world into professional help... I think it's going to make me incredibly emotional."
It's hard to tell if she means that as in needing therapy because of what happens, or simply that fans will be so upset its over.
I think the latter.. that people will be emotional over the series wrapping up.
I read it differently.
"The actress was on the red carpet for her new film Welcome to Marwen, and Gwendoline told E! News that fans are "going to need therapy" once they actually see the season eight finale.
Asked if that meant "someone dies", Gwendoline coyly responded: "I think just the show ending is going to send all of the world into professional help"
"just the show ending" = "no further episodes of the show produced, story completed, no more anticipating the next episode or speculating about the next season" will make people so sad they'll need therapy.
It's going to be a reveal where they have been on the island from LOST the whole time, and those two dudes have been controlling the entire thing and Bran/Night King is actually Locke.
This would be the top 10 ending of any show ever. Make epic series, get fans fully invested, close up a series that had one of the worst endings of all time 8 years later.
Some random thoughts:
Have we seen the last of Ellaria Sand?
What was the weapon that Arya asked Gendry to make? Looked like some sort of lax stick with a dragonglass projectile?
With how badly the show treated the entire Dorne storyline, I hope so.
What's wrong with the Dorne storyline? I'm not a book reader, so I thought it was fine.
It was significantly stripped down from the books to show, which in and of itself is understandable because of TV limitations.
Its not so much that they took a lot of that story out, its that the parts they decided to keep were just kinda...stupid?
I mean they make the Prince look like a clueless, weak moron, when in the book he has several plots going behind the scenes that involved Dany and "other" Targaryens. He may still prove to be those things when all is said and done book wise, but it seems unlikely he will just get punked by Ellaria so easily.
His daughter is much more heavily involved in some dealings, and the main bodyguard (the large black guy) has a LOT more to work with.
The Sandsnakes are awesome in the book and not nearly as cookie cutter as they made those characters for the show.
Take away everything about Dorne and the only change is finding another way to kill Myrcella, who had no role in the series anyway. It was a completely unnecessary and sloppy side story for the TV series other than they wanted to have the Mountain v Viper scene.
Someone had to mortally wound the mountain so badly that only qyburn could bring him back, but, I guess they could've found another character to do that.
I didn't find it at all sloppy. I understand why book readers would be annoyed, but I don't think there was a problem with script otherwise.
Why though? He was a hulking butcher before and he turned into an... undead hulking butcher? I guess I don't see much value in his transformation either other than adding a little bit to the undead/mystical/fantasy element of things.
There are a couple angles on this. In the books, there are a lot more characters from Dorne and a much larger storyline. I acknowledge it's too much to do in the show, because you could have added an entire season's worth of episodes just to deal with Dorne.
That aside, the problem I have is with the half-assed way they tried to incorporate the Dorne storyline and the horrible writing. It's the only part of the entire GoT series that I truly dislike. The inclusion of Oberyn Martell was actually really good, and I loved the Mountain vs. Red Viper, because that's a pivotal moment in the story. After that, everything about Dorne was just crammed in. Terrible lines ("you want a good girl, but you need a bad p*ssy" goes down in the hall of fame of worst lines ever, with the worst delivery ever) and unbelievable plot elements (Areo Hotah, one of the most feared warriors in the world and a giant of a man, goes down from a single dagger in the shoulder, even if poisoned?), and basically how flat the Sand Snakes were throughout. In the books, they are feared warriors, yet Euron offs two of them with no trouble.
The entire involvement of Dorne consists of the Mountain being resurrected (cool, sure, whatever) and Myrcella dying. One could argue that Myrcella is irrelevant (she really is) but her death is necessary to end the line of succession of Robert's "children" to allow Cersei to accede to the throne. But truly, this whole thing could have been cleanly short-circuited if the gift that Cersei received (the necklace in the mouth of a viper) was the signal that Myrcella was dead. It would still have to be resolved why Cersei wouldn't send the Lannister army to Dorne, but that could be as easy as (1) no one has ever conquered Dorne, not even Aegon the Conqueror so it's dumb and (2) Cersei is a power-hungry, stone-cold bitch and now the Iron Throne is hers.
Great points. Areo Hotah is nonexistent in the show, I had already forgot that he was in it.
I'm hoping this is somewhat relevant in the story. I don't think he was resurrected for no reason. Maybe his undead skills will help him beat the Night King.
She's also a vehicle to show how much Cersei cares about her children.
Really hope Bran wargs into the mountain and fucks shit up
Or, in what would be an even cooler development, the Night King commands him to turn around and crush Cersei's throat, and he can't help but obey.
I can't find the article, but I believe I read an interview last year where the actress confirmed that her character basically has an off screen death and won't be seen again
Yeah, unless someone gets into that dungeon somehow and let's her go, she gone.
Like Bronn. He had teh thing with her daughter that is also there and he knows how to stop the potion.
This actually came out right before the season premiere, but I still got a good chuckle
Jon Snow Emails 23andMe About His DNA Results
Alright, what about the dead dragon? They are making plans to defend Winterfell and we aren't let in on the discussion of what to do about the zombie dragon. So are Jon and Dany headed out on the dragons and have some plan to kill the zombie dragon which is the implication towards the end? We aren't let in on that discussion, we just get to see Tyrion and the gang get drunk instead?
I guess it makes for better drama, but it's like having an elephant in the room with you and not talking about it.
On the other hand, sure liked that song at the end, tried to catch the name and artist in the credits but missed it. Have to replay it and catch it in those fast moving credits.
https://www.theringer.com/game-of-thrones/2019/4/21/18510448/season-8-ep...
I think Arya's spear will be used for that, similar to how the knight king killed the dragon.
So why didn't any of the escaped knights watch or wildlings mention the ice dragon?
Arya just takes whatever the hell she wants now. Feels weird when thinking about her as she was first in the show.
I had to google but she's old enough to be a college graduate.
Yea she is 22 in real world, but watching from the beginning it's still weird.
HBO sent out this tweet before the show aired in the UK definitively to act as a reminder for her age.
So obviously everyone in the crypts is fucked.
I have a feeling that the NIght King is going to resurrect all of the dead Starks in the crypts, which would really be something...
...which also jives which the idea that maybe the Night King is a Stark himself, as we know he was one of the First Men prior to being turned, and that the Starks are related to the First Men.
Crypts will extremely relevant, beyond just a place to hang out/stay safe. They have their own scene in the intro. I think these three things are related:
Maybe the Night King will try to rise the dead starks, but they'll rebel against him, or something like that. We shall see.
Considering the dead are there. Why would they go to where the dead are with a dude that can reanimate the dead coming to town?
seems that way right?
in the books, and I think somewhere in the TV series, Winterfell is mentioned as having old magic in its walls, imbued when Bran the Builder constructed the castle. Question is whether that residual magic is going to be any use against the Night King's powers.
If you didn't tear up just a bit when Brienne got knighted, you have no soul.
A few thoughts.
I used to like Danny but no so much anymore. She's on a power trip and is going down the same path as her father. Geez, get over yourself lady, you have White Walkers breathing down your neck.
Arya has become a straight up badass. If you asked me back in season 6 it wouldn't have bothered me if she got offed in Braavos but now I want to see her inflict some pain and live happily ever after with Gendry.
Jaime Lannister is the ultimate feel good story. Nothing would please me more to see him off Cersei after he and Brianne of Tarth make it Facebook official.
I want to hang with the Hound and do rails.
The Hound is such a good anti-hero
Yeah...about that. Any of those feel good stories we got tonight probably don't have a nice pleasant follow up next week.
Y'all are too quick to fall for this red herring drama with Dany. They just needed something to add a little tension to these first two episodes. I figured this would be even less of an issue from viewers after tonight's episode where she took the Aegon news pretty damn well for someone who just found out her entire life's mission is no longer clear because her nephew is the actual heir to the Iron Throne because of a patriarchal succession system.
Also Aerys was probably a bad guy anyway, but it's much less likely that he just has "something naturally inherent inside him that made him crazy as hell" that Dany would also have as many have speculated (but ignore that Rhaegar was apparently a great guy, and that Dany for 6+ seasons has been incredible), and much more likely that Bloodraven/Bran (nonlinear time and all) made the Mad King go full on crazy with an instruction gone wrong similar to Hodor.
Yeah, you'd think she'd consider the following when deciding whether to be concerned about a challenge to the throne from Jon.
a) Jon constantly turns down leadership positions, doesn't seek them out
b) Jon doesn't care about titles just about protecting the people
c) Jon already pledged loyalty to Dany
d) Jon loves Dany
He would have to have a really big personality shift to try and claim the Iron Throne over Dany, despite having a legit claim. And it's not like it would be breaking tradition for him to renounce his claim. There's plenty of precedent in GOT of heirs renouncing their claim to the throne.
and regarding Aerys.. yes it's a strong theory that the Mad King's obsession with wildfire was spurred by a psychi message from Bloodraven (or even Bran) that the 7 kingdoms would need to defeat the white walkers with fire.
That damn ending.
Next week's episode is going to be a crazy one.
So hear me out, but I'm thinking that maybe hanging out in the crypts, where a bunch of Starks are buried is a bad idea...Ya know, seeing as how the White Walkers have a special talent of raising people from the dead as mindless soldiers...
There have been a lot of fan theories about exactly this. However, it's pretty clear from the lore that the Night King can't resurrect the Kings of Winter. The Others are said to hate iron, and Ned Stark talks of the crypts by saying that the iron swords on the laps of all in the crypts are to keep restless spirits in their place.
The Starks of old knew what the White Walkers could do, and safeguarded themselves against it. What once was defensive strategy is now just tradition.
There are alternate theories that the Kings of Winter will rise to defend Winterfell during the battle, but I think that's a little too on-the-nose in terms of copying the undead army in Lord of the Rings.
I had forgotten this lore from the books. It feels like so long ago since I read them and my memories get twisted with watching the show. Leg.
I knew the crypts were a bad idea! Even if it took the show spitting on the lore of the books.
The wights coming back almost looked like maesters to me. At least one of them had the linked chains on. They make a point of showing the characters standing by specific Stark crypts and nothing is coming out of those
Interesting. I had thought the Stark crypts were only for the Starks, so it's surprising to me that others such as maesters would be buried down there
There's been a lot of Starks, it's not unreasonable to think one or more of them were maesters at some point in history of Winterfell. I thought they were way too well preserved but watching the 'Behind the Thrones' they went into how they researched ancient corpses to develop the makeup and effects, and ultimately someone buried for 4,000 years can still be remarkably preserved, even if they weren't mummified.
Can't help but think Brienne has reached the end of her story, especially after such an emotional high. She's got to be a goner next episode. Tormund also made me laugh obnoxiously multiple times.
Methinks that she has to watch Jaime die, and proceeds to be heartbroken.
its been 2 episodes of feel goods, I think a lot of folks are about to reach the end of their story. I think Brienne, Arya, Jorah and the Hound are all goners next episode. My guess.
Bran is a goner. Never should have told Tyrion his life story
Oh, and a little much on the Sam and Edd die when they zoom in on Jon after Edd says "last one alive burns the rest". Plus, only Sam and Bran know that John is a Targ, so it only makes sense to kill those two off, because of course GRRM would do that.
Would not be surprised to see Jamie killed while defending Bran.
Brenne is sort of the opposite of Cersey IMO. Cersey is evil and she always screws something up. Every time she executes a plan something negative happens to her. Brienne OTOH is a good person but she also always screws something up or fails in some way. I think the only thing she did right was rescue Sansa and Theon after they escaped on their own. She wasn't there to see the light in the tower though. So we now know she is supposed to protect the left flank.
I feel like the first two episodes could have been condensed into one boring episode instead of two. The highlight of both episodes was Tormund talking about giant breast feeding and face chugging milk liquor. I'm so desperate for literally anything to happen that is not cheesy reunions and waterfall makeouts. The Night King is on their doorstep and I feel like i'm watching Twilight not Game of Thrones.
Bring on the battle.
This whole show has been one long soap opera with a few moments of high budget CGI battles mixed in. Literally 75% of the entire show is people just long drawn out dialogue making the plot advance at a snails pace. But because of things like the Red Wedding, Battle of the Bastards, Hardhome, etc, its all forgiven. Of course they were going to milk that soap opera effect for all it was worth before the final battles begin.
The reason GoT is so good is because of the drama between battles, not in spite of it. Do just hate-watch anything that's not a battle?
Oh no, I never said I hated it. But my wife and I rewatched from the start before the final season, and we both made a remark that the show is totally a late night soap opera. It has something for pretty much anyone who could be watching, which is why it is so popular. I actually appreciate how they were able to weave the soap genre together with the action/scifi genre so well.
No, the reason GoT WAS so good was the immersion not the drama. The world was brutal, unforgiving and deadly. Every week was an hour long struggle for either survival or conquest. Sure relationships formed and characters developed and there was drama, but it always felt secondary to the struggle.
I think the turning point was the Red Wedding Episode. Ever since then the writers have been chasing that next big bang. The format has become tension build, more building, more building, more building, RELEASE. While the climax that we are given has typically been nice, I feel like the plot development and the episode to episode quality has tanked. Most of last season was boring, so far this season has been excruciatingly boring.
you should try reading the books if you think the show moves slowly
See i disagree. He created so many different plot lines for you to get caught up in that i never found myself thinking "alright get to the point already". Everything moved pretty fluidly and seemed to have a purpose, unlike the show, which i think concentrates a little too much on crowd pleasing moments that don't contribute to the story.
I have read the books. I agree with this.
Except for the Kingsmoot.
Well you're about to get the longest uninterrupted battle scene in history (as we've been told) next week. I would imagine shit will be popping off for at least the next two episodes and probably the next 4.
As much as I agree that the story hasn't progressed much the last two episodes, when everyone starts dying I think we will look back on these two episodes full of reunions and special (potentially final) moments between friends and family and wish we could go back to that time haha.
I doubt we could have condensed these two episodes. They might not have had to have been an hour a piece, but there was so much that needed to be conveyed. You have characters with lots of history meeting up, some for the first time in years. It also serves to make the death of characters in the battle much more heart wrenching. Gendry or Arya dying wouldn't be as impactful if they didn't reunite. Same with Jaime and Briene.
But not really, because we had the reunite episode when they brought the white-walker to Cersie. There has probably been more real time elapsed between that episode and this one than time in the story line. Arya, Sansa, and Bran are really the only ones that have been out of the loop.
I thought I read somewhere that this entire story arc was supposed to take part over the span of a few months, but they've had to make adjustments for the way the show is made and produced. Is that not correct?
That is what I thought as well, felt like a few months since the Cersei/WW episode so all of the characters except Ned's kids have all reunited recently, so all the grab ass that has been going on this season feels like rehash and I wish it would have been condensed into one 80 min episode to start the season.
I am not saying they had to dive right into the battle, but have some scheming and some more time put toward any plots individual characters may be working behind the fight against the Night King. You know Sansa, Danny, Cersei, and Varys are all thinking about how to benefit themselves when the battle is over. If they would have hinted more into that I think it would have added a thick undercurrent to the story so far.
I appreciated last night because of the way they approached it as 'how would you act if you knew you were going to die tomorrow'. Yeah, it might have been long and drawn out, but most of the characters we saw last night likely die next week, and it was good to kind of finalize their arcs and bring some stories to a close before that happens.
My question now is... do they kill the Night King next week, or do they continue their match south? I could see the story going both ways, logically playing into the arc that has been set up from the beginning.
My guess is that they more or less lose the battle of Winterfell in ep3, then in ep4 they pull off a last ditch, suicide-type mission to kill the Night King with a smaller group. Then the last two episodes account for the the remaining loose ties with Cersei, Golden Company, future of Westeros.
This is assuming we don't get the Night King wins, humanity was the problem all along ending.
I think there still needs to be a Dany/Jon vs Cerci battle for Kings Landing. This whole series has been building towards 2 events - The war with the Night King, and Cerci's Last Stand. At one point, I thought they could coincide, but now it looks like it will be one and then the other.
My roommate postulates:
We don't see the Night King or the dead dragon at the end of ep2. Just his henchman and a large army of undead. Therefore he believes the Night King is actually headed to Kings Landing to scorch the Golden Company as well as the Kings guard raising a larger army with which to March North on Winterfell
I don't follow as detailed as he does or many on here so I'm wondering the thoughts here and how plausible this may be.
I would assume if this come to fruition, somehow Cersei and the mountain escape and flee North for safety where a whooooole lot of weird mojo and plotlines would intersect in a manner not many seem to be suspecting?
EDIT: Re-posted further down outside the sub thread
You can drastically increase your knowledge of the show/books in a few youtube videos if you can commit to watching "Alt Shift X" Youtube channel breakdowns after each episode. As someone who has been watching live for like 7 years, it's really helpful because he brings up all the callbacks and things that are very easy to forget over years and years.
He has lots of explanations of lore and theories as well. In my opinion, he is the premier source of GOT information and breakdowns.
Here is the channel for anyone interested.
I wish I had time to really dig into that. I usually just let my roomate exclaim something of importance and have him briefly explain it to me during lulls in the action
The second episode I honestly feel was the best written dialogue since the show continued from where the books stopped.
Ghost just low-key showing up in the background.../cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/63650638/ghost.jpg.0.png)
After all is said and done, Ghost will be the last one standing and is going to have the burn the rest of the bodies. He will end up on the Iron Throne, and thus, The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe universe will have begun
That was a hand-job of an episode. Some feel good moment, but not what you want from GoT. I agree that they should have combined first two into a longer episode to satisfy the long wait between seasons and left more episodes for wrapping up the show. You could sum up everything so far as Ep 1: Everyone arrives at Winterfell, Jon finds out, Cersie hires an army for backstabbing. Ep 2. They plan for battle, Arya gets laid, Jon tells Danny. Done. Not much else moved. They even started to move some plot lines and then interrupted them (Danny and Sansa, Danny and Jon)!
When do Jon and Sansa get married, unifying the south an the north?
That was a hand-job of an episode
Would you call it "The Stranger", then?
I don't think we see the dead Starks in the crypts rise and fight (at least not for the Night King anyway), for several reasons.
1) Have we ever actually seen the Night King raise something dead that wasn't killed directly by a White Walker/a wight under his thrall? I'm not saying he can't, but we don't know if he can either. To this point everything we've seen come back to life was killed directly by something under his control.
2) Considering all of the character building that has been done about the Stark family, their preparedness, and knowing where the true threat lie for thousands of years, it would be the most un-Stark thing ever for them to leave a handy undead army available directly below Winterfell, not to mention one that would be emotionally devastating to see for any Stark defending the castle in particular.
If they knew that the NK could raise anything dead, one would assume they would have followed a tradition of burning the bodies of the dead. Perhaps the Starks know something else, that these spirits can rise to defend Winterfell. I would just find it hard to believe they would ignore the possibility that the NK would ever reach Winterfell and use the Kings of Winter against them. That's like the entire purpose of the House's existence.
