OT: Game of Thrones final season (episode discussion)

I figure we might as well get one of these going so we can discuss each episode as it airs and check the status of our guesses from the previous thread.

For starters, it was great just to have GoT back. When the intro music started playing I was lit. There were a few things I didn't particularly like about the episode (looking at you 'stink eye' from a dragon), just felt a little too cheesy for Thrones.

I really enjoyed that they have started to get the reunions and important revelations going right out of the gate rather than have them hanging over the short season. The most important being Sam telling Jon who is really is (and what I think may in fact be the most important line of the whole episode when he asks him if he thinks Dany would give up her crown to save her people)

Jaime already arriving at Winterfell and Bran and him sharing a look - great.
Tyrion and Sansa talking about their previous (and I guess technically still in force?) wedding.
Arya and Jon sharing one of the few genuinely happy moments the series has ever had was fantastic. Her line about using Needle "once or twice" was excellent
Learning that Tormund and Edd both made it off the wall alive
Arya, The Hound, and Gendry talking together, and seeing that Gendry can make dragonglass weapons

Poor Ned Umber...although that was a nice creepy scene to close out the episode

All in all I expected it to be a set up episode, and for the most part it was the characters reuniting and explaining their various motivations. I was fine with that to set up the bigger events coming.

My one updated theory from what we saw is I think they are dropping a number of hints that Bran and the Night King are super connected, if not outright Bran = The Night King. My thinking is that we keep seeing those spiral shaped patterns left by NK (Ned Umber, the horses at the Fist of the First Men, etc). We also keep seeing those spiral patterns left by the Children of the Forest (in the caverns below Dragonstone, as they zoom above the weirwood when they created the NK in the first place).

We don't know if there are any Children left, but we do know one "something like a man" that is closely connected with them now. I doubt the NK is leaving the spirals as a warning, as everyone already knows that bad shit is headed their way. Its some other kind of message. Perhaps Bran's way of saying who he is.

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Comments

The whole dragon riding sequence was unnecessary and if they wanted to add fuel to the R+L=J fire they should have had John ride a dragon last season before the cat was let out of the bag. I feel like Sam better have a copy of the journal where the R & L wedding was noted or he is going to look like Ned Stark trying to usurp a queen with some little known info from a book and visions from Bran, especially after the scene where Danny informs him she BBQ'd his family.

Arya's dagger must have some future significance because every major character she reunited with pointed it out. My guess is it the weapon that takes down the Night King. I did not in rewatching some of the episodes this past week that the Red Woman (whatever her name is) after buying Gendry told him that he would build up and take down kings. He is currently building up a weapons supply for one king to try to take down another.

Come to Blacksburg and see what the Hokie Pokie is really all about

They have been commenting on the dagger a lot, and it featured prominently in the storyline (used to frame Tyrion, etc) earlier as well. I think you may be onto something with Arya likely taking out an important foe with it, or at least it having a critical role.

The whole dragon riding sequence was unnecessary and if they wanted to add fuel to the R+L=J fire they should have had John ride a dragon last season before the cat was let out of the bag.

I think this scene did 2 things:

  • Makes Jon more likely to believe he's a targarian
  • Furthers the love story (for lack of a better term?) between Jon and Dany.

    Twitter me

    The R+L=J theory had such strong wheels that they almost had to do it the way they did. It ended up working out because the reveal that Rhaegar was his father wasn't even the biggest reveal of the show since Rhaegar and Lyanna were actually married.

    I think they knew the theory was prevalent but left it out there the way they did then dropped the bomb in S7E5 so casually.

    I have no idea why my username is VT_Warthog.

    Arkansas blew a 24-0 lead in the Belk Bowl.

    Bran and the NK being linked in some way adds to Arya's dagger being significant given that it was used in Brans attempted assassination.

    And Bran had it and gave it to Arya. Who knows what he has seen and if he was putting something into motion.

    Come to Blacksburg and see what the Hokie Pokie is really all about

    Arya's dagger must have some future significance because every major character she reunited with pointed it out. My guess is it the weapon that takes down the Night King.

    Nailed it!

    I'm pretty sure Arya stabbed him with something else...she gave Sansa the dagger before she entered the crypt.

    she gave Sansa a dragon glass dagger, not catspaw

    Good eye. I couldn't tell with how dark the episode was

    The exact reason I'm going to rewatch it with my screen setting adjusted after work.

    (add if applicable) /s

    *takes a bow*

    Come to Blacksburg and see what the Hokie Pokie is really all about

    what I think may in fact be the most important line of the whole episode when he asks him if he thinks Dany would give up her crown to save her people

    The negativity towards Dany (from the viewers of the show, NOT the characters within the show) is a little unsettling to me. She has made mistakes just like every character in the show, likening her to the mad king in conversations (Varys-Tyrion discussions) seem like just a way to build a little extra drama into the pot. The fact that she was so willing to put her lifelong goal of reclaiming the throne on hold to stop the white walkers is a huge difference, and shows again where her true loyalties lie which is to the people she feels responsible for. She has proven over and over again that she is a liberator more than anything. I think too many people have a Jon-centric view of the show and it's just not that simple. The show's strength is in its multiple main characters.