See VTGM's post above. It's believed that the Starks of old knew, and that knowledge has just become tradition.
Most people who I've seen discuss theories of the Starks rising from the dead do not have them fighting alongside the Night King. They point to Benjen's weird half-transformation into a wight/white walker but retaining his humanity and decision making, and the fact that Starks likely share White Walker ancestry in their bloodline. This would (theoretically) allow them to resist the Night King's control, perhaps, with Benjen as the example to defend this possible truth.
I don't have an opinion on whether that happens or not, but most of the theories I've seen surrounding that have them fighting alongside the living.
Moved this from a sub-thread as I am really interested in others thoughts.
My roommate postulates:
We don't see the Night King or the dead dragon at the end of ep2. Just his henchman and a large army of undead. Therefore he believes the Night King is actually headed to Kings Landing to scorch the Golden Company as well as the Kings guard raising a larger army with which to March North on Winterfell
I don't follow as detailed as he does or many on here so I'm wondering the thoughts here and how plausible this may be.
I would assume if this come to fruition, somehow Cersei and the mountain escape and flee North for safety where a whooooole lot of weird mojo and plotlines would intersect in a manner not many seem to be suspecting?
Your roommate Reddits:
https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/bdwuse/spoilers_extended_my_nig...
Yeah, probably does. Then takes credit. And I ignorantly give it to him...
After reading...sounds verbatim. My roomate is plagiarizing
I think this has to be what happens. I just don't think there's enough time in the series for there to be a battle at winterfell and then another battle at kings landing between Cersei and the survivors. I think this this way, we also get past the issue of "who sits on the iron throne and takes kings landing?" because there isn't going to be a King's Landing after the Night King gets there. Also a strong possibility he's not able to raise the people of Kings Landing afterwards because i could see Cersei burning it to the ground with wildfire when she realizes what her fate is.
I don't see it from a logical perspective. He'd have to go through basically every major city in Westeros to get to Kings Landing, that'd be a lot of skipping through places even with a dragon.
As for the episode itself, I found it to have several satisfying payoffs and provide some relatively clear hints (as much as GoT does, at least) as to who bites it during the Battle of Winterfell. Would love to hear everyone else's guesses for episode 3 but here are mine:
1) Theon - I would bet my house on him dying protecting Bran. His entire redemption arc has been completed with not only rescuing his sister, but also the way in which he was welcomed back by Sansa. His story has come to an end and he will go out fighting, not as a Reek.
2) Bran - I have the distinct feeling that he and the NIght King are meant to cancel out each other in some way. I will also say that if he dies, that likely means the NK is gone too.
3) Brienne/Jaime - One of these two is going to go, but not both I think. Again, Brienne's arc has come full circle at this point. Becoming the first female knight ever in Westeros and realizing she had the admiration (and love/respect) of Jaime is the high point. One of these two will watch the other die, hence the plot point to have him fighting alongside her, and I lean towards it being her.
4) Beric - I think this is another slam dunk. He is ready to die one would imagine, and his comment about this being the Lord of Lights moment. I see him sacrificing himself to do something key because of his faith in that.
5) Tormund - I will be sad to see him go, but I can imagine it surrounded by a pile of wights and a WW or two.
6) Dolorous Edd - not really needed as a character anymore, but would still pack emotional punch. Too much foreshadowing in that scene with Jon and Sam.
7) Gendry
8) Podrick
9) Edit - forgot to add Grey Worm. His character is what it is, and after that last kiss and fleeting moments of happiness talking about the future with Missendei, I don't see him surviving the battle.
I would add Jorah and Davos. I think there is room for them in a world after the Night King, but it just feels that given their age and character arcs that they are due for their heroic exits this season.
Jorah made peace with his house, likely ending his character arc.
Agreed on Jorah. Although it won't happen until he takes out a few Walkers. Having him get Heartsbane is pointless unless he does something of importance with it.
I also have Greyworm near the top of my "most likely to die" list.
Yeah I meant to add him there. I think it was set up for him to go whupping some ass with his Unsullied
Zero percent chance Jon, Dany, Arya, and Sansa all survive this battle
I don't think all 4 of them survive the season, but I could see them surviving the battle.
I agree with this. If they're going to split it into either multiple battles (episodes) or 2 separate wars (white walkers, iron throne) I think all 4 of those go towards the very end of the season.
True I could also see them doing something where they make it seem like Arya has died, but she's actually just stolen someone else's face and is still alive. I just don't see them having the biggest battle in the whole series without one of our really main characters dying.
The most likely to me would be Sansa if it happens during the battle. I have trouble seeing either Jon or Dany dying at least until the whole "Which Targaryen wants the throne?" tension is resolved or at least addressed in full. But I do think one of both of them die by the end of the season.
Yea see i think thats going to be their quick way to dissolve that tension is by having one of them die.
Sansa is probably number one on my list of characters most likely to survive to the end of the series.
I think the Mormont lady is more likely to die in the battle than Jorah. This would allow Dany/Jon/Sansa/whoever to pardon Jorah and give him back his lordship. He also was given a named sword which is probably a big deal. This is also all pending on if the living wins.
2) Bran himself said the NK's goal is to kill him to remove all memory of the world. If Bran dies, the NK wins unless the memories are passed to someone else?
Bran had a little storytime session with Tyrion this episode, sooooo....
If Tyrion ended up as the Three-Eyed Raven, that would be incredible. Considering his love of history...
We already know that Bran/TER doesn't reveal everything though. The shout out "The things we do for love" line was fantastic. I don't think he was mad at Jaime because he knew he needed for those events to occur as they did to put him where he is now. He seems to know everything that has happened and why, perhaps not exactly what WILL happen.
The Night King wants to get him to erase man's memory/history. But I get the sense that's not the whole story. It feels like the NK fears Bran somewhat, or at the very least knows he is a threat to him beyond just the memories. Considering Bran know how he was created/how the Starks dealt with him/their plans moving forward, I think its quite possible he is aware of exactly what he needs to do, and it was the easiest explanation to the war counsel to suggest leaving himself as bait to accomplish that.
Maybe he needs bran to prevent himself from becoming the night king?
Good stuff AZ, but you really think Jaime could die? He has a lot of unresolved stuff with Cersei still.
I agree but it seems highly likely that Brienne is donezo.
I want Jamie to kill Cersei.
They wasted a lot of the limited dragon glass on the parapets of Winterfell.
I got the impression they could make as much as they needed considering they had two grown dragons to help provide it.
Everybody was picking up a dragonglass weapon or wielding a bow and some dragonglass arrows, even the guys that didn't know how to fight
No this is what they mined below Dragonstone island. The dragons don't actually make it.
If they survive, then it should be easy enough to remove it from the walls and the pikes to reattach to other weapons.
As for it being mined below Dragonstone, is there anything definitive that says the dragons don't have a hand in making it? Afterall, there were live ones there for quite a long time after the Conquest.
It was there long before the dragons, the night king was created with a piece.
It's probably there to thin out the wights that try to climb the walls at some point. So probably not really a waste if 1/4 to 1/2 die getting over.
They were using it for the Cheval de frise in the trenches outside which made a lot of sense. But the random spots on the castle seemed odd. Unless they just ran out of time to make weapons?
I assume there are lots of leftover shards after making weapons, so that's probably what they stuck to the battlements.
Probably TV constraints. I would assume you'd have more closer together if you were using it as a defensive mechanism, but they had the longest battle sequence ever to film.
I hope they do one of these after next episode
It would look more like
Perhaps it's time to bring back the Red Witch and the magic of The Lord of Light to fight the magic of the Night King. If I were writing the plot that would be a last resort to save mankind after all else fails. Of course, someone with royal blood would need to survive to provide her with the ingredients for her magic.
The Lord of Light will come up this episode, I have a feeling
Even feelings need a good shaving once in awhile...
That Dothraki charge was lit!
Several coworkers and I will be wearing all black tomorrow in morning of the main characters that will die tonight.
Valar morghulis.
Well, guess you can keep your funeral clothes clean
I feel like we will lose Tormund tonight and I'm just not ready for it. Take everyone else.
Same here. I might miss him the most of all
Well uhhhhh. That didn't go as expected. Way too many people survived. And fairly anticlimactic despite how much I love badass Arya
They lost like 10,000 people.
Exactly. And only like 4-5 Named characters died. Some of them pretty minor
Red Witch, Theon, fire sword guy, Lady Mormont, last Night Watch, Jorah, can't verify Sam lived.
Theon's death hurt the most. That dude went through some shit and I wish he could've got a good lick in on the NK.
Sam will live.
When your response to "some of [the characters who died were] pretty minor" is to cite two characters whose names you don't use, it might not be a great argument.
Because I'm awful with names I had to look up Jorah and the kid lady's name too.
Fair enough but I still wouldn't call any of them beyond Theon and Jorah major characters. And even those two are second tier major characters.
No way in hell Sam should have survived that.
Sam is here to write all of this into the history books. In my opinion he's the safest character out there.
No Sam has to die before the story is over so no one can finish the books, that way GRRM doesn't need a real ending.
George is just trolling fan theories on reddit and cherry picking the best bits to finish the books. Give it a few years after the series is over, hype it as the TRUE ending and he'll still make a killing. They did say after the show that they've known for 3 years that Arya was the one to ice the Night King, so that's definitely canon.
I did catch the after show thing.
I don't know. I may not buy the next books, just so the next big author sees the sales drop, and decides not to lollygag on finishing their series,
The North (70% have been ruled out - death) @ Kings Landing. Game 7. LFG.
BAH GAWD THATS ARYA STARKS MUSIC
I'm legit sweating right now. Good episode...not the best of the entire series, but still really good. Hope they explain some shit with Bran....feels weird that the whole Night King thing would be done with no more explanation.
I feel the same way. I want Bran to explain the first night, tell us more about the NKs origin, and fill in what led to everything.
Melisandre's exit was also unsatisfying. Need more answers from her crew.
I wouldn't hold my breath. I'm extremely confident we're on cruise control with a boatload of unanswered questions and plot holes.
Also, seems like they were too afraid to get rid of the fan favorites compared to the past.
Well they talked through all the ending stuff with GRRM so it's not clear who makes the ultimate call on those things.
I had a feeling in the past week that less people than we expected would die. There was so much build up, but that thought wasn't based on anything other than my unfounded intuition.
They are just buttering you up. They didn't kill any one major just so they can all die of dysentery on the way to kings landing. It's the Oregon Trail ending.
LOL, still 3 episodes left to break some hearts.
Yeah I think we are far from safe. Jaime surviving keeps the Valonqar prophecy in play for him to be the one, Tyrion as well.
They also have to fight the Golden company with like 10% of their army. And I THINK two dragons. I'm like 99% sure there were two dragons in one of the preview scenes that was like 1 second long. I highly doubt Rhaegal died from just crashing into the ground.
Edit: According to screenshots from reddit Ghost and Rhaegal survived.
How the fuck did Ghost survive? He rode out with the Dothraki and I didn't see him since. I just assumed everyone but Jorah died in that first wave
You could see some Dothraki running back, also ghost isnt stupid, he's made it thislong.
Ghost survived. He is in the Ep 4 teaser.
10% strength but they have some great close air support. Both dragon will have to lick their wounds though.
And... Yup, Baelish's dagger played it's massive role
After Bran gave it to her nonetheless
Edit: Nevermind
Super blue balls on the night king and white walkers. Really want some explanation on them besides just evil ice man.
Did Jon show that he is impervious to fire?
Not sure. He looked like 5th grade me running from dodge balls.
Jon showed that he was actually impervious to being good in battle and a good general. Like seriously, he's had his ass handed to him in every battle, lol. Someone else is always the one that wins it.
He's also actively tried to get himself killed half a dozen times. Facing Ramsay's army alone at BotB, killing extra wights/going after NK instead of getting on the dragon with everyone north of the wall, yelling at Viserion tonight, to name a few.
I'm told I picked a hell of an episode as my first one ever to watch....
My wife isn't into fantasy and works nights anyways, so I would watch while she was at work and she had a habit of coming home right in the most lewd scene, wondering what the hell is wrong with me for watching an imp in a room full of hookers. This was the first time she sat down with me from start to finish. She fell asleep. Battle of frickin' Winterfell and she's snoring.
I just told a close friend I thought the show seemed "alright" and I pretty sure I could hear him scream in anger here in Galax all the way from Denver.
Are you serious?
/s
So what was the point in bringing Jon back to life if he didn't really play a role in the NK's demise?
Unless you count bringing most everyone together I guess.
*I guess I should have clarified - why did the Lord of Light bring Jon back, not why did the writers
You'll see...
There's still a major battle for the throne.
What does that have to do with the Lord of light though?
This was the purpose of the Lord of Light. He united everyone and brought them together to face the Night King. I see people theorizing about the Iron Throne, but it feels like they closed the Lord of Light chapter with the NK death and Melisandre and Beric's goal to keep Arya alive fulfilled.
The Lord of Light bringing Jon back didn't necessarily mean that he was to kill the NK.
Most importantly he kept bringing Beric back and we see why, Beric saved Arya and she destroyed the NK.
That's my point - Beric's role in bringing down the NK was made abundantly clear and then Melisandre straight up told us just for good measure why Beric was brought back. Jon seems to have been brought back for a much less direct role.
I'm curious to see if things end up different in the books (if they're ever finished). Plus, maybe we'll get some more info in the coming episodes.
If Jon doesn't come back then there is no stand at winterfell. Ayra doesn't get the chance because everyone dies a lot quicker without the dragons, and the NK walks right up to Bran without Theon killing everyone.
If Jon doesn't come back then Dany never goes to the North with her dragons, the NK doesn't kill and resurrect one of them, and the dead never break through the wall. It's explicitly stated that the wall cannot be broken by the dead alone, hence the need for the dragon.
I'm wondering if the NK really needed a dragon at all. Couldn't the dead just walk around the wall if the water by Eastwatch froze over?
There is magic in the wall they can't get past until they knock it down.
Arya was heading to Kings Landing until she heard about Jon being back in Winterfell
If I were 15 years younger I'd let Arya beat me up.
Man that was one of the most ball busting opening scenes with the Dothraki. Seeing their lights go out one by one, Jesus.
Man, that was a rush. It was awesome. I see some complaints about people saying it was too dark but I think that was purposeful and added to it. "The Night is dark and full of terrors". You're facing death. It's suppose to be dark and confusing. You're getting a visual feeling of what the characters are experiencing. Also, if its really that damn dark, adjust your TV settings. I upped the brightness just a tad on mine and had no trouble whatsoever following along.
But I gotta admit though. I'm a little less excited to see what happens next. That was such a high climax that I don't think it can reach those heights again
Damn Gendry crafts Arya this perfect dragon glass weapon and she loses it.
Well she was just in it for the sex.
She used it to perfection though. She was slaying WW's left and right.
If they done a little more thinking about the battle beforehand:
Have an outer wall of fire that they light as soon as the dead arrive. Have archers shoot flaming arrows and hurl the flaming boulders into the dead as long as they can. The dragons should be raining fire on them as well. Then if any of the dead breach the fire wall have the Dothraki mow them down. If they get overwhelmed they retreat and the dragons knock out the dead and relight the wall. Do this until it's impossible and then pull back inside the second wall of fire and inside the city. When the dead start scaling the walls dump flaming tar on them. Would've liked to see the heroes pull out all the stops in this one.
Night King would have just buried it all in snow and ice. Dude was just biding his time letting his army overwhelm the defenses, and smash the defenders so he could waltz in and stab Bran. Any time something went against this basic plan he basically snapped his fingers and put out a great counter. Dragons torching his wights and coming after his homies? Ice storm. Knocked off his undead dragon and Jon Snow, a great 1v1 fighter, chasing him down ... raise a bunch of fresh wights and start walking. Jon Snow makes it into the castle and is closing in on the Godswood.. drop that undead dragon on him. etc etc.
The basic point was that there was never going to be a way to beat the Night King's army straight up, no matter the tactics. The only way was to bait him into thinking he has a path to victory and then strike at the last moment when he's got his eyes on the prize.
Also we should remember these people haven't fought the undead army before. Even Jon's crew and the Night's Watch never really fought them in a pitched battle and won... they fought a controlled retreat and a smash-and-grab-and-run... And neither of those battles went all that well for the living. Tactics were very much still under development. Then there's the whole expertise thing. A great plan or tactic only works if your team can execute. So when your army is good at something you let them do what they do best rather than gambling on an alternate tactic that they're probably not going to execute at a high level and might not work anyway.
I do think it would have been a little bit more realistic for the Dothraki to be used as a counter-attack force sweeping in. from the sides of the horde. But I question how effective they'd be in even optimal situation because a large part of their prowess is sowing confusion and fear among their enemies (wights don't care) and I was never clear on whether their weapons made of valerian steel? Because if not, they weren't going to make much headway against the wights no matter the tactics.
Regular weapons work just fine against the wights.
But you make a great point about tactics against the dead in general. It reminds me a lot of World War Z (the awesome book, not the mediocre movie) and the Battle of Yonkers. Wherein the best military tech in the world is useless and the armed forces get routed because it's being used against an enemy that will not react like living people would and have zero self preservation concerns. It would have been really hard to develop tactics on the fly to combat an army literally no one living has ever faced in a pitched battle.
The wights arnt afraid of charging Dothraki. Humans are
The wights don't give a shit about crawling into a flaming trench. Humans do
The wights will just pour over elite Unsullied. No human army would be foolish enough to do that.
Even then, the visuals were dead on with what we saw in the WWZ movie.
They just swarm like ants and overwhelm you with sheer volume. Doesn't matter how many you have because they're literally a rolling wave that is 2-3 creatures high and coming at an insane pace. At that point, it doesn't matter what you do, the infestation is going to overwhelm you.
This was actually one of the biggest problems with the movie vs the book. In the book, they aren't fast. They just plod along at a slow walk. They still overwhelm you, but not at an insane pace. The issue at the battle of yonkers was that to kill them in the book you had to get a clean headshot. The idea was that even HE (a modern warriors best friend) does very little to them. In the end, they actually adopted Napoleonic tactics with .22 rifles and would walk into an area and just head shot the zombies all day long firing by ranks. Their rate of fire was just as fast as the zombies could walk, but accurate enough to be effective against them.
Wights don't die to regular weapons.
Yes they do, they are the regular zombies. White walkers are the beings that only die to dragon glass or valyrian steel.
They come apart they don't die, that's why the hands kept moving after them at the council between the different groups. It doesn't "kill" them.
Also the impression I had.
https://www.bustle.com/p/how-do-you-kill-wights-on-game-of-thones-there-...
Then its a huge inconsistency because in both Hardhome and Winterfell thousands of them died without their pieces continuing on.
Kill in the sense of ending their effectiveness for combat. To that end, regular swords and weapons chop them up just fine.
Granted you need fire or dragon glass to "kill" them, but there were thousands of them left dead again at the battles without the use of either
They definitely do, otherwise our characters never survive Hardhome, let alone this battle
I think it goes something like this:
dragonglass/valyarian steel - one good stab or slash will take them out - see Theon one-shotting wight after wight with obsidian arrows.
fire - burns them to death, but takes a minute
regular weapons - gotta cut that wight into pieces, this is your last resort
That was a fantastic episode. So many moving parts. Just amazing how it all tied together. Arya was incredible. What a character arc during the whole thing.
As much as I enjoyed it, the planning for the battle was outrageously bad. I'm not sure if they had any military consultants on-hand but man they deserved to lose for how shite their planning was.
Dothraki wasted as a plot device to pull Dany into the fight early. They should have been held in reserve waiting to charge the flank or even the rear, not ride blindly into the night at an unseen foe. The lighting of the swords was cool and all but a complete waste.
And why is the army even outside of both the wall and the fire moat for that matter? You have a castle. Defend it. Let the opposing side lay siege. The Unsullied and some of the army should have been behind the moat picking them off as the breached. While the archers and the trebuchets (that were barely used) thumped them from behind the walls. The rest of the army actually in the Castle ready to defend it.
They knew there was an enemy dragon? Where were the scorpion ballista to shoot at it?
I wish the dagger flop to Arya's other hand was shown at actual speed. The slow motion is cool but it seems like plenty of time for the Night King to react. IMO, would have been badass if Arya jumped knowing she may get caught and reacted with her catlike reflexes instantly dropping the dagger for the killing blow.
Mel dying walking into the snow seems like a waste. I thought she left long ago from dragonstone to go find help anyway. I guess she found nothing and turned back. Her snapping Arya out of her funk was good though. Wish she would have died in some kind of fire battle with a white walker or something. I was certain that she was going to save Davos. I thought maybe the dead would be close to breaching the Crypt and he arrived to fight them back but was soon overrun, only to be saved by Mel blasting some white walkers but dying in the process.
Speaking of which, where were those fools? They were all hanging out in the rear, waiting. I kept thinking how cool it would be when they finally entered the battle and we saw some cool fights with some of the lead characters. Would have been awesome if the good guys were somehow stemming the tied and then those guys entered the battle and started wrecking some shit turning it back towards the dead.
Finally, the scene when Dany is driven from Drogon is a bit forced. She knew there were dead rising all around. She obviously saw them around Jon. So why stay on the ground? Why land at all? Just hover over the battle and blast some fools. The Jorah scene was very good though, but not as good as Lyanna Mormont killing the zombie Giant. That was epic.
anyway. nitpicking because it's all after the fact and the episode was damn good. Can't wait for the conclusion.
Yea, Jon is an awful military leader. Battle of the bastards and now this. Why is the artillery in front of the troops? (I do get why it's not in Winterfell, it's not big enough courtyards). They should have had the entire battlefield covered in oil to light to burn the fallen behind them to prevent the night king from getting more troops.
The courtyards always look plenty big when they show Winterfell from the sky, but then cramped when on the ground. They should fit in scale with the aerial view.
For the oil, I suppose they could just not have had enough.
True. Jon isn't a great general, but I don't think the show or the book, as far as it has gotten, is trying to depict him as so. Jon has routinely been against insurmountable odds that often required intervention of some 3rd party to secure the victory BUT I think the point with Jon is more that he is a courageous leader that is able to command men to stand and fight against those kind of odds.
But for this battle they have some very seasoned minds all in one place. Jaime, Breanne, Jorah, Grey Worm, Tyrion, Jon, Dany, Beric, The Hound, The Vale Knights (where were they btw??), etc. For all those gifted minds at combat this plan was a complete failure.
To be fair they had limited supplies and no one you mentioned had fought a war against the undead.
well... disagree. You don't need to have fought against the undead or have additional supplies for anything I said (except maybe some scorpion ballista). Just someone with military tactics training which many of them had.
Anyway, like I said those are nitpicking details from an otherwise great show.
There are a lot of horrible military tactics in GoT. Stannis was known for his military mind and he never did well. Battle of black water wasnt over until Tywin showed up with help, BoBastards needed the Vail to show up late. Rob Stark was the only smart tactician on the series. Basically you have to expect everyone to do the dumbest thing.
But yes calvary is never really up front. They should be flanking because they can move.
However, they could have done things better and still got to where we were at. They were out numbered and every death counts against them twice.
Absolutely loved the episode but I have one question and my wife planted the seed, I think back now to Beric and his sacrifice and all the foreshadowing to Arya being the one to take out the NK and I seen the White walkers hair blow, but did she really just run through them untouched? What's the chances she jumped one and then was able to take on his appearance? Maybe I'm missing something from the lack of oxygen from holding my breath. I'm going to have to rewatch it.
I'm thinking she was able to get into the godswood before the NK got there and climbed into the tree ready to pounce from above.
As a part of the Faceless Men I think she was able to become someone else in the woods possibly? Not sure to be frank, just throwing out guesses.
That was along our line of thinking too but she had already snuck up on Jon in the same spot so maybe she's just that damn good.
The scene with her evading the walkers inside Winterfell makes it abundantly clear she can move quickly without being heard. Combine that with her ability to take any face (possibly the face of the walker she stabbed in the f'n jaw in that same scene) and yeah, it does make sense that she could get to there undetected.
Also, remember that sparring scene with Brienne in I want to say episode 2?
Absolutely on the cat-like stealth and the ability to switch hands. I just hope they go back and cover how she did it. Don't care if she swings out of a tree or double back flips off Drogon, I just want to know at this point lol
My question about her jumping out of a tree is that the closest tree was behind Bran and in front of the Night King. The space behind the Night King was largely treeless, and she definitely came from behind/maybe to the side of the NK.
edit: I'm actually in the camp who doesn't really care about where she came from because I trust her ability training as a faceless man/assassin to be the one who could sneak up and pull off that surprise attack. I am just posting my thoughts about the "she was in the tree" theory.
The theory is she slips past the White Walkers. You can see the wind blow their hair and they turn to see what it was, then Arya strikes.
Though, being that stealthy and then screaming as you jump seems counter-intuitive.
Yeah this is pretty much what I thought happened when it happened live. The first I had even heard of this "from the tree" theory was on here.
Yeah. I prefer not to know how exactly this happened because it's unlikely to make much sense.
How long did it take her to slip from the room with the wights which had a lot of cover? Yet now she somehow slips by the white walkers and the huge circle of wights where there is zero cover.
In terms of cinematography/visuals/emotions, great episode. Unfortunately in terms of plot/strategy, not very strong.
I mean, it's kinda' like when Jamie charged Drogon along the river bank, but when Bronn knocked him in the water - suddenly it's 50 feet deep?
Is Ed Sheeran still alive?
Yeah but his face got burned off, the whores are talking about him in the scene with Bromm 1st episode.
I was....distracted, in that scene.
He is alive but lost his eye lids on the dragon attack on the Laniscter army. The whores were talking about him.
Watched it live on HBO Now. Was surprised to see that as soon as the episode was available (a few minutes to nine), one was able to fast forward to the end, and said that it loud. Wife heard me, and came downstairs term minutes later saying "Holy shit, you should see that ending!" Major potential for "Snape kills Dumbledore!"-level spoilage on the Twitters. Could you imagine someone tweeting "HOLY SHIT, ARYA JUMPS OUT OF THE TREE AND KILLS THE NIGHT KING" at 9:10pm?
HBO Now is the best for this reason IMO. I've never seen someone skip ahead but I'm usually two-three minutes ahead of my Twitter feed.
To each their own, but idk how the hell anyone can live tweet during this show. I don't even have a twitter but I throw my phone to the other side of the room until the credits roll lol
It's usually just a quick little tweet lol. Nothing major.
Did she jump out of the tree?
Either that or she has a future career in the Westeros Basketball Association with that vertical.
That was my thought. She got some insane height on that leap, so maybe it was from the tree.
I've watched a few times in slow motion on the TiVo and while I can't say she didn't jump from the tree it doesn't look like a jump from above but from Behind. Combine this with the scene right before where "something" moves the nights kings Lieutenants hair and I think that is Arya moving past him.
I basically had this happen with one of the episodes a few years ago where my roommate kinda jokingly said someone died at the end of the episode. Watched the episode nearly right after and just didn't believe him until I saw it for myself and didn't lose much of the surprise. I think with something like this, were there are so many options for what could happen to who, its hard to take everything you see like that literal. If you develop your own theories, you probably aren't going to just accept what someone posts on twitter right before you experience it. Its not like a sporting event where the final result can be spoiled easily, since a team will either win or lose.
No one on here thought the episode was a little dark? Like I get battle scenes being dark for the dramatic effect (and you know it being night time) but throw some anchors in there so I can at least tell wtf is going on. I'm going to have to re-watch everything again tonight.
Make sure you turn your TV to movie or Cinema mode for the picture.
Yeah I wasn't at my house. I would have been messing with the TV settings but I wasn't going to hold everyone else up from squinting.
Rewatched it with some adjusted picture settings still dark but could see what was going on. Really enjoyed it more.
Notes from watching it a second time:
- The Red Woman could be blamed for quite a few deaths, bitch there are hundreds of thousands of wights coming at you and you need to light the trench....a little hustle please.
- Arya certainly has some major ups.
- Dany is still a dumbass for inexplicably sitting on the ground for so damn long.
My thoughts too the second time I watched this.
Well, she was terrified and had been losing her faith since Stannis and didn't manage to recruit anyone in Essos. She was also probably drained a bit from lighting all the Dothraki.
I'm not talking about her magic deal I'm talking about literally walking all dramatic up there. Power walk, light job, something a bit more speedy.
Well, the night is dark and full of terror
Who's making these they're great
Really enjoyed the episode but as mentioned above there are a number of questions remaining that will likely go unanswered.
The writers sampled some of the great scenes from classic movies.
Arya in the library = Jurassic Park kitchen scene
Army of the dead charging into the Unsullied = The Dead King's Army in Lord of the Rings
Arya killing Night King = Eowyn killing Nazgul King in LoTR
Big notice on the nod to the JP kitchen scene. I feel like that was absolutely what they were sampling there now that you mention it. My first thought when I was watching it was "this is the super frustrating level on a video game where you have to navigate a crowded room with stealth."
In the Behind the Thrones about this episode the director was talking about how they had something like 8 or 9 wights patrolling the library along different overlapping paths, then told Maisie to try and sneak through unseen. I wonder how much of her route in the final cut ended up being planned out and how much was improv from Maisie.
I've seen some discussion about Jon's lack of military successes. He won the battle of the wildlings after the dude on top of the wall went straight coward. He had the right plan with the information he had in the battle of the bastards, he just didn't heed Sansa's advice not to let Ramsey bait him into a mistake. Sansa witheld information about the Vail for that battle. I think he had the right strategic plan for he battle of Winterfell, considering that unless someone killed the NK, the living lose anyway. Using Bran as the ploy to draw the NK out was the right plan overall, Tactically, Jon and the war counsel wasn't very smart last night but again, as it turned out, it didn't matter what the battle plan was, unless the NK was killed everyone was going to die. I wonder how they're going to raise an army to go south though.
Plot twist coming, Bran's useless self is gonna ressurect the dead for a army of the living and theyll go make cersi walk another walk of shame.
Def agree Jon is a very heat of the moment Stark minded fool all about honor and while his plans are usually good he has the stark tendency to try and do the right thing even if it screws him up tactically.
The whole battle of the bastards went tits up because Sansa withheld a shit ton of good info and didnt trust jon cause she thinks shes so witty and cant trust her brother.
Also: I was dead certain they were going to slow motion the episode out and just cut to black with either bran or NK's face on the screen. Time was ticking down fasttt.
I think one of the biggest questions in the aftermath of the episode that doesn't seem to have any good answers at the moment is: What Bran was doing warging into that unkindness of Ravens? We see him fly them near some dragon fire then they kind of fly off and aren't seen again despite Bran clearly still being in warg state until the very end of the episode. I can't imagine that having no importance, but it could also be something as simple as just using them to track the NK's whereabouts.
Yeah at first I thought it was just to catch the NK attention and make him focus on coming to Bran but why he stayed like that the entire episode I didn't understand.
The main issue I have with the end of the Night King so quickly is that the rest of Westeros has no idea it was a severe existential threat. They may rally around Cersei as one of their own now that Dany's only option with her armies destroyed is to unleash the dragons more liberally.
Or just unleash Arya.
I don't know about y'all, but I got irrationally mad at Daenerys when she landed the dragon after helping Jon, felt so sad watching those whites crawl all over and stab him over and over and him not be able to shake them off
Yeah the amount of "fly away bitch"-s that came out of my mouth was at least 30.
I internally panic whenever the dragons are in danger as if I'm watching a dog in position to potentially die. I was standing on my feet on the couch as soon as the dragon fighting started. I took it as an unexpected "miscue" on her part that is bound to happen in the chaos of a battle. It's easy to say in hindsight how stupid it was to do that, but I think having those "brainfart" moments in a crazy, hectic situation makes it more realistic. I feel the same way about some of Jon's tactical/decision making errors throughout the series. He has some great successes, but he also has moments where he ends up facing an oncoming Ramsay army by himself, or yelling(?) at an undead dragon from 5 feet away. Those little mistakes feel like real decisions you could make in the moment without the benefit of hindsight.
I hate to say it, but the quality of the writing has taken a huge nosedive since the show passed were the books left off. It just feels like a generic hollywood superhero movie where everyone important has a crazy amount of plot armor. I hope they prove me wrong with some plot twists down the stretch because the first three episodes have been extremely predictable.
Safe to say the books will be quite different. Hell, Beric isn't even around anymore having breathed life into Lady Stoneheart.
And the Night King doesn't even exist in the books. There is the Night's King from the tale told to Bran in the beginning, but they have entirely different origin stories and, according to GRRM, are two distinct characters.
I think the Night King exists in the books, we just havn't seen him yet.
And I am referring to the two separate characters. In the books they havnt even gone to Hardhome yet.
Martin said the end of the show will be the same as the end of the books. And the producers last night indicated they have known for 3 years Arya was the one that would kill the NK. That leads me to believe he will be in the books, just not to this point.
You right.
So it sounds like the major plot points will be very similar, but I guess the "how they get there" will be different.
I enjoyed the episode thoroughly, but I would put the battle behind Hardhome in terms of my favorite in the series.
My only real complaint is the lack of info on the Night King and no utilization of the White Walkers at all. I feel like they made the point of having multiple skilled fighters present with Valyrian steel swords, I figured we would get at least one moment of a duel with a WW. Watching Brienne fight one to save Jaime for example would have been awesome. I loved Arya punking all those wights and then the NK, But is it too much to ask for Bran to give us some insight on him before the series ends?
Speaking of Bran, as mentioned above it seems to me that he was doing something more than warging into those ravens during the entire episode.
Things I loved:
The smug look on the Night King's face after Drogon tried to roast him
Jorah going out like a boss, Dany crying and the dragon comforting her.
The way Beric's sacrifice played out
The Hound being scared and seeing Arya causing him to snap out of it
Melisandre's callback to when she last saw Arya with the Brotherhood
The bravery and composure of the Unsullied
Mormont killing the giant
The moments between Sansa and Tyrion were also fantastic. I feel like those will play into the end of the series, perhaps with both of them ruling?
This is pretty much exactly how I felt. I'm not sure where I rank it yet on all-time GoT battles, but I definitely agree there was a missed opportunity for some WW duels. However, we have seen enough white walker deaths that we know outside of their enhanced strength, they are not built for one on ones. Pretty much any knick or light touch from a Valyrian steel/dragonglass blade shatters them instantly. That puts them at an extreme disadvantage in any 1v1.
Yep the NK's plan was basically have his boys stand back and manage the fight remotely through wight-vision and let the countless wights do the dirty work. Having the Walkers get up close and personal and fight anyone 1v1 would have been bad planning on their part, and they are definitely portrayed as cold, calculated style of villains so it would not have really fit with their characterization. Even at Hardholme they don't enter the battle until near the end when it seems like the humans are routed.
At Winterfell they only rolled in once the defense was completely smashed and round 2 of wights had been raised, but ultimately even entering the castle in the first place was the NK plan's only flaw.. the hubris of the NK wanting to end Bran / 3-eyed Raven personally. (or maybe he needed to do the deed with his special ice sword to really kill the 3-Eyed raven?)
There was a clear arrogance displayed by the NK by the end. His smug look after the dragon fire didn't work. His raising the second round of the dead after staring down Snow.
By that point there was nothing he thought he needed to worry about. Not that he ever seemed particularly worried.
Whether he needed to kill Bran personally, I'm sure he wanted to for his own reasons regardless
Did the NK surviving the dragon flame mean he's a Targaryan? And Dany survived fire but her brother died indirectly from fire. What's the deal with Targaryan's and fire and does it have anything to do with the NK?
No. NK became the night king long before the Targaryan's were around.
Nah, he's just the embodiment of 0 degrees Kelvin. Too cold to get burned by anything. Just his little winter storm was enough to keep the trench from being lit without Mel countering with fire magic.
Yeah, I think that was just another opportunity to show how powerful he was.
Unlikely we'll ever get an explanation on who the NK ever was, at least without the books.
I knew the NK was going to survive a dragon blast the second that Bran said "I don't know.... nobody has tried" when asked if dragon fire could kill him the previous episode.
Gotta say battle of the bastards takes the cake for me, I actually felt kinda meh about the battle last night cause the battle of the bastard set such a high bar for me the way it played out was perfect. That said thats one hell of a high bar and cant complain thought last night was brilliant edge of the seat freaking out stuff.
There's only a couple episodes left, and we still need to resolve King's Landing.
I think that the whole WW/NK storyline has come to its conclusion. There just isn't enough time to introduce, develop, and resolve anything more with this plot without seriously detracting from the other.
If it were valid, wouldn't Bran have been killed when the NK died, just like all the other WW and Wights? Maybe there was a possibility for something, but it seems pretty definitive the magic of the walkers appears to be over
this is "Arya is really the Waif in disguise" level theorycrafting.
Bran is super poker faced at all times and wouldn't react to the NK being in his face anymore than anyone else. He also has a really good read on how people are going to react to things.. probably from spending a lot of time greenseeing into their pasts. Compliment Theon = Theon will run headlong to a courageous death, slightly delaying the NK, slightly boosting the NK's sense of invincibility, setting him up for being surprised by Arya.
NK was practically gloating that he was about to win, basically celebrating too soon, and this guy is reading it as hesitating because he doesn't want to do it?
I think there is still possibility with this (I think it's much lower now) but I don't think it's the same situation and his personal logic just seems like swiss cheese. We know why the Night King marked Bran. If it was also the same kind of touch he uses to turn the babies or Viserion (which I think was just a wight, not specifically a White Walker dragon), then it was an auxiliary usage of that turning power because his primary intention was definitely to mark Bran so he could locate him. For this to be true, his mark on Bran would also have to be operating under a delay (which tangents the discussion into a new direction of why?) His touching of the baby (not dead) and Viserion (dead already) took instant effect.
Not to mention, if all it took was a simple touch, Arya is fucked, since you know, he had her by the throat
The touch the Night King gave Bran was inside one of his visions, not in meatspace. That's probably the big difference, here. If the Night King had touched Bran in meatspace, then Bran would no longer be among the living (if he could be considered such right now).
Great show, glad that Tormund and Ghost made it.
During the battle we were entrenched and doing our part with a bottle of Buffalo Trace.
There was one "speculated ending" that I wish had come true though... the one where the NK went south with his dragon and singlehandedly took Kings Landing while the battle of Winterfell was unfolding. I *so* wanted to see Cersei standing beside the NK as an evil zombie.
She's not one already?
I had convinced myself that was gonna happen but when I first saw him appear I couldnt help but think what a dipshit cause I knew he had to die now or the shows a waste. Just think they werent expecting it at kings landing and then the NK would have what 1 million at least more wights? and then the north would have no where to retreat.
That speculated ending did make a hell of a lot of sense IMO, and I was looking forward to evil Cersei becoming even more evil. I envisioned her treacherously stealing the NK's power and killing him herself.
Cersei with the army of the dead behind her would have been the ultimate villain.
Now the villains who are left don't even understand how bad it could have been.
Minimalist depleted good guys battle remaining bad guys with the help of a couple of dragons. Lots of "feel good" opportunities left, but... the series goes out with a sputter.
Hope I am wrong and/or that the FGM's are very good.
I think that this does prove the theory that the Night King is an ancient Stark - because a Stark dude can be counted on doing something incredibly stupid to get themselves killed.
Man I hope they dont rush the conclussion from this battle I feel like there are alot of good things to come from slowing down a little and playing some stuff out to help finish up the long night story line after the way they built it up kinda sucks its over so quickly.
Arya takes Jaimes face confirmed!
via GIPHY
I thought for a minute that the night king was going to walk up to Bran and bend the knee and the show would cut with everyone going "WTF!!!"
I also had this thought... and it would have been way better
Random thought with all the memes and everything coming out of last nights episode. I hope someone out there has the know how to turn Beric's flaming sword throw to save Arya into a slip/fall compilation. Think about it, skate boarder goes up for a tail slide BAM! Flaming sword in his back, exploded knee.
Arya killing the NK just seemed a little too easy for me. I was really hoping that our heroes would converge on him in a desperate attempt to bring him down. I could have seen John trying in vain to duel him, Bran trying to distract him by playing mind checkers with him, and when all seems lost Arya sneaks in for the precision strike to the heart.
In the context we had established around the White Walkers, most notably their instant shattering upon even a minimum level of contact with Valyrian Steel/dragonglass, GRRM and the showrunners were somewhat backed into a corner with how to kill the Night King. I think they chose a pretty dramatic/suspenseful way to do it. The other option would have been him getting into a standard sword fight until he gets hit somewhere on his body and shatters. This way at least made it seem like he was about to kill Bran and win.
The reason that Arya was able to kill the Night King is because she uses Valyrian steel AND she stabs him in the spot the Children of the Forest pierced him with dragon glass to create him.
Is this explicitly stated or are we just assuming this was required? I don't recall them ever saying he had to be stabbed in the heart, every other white walker went down from any contact. It might be symbolic for it to have been the heart, but for what I remember being said, there is nothing explicitly stating it had to be this way.
I'm genuinely asking because I do not recall any mention of this heart stab requirement.
I think it makes sense for it to be that way all the other wights died from dragons fire but he didnt so I think its a fair assumption to say he needed to be undone in the way he had been cursed almost.
Wights - vulnerable to any fire. White Walkers - immune to fire. The question was would dragon fire be different, the answer was no.
It was not in the show, but it was confirmed by Benioff and Weiss.
I am not a fan of that explanation, but ...
I'm particularly not fond of this explanation because are we to assume Arya just got lucky? All the established lore on White Walkers was pretty much "hit them anywhere and they shatter." Nobody ever told her, "hey we might have to stab him in the heart because that's how the children of the forest made him, even though that isn't true for any of the other White Walkers." Surely the heart is a basic target for an assassin, probably second only to the throat, but I just cannot get behind a theory that requires a lucky choice by Arya, whether her own choice or simply the luck of physics that she was being held at such an angle that her lower hand was right near his heart.
I agree with most of that.
We all knew the Night King was different from the rest, so I would've expected him to get into a sword fight with Jon or someone to only find out his Valyrian sword did not cause him to die like it does the other White Walkers.
I think it was more important for the showrunners to have Arya killing the Night King be very unexpected, so they tried to keep the number of clues that she'd kill the Night King to a minimum.. Also, maybe Bran will provide some actual useful exposition in the next 3 episodes.
Edit: here are the show runners explaining that scene.
After watching the video, it's unclear to me if it is actually a requirement to kill the Night King or the showrunners felt it needed to be that way because it would be especially symbolic. Perhaps they discussed it with GRRM and that idea will be developed in the books but was cut from the show. Regardless I don't think they did a good job of conveying that idea at any point in the show.
That was never stated and it would make no sense to have that point exposed in his armor if that's the only spot that can kill him.
Youre telling me youd rather have a mind battle than arya saving the day?
via GIPHY
While watching episode 3, I was on the edge of my seat loving every second of it. But after it finished, I was kinda left not enjoying it as much when watching it. Beginning parts were great, especially waiting in formation. Once the battle started, it seemed like every character died at least 10 times and then somehow appeared in the next scene.
My biggest issue with the show was the use of Bran. His entire story, and arc has revolved around this battle versus the white walkers, and then he did nothing. I hope next episode explains it more. If not, all his character development was for nothing other than being white walker bait. You could remove him and the story would not change much, and now I don't know how he would affect the last few episodes since he has not been involved in the southern politics.
At the end it felt like their goal was solely to create the longest filmed epic battle scene in tv/movie history. They did this and it was a great battle, it just did not feel like it did this story line and all of the involved characters in this plot justice.
Assuming Bran's story is over is a big stretch, he's the most powerful person still alive in the series....
I can't quite figure out how they're gonna go take Kings landing with the A-Team and 2 dragons and no army so I'm banking on bran has a larger role to play still cause I can't see how else they can succeed around that.
Still a chance Yara Greyjoy makes an appearance.
Could see Daario Naharis make a return.
Also looked like a large group of Unsullied survived.
Bran was warging and likely had more of a direct impact to the outcome of the battle than it appears on the surface, I doubt he was just going on a scenic tour of Winterfell - there are theories out there if you want to google. Also, where did Arya's dagger come from?
Bran.
The dagger belonged to Littlefinger. He gave it to the assassin to try to kill Bran in season 1 and blame it on Tyrion to spark conflict between the Starks and Lannisters. Littlefinger gave it to Bran last season, and Bran gave it to Arya because it would be wasted on him.
The dagger also appears in an old book that Sam was reading at the Citadel. It must be fairly ancient, and was pictured amidst discussion of the Targaryens decorating their weapons with dragonglass. I suspect the dagger's history is quite extensive. Whether we ever get a full reveal or not remains to be seen, but probably not (nor is it essential, would just be interesting if there was some magical element to it).
The name of the dagger is Cat'sPaw.
It's a magic Valerian steel dagger.
I'm wondering why we haven't heard more about the trumpet they found at the Fist of the First man that Sam lugged all over the place. I suspect that'll be later during the war with Cersi. It'll call the dead Starks or something.
Also, what about Melisandra's predictoin of the Sword of Light? I think we may see another manifestation of either the ?Night King of some other dead. Melisandra didn't channel the God of Light to raise Jon Snow from the dead just to run around a battlefield ineffectively.
pretty sure it's "catspaw" without the apostrophe.
The horn Sam has is suspected to be the Horn of Winter that either could topple the wall or repair it. Perhaps the magical item used during it's original construction.
Hopefully we see some resolution on the Azor Ahai prophecy, but maybe that is one that will be left for the books. Although I have seen some speculation that the Catspaw dagger is actually reforged from Lightbringer which is how Arya "really" killed the NK. Again maybe that is something that will only be known from the books.
pretty sure it's an unnamed Valyrian steel dagger, it's only referred to as the catspaw dagger for easy reference since it was first presented to the audience when used in Bran's attempted assassination.
https://gameofthrones.fandom.com/wiki/Valyrian_steel_dagger
It's not a named weapon like Ice, Oathkeeper, Heartsbane, etc.
note: In the TV series it's implied that Littlefinger sent the catspaw assassin. In the books it's implied Joffery did. In neither venue is the dagger referred to by a specific name.
I think you misunderstood what I meant. I didn't mean it was a "named" blade. just that it is referred to as catspaw without the apostrophe
absolutely. but in my defense your post seem to be a simple correction of the spelling/capitalization of the weapon's name, rather than pointing out it's not actually a named weapon
This is correct. It's only colloquially referred to as the "catspaw dagger".
From Wikipedia,
The catspaw in this case refers to the hired thug that was sent to kill Bran. Thus the colloquial name for the dagger, as it was "his" dagger.
Ha, I know - I was trying to convey to Hokiebuzz that Bran is more involved than it may initially appear
So much for that whole Azor Ahai prophecy...
Was really hoping that John would fulfill that in some epic way. But if anyone else was gonna kill the knight king, Arya ain't bad.
I really hope that the Prince That Was Promised storyline will be approached in some meaningful way in the next three episodes.
Well Arya was mistaken for a boy for like a season or so early on....
It would be something if Qyburn (spelling) figured out how to make a White Walker before Jon and Danny turn south.
bingo. like I said before, it didn't take a tactical genius to follow some basic understanding of how to defend a castle and fight an opponent with a larger army, and they had plenty of seasoned military men. However, they also need the show to move past the battle outside the castle and move into the castle for the character scenes so getting rid of the bulk army in the quickest way possible was undoubtedly ideal.
That, and no matter the tactics the living were going to lose unless the NK was killed. The show had the NK wait until most of the living were overrun by the dead before the NK and the other walkers arrived. While tactically the battle plan was poor, I agree, I think they wanted to speed things up to get the NK face to face with Bran.
Worth noting, whatever the plan was went out the window when Dany mounted her dragon after seeing the Dothraki destroyed. Then Jon joined, the dragons were out early, and any potential tactical advantage was destroyed with timing, people not sticking to their duties, etc.
Planning was all about drawing out the Night King, not about defeating the army of walkers.
This episode (in a vaccuum) was pretty incredible, but like others here, I'm unsatisfied.
This paragraph from a Forbes article succinctly describes my frustration:
My other big complaint was with the red women. In season 2(?) there was a scene where she removed the magic necklace and her true age showed. I always thought that scene would have huge significance, but it appears that it does not.
A friend told me that a lot of info on the Night King is being withheld so hbo can use in a spin-off series. Since we're probably not getting it in this series, I guess I hope she's right?
I wouldnt say the red woman wasn't a good arc. The charm was the Lord of lights way of keeping her alive to keep Arya on her quest just like he brought beric back a thousand times to save Arya as well. I would argue her arc was very well done we knew she was ancient after she took the charm off on the earlier show so we all knew she wasn't gonna last much longer.
That said I think the episode was phenomenal was the night king arc kinda meh? Sure but he never talked so unless we get some serious bran time to explain it all I don't know how much we ever will know on it other than it was a huge conflict that forced Danny to help Jon and earn the norths trust at the same time.
I agree.. without getting into the nitty gritty they made it clear that Melisandre had been working for centuries to fullfill the prophecy as she interpreted it. Of course her efforts were full of mistakes but they still ended up contributing to all the right people being alive and in Winterfell at the right time to take down the night king.
she's either an agent of fate or the lord of light (or bran?) was actually sending her the signals she needed to be getting at the specific times... Stannis needs to go north to save Jon/Night's Watch ... better tell Melisandre he's the chosen one and needs to defend his people from the white walkers.
etc etc
Hadnt even thought of that angle that maybe Bran is the lord of light or thats one of the rolls the three eyed raven plays.
Other question on Bran could he potentially warg to control a human?
"Bran is the Lord of Light" is one of the current hot theories on reddit. It took the place of the "Night King flying to King's Landing instead of Winterfell" theory as current GoT reddit theory of the week.
I have read this as well. Theory is that the NK used one of the other gods (forget the name) power to create the wights with Ice, while Bran uses the Lord of Lights power to create wights with fire (as in both Beric and John/Aegon are actually fire wights and not living)
So what if they just wheel brans dumb ass down to kings landing and make him warg into Cersi and just walk her ass out the gates and let danys dragons torch her?
Technically, Bran could be the ultimate tactical weapon because he can see everything happening in the present. All decision making from Cersei, Euron, Commander of Golden Company could be relayed and plans adjusted to best counter them. It's unlikely he has any interest in participating in such a thing, but yeah he is quite the trump card. Arya is also a trump card if she chooses to be. It would not be a hard sell to suggest Arya could fairly easily assassinate Cersei with her skillset and ability to wear faces.
Cersei may not know Little Finger is dead.
Yes, he did this with Hodor a number of times.
RIP Hodor.
He is really missing a chance to just warg into The Mountain and save a ton of lives. But then, would he even be able to warg into whatever The Mountain is now?
Bran worged into Hodor on more than one occasion
Here arc was fine, but I'm still pissed off about the charm necklace scene. I wound up not being relevant, and for a show that doesn't have any irrelevant scenes, this is really annoying.
I disagree with that passage from the Forbes article and think it is missing the larger point of Martin's tale.
I do think there is more in the backstory of the Night King. But I also think, like many things, the showrunners boiled it down to its essence. That being, in a world where man is constantly dicking themselves over with political intrigue, houses vying for supremacy and the game of thrones the one thing that surmounts all of that is unadulterated, unemotional evil. Who's motivation is to bring the age of man to an end. To usher in night forever. All the petty squabbles of man's intrigues become less important to that.
I agree with you completely. GRRM has been vocal from the start that he doesn't want the main focus of the story to be a simple good (humanity) vs. evil (NK & death) but rather about the gray areas that emerge from human interaction and conflict. He managed to weave that good vs evil element into the story, but it was never meant to be the primary focus. So wrapping up the NK storyline before finishing the human side makes sense in his ideal plan.
Also from the books it's clear the White Walkers don't speak a language man can understand. How would their story get told without them being able to speak?
But, it's like they didn't even try!
Now I'm picturing the Night King sitting at a table with a translator and a stenographer working on his book.
Insomnia is a hell of a thing.
They obviously use symbolism to communicate messages. Beyond that, Kraster somehow negotiated with them to reach the agreement to sacrifice his male kids, so we know its doable. Finally, Bran could use his greensight to watch them in the past.
I don't think the passage from the article was critiquing the larger point of Martin's tale. I think it was pointing out that part of the essence of GoT that is so enjoyable for the audience is witnessing the long game play out between characters. Both the long term political maneuvering and the full circle character arcs were so painstakingly enjoyable. As the author points out, this is a show that has laid the ground work for tons of fan theories with elaborate plot lines and complex characters. For example there was so much mystique built up about the crypts of Winterfell but as of right now they haven't evolved past Jon's favorite place to brood. If this is how they end the NK's story arc then I think flat is the perfect description.
I think you're right that the show runners boiled it down to its essence and probably didn't have a choice. GRRM himself can't even finish the story. Be that as it may, the ending (thus far) is lacking the nuance and satisfaction that we were teased with IMO.
I also don't think the WW represent unadulterated, unemotional evil. They represent death. Sam explains this last episode. I think they are characterized as unadulterated, unemotional evil in their representation of death but it is death that surmounts all the human squabbling not evil.
Sam explains that death is like forgetting. And since Bran is the memory of man if he dies then man is forgotten/dies.
But when I think of death as an adversary I think of inevitability and an uncaring if something is dead or living because everyone eventually dies. But the Night King has malice and intent. He is driven not to wait for the inevitable but to force ever lasting Night onto man. That seems more like evil to me. But splitting hairs probably.
So, that's fine that the showrunners boiled it down to its essence, but there are a few crucial scenes/facts that lead to this disappointed:
Up until this point, every scene (if not every shot) was relevant to some scene in the future. This didn't hold true for the NK story line (or the red woman story line). At the end of the day, the NK character had no depth and no arc. If GRRM finishes the series, I fully expect the NK will be motivation by something other than being/bringing death to Westeros. Given the way the first 6 seasons were written, I would've expected the same from the show runners.
I've come to think that there are certain elements of the story that neither GRRM nor the producers of the show want to explicitly state, instead preferring to allow the readers/viewers to come up with their own interpretations.
This one was stated in an interview with the producers. The Night King is angry about his creation, so he blasphemes the religious symbols of the Children of the Forest. For instance, the spiral of stones around the weirwood at which he was created keeps showing up. He recreates it using dead people or animals to denigrate it. It shows that the White Walkers are intelligent and have some kind of culture, bastardized from the Children of the Forest and the Old Gods.
Thanks for this! I didn't know this, and it makes more sense now. BUT I'm still annoyed - this is something that could have and should have been explained to the viewer via characters, not an interview with the show runners. Literally add an additional three minutes of dialog to the scene where Bran is under the tree with the three eye raven and the children of the forest:
Bran: "Why is does he want to kill us?"
Three eyed Raven: "He was forced to live a lonely existence forever. He is angry about his creation, so he mocks the faith of those who made him, blaspheming the religious symbols of the Children of the Forest."
Bran: "Can we reason with him, or convince him otherwise?"
Thee eyed Raven: "No, he is too far gone, he no longer human"
THEN, instead of Bran just getting unintentionally marked by the Night King during a rogue greensight session, the show runners could have tweaked that scene so that Bran tries to reason with the NK in his vission, but instead gets attached/marked. All of a sudden, you have given this character a purpose.
To reinforce this idea throughout later seasons, you can show other northerners who worship the old gods seeing the symbols and getting offended.
BOOM YOU'RE WELCOME GRRM (and David Weiss and David Benioff)!
While I was hoping for a little more lore/explanation (via Bran vision while he was totally checked out of the battle) on the White Walkers, I'm not that disappointed that we're not getting more information. Maybe there will be some short explainer in the next episode.
While it was weird that the Night King could be taken down so easily, at least it was consistent with what happened to Benjen. Stab through the heart with an ice weapon was neutralized by dragonglass, keeping him alive(?) so killing the Night King required a stab through the heart where dragonglass had been to create him. A little contradictory to think that dragonglass can work both ways, but at least we got a hint of where that might have been going.
What I'm really curious about is what Melisandre was up to. She went back to Essos - why? Was it to plot something with the Golden Company? Contact the Fiery Hand? Go back to Asshai for some reason? I doubt they sent her across the Narrow Sea solely for the purpose of bringing her back dramatically for the battle. There's got to be a reason, and I'm wondering if that's the final "twist" that was promised.
I think you might be onto something there with Melisandre I've been racking my brain for what the catch could be and I had forgotten she went off the Essos during her hiatus from the screen so maybe thats where the catch is coming. I cant see the iron fleet abandoning Cersi at this point so it has to be something else or were gonna get a cersi kills all and reigns forever ending
Plot twist:
The Night King lives, and he and Bran are besties
And further down in his Twitter feed, what could have been.......*sigh*
Except that we did see that - it's the Tower of Joy (Ser Arthur Dayne) fight scene.
Nice fake-out by the NK actor.
yeah, he's trolling.
oh, and the scene - because it is still pretty awesome.
Learned today that Arya (Maisie who plays her) is actually a righty but needed to learn how to fight left handed and she has been at it so long she can now sword and knife fight with both hands.
Just a small clarification, Maisie Williams chose to fight left handed to stay true to the books. This was never forced on her by the show runners.
This Fact About Maisie Williams Makes Arya Stark's Fight Scenes Even More Impressive
Sooo disappointed with Gandalf, I expected him to arrive with the riders of Rohan at dawn but he never showed
He didn't even get to tell Harry that his dad was actually Darth Vader who trained under his friend, Neo.
That doesn't happen in the books, though
So are we definitely getting the Cleganebowl everyone has been begging for?
Wild prediction bound to fail: The Hound defeats the Mountain. Arya takes the Mountains face, hops on the Hound's back like Master Blaster, and the two walk up to Cersei and take her head off.
Will be interesting to see what they do with Cersei since she has the green eyes to satisfy the "brown eyes, green eyes, blue eyes" prophecy bestowed on Arya (though I've heard some of her kills have already had green eyes), but also we have the Valonqar prophecy that she thinks is talking about Tyrion, but would be much more fitting and dramatic if it were Jaime.
Or Arya wearing Jaime's face.
Definitely the best episode of the season so far. The first two were in the bottom 5 episodes of the whole series for me. So much damn pandering to the fans. But the battle was visually stunning. Some really fun moments. As an ardent supporter of the Night King I was disappointed he died, especially in such a lame way. But it makes sense from a plot perspective.
Definitely dumb more characters didn't die. Brianne should be dead. Sam should be dead. I thought they were going to kill off a tier one character like Tyrion/Jamie/Arya/Sansa. But the Jorah and Reek deaths were still solid.
At this point, I'm looking forward to the inevitable Jon vs Dani showdown.
Jon vs Dany showdown would require Jon to suddenly want the Iron Throne, which would require writing that is damn near impossible to not be seen as disastrous. It would be so out of character for Jon. To pull that shit in the last few episodes would be a complete and total slap to the face. Would be a shock twist for the sake of a shock twist and that would really dampen the series for me. The other option for it to happen would be for Dany to go full on Mad King, which would also be poor writing given everything we know and have seen thus far.
There is a lot of room and setup for conflict between them, but for it to become Jon vs. Dany in a "showdown" would be an absolute disaster from a storytelling and writing perspective, in my opinion.
Then again, none of us really know what they have up their sleeves with this Cersei arc, but that would be a lot to stuff into 3 episodes.
Are you sure? Dany has done some shitty things to get to the throne, she does any more shitty things like says to put to death a few thousand people who have surrendered or killing the people of the Citadel and Jon may feel like he doesn't have a choice.
She has done far more great/good things than the bad things. This story is full of complicated characters, all of which have made mistakes and poor choices, her mistakes have been far more focused on by viewers recently. To uniquely single her out for her mistakes is missing the point of all the characters being complicated and flawed.
Perhaps I came in too hot, but for me the Dany turned villain ending seems really contrived for shock value and doesn't really align with GRRM's pretty heavy female/lowborn/broken empowerment vibes. To me it would be an odd choice to really cling to the patriarchal nature of Jon's (who doesn't want the throne) claim to the throne. Especially after 8 seasons of Dany conquering, liberating, and breaking or attempting to break the wheel of the established norms everywhere she goes. She has delayed her quest for Westeros to fight the injustices of slavery, undead threat to humanity, etc. It just would feel cheap and contrived to turn her full on villain in the final 3 episodes.
I'm not saying they aren't flawed. But Jon likes to think of himself as a virtues man of Stark blood and morals. There is somethings he won't allow Dany to do is my point.
The way I see Jon is he doesnt feel the need to be king and I would be stunned if he would try and fight her for the throne. Dany helped him in a desperate time of need and I dont think he will forget it by stabbing her in the back on that he knows how much the throne means to her. Plus I'd argue he cares for her too much to do that as well.
Just from the context of their current characters, I agree. He wouldn't backstab her. I think that she is going to do something crazy though in these next three episodes though. Something that might force him to intervene.
She's done some things that can be viewed as trending that way. There's an opening plot-wise, for sure.
She's done one thing that really could be viewed as similar, and dozens of other very positive and incredible things. There's a small opening, but they'd be still be making a huge leap.
It depends if you believe that the ends justify the means. She slaughtered the free people of multiple cities in the process of liberating their slaves. Were all of them slaveowners? How many innocents did she sacrifice on the process? Was that justice?
She is very quick to kill in order to advance her own interests. Regardless of whether or not those interests are justified, it's a questionable character trait.
Could she slide closer towards madness from that starting point? Is not likely, but not totally farfetched.
They already hinted at that though. When mentioned to him that he is the rightful heir of the throne you would have expected him to brush it aside and claim he doesnt want it. He didn't do that though. He just stared. They left it open for him to want the throne. If anything because maybe he thinks Dany won't be a good ruler.
Additionally, I think the show has already taken that dive towards disastrous writing for a full season now lol. I wouldn't put it past them to do something wacky. But mainly by "showdown" I'm thinking more like a big betrayal or something. Not so much a one on one, winner take all fight.
Maybe cause he just learned he's banging his aunt.
Frantically contemplating if she is hot enough to overcome the incest.
I don't see why people think the writing has gotten worse? I think its gotten more predictable but your talking about wrapping up an 8 year old series you don't have much room to wiggle around with crazy plot twists because you've laid the story line out for the past 8 years.
I think it got worse by necessity. The best seasons of the show were focused on character development and multiple small scale plots. They were able to take their time with everything.
Then as the show winds down they have to convert from being character driven to being plot driven. Everything speeds up. The writers need to get to point Z in X number of episodes. Suddenly, characters are traveling the distance of Westeros in a single episode. That kind of journey used to take half a season and would be filled with adventure.
I certainly agree as well that it has become predictable. The writers really pander to the fans too much imo. These first two episodes were like 95% pandering. The only real moment that furthered the plot and set up potential future conflict was the reveal of Jon's heritage. Everything else was filler. Filler is fine, but it can't dominate the episode.
That being said, the writers have a real opportunity to make these last 3 episodes incredible. No one knows what is going to happen. The scale of conflict has drastically decreased now that the Night King is dead and the looming doom of the White Walkers no longer exists. The Iron Throne is once again worth vying and dying for. People will betray each other as they lust for power. These last 3 episodes can be a return to the earlier seasons and I can't wait to see what happens.
Harry Potter did the same thing. As the novels progressed the actual day to day school activities became less and less prevalent in order to make room for the plot
I think the 1st two episodes set it up. There was definitely conflict between Sansa and Danny. Then there was theJon Arya reunion where she re,kids him not to forget who his family is. If they wanted to set up conflict they could have a scene similar to the Tarleys not bending the knee with Sansa and maybe Arya.p and Jon having to decide what to do.
was anyone else annoyed by how slow Melisandre was walking right before setting the trench on fire?
She's like 1000 years old. That cold weather is hell on her arthritis.
Apparently its hard to walk when your tits hang down below your knees.
That scene still haunts my dreams
I've seen maybe three episodes from one of the middle seasons. So, ima tell you what happens because I am an expert.
You get no solid answers out of the show
Jaime turns his back on Cersei. He doesn't help take the throne from her. He doesn't do much of anything. In return, he's allowed to hang around.
Dany ends up on the throne. She and Jon don't get together. Let's face it, Jon is still hung up on Ygritte. She doesn't dye her hair. He can't bring himself to pursue the throne, pursue Dany, or be King in the north.
But good news! Cersei escaped. So, Jon is tasked with tracking her. He wanders for years likely doing this.
Tyrion is tasked with the documentation of what all went on. A sort of royal records keeper. He gets some info from Bran, but then Bran goes off the deep end and wheels off into the sunset to be the three eyed raven in the woods. He probably goes off to hang with the people who created the night king. So, Tyrion is now the keeper of recent history. And he gets drunk.
The stark kids go all Lion, the Witch, and the wardrobe on Winterfell. Claiming they will rule together. But as I said, Bran wanders off. Arya decides to kill more people. She disappears. Sansa is a little wonky and struggles with ruling. Can't quite figure out what to do with no conflict to distract everyone.
Dany decides to marry Jaime in an effort to consolidate some houses, and appease people. As the last episode fades out, she's on the throne and says some creepy ass line that the Mad King had said earlier.
Oh, and Brienne and Jaime have an awkward moment. Tormund watches. Tormund and Brienne then have an awkward moment. They ride off together to help Jon because Brienne wants a lord worth serving. But, they don't imply that they're going to shack up.
Honestly I thought the only thing that could be wonky was someone's knee. But overall this is amazing and I hope all of this come s true. Also sounds like one of those "I had a bot write an episode of diners, drive-ins, and dives" type things
Adding to this: Dany goes mad, as Targaryens are wont to do, and slaughters everyone she believes is a threat to the throne. Bronn survives because he has no claim and winds up bedding and marrying Dany. He eventually grows tired of her madness, kills her and assumes the throne, finally getting, not just his castle, but a kingdom.
The final scene is a befuddled Sam, who has become grand maester, explaining to King Bronn that every whore in the kingdom has a newly discovered, deathly STD and he can't find the link. Bronn gives Sam a forced puzzled look, coughs...(And Scene)
I know Dany is Jon's Aunt but aren't they related in another way since her parents were brother and sister?
Whoever asnwers this question correctly has some explaining to do.
I don't believe so because the mad king and his sister were at the same level in family relationships. They are only Jons grandparents and they are only Danys parents. There is no cousin relationship or brother/sister relationship between Dany and Jon because of this. There is only the aunt nephew relationship. Keeping marriage between brothers and sisters keeps it simple.
Now if Dany and Jon have kids, there may be some additional relationships added as Dany and Jon are not on the same immediate family level (i.e. brother and sister). The kids would be cousins and sons/daughters of Jon. They would be some sort of extended family cousin relationship (1st/2nd cousins, once/twice removed kind of thing) and the sons/daughters of Dany.
Aren't they Danys parents and Aunt and Uncle?
If your father's sister is your aunt, but also is your mother, does that make your siblings your cousins?
edited for clarity
Yeah that is the question. I answered based on drawing the short lineage of the family. I didn't think of danys parents as aunt and uncle as well because it just doesn't make sense that they are an aunt/uncle.
Just go to Morgantown and ask?
Morgantown be like:
via GIPHY
There is another way they are related, but it would necessarily be further than aunt/nephew. Because Rhaella and Mad King Aerys II were brother and sister, Daenerys and Rhaegar could be considered cousins (in addition to siblings), which would make Jon and Dany first cousins, once removed.
https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Targaryen
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin
Dany needs #'s. Will Daario return with the 2nd Sons?
Or will the Golden Company flip on Cersei?
Unless the Scorpions are plentiful (or plot drivenly accurate) two dragons should be more than enough to roast any number of regular troops. Additionally, while they likely wouldn't do this on the show, she could also just run a series of short, night time raids with her dragons and chip away chunks from their armies/ranks over time. There really wouldn't be much of answer for this plan other than praying you can shoot one in the dark.
The Daario thing is certainly a fun thought. I'm not sure how viable that is as an option the way they left things. Perhaps we will get some genius-esque plan where Dany/Tyrion/Varys foresaw the Golden Company move and had Daario/2nd sons infiltrate their ranks or follow behind them. Though I'm not sure they will bring that plotline back at all, it's hard to know when there could be non-story related factors like being able to get actors back on set, etc.
Another option I've been thinking about recently is a possible intervention by the Iron Bank. It's been stated that they are neutral, and pick their war loans based on who will likely win. The Lannister's have run up quite a hefty line of credit from them and with the war on the dead won and Dany still having her dragons, they may want to call Cersei's note. That would be quite a twist to see what that would look like if they turned on Cersei.
Well, there is that really big cone of fire that points right back to the dragon's mouth. Shouldn't be that hard to determine the dragon's location when he's (or she's? do we know the dragons' genders?) breathing fire.
you can tell where the dragon shot fire from pretty easily, but by the time you aim and fire a ballista, it's probably moved.
True. Maybe their ballista operators just need to understand the concept of "leading a target".
The reason I said "plot drivenly accurate" is exactly this. A dragon is a fast moving aerial target. It would be ridiculous to assume a remotely high hit rate on a fast moving target at varying distances, no matter how good you are at "leading a target." Anyone operating the scorpion would also need to be very familiar with how fast, and how far they can expect the ballista arrow to go. When does it start losing velocity rapidly, when does it start to dip. We're talking about needing to be both very, very good at leading a target and also very, very familiar with the physics of the weapon.
My point being that I highly doubt the viability, in realistic terms, of ever hitting one of the dragons with these ballistas. That doesn't mean it won't happen in a tv show, where they might want to hit one for plot purposes.
Bronn already hit Drogon with the first scorpion. Granted, Drogon was coming at him head-on so it was a straight shot. Then too, Bronn is a pretty amazing marksman from what we've seen, so your typical Lannister soldier is not likely going to have the same success, even with an "easy" shot.
What would be more likely? That they turn on the Lannisters or throw in more heavily with them?
I've read somewhere STTEO "If you borrow $1,000, the bank owns you. If you borrow $10,000,000, you own the bank.", meaning that people who owe large amounts to a bank can influence the bank's actions, because of the bank's risk of the borrower defaulting on such a large sum. They may be too heavily invested with the Lannisters to be able to handle a scenario where the Lannisters lose and therefore aren't able to pay them back.
I do wonder though that if the find out the secret that the gold mine beneath Castaly Rock has run dry and the Lannisters have no way of paying them back. I think this was revealed by Tywin in one of the episodes before Tyrian shot him with the cross bow, which is why they were leaning so heavily on the alliance with House Tyrell, the second most wealthy family in Westeros.
Cersei completely paid off the Iron Throne / Lannister / Baratheon debt toward the end of season 7. She basically raided Highgarden & The Reach for all their riches to do so. That sets up the Iron Bank being willing to bankroll her hiring the Golden Company. The Iron Banker even points her toward the Golden Company as an effective and reliable mercenary army.
However I think it was pretty clear that when the Iron Banker complimented her on being so much more effective than her father, was actually being hugely sarcastic because by paying back everything in one lump sum, Cersei lifted her hold on the Iron Bank and it's further resources. Just like you said, by being 10,000,000 in debt, she had the bank under her thumb, not the other way around. The Iron Bank was going to make sure she survived and succeeded so she could pay them back.
By zeroing the debt, sure she makes it "easy" for the Iron Bank to issue her a fresh loan to hire the Golden Company. (or maybe she just takes their recommendation on who to hire, I don't quite remember the all details of that conversation) But it also makes it easy for the Iron Bank to back another faction that they trust more to be a long-term profit center. Cersei has shown herself to be capricious, vindictive and kinda ignorant of long-term consequences - not a great personality traits for a reliable long term business partner. If she was actually smart, she'd set up a payment plan with the Bank (and stick with it), and keep the bank on the hook for additional resources as needed.
Great points. I mistakenly thought the Lannister's lost most of the Highgarden gold during the dragon attack.
Before Dany roasts a good chunk of the Lannister army with the dragons, there was kind of a throwaway line from Randyll Tarly to Jaime Lannister where he was reporting 'the gold has all made it safely inside the walls of Kings Landing'
Who owns the debt in this situation? Cersei? The Lannister family? The city of Kings landing? Westeros?
The Crown (the 7 kingdoms / the iron throne)
When Tyrion takes over as Master of Coin there's a conversation where hes going through the books lamenting the poor fiscal management of Littlefinger and crazy spending habits of King Robert. He mentions a couple of big debts on the books - several million owed to the Lannister family and a 10 million owed to the Iron Bank. And he says something about the Iron Bank always collecting, I think it's the first mention in the TV show of the Iron Bank's fearsome reputation for collecting on debts.
Also, I think it's implied or mentioned at some point that part of what Tywin Lannister had loaned to the Crown was borrowed from the Iron Bank to keep up the appearance that House Lannister was still very rich, when in reality their mines were tapped out and their cash reserves were running low. So Cersei as the Crown and the head of house Lannister would be responsible for both debts.
Leg for calling this one
Someone on Reddit said that in WWII, boats targeting aircraft only hit their target 4% of the time. I have no idea if this stat is accurate, but I think we can all agree that elevation is a significant advantage, especially in a pre-technology time period like GoT.
I alluded to this earlier. Seems like a good possibility with the way things left off with Daario and Dany. Certainly his story isn't over. Maybe the 2nd Sons and Yara ride in ala the Nights of the Vale did during the Battle of the Bastards.
Deus ex machina
yara ex machina
Also where are the Dornish and the riverlanders? Anyone left from the stormlands after Blackwater Bay? Funny how literally every other house (except the smooth brained Iron Islanders) and a shit ton of people from Essos have been against the Lannister's yet theyve still controlled the throne since season 1
The Dornish are probably just keeping to themselves, pretty normal for them. No doubt a lot of internal politics and in-fighting over who takes over after the Martells got wiped out. Slight chance of some kind of revenge plot going on against Cersei & House Lannister.
Stormlands, Reach and Riverlands are very depleted militarily and anyone remaining is either tacitly loyal to the Crown & Cersei or just keeping their heads down trying to sort out succession for the vacant lordships in those areas (e.g. Tullys deposed, then Freys wiped out, Tyrells deposed/wiped out and then Tarlys wiped out)
Part of me is starting to believe that the Night King is not actually dead.
Prophecy: "No-one can kill the Night King". No-one (Arya) did kill the Night King. Or maybe Jon somehow already having been dead once before may be an advantage ? Who knows with this show.
They'll probably have to go burn the original God's wood where he was originally was created.
Lord Gendry! Now good job D and D got me feeling good. Now crush it the best way you can.
I knew I had faith in you to tear me apart at the threads. Thanks D and D.
Not loving the direction they are going in. I am withholding judgement until the end. I will say it's setting up for episode 5 to be pretty nuts, but hopefully not shocking for shock value, which I think much of this episode was.
Edit: remember me talking about plot-driven accuracy? First three dead on hits from around a corner? The next 60 miss?
2nd edit: this is the first time I can remember genuinely not feeling great about the show after an episode. I've been upset, shocked, horrified, thrilled, and stoked, but all in the right ways. The Red Wedding was horrifying to watch, but it made sense and the end result was me saying, "holy shit, this show is incredible." This episode I felt sad about the state of the show. Like I said, I will fight to withhold judgement until the end, but this is the worst feeling I've had after an episode. For example, Missandei's last words being a call to extreme violence, as a person who is non-violent, just strikes me in all the wrong ways. I'm sure some didn't feel this way, and my opinion is ultimately meaningless, but that's my piece.
Just an FYI in case you or anyone else is curious, apparently the end leaked online today. There were posts on reddit that had details of tonight's episode and the final two. I didn't read the final 2 but the spoilers for episode 4 were dead on so it looks like its legit. Scanning the general reaction, its been a mix of surprise and pissed
Yeah, I heard about that.
Could you provide a link? Just scanned down through r/gameofthrones, and everything is SPOILER-tagged, so I can't find the post you're talking about.
To clarify, I don't want to read it, but my wife (the one who fast-forwarded through to the end of S8E3) is the type who likes to know stuff beforehand, so I figure I'd send her the link.
If you want to read the final 3 episode leaks head to /r/freefolk Beware though, there are no spoiler tags on /r/freefolk and there is open discussion in multiple threads about what the leaks contained. So stay away if you don't want to risk all being revealed.
I now wish I'd never asked. Ugh.
Well, Missandei may herself be non-violent but she's never had any qualms or remorse for Dany killing shitloads of people, or Grey Worm for that matter. I don't see how this is any different. She knows she's going to die and she knows Dany's heart, so with her last words she lets her know that she is still with her Queen. All true to character.
I agree with this. She knows shits about to get nasty so she's telling Dany that she better unleash fire and fury.
Was the AssPocket household the only one yelling for her to grab Cersei when she took her by the arm and jump off the wall? Missandei had to know she was going to die at that point. I would have made my death mean something if at all possible. I know that would have thrown a wrench in the plot for the rest of the show, but damn.
I wanted to see her drop down, scissor her legs through Cersei's, and trip her off the wall, but maybe that's because I had just finished watching The Karate Kid with my daughters.
Mrs. JASONinARLINGTON was screaming the same.
I keep seeing this suggestion, but it just doesn't make any sense. If she had killed Cersei, the archers and scorpions would have unloaded on Dany, Tyrion, and the rest of their squad at the gate.
This is exactly what I was thinking. Plus I think the Mountain would catch her before she falls.
Only, he was standing way too far back to grab them if she moved in an instant. He's known for strength, not speed after all.
On its face, your argument makes perfect sense. Sure, she would have likely killed her queen and her man, and she probably didn't think beyond that. But in the long term, the war would have been essentially over. No one fighting for Cersei has the influence to keep and maintain power.
I agree. The drama feels manufactured, not organic.
I too take issue with how they killed the Dragon. Here's what they should've done:
This way they avoid the student arya vs sansa storyline from season 7, AND they make a somewhat more believable way of killing the dragon.
Well that's going to take awhile to process the near future implications of that episode.
Cersei has to be the most hated villain of ever.
Poor Grey Worm. That was a dirty move. At first I wanted Arya to rip Cersei's throat out but I hope he gets a shot to take her down.
I feel like Dany has been pushed over the edge of crazy. The tension between Dany and Sansa/Arya isn't going to just end. So I don't see this ending well for Jon. Someone close to him is gone, if not he himself.
On 2nd thought, Grey Worm and The Hound will tag team The Mountain.
Oh we burning this MFer to the ground now
Dozens of scorpions > one dragon.
The only chance at victory is Arya/Jaime killing Cersei.
Emilia Clarke said that episode 5 was gonna be "bigger" than the Winterfell Battle...I'm inclined to believe her after that. Whew!
Weird that misande would say something to suggest violence in that moment dunno where we are heading now but it's not looking good
We are so on the same page with the Missandei thing. I mentioned it above but it hit me in all the wrong ways. Seemed like a cheap plot device to anger Dany, and a complete betrayal of her character.
More I stew on it maybe it's all part of cersis plan really maybe she told her to say that as an attempt to drive her mad but then again I don't think that she would say it if cersi had told her too. The whole thing was definitely an attempt to enrage dany and hope she did something stupid like fly at her then. Got a feeling someone's gonna have to do one hell of a job to curve her anger or we're about to get the mad queen ending I feared the directors might pick just for shock value
We share the same fear. It would be disappointing on so many levels. I understand it's difficult to end something like this, but it feels like the cheapest path to maximum shock value.
Why easy? Parents were brother and sister, and dad was nuts, her brother practically molested her and then sold her off, she was raped by her husband, then lost that husband and baby, has seen friends die, seen people who loved her die, has lost two dragons which have a connection like children to her. This has all the recipe of driving anyone mad.
which is why she won't go all loco.. that is what everyone is expecting so B&W will subvert our expectations and she'll pledge allegiance to her nephew.
Dany being a "mad queen" wouldn't be just for shock value though. If you really think back, the seeds for it have been there all along and its been growing the closer she gets to the Iron Throne. She's always had violent impulses but its been her advisors around her that's kept her in check, but as we've seen, she's losing them (to death) and the ones that she has that are still alive she's lost trust in.
Maybe Dany will be so angry she'll actually apply some well-reasoned and effective aerial tactics when flying Drogon into battle. She's lost 2 dragons because she tends just derp along in a straight line assuming nobody has any weapons powerful enough to hurt her dragons from the ground.
Well she did fly around Essos conquering each city without any of the masters apparently knowing what a ballista is.
Jamie is a night slayer too.
Kind of annoyed by the whole Dany vs John drama. She's being kind of a bitch about it but even so why is everyone so sure Jon would be a better ruler? He'd literally be Ned Stark 2.0. He'd never able to mask his emotions to outwit his enemies. Dany at least is smart enough to run a kingdom while keeping the crown.
And how about Varys pretending to serve the realm, lmao you serious chief? Key piece in starting the Stark vs Lannister war that killed tens of thousands, let Renly run off and raise and army, then afterwards helped a random new conquerer who killed thousands more. Nice job buddy
Not sure about Dany being able to run a kingdom. She's a conqueror not a ruler. Look at the mess in Meereen. Maybe in the books she was better at it.
I agree with Jon not being clever enough though. As Tyrion suggests the best would be they rule together, though that definitely isn't going to happen.
Agree on Varys. Dude is a rat jumping from ship to ship.
The part of this that annoyed me the most was the Jon as the natural leader of men bit. Let's quickly review the great leader's track record.
Was totally getting wiped out at the BoftheB when he was rescued by his SISTER SANSA.
Was about to get wiped out getting a wight when he was rescued by his AUNT DANY.
Had managed to completely lose the BofWinterfell when he was rescued by his SISTER ARYA.
Yeah, who wouldn't want to follow a leader of men with that track record?
Did enjoy Cercei's smirking though knowing that her plan to keep the gates open would let in the world's greatest unstoppable assassin. Was fantasizing about Arya killing Qyburn, assuming his identity, strolling in to see Cercei, strolling out, then when Cercei doesn't show they go in to check on her and find Qyburn and Cercei's heads are side by side on pikes. Not a spoiler, just my wish for how Cercei comes to an end.
Not arguing your points, but to be fair, he distracted Viserion so that Arya could get to the NK.
I'm not sold on that theory. I believe it's possible, but not nearly enough to say that it's true beyond reasonable doubt.
Firstly, why in hell would he be actively trying to engage a dragon wight by himself?
Second, why would he be yelling "GOOOOOOOOOOOO" at said dragon?
Because it's super unclear that he even said go. The CC just said "Jon screaming" and the timing doesn't line up. I rewatched this scene several times after I read about that theory. It's definitely on the table, but it is by no means clear.
No indistibutable evidence, play stands as called. Put 2 episodes back on the clock, replay 4th down.
"It was an assist."
-Aegon Jon Coale Snow Targaryen
I think you make a great point - it's not just your CEO it's who they bring with them. Jon has a bunch of talented people willing to come to his aid. Dany has a dwindling army / advisory team from Essos and.. Jon.
Plus the main instigators trying to angle Jon into power instead of Dany think they'll be able to influence him into pursuing their goals.
You're missing the point of Jon's leadership though. All of those battles he was CLEARLY the underdog and yet he still willingly ran head first into certain death and was able to command the loyalty of the men around him to do the same. He may have needed saving but no way people follow him into those battles if he wasn't a natural leader of men.
Idk to me that shows poor judgement despite him being able to win over his men.
I disagree. He took over and won the wildling battle at castle black. he had a decent battle plan against Ramsey. he just ignored Sansa's advice not to get baited into a mistake (but he saw his brother about to get killed and acted on emotion) and like I said earlier, Sansa withheld some pretty damned valuable information that would have been helpful. he lead an expedition beyond the wall to bring as many freefolk south as possible. Yes, he made some mistakes, some critical but all in all he is a good leader. Maybe he needs to a goo G staff to help him formulate a plan.
There are thousands of leaders throughout history who have a devout following despite poor results/policy. If nothing else, Jon is authentic and honest, has come back from the dead, and has managed to stay alive as a soldier in multiple battles. I think that earns him a legendary/favorable status among his supporters.
Literally this. Tormund makes it a point to mention that Jon was murdered and came back to life to lead them. He put everything on the line to save the Freefolk, died for it, and came back.
I don't quite understand any questioning about why people choose to follow Jon. It has never and will never be about any sort of tactical decision. It never has been. People follow him because they trust him. He keeps being involved in all of these huge moments and somehow he is still alive and kicking.
My speculation:
I don't think Jaime is going back to join Cersei. I think with the news he realized that no one can stop her except for him because he can get close to her. He has to push Briene away and also needs to keep the facade of being loyal to Cersei. But in the moment he will hesitate and die, which will somehow intersect with Arya who then takes his face and slays Cersei who thinks she sees Ghost Jaime. Arya dies in the process though.
Arya already had her big moment with the Night King, so I doubt she ends up being the one that kills Cersei.
But given the fact that she's the sneakiest person on the planet I don't know why there is a need for a war when Arya could potentially slip past everyone and kill Cersei alone.
I do agree with what you said about Jaime though. Either he hesitates and dies or maybe he and Cersei die together.
They also said No One could kill the Night King. So...
Yeah, the vibe I got was that Jaime was leaving to help put a stop to Cersei, not to join back up with her. If he was going back to help her it would make the entire arc of his character one of the biggest wastes of time in any form of media. It felt more like his realization of all the awful things he did/would have done for her and how hateful they both are. But now his hate is reserved for her. I think he left Brienne like that because otherwise he knows she would have come with him, and I think he expects this to be a one way trip.
As for Arya doing the deed, I said to my wife last night I would be dissapointed if they had her off both the Night King and Cersei.
I could see Jaime hesitating but then somehow Tyrion being involved in killing her, in either case I can't see Jaime surviving.
yep, he is definitely just saying that to make sure Brienne doesn't follow him. He knows Cersei would kill her just to spite him if she saw any kind of emotion from Jaime towards Brienne.
Euron greyjoy in the preview for next week seem to be very surprised by what he saw when he looked up in the sky. I can only think of three possibilities:
(1) He saw two dragons meaning second dragon didn't die (2) They found a way to armor drogon or (3) Brann has figured how to warg in and control dead creatures like the Knight King did. Any other ideas ?
I'm officially giving up on Bran doing anything useful with his powers.
Only thing that makes sense is armor on the dragon cause bran is useless and I dont know where he even went to. Like sansa is still getting news via ravens when Bran is the all seeing all knowing entity. if thats the end of his story I'll be slightly pissed.
Bran's gonna get em with the old Trojan
HorseRabbit trick.https://youtu.be/tS_JBDRk8o0?t=217
But Bran isn't all seeing and all knowing. He has been pretty clear about that.
For starters, he can't see into the future. As for current events, there has never been an indication that he knows what's going on immediately. Even with past events, while he can see everything, he has to look at the event specifically, and while he can see every event from the past, he doesn't just automatically know all of it.
Take Jons parentage. He did not know it until Sam specifically asked him to look at. His line to tyrion about how he "mostly lives in the past" is pretty telling.
He may still have powers that come to bear before the end here, but knowing the future was never one of them.
I could see any of those happening because there is a reason why Euron's reaction was what it was in the preview.
I may be reaching but this is what i think....
In season 4 episode 2, Tyrion and Jorah are in Valyria and see Drogon flying around...
Many think Drogon is actually a female (people said the dragons can be gender fluid) and laid eggs during that time. If you remember, Drogon was AWOL almost during that whole season while Dany was in Essos.
I think what Euron see's is the new dragons born and fully grown up following Drogon inserting fear into Euron's eyes. Maybe they are armored too.... Kind of a stretch but would be badass, you just never know.
Side guess: Jamie reaches Cersei but it is actually Arya wearing his face and proceeds to kill her, finishing off her mission to kill people of brown eyes, blue eyes, and green eyes.... Cersei being the green eyes.
One thought is that the more I think over last nights episode the more I think somehow the other dragon isnt dead. Why would they give us the whole bit of Euron promising her the dragons dead? I think theyre trying to get us to forget about it and Bran as well kind of like how Arya went MIA for a bit in the battle for winterfell hoping we wont see that coming.
So many disappointing things about this episode just from a purely logistical point of view.
Euron's fleet has forward facing Scorpions and Dany is on a fast, highly maneuverable aircraft, so of course she turns around and flies away without some type of counter attack.
Surely Dany could have flown Drogon around, come in low, and torched Euron's fleet from behind. What are they going to do, magically turn the boats around. Even if they could turn the scorpions around 180°, they couldn't shoot through their own masts or the back of their own ships. Or Dany could just fly up high and come in at greater than a 60° angle, because the Scorpions clearly cannot shoot straight up with how they are built.
And where did all of Dany's fleet of survivors wash up? How did they get from that small little beach back to wherever they re-grouped for the last show-down? Did they walk to their land forces? Did Euron's fleet let a boat or two swing by and pick them up? Why would Eurons fleet just let them swim away and then walk to their land forces. The survivors on the beach were weakened, exhausted, and unarmed. A few landing parties could have just wiped them out.
And lastly, you're at war. Cersei could have unloaded the archers and Scorpions on the wall at Dany's little group that showed up to "talk". End it right there. But no, instead let's just piss off the Dragon Queen that still has an army and her biggest dragon and a family history of mental illness. Why end it when we can all but ensure that a whole lot of us die violent, gruesome deaths? Is Cersei pulling a Littlefinger and trying to burn it all to the ground (dragon + wildfire) so she can rule over the ashes?
It's like the writers want the characters to try to win a soap opera instead of a war. It's been said before, but bears repeating. D & D are just checking off boxes to get us from point A to point B but are not very good at subtlety or making it intricate or intriguing along the way or getting there without a lot of temporary stupidity and whole lot of plot armor.
This episode was all about how to make Dany go "mad" so people will be okay with her eventual heel turn and subsequent death. I can just imagine them saying that someone(s) had to die because just about everyone survived the Battle of Winterfell and we need to drive Dany mad so let's go kill off Missandei and Rhaegal.
I used to love this show, but each episode comes with more and more disappointment. Perhaps it was unrealistic to expect D & D to stick the landing in such a quick time frame when it is clear that Martin has spent years struggling to wrap it all up in a satisfying manner.
Agree with most of this. I know A LOT of resources/money went in to making these last 6 episodes but seems they could have done better with more explanation of movements and development or where everyone is and how.
As far as where they washed up, wasn't it at Dragonstone? I assume that they didn't leave the castle unguarded so there are probably soldiers there that could help defend from landing parties. Not sure where any extra ships came from though. Seems the notion of a blockade around King's Landing could have been enforced by Euron around Dragonstone. Especially since Dany and Drogon could figure out how to outflank a weapon that only faces in one direction (agree on the asinine notion of this).
- If Dany has proven anything, it's that she's terrible at utilizing dragons in a battle. Things like using your speed to flank are like tactics 101, you'd think Jorah or Barristan would have taught some of those concepts to her. Diving from a steep angle is a little more advanced, as there's no real ground warfare equivalent, but you'd think someone flying dragons for years would figure that out after a while.
- They washed up on the shores of Dragonstone, which apparently Cersei didn't bother capturing while 99% of Dany's army was up north. But ya, Euron seemed happy enough to wreck shit and run, not finish the job.
- It seemed like Dany's group was standing back out of archery range (but not scorpion range).
- Agree D&D have no clue how to structure the story and are basically jumping from one gotcha! moment to the next, physics and logic be damned.
I really don't understand all the angst from so many on social media and here over this season. People acting like it's a sudden change in D's behavior, no we have seen small signs of it, plus many forget a single show can span months in Westeros time. Just last nights episode probably was 2 months of time there.
Yeah people tend to forget how long that journey down the Kings road takes. Some full episodes were just people traveling, they went like half way down, crossed a sea, came back, then went all the way to king's landing...that's quite a bit of time.
I think it's more of the way she's acting towards the Jon situation and his "sisters" that has people hating on her. Nobody cares if she goes mad on Cersei and crew.
Edit: and the way she begged Jon to keep the secret. That even made me feel awkward.
So when they panned into Dany's face at the end, her eyes were bright green. So will Arya be taking her or Cersei down? I don't think it will be both.
I thought her eyes were supposed to be blue buts it's hard to make out.
I know at least in the books her eyes are supposed to be like purple. I believe they were going to do that for the show but Emilia Clarke didn't like wearing the contacts
Anyone else notice in the background Podrick just collecting girls to take with him to the bedroom?
That's all I could focus on. Need to figure out his secret 🤔
Not sure if that's tongue in cheek or not, but if you don't know his secret, you haven't been paying attention to the show.
Yeah, he's a sex god. But I'm trying to figure out how to relate his powers to real life situations.
Easy. In the real world: Speak softly and carry a big stick
via GIPHY
In the same vein of Nick Foles, you could call ol Pod BDP
Product placement is getting out of control.
One of the things that really jumped out at me (as a physicist) was the handling of the ballistas. There's a physical trade space between reload speed and initial velocity, mainly that if you're going to be able to easily and quickly reload the ballista (pull back the "string"), then it's not going to have a lot of energy (range, velocity) in it. I know, it's a TV show, but making a VERY long range ballista that can be reloaded that quickly? C'mon, that's just sloppy. The rate of fire those things were unloading at the fleet was ridiculous, and that's even allowing for all of the 20-ish boats to fire, not just the five or so in the front of the fleet.
Totally sloppy, just stuck out like a sore thumb... didn't quite ruin the the episode for me, but it was close.
I have no problem with Euron surprising them with seaborne Scorpions and taking out a dragon, but to 1) have a fleet ambush an aerial foe instead of the other way around and 2) have the scorpions suddenly so accurate and powerful they defy basic physics (with no hint of magical enhancements) is just ridiculous.
It's like they didn't want to bother with a quick air-sea battle that had Dany spotting Euron's fleet and swooping in to torch them only to be surprised by ship-mounted scorpions that end up taking out one of the dragons.
Or thought it would be cooler to just totally surprise the audience with Raeghal getting wrecked completely out of the blue.
And how he gets shot in the belly then somehow a perpendicular shot comes in at his neck (and come from the side). Not believable at all
I mean, they were shooting at a dragon...
With as many times as they showed the scorpions lining up shots to aim AT the dragon, I find it hard to believe that anybody aimed far enough and high enough to account for distance (time of travel) and gravity to pull them down. It's not like the dragons were flying low.
When that first spear hit I was thinking "Are you kidding me?"
Granted, I thought a lot of the "Hey we just lost half our people, let's go charge at a castle with fortifications, and no information on what their capabilities are." was stupid, too. I know she's going crazy, but I thought she was smarter than that. Jon is as bad as Jamie Lannister. He knows it's stupid but goes along with his queen. I wouldn't follow him...
Not one thing about the scorpions makes any realistic sense.
Exactly, we were yelling to, at least, get Drogon out of range.
Only way I can explain it is they were out of bow shot and only Tyrion was in the line of Fire when he walked forward
As to the scorpions/ballistas: why not just fly the dragon up high as hell well out of range and then do a dive attack from straight above? There is no way those things could be aimed anywhere near vertical. There are so many ways to attack a basic fixed weapon like that and it annoyed the shit out of me last night. Also as others have said there is no way in hell you get a first round hit on a moving target at unknown range and wind speed. BS. I hope Euron gets torched.
It's not even worth discussing at this point. They make no sense. We can discuss how stupid the tactics are, the physics of the ballistas, the fact that they nailed Rhaegal three straight times from around the corner and then missed the next 60 with more time to aim (despite the fact that there is NO point where Dany wouldn't have seen the ships first from way up in the sky with the ultimate vantage point). She could have flown around behind them and there is no way they could turn around in time, She could nosedive them as you said, their reloading speed and distance doesn't make sense, etc.
But hey, they got their cheap "oh shit" moment out of it. So congratulations to the showrunners, I guess? Poor Rhaegal survived the BofWinterfell just so they could have a shock moment 10 minutes into the next episode.
Agreed. It would have played so much better if they had lured Dany in with the scorpions hidden behind exaggerated head sails only to see ballista bolts rip through them as she closed downing Rhaegal and wounding Drogon while he barely got his ass out of there.
Yep, or another way that makes some sense: Have the first three be shot at Drogon/Dany and she notices and avoids them, then have the next 60 that are fired hit an injured Rhaegal who is unable to evade them as swiftly as Drogon. That actually makes sense given the circumstances. That doesn't require superhuman accuracy to hit an injured dragon a few times with a substantial volley of shots.
In this scenario we are still complaining about the physics, but at least we aren't also discussing the plot accuracy and absurdity of around the corner sniper accuracy.
If only it was 10 minutes into the episode instead of 40+ after a bunch of largely meaningless nonsense with a touch of "let's spend a little more time making Dany seem irrationally crazy."
If I were putting together a battle strategy to take down Cersei and Euron and I had a person on my side (Bran) who could see in real time what the enemy is doing I might think to ask him where Euron is and what Cersei has done to prepare for the coming battle.
The fact that Tyrion is still suggesting they reason with Cersei is a joke. The fact that Cersei didn't kill them all when she had a chance is a joke.
Does anyone know where the hell bran was even at after the party he was straight AWOL again
well he was in the godswood with jon, arya and sansa. I suspect he stayed in Winterfell.
Forgot about that but still I'm curious why he would be so out of the picture when he could be a vital piece.
I can't help but feel like George R.R. Martin had some sort of idea of where he wanted to go with Bran/ would have made him make more sense. But it kinda seems like the show writers don't know what to do with him. He is a huge plot hole though for sure. Too powerful and unused at this point.
Agree with Cersei not killing them when that close. Shouldn't have been shot that way all.
Tyrion attempting to save the city from being burned is in character though. However the dialogue of them just going and demanding she surrender was incredibly dumb. Tyrion has been missing a beat but he's not so stupid that he thinks Cersei is going to just give up because they ask her to.
Yeah, that part was really weak. Tyrion walks up and is like, "walk away, you know you've lost" Cersei's standing there thinking, "I see like 50 people with spears and a dragon that I've designed defenses to account for (and have already killed one), and I've got the Golden Company, and I'm sitting inside a castle with really big walls. So, no?"
Bran has seriously implied that he can't take sides, so to speak. At least not in the affairs of men. He had to take out the Night King, but that was a threat to himself and all of mankind. This war is not his fight as the three-eyed raven. He's the history of man, not the guider of the future (for the most part).
I'm still amazed they thought it would be so easy (and probably still think it will be easy) for them the take out Cersei and take King's Landing. Nothing about their situation (even with two dragons) suggests they have the advantage. Though, Cersei has shown (and only ever known it seems) that she things overwhelming force is the answer, and forget tactics.
As for the people following Jon, they know he doesn't want power. He fights because it is right. He knows something is a trap and goes anyway. He knows helping the wildlings is a death sentence and goes anyway. His tactics aren't horrible, but they never stick to the plan.
Wouldn't it be cool if Daario and the 2nd Sons infiltrated the Golden Company. In next weeks preview there's someone dressed in all black.
Why didn't Cersei just kill them all there at the end? Because its a "Bond villain" type flex. She knows she can, but she won't because she enjoys torturing and milking it, a totally Cersei type thing to do. Like from the start, she basically knew she was gonna kill Missandei regardless. Plus, the meeting is one of those formality military honor type deals. One side asks for this, the other side asks for this but its understood no one is suppose to fight at that moment. Dany's side even mentions its one of these formalities in the planning scenes and know its likely futile. Even though Cersei is evil, its not inconceivable she would follow a bit of battle field decorum.
As for Tyrion, its not a joke he would try to reason. He has always shown a soft spot for his non-father family. His moments of caring are his faults because it does cloud his judgement on rational thought. You can also see examples of this with him insisting Danny is fit to rule despite evidence she has a ruthless streak (he cares for her so it blinds him). He thinks he knows Cersei is with child and we know for a fact Cersei DOES care deeply about her children. So Tyrion is basically throwing a hail mary here. Deep down, he knows it likely won't work but its the only shot he has left to prevent the bloodbath he knows is coming. And briefly, we see Cersei break emotionally a little bit when he does bring up her children but she gathers herself and proceeds as she had planned.
So now that Gendry is made legit and the next lord of Storms End when everyone else dies is he sitting on the Iron Throne?
Right now he's got the same vegas odds as Dany at +550
I'd be shocked if those odds are still available after the episode leaks. Or they will be removed shortly. All three episodes leaked and apparently the spoilers for last night's episode were dead on. There is a lot of reason to suspect the next two episodes information is also accurate.
Also as an aside to everyone to avoid SPOILERS: Over the next two weeks, be very careful when traversing any online GoT content. Do NOT look at comment sections, do NOT go to r/freefolk, and exercise caution in any similar situation. I had the Viserion death in s7 spoiled for me when I accidentally scrolled down while watching a YT video about the PREVIOUS episode and saw the first comment where someone had posted spoilers for no other reason than to just ruin it for people. People suck, so be careful.
yeah I never understood betting on shows there are hundreds (thousands?) of people that know the outcome already even before the leak
Ever since they ran out of book material the show has been a rushed mess with a few bright spots that keep me in. It just feels like since it got huge they try to keep topping the shock and awe of everything and keep giving fan service. How many times have character's arcs been forgotten or completely turned around for no reason?
For example, Jaime's 7 seasons of character development were thrown out the window. Bran being the 3ER has amounted to absolutely nothing with no explanation as to what it means going forward. The Long night was ended by a (albeit a badass) teenager with a dagger in one episode after being an existential threat for 8 seasons. And now no mention of the aftermath of white walkers or the dead.
Also, with a world where builders are capable of huge magic walls and large keeps, no one has thought to mass produce ballistas against dragons?
Sigh, I'm losing hope that GRRM will ever finish the books and this rushed finish of the saga is all we will get.
I feel the same way. Bran's character was built up to be the pivotal piece of the puzzle and now he is basically a throwaway character. In defense of the show writers, it is become pretty clear that even GRRM can't finish the story. He created a monster that grew beyond his control and even he can't wrap it up in a fulfilling manner. That being said, the show writers are still underwhelming.
I feel like Breaking Bad spoiled me. Vince Gilligan wrapped up every loose end perfectly. There were no wasted characters or wasted air time. Every scene had purpose.
say wha...? Martin is a slow writer who definitely never imagined HBO making this show. But I am sure he knows how to wrap it up. Just got to wait for it.
No modern person in Westeros has build a giant wall or large castle. Most of them were done during the time of Heroes (which we are getting a show on HBO about) or by Targaryans and their dragon help.
I look at it like this just like today we can't get to the moon but our grandparents could or the fact the Greek and Romans in many ways were more advanced than the Middle Ages if Europe proves that just because it's a later date on the calendar doesn't mean things have moved forward.
Ok sure, but if they were better builders before.. wouldn't that also be a reason for them to have better ballistas before? It's just one example in a long line of things that do not make sense militarily/otherwise in the show since the departure from the books. No scouts, or is Dany blind from the dragon to see Euron's fleet (for the second time)? Everyone just letting Bronn into and out of a tent with the Hand of the Queen? The Dothraki charging blindly? Just a lot of yikes that I have to hope will be done much differently in the books to stay in line with the level of detail put into the world.
Also, we could 100% go to the moon today. I know that's prolly not what you meant when you used that example but I have to say it.
I mean, we don't, or didn't until recently, know how to make Greek Fire. Advanced stuff gets lost all the time in history. Usually through a war of some sorts. They very well could have had ballistas and then the plans got destroyed or flying things weren't as much of a problem.
In reminded of all we lost when riding the golf ball at Epcot. The greet Library at Alexandria the Lighthouse in Egypt, the hanging gardens etc.
Most of the recipes and blueprints for things get lost or burned in fires. Many never make it to paper, staying in the minds of the creators and their apprentices. When they die, the secrets of the processes and such die with them. It's not difficult to imagine a world where things constantly have to be rediscovered.
Not really. Entire new equipment would have to be designed, tested and built. That's why China is spending so much time and money working to get there.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.popularmechanics.com/space/moon-mars/am...
"today we can't get to the moon" in the context you're using it implies that the ability has been lost, not merely neglected
It's lost in the same sense as anything once discovered is lost. It can be recreated because someone has already done it, those genies don't go back in the bottle. But no one currently can put a man on the moon and can't do it anytime soon.
... that same kind of terrible logic means I currently can't make a freaking grilled cheese since I ate all my bread. NASA could just rebuild a lot of the same things and meld it with current tech. Just because no one IS doing something doesn't mean they CAN'T.
Ate all the bread, lost your grain seeds, don't have a grain mill, don't have a farm to grow it then yes it's exactly the same.
Not sure why you're dying on this hill of not paying for something vs not being able to do something but I cannot emphasize enough that you're incorrect. Recent NASA and other space agencies accomplishments all point to us easily being able to reproduce something that was done in the 60's. Hell, we have more computing power in our phones than all of nasa did at that time.
Doesn't mean we will ever pay for it again in our lifetime, but it could be done. No knowledge or manufacturing capability was lost between now and then.
Yeah I'm with Fireman on this one. Not saying we couldn't make it back to the moon, but in reality if NASA or the US in general made a decision to go back to the moon I would argue that it would be at least 10 years before we could do it. The technology, infrastructure and equipment used to get there in '69 no longer exists and would have to be remade. We may know how to do it, but we would still have to do it. Just because it's been done before doesn't mean we could just push a button and be there.
This is so frustrating, sigh. Just because it takes time to do something doesn't mean we can't do it. It takes years to design and build any big infrastructure project but no one would ever compare that to anything remotely that we can't do it like Fireman has done here.
Again, no knowledge or manufacturing capabilities were lost between now than then. We only lost our desire to fund any lunar missions.
I think we agree then. We went to the moon 50 years ago. We haven't been back in a while. If we wanted to go back, we would have to set up a whole new team of individuals that likely wouldn't include anyone who has done it before at a huge cost of resources and time. While we know the science, we would have to apply all of this to new means and methods, technology, materials, codes, safety criteria, etc. This would be a hugely daunting task. It's not out of the realm of possibility we would be successful, but getting there today would look nothing like it did 50 years ago. The end result of a human walking on the moon may be the same, but everything else would be drastically different. There would be a huge amount of reinventing the wheel involved. Almost nothing that was applied the first time would be applied now other than basic constants and knowledge of the situation.
Compare this to if we had maintained the lunar program, and all of these changes would have been incorporated into the process as we went along. I think this is what Fireman's point is. When you stop executing a process, regardless of how successful you were at that process in the past, something is always lost. It may not be lost entirely, but getting back to where you were is not like flipping a switch. It has nothing to do with our capability, it has to do with our execution - desire or not. Not trying to frustrate you, just sharing an opinion.
nope
Link broken
But it should take 10 years to do something it took us 8 years to do in the first place. We have human rated rockets designed and in operation today. We have the launch pad, and we know all the orbital mechanics. Really the biggest thing we are missing is a lunar lander, which Blue Orgins has been working on. There are modern space craft designs out there, no one is paying for them to be built. We currently have human rated flight software. The knowledge to get to the moon exists, it's really manufacturing and mission planning.
https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/13/us/nasa-moon-2024-trnd-scn/index.html
Sam and Tormund got hugs, but not one pat for such a good boy.
Side note, I seriously hope that is not the last we see of those 3 characters
I think the only way we see them is if they defeat Cersei and they show up in King's Landing to celebrate. I doubt Tormund is gonna show back up though.
If he gets word that Jaime left Brienne high and dry...don't be so sure.
I would totally watch that.
I just did not understand why Dany was so insistent on getting to King's Landing as fast as possible. If anything, she was the one with time on her side. Other than to play up the rivalry between her and Sansa, why not let the soldiers who just fought off death some time to rest?
If Dany were patient, she could re-establish the main houses. She already put Gendry at Storm's End & she could also put Bronn at Highgarden (which would send a clear message to Cersei) - and basically fill out the remaining kindgoms with her allies. She could assist the farmers that were raided by the Lannister army all the while Cersei looks crazier and crazier by beating the drum of the "impending usurper". On top of that, if Cersei wants to keep the Golden Company under contract, she'd have to keep feeding them (and maybe paying them, depending on how the contract is written). In the end, it would be King's Landing vs. the rest of Westoros.
I am guessing with the revelation of Jon's claim, she feels she needs to act faster than ever, but that really does not change anything. She could easily make it so the common folk want her on the throne and then it does not matter who has a claim to it. Instead, she keeps running in head first and getting those she claims to care about killed.
Also, fuck Jon for barely acknowledging Ghost. I am happy he is ending up with Tormund because he will treat him like the very good boy he is.
Patience? We are down to two episodes!!! Ain't nobody got time for plot development and patience!
The other thing I keep coming back to is...all the ships wrecked, survivors wash up at Dragonstone, so where was this battle? And how did Missandei get captured?
So many just cheap "it happened, don't question it" moments on this show lately.
They were sailing to Dragonstone and got ambushed. Then I am guessing, someone saw them grab Missandei in the water as they swam for shore.
Yeah she was told "get in the skiff" meaning she likely bailed onto a small skiff which would make her pretty easy to pick out and capture.
Missandei was told to get in the lifeboat. It's assumed Euron captured the lifeboat and just assumed everyone else who jumped into the ocean died. It's not that egregious as people are making it out to be. I mean, he took down a dragon and captured the life boats. Is it that inconceivable someone would say "Hey, we did awesome here" and just leave without continuing to sail around murdering every single potential survivor floating in the water? The scorpions thing is more worth fretting about it but I swear people are just looking for any and every detail to complain about.
This is BY FAR the lowest rated episode on IMdB in the entire series. IMdB ratings are not the be all end all, and the scale is less 1-10 and more like 6-10 in reality, but in this case we can see a substantial difference between this episode and the previous 70. This one was rated 7.3 (30k plus reviews, many episodes have over 100k, but still a large sample), without a single other episode hitting under 8, most being over 9, and multiple 9.9's and other high 9's.
Everyone is seemingly getting more and more critical...I didn't find this episode any better or worse than your average GOT episode. There was plot development, character development, a small battle, and suspense built for the next episode. The ballista thing was weird for sure and I completely understand but it is kinda funny to think the ballista reload/accuracy while shooting down a dragon isn't realistic....
Night king dead army-ok
Lord of light bringing people from the dead- ok
Using dead peoples faces- ok
Dragons- ok
Giants- ok
Being able to control and see through the eyes of an animal -ok
Untold amounts of magic throughout the world- ok
Quick loading ballista- HOW DARE THEY
Yeah and I know everyone is going to say yes but all of those other things are actually magical while these are just men with a tool. They're right but it isn't a big deal its like the people that say "Well he's shooting a 1911 and didn't reload after 14 shots wtf"
each work of fiction is set in a universe with fundamental rules about how that reality operates. In GoT we're working with pretty standard physics, feudal agrarian society, middle ages level technology, plus some fantasy creatures and supernatural/magic elements thrown in. The ballista / scorpion weapon in S8E4 was completely off the rails with regard to the precedents set in the GoT universe. Nobody complaining about their use in S8E4 is complaining that it's unrealistic they could take down a dragon, we're all dissatisfied with the presentation, which 'popped the bubble', so to speak, on the suspension of disbelief that any good fiction supports, because it's at such odds with prior record of the GoT universe physics behaving much like the real world. Physics like being able to see things, Physics like spring loaded weapons having a limited range & velocity, Physics like adjusting the aim of a heavy siege weapon to track a moving target from a moving platform being exceptionally difficult to the extreme.
Opening from a surprise sea to air ambush (wtf) with 3 shots 3 hits (wtf) from a boat bobbing around in the ocean, against flying targets at an angle, several hundred feet in the air and seemingly several thousand feet away. Then proceed to miss the next 19 shots (11 ships firing x2) against the remaining aerial target including an incredibly fast reload for such a powerful spring-loaded weapon. Resetting those weapons should take several minutes of cranking a large windlass to bend the powerful springs back, otherwise they'd be harmlessly bouncing off the sides of ships, not ripping huge chunks out of them (after being reloaded exceptionally fast for a 2nd/3rd time)
Several more plausible encounters that still result in Rhaegal getting taken down have been presented in this very thread, scenarios that don't abuse dues ex machina accuracy, sea to air ambushes, and physics-ignorant weaponry.
The rest of the episode had its ups and downs but that scene was just garbage.
This is perfect.
Not to mention that the bolts have to be incredibly heavy to do that much damage and they flew with less arc than bullets would at that range
It's called "Willing Suspension of Disbelief". I'm willing to suspend my disbelief for magic because, well, magic didn't actually exist. Physics, however, does, and I'm much less likely to suspend my disbelief over things that violate basic fucking Physics 101.
So Valeryn (sp) steel? Dragonglass? Age of Heroes?
He literally just said he can suspend disbelief for magical things in a universe that has magic...
None of those three things as of yet have involved magic. Now with the new show(s) in the works that may change but as of currently knowledge none of those were made with magic or the use of magic.
I would consider fire breathed by a magical creature as "made with magic".
How they are made hasn't been confirmed yet.
You really like to argue some odd angles on things.
Honestly I don't care about debating the physics of ballistas nearly as much as the fact that this season has devolved into a Michael Bay Transfomers movie. Yeah it looks amazing at times and it's got action and excitement but the plot is a steaming pile of dung and has betrayed everything that made Game of Thrones exceptional. I understand why it's happened because they had significantly less material to cover over the course of the first several seasons and were able to develop this immersive world of complex, compelling characters but trying to resolve everything in such a hurried fashion has caused the wheels to fall off at this point. Fans are grasping at straws and concocting wild theories in hopes of ascribing more meaning to this season than there actually is, but the unfortunate truth is that it's a sloppy, intellectually shallow season with the singular goal of dragging the series across the finish line.
I'm sure some fans will be happy with it but speaking as someone who watched the premiere and became so engrossed that I read all the books before the second season even came out, this season and the resolution of these storylines have been an absolutely massive disappointment.
I really disagree when it comes this past episode and the last episode. Last episode was a typical battle episode. There is usually around one per season. And this episode was like the OG shows. Pretty much all plot driven. Tons of scheming. Loads of potential for unexpected conflicts.
What you said about resolving everything in a hurried fashion is so agree with though. That was why I hated last season. It just felt like another show. I think that I have just come to terms with the fact that they have a lot of shit to resolve and try not to let it bother me.
I think everyone is just panicking over that the show is ending and the story is ending. They know the ending will be different in the books. The author can't even finish his books because of how convoluted and intertwined his story is. It seems to me that he ended up getting bored with writing the same characters and then started picking more from the lore. Now he has all these people and has to explain how they get to the end, while still maintaining the same writing quality.
I also think a lot of people are going to be disappointed when the last two books come out and there's going to be deuce ex machina and loose threads. Or hell, the books never come out. Then they're left with an ending that had to deal with writing in the dark, only seeing the very end, and nothing little in between. Not only that but they have to make a TV show... You can't have 200 important characters and actually spend time following people as they travel for months like Littlefinger's "teleporter".
So now you have to write ends to stories with 1/3rd the characters involved in each arc with the remaining playing the roles of two or three others...
That is shocking to me. The first two episodes in this season were shitty fan service. And multiple episodes last season were absurd. I wonder why people disliked this one.
Oh man, best episode in like two seasons! This was like the OG GoT. Lots of interpersonal plotting. So much set up for betrayal. I love that they are building up Danny to turn into her father. Can't wait for the eventual Jon vs Danny conflict. I think she is gonna snap and try to have him killed and he will have to kill her for the greater good.
Cersei is a certified badass. I hope she ends up winning it all.
What are you talking about? All they did was defy physics with balistas and boats.
Is that sarcasm? I honestly don't know. Have people been complaining about the ballistas lmao?
Only like half the comments from the new episodes involve some sort of complaint about them.
Lol, I just saw them. Yeah, I'm sure they wouldn't travel like that but I don't think most of the projectiles in this show would every be as accurate as we see. Just kinda gotta roll with it because there are always things that don't make sense physically in these shows (cough Arya getting stabbed a bunch of times and then doing parkour around a city for 20 minutes cough).
Maisie Williams said that the directors/writers wanted her to act even less injured than she obviously was.
"Cersei is a certified badass."
This is the issue a lot of fans have. While everything was still following Martin's writing, Cersei was characterized as not being nearly as smart as she thinks she is. This was outright told to her by Tywin and hammered home in conversation after conversation. The most glaring example of this is the collosal mistake of ceding too much power to the High Sparrow to try to out-maneuver the Tyrells. She was most definitely not characterized as a badass.
Unfortunately, it is clear that Cersei is one of D&D's favorite characters and they have stated as such as well as how much they enjoy working with Lena Headey. In their minds, Cersei is the big-bad of the show. So when they took over the writing they basically threw all of the show's previously established character of her to level her up. Suddenly she has become some genius tactician despite the fact that she has literally no military advisors left and the only one giving her advice is Qyburn. Meanwhile, Dany and all of the people left with any military experience on her side have suddenly become dumb beyond belief just to move the plot forward and make Cersei look better. They have literally said in after show comments that Cersei is at a disadvantage so they had to "level the playing field". This is the only reason that they made Dany ignore everyone's advice to let everyone rest before they went south. Shit, Rhaegal could barely fly, but she loves her "child" so much that she would drag him to a battle? They literally said "Dany forgot about Euron's fleet" in the after show. After she had just discussed Euron's fleet in a war meeting. So now, Dany has only one dragon, no Navy and even less men than before. It is just temporary stupidity to forward plot, which is just plain bad writing.
If anything Cersei has shown that she is no different than the Mad King (how many people did she massacre when she blew up the Sept?) and is basically already what they are turning Dany into. So we are going to end up with one Mad Queen (Dragonfire Class) against another Mad Queen (Wildfire Class) just so the showrunners can blow a bunch of shit up to look "cool" on screen. Then, the Bay-ification of the series will be complete.
I will note that I am a show-only consumer. I haven't read one word of the books. Every complaint that I have is based on the show only and my disappointment from watching the show evolve from spectacular, intricate, intelligent, appointment television into this schlocky, kiddie-pool deep mess.
Since when does badass mean she is smart? I actually don't think she has shown to be exceptionally clever at all. I'm referring to her "I don't give a fuck about anyone" attitude that she carries. She has made a few dumbass moves so far, but she is still a badass in my eyes.
Additionally, I don't agree that Dany has ever shown to be a good militaristic mind. In fact, she disregarded her advisers and that so far is her undoing. Her fucking up in that regard is within her character for me.
Also, who else could be the "big bad" at this point in the show, i.e. literally the conclusion, other than her?
Historically,, every move she made, no matter how clever she thought it was backfired on her. King Rob dies, joffery becomes king and immediately disobeys her, she wants to break up the proposed marriage of stark and tyrell so she tells daddy who orders sansa to marry tyrion, he then orders her to marry Loras. She brings back the faith militant and almost immediately gets locked up by them. She blows up the temple taking out the tyrells and the FM, her son commits suicide. She orders an attack on high Garden and gets their money, she loses a large portion of her army when the dothraki and dragons take them out.
And yet after all that she sits in the Iron Throne. Bad. Ass.
Honestly, pretty much every single charscter has made some pretty big blunders. Thats what makes it an enjoyable show. No one is perfect.
She had to get an awful lot of her family killed to do it and there's not many of her house left.
True, but she outlasted them. Badass.
She's not happy, she killed either directly or indirectly anyone she ever loved or loved her (She thinks Tyrian and her brother are dead or about to be). She ended her house and essentially has become the mad queen.
That's not winning. That's madness.
madness?
No one wins in GoT. Everyone suffers. And you dont have to be happy to be a badass. I dont think anyone in GoT is happy lol.
See, I must just have a different definition of badass.
To me, badass is when you defeat your enemies, in a particular manner.
It's been my perspective that she never considered her children, lover or the rest of her family as enemies, with the possible exception of Tyrian, but that wouldn't have been the case until after her son, the king, was killed.
There is no badass here. This is a loser, in a game of last man standing that only she was playing, with her own family.
Fair, although from that perspective i believe that makes every character a loser lol.
"I choose violence."
Agree on D&D plot devices being overly stoopid. This season is likely cramming 2 to 3 1000 page books into 6 episodes and they are left to creating that narrative without Martin so no wonder there are issues. Overall doesn't detract anything for me personally. Ultimately will read the books for the full effect, this is just the teaser.
Disagree on your comments about Cersei though. Long ago on a previous GOT season thread I predicted, correctly, that Sansa would become a badass and be the Lady of Winterfell. As I recall most didn't agree and whined about how weak a character she is, how dumb she is, etc. But they missed one of Martin's writing troupes. He likes to write women who are weak becoming strong. Dany, Sansa, Arya, Brienne and yes, Cersei. So yeah, she made mistakes and yeah her father put her in her place, BUT she's still standing when they all died. And as she said, when you play the game of thrones, you win or you die. Her arc has gone from shipped off arranged marriage all the way to ruthless, iron fisted Queen. She learned her lessons from he father, from Tyrion, from Jaime, from the High Sparrow, from the Tyrells, and on... and she's still the Queen. Much like Sansa learned from everyone and is now calculated and cunning. She says as much to the Hound in the last episode.
Cersei's a badass. Same with all the other women Martin gave the "little bird" arc to.
I would definitely call Sansa a badass because she has learned at every step of the way and become so adept that she out-Littlefingered Littlefinger and is playing 3-D chess while everyone else is playing checkers. I think she is by far the "smartest" player left that has also been shown to actually care about governing. If I could chose a "winner" she would be it.
I was too busy looking at the parallels between Dany and Cersei that I missed the parallels between Cersei and Sansa, so thanks for pointing that out. That makes sense.
Despite all of my grousing, I still enjoy the show immensely. I just have some criticisms, frustrations, and disappointment about what could have been vs what we are getting that it feels good to get out. But GOT is like pizza right? Sub-optimal GOT is still pretty damn good.
So Sansa learned from Al Groh!
Jon Snow couldn't even pat Ghost on the head before ditching him. Lost all respect.
Am I wrong in thinking Jamie didn't leave Winterfell and his new love to go back to Cersei as her lover but to help in the attack and maybe kill her? Online everyone is mad at Jamie for leaving her at Winterfell but I think he did it to protect her from coming with him.
Not alone. Mentioned above.
I think it was much more of a realization that these people he now has sided with have no clue how evil she is and he feels nobody else knows her like he does and if she falls it will likely need to be his hand that does it.
I am baffled that all of the people complaining about Jaime leaving Brienne are so easily misinterpreting that scene. Jaime was clearly "White-Fanging" her because he is leaving to "take care of " Cersei and knows that he isn't coming back. He doesn't want Brienne to go with him and get killed as well.
I like to think that and think thats what will happen in the novels, but man i'm having a hard time not seeing D&D making Cersei his tragic flaw that haunts him.
When this season is over and I rewatch I'm going to come back with other Ballista moments and make you all realize how entirely over reactionary you're being.
By all means, make sure that any ballista clips are from TV shows, and not real life ballista shots, in order to support your overreaction claim.
I'm not talking about the actual ballista I'm talking about other moments where things were unlikely or physics didn't support or whatever ridiculous claims these ballista experts are saying ruined the show. I'm positive the series is littered with other things like this because its a damn tv show.
1: last episode Theon managed to shoot arrows at wights till he ran out of arrows meanwhile everyone else was overwhelmed in a matter of seconds. Makes no sense ruined the show there's no evidence in the show that Theon is capable of speed shooting arrows.
How did Theon and Sansa jump off the wall of Winterfell when Theon had just pushed that women off a shorter wall and killed her?
It's first name is Jon.
They jumped feet first into deep snow Ramsey's woman fell back or head first into hard ground?
I can't believe the snow was that deep outside yet none inside it isn't logical!
Snow blowers.
sounds like the name of one of Littlefinger's establishments up north.
You guys care waaaay too much about how realistic a fictional show about dragons and white walkers are.
Calm down.
This is a mischaracterization of the complaints on here. Multiple people have mentioned that the ballista thing is not just about the ballistas, it's emblematic of the show's turn away from its earlier form into this action movie style, and also an example of how the plots, character decisions, and even the simple physics of the world are being bent towards whatever creates the most shocking, high tension, or high drama moments instead of how things would have progressed earlier in the show. I, like many others here, have been watching the show live for 6, 7, 8 years, etc. and I don't think it's unreasonable for those who have invested that much time watching, thinking about, discussing the show, reading the books, to have some reasonable complaints about this shift in characterizations, questionable tactics/physics for shock value, etc. People are allowed to care about a show they've invested this much into. If you like how everything is going, that's great, and I don't fault you for having that opinion, but telling people to calm down after dropping a one liner that contorts and oversimplifies their stance to seem ridiculous is insulting.
I'm going to limit my response since I truly don't care that you care about small trivial things.
I've watched the show from the beginning and read all the books. The show diverged from the books a bunch of times too but hey, it's still all good as the show is excellent.
Sure the show has turned more action-ee because that's the whole point. There was going to be a battle with the dead, and then a battle with Cersei. Just because it didn't live up to your standards of what a true military tactical genius would do doesn't take away from how great the show and season has been and you're picking at the peas and missing the entree.
If you're looking for everything to be tied-up perfectly at the end of season 6 then I think you're going to be sorely disappointed. Sure i'm not happy with everything either in the show, and you can certainly take my laughter at your outrage however you'd like, but the bottom line is yes - you're taking it way too seriously.
It's a show. Not your (real) life.
You certainly care enough to once again be condescending and insulting.
I have said my piece.
I generally don't discuss my real life on internet forums, just like I don't talk about Game of Thrones all that much in real life. I'll stick to over analyzing one of the most popular shows of all time in a thread specifically devoted to it, thanks.
I think the bigger problem is getting everything in to 1 6 episode season. If they had 10 episodes or another season after this one it may be possible to carry out some of the plots the way everyone wants them too, instead they have to cram a lot into the 6 episodes to include 2 decisive battles.
Yupp this has been my response every time. You've got 8 years of plot coming to a head in 6 episodes. They're going to have to forgo some of the plot structure to tie up what they can, sometimes that means dramatic battle scenes and exaggerated weapon effectiveness.
From what I understand the shorter season is their own doing. HBO wanted more, but they declined and wanted to wrap and move on.
And if there were two seasons instead of one everyone would lose their shit even more. With the books not being done anytime soon "real fans" would get more of what they don't want. Two guys trying to tie up a gagillion plot lines guessing what the author doesn't even know yet while filming a TV show instead of a book that can be as long as it needs to be because you can pick up and go whenever you please....
It reminds me of how pissed I got at The Walking Dead in that episode where the group has Negan surrounded and sit there listening to him give a long speech out in the open without firing on him.
The dead have become zombies and are killing and eating everyone?
Ok. Sure.
A group armed to the teeth won't fire on their worst enemy when he exposes himself while delivering a lengthy diatribe?
Sir, you go to far.
In D&D's defense, they didn't sign up to write their own fan fiction for the 2 most critical seasons of the show. They signed up to put George's words on the screen. Unfortunately they ran out of words and without George laying out the whole path, which only he can really do and probably hasn't completely settled on, they had to fill in the holes. I've just accepted to enjoy the show, knowing the books will be vastly different.
Even after death, the Night King still trolling Daenerys.
Here are some things that hurt my opinion of the episode.
-How did half of the allied forces survive Winterfell?
-Why does no one use scouts or recon forces in this universe? Maybe Bran could be useful now.
-Why did Dany forget about the scorpions?
-Sansa.
-Varys.
-Bronn got away with a hell of a lot in a place where he has no power.
-It is seeming all but confirmed that the NK and white walkers really were nothing more than a McGuffin.
There is more that I didn't really care for, but these are some things that I remember off the top of my head. I hope they can pull it back together for the finale, but my confidence is close to nil at this point. All of the shiny distractions that D&D are trying to use are starting to bore me.
Edit: Also, of course Dany is getting to the end of her rope, she keeps getting screwed and losing things she earned or loves because of unnecessary nonsense.
This was the biggest "WTF?!" moment for me from the last episode. I could not at all believe that the poor strategic implements, getting overrun to the point of the wights basically taking the castle, and yet afterwards they still have half of their forces
They don't have half the total, just half the unsullied.
IIRC Jon said 1/2 of the north as well.
Yeah I think every commander took half their troops off the board...then all the free people left.
There are no Dothraki left that I've seen in any scenes?
Yeah I don't think he says anything just takes his one big chip away I'm pretty sure they're basically entirely gone, a few rode back in that scene in episode 3 but I haven't seen a big mention of them. That whole scene basically leads people to believe they lost about 50% of their fighting force.
Idk how the hell there's any Unsullied left. When Greyworm pulled the string to the trench, spike thingy I said "oh my gosh...he just sacrificed his men." And the NK's army was standing at the trench two minutes later.
They weren't all out there. The unsullied have a reputation and history of fighting to the death and those guys knew their job.
This has become an official Airing of (GoT) Grievances thread.
I don't care about the ballista thing, but I get why people do. I'm annoyed she didn't fly around the ships. Or straight down at them. Or see them in the first place.
And I'm annoyed with the coffee cup because it's a sign of a lack of focus.
And sure, I'm annoyed at the lack of significant deaths from the Battle, the stupidity of trying to talk to Cersei, Jon not petting Ghost, the Dany/Sansa beef, useless Bran.....
But I'm most upset about Jaime sleeping with Brienne....twice! I get it, they are friends and respect one another. They saved each others lives. But Jaimie, even with a gold hand and shaggy hair, is a 9. Brienne, as much as we love her courage and loyalty, is a 4. Sure, a 9 might sleep with a 4 if he's really, really drunk or horny. Didn't see either from Jaimie. Then to keep it up for a day. I don't see it. That's not a couple!!!! Seems like D&D just pandering to the fans. Just let them be friends and it's okay if she jones' after him, but it's completely implausible that he sleeps with her.....twice!
Not sure if I'm more disturbed that you think those women are 4s or that those guys are 9s.
Its the reverse. Here is the hot guy plain girl pictures then.
They're both ugly though
Pete must have a python. Only explanation.
They don't call him Pete "Podrick" Davidson for nothing, I'm sure.
/s? I hope
Spoiler alert:
Leaked footage of what has Euron shitting his pants as he looked into the sky.
Cersei is getting her elephants after all.
This show has gone off the rails! Where have all the boobies gone! We need to get back to the roots of the story, boobs.
Apparently they digitally removed the coffee cup.
And if you were wondering what Euron Greyjoy was seeing in the sky in the scenes from next week...
God, I do love r/freefolk. The memes are oustanding.
713 posts is taking forever to load on my phone. New thread has been started.