    I think that scene and the reunions/dragon riding exemplify EXACTLY what these first two episodes will consist of: Fan appeasing moments (reunions/Dany and Jon riding dragons together), and tedious drama [Sam suddenly caring about his dad who hates him and that he himself despises, appealing that Jon should be the ruler and they should turn on Dany (worst idea in the entire show)] to make the episodes feel less like the setup episodes that they clearly are. It's likely that not much other than what I listed above will happen in episode 2 either. I don't think this will even be an issue. It's all just buying time while they setup the Battle of Winterfell which is likely to be episode 3.

    I didn't take that scene as Sam particularly caring that much about his father. His reaction to hearing about Dickon getting roasted was much more pronounced than hearing about his dad. He basically said his dad dying was fine because his brother would be the ruler than. John Bradley I thought did a nice job in the scene conveying that.

    As for the negativity towards Dany, I think it was established well enough. The Northerners dislike outsiders to begin with, and now they have not just an outsider, but a Targaryen that also happens to be the daughter of Mad King that murdered several prominent Starks, showing up at their home with the guy that they declared to be king with his knee bent. I would have thought it poor writing if almost everyone wasn't pissed off at her.

    The North Remembers

    I mean he was already on the verge of crying when he heard about his dad. I agree completely that he was likely much more upset about Dickon. Either way, trying to suddenly stake a claim to the throne before fighting the white walkers would be the single worst timed decisions in the show. If they aren't all fighting together they are guaranteed to lose that fight. Sam suggesting that is understandable within the emotion of the moment, but it's an awful idea and it also goes against the constant running theme that Jon has no interest in being the king. Every time he is in a position of power he either breaks all the rules (Lord Commander) and gets mutineed, or he immediately cedes the power to someone he deems more important, as his primary goal is to protect everyone he loves from the Night King. He is not meant to be a traditional leader and has no interest in it.

    In regards to the negativity, I meant from the fanbase not within the characters inside the show. The politics of the North make their uneasiness and general lack of trust make so much sense. I agree completely with that point, I just should have been more clear about what I was talking about.

    Gotcha on the Dany point. Yeah I do not understand any negativity on a meta sense. I think it will be interesting to see how that develops, as I tend to think we will not see Jon and Dany together by the end of the series. Dany has and always will be focused on ruling Westeros. This detour to combat the Walkers makes sense in her character because she is practical enough to know that that rule would be short lived if the Walkers defeat everybody else first.

    I'm not sure why exactly, I'm hoping its not because one of them (Jon most likely) dies. But between finding out his lineage (although Dany might not have as much of an issue there as Targaryens kept things in the family all the time) or their differences on what things should look like if/when then they defeat the Night King.

    Gotcha on the Dany point. Yeah I do not understand any negativity on a meta sense.

    probably because people forget that the viewers know more about what's actually happening than the characters do.

    "Why gobble gobble chumps asks such good questions, I will never know." - TheFifthFuller

    I actually think Dany's history suggests she wouldn't end up ruling the seven kingdoms as status quo if she ever even gets the chance to do so. She has proven time and time again that as soon as she gains a position of power, she immediately frees everyone and only wants them to follow her if they choose to. She is a liberator first, conqueror second, and leader third. I also think all the talk of breaking the wheel suggests a situation where (if she ever gets the chance) she would be more likely to completely deconstruct the concept of one ruler of the seven kingdoms, rather than fall in line with all the other rulers before her. Either way, that's what I want to happen, and there's no scenario I'd like more if this happened with Jon by her side.

    That said, I agree that it's very likely that things don't end well for one or both of them. Whether it's a falling out between them or not, as I do think there is a scenario where they care about each other to the end, it just seems likely given GRRM's history that one or both them will die at some point this season. It also could make for some really incredible moments. I also don't think anyone will sit on the Iron Throne at the end of the series in the traditional sense. I think the Seven Kingdoms are deconstructed and if anyone actually is literally sitting there at the end, I imagine it would be moreso symbolic than as the ruler of the seven kingdoms.

    Perhaps the goal of the White Walkers is to simply get rid of the existing power structure in Westeros when necessary?

    The last time they showed up it forced a bunch of disparate groups that didn't trust each other to come together. And frankly, given what we have seen the Night King be able to do, it makes sense that perhaps they weren't as much defeated during the Long Night, but simply left back to the far north until it was necessary for them to come back after their goal was accomplished.

    I still have not gotten the sense that the NK is simply out there to eradicate everyone, because it seems like he could do it relatively easily at any time.

    I think you're onto something with the Night King having motivations that might not be "eradicate everything." He could simply be looking for Bran, for one example.

    Also for anyone who wants, in my opinion the best, online content for explanations and callback breakdowns you should check out "Alt Shift X" on YouTube. Incredibly well done videos with tons of show/book context explained and used to project future possibilities. He recently made a video about the historical relationships between Starks and the White Walkers.

    A theory I saw was to stop a Valyrian Doom type eruption from destroying Westeros. Hence a song of ice and fire

    Recruit Prosim

    Dany is probably already pregnant.
    Jon and Dany are both Targaryan and Jon is a Stark as well, wargs with a wolf.

    Their daughter will rule.

    Everyone else is dead, of import.

    This is going to be great for the ACC.

    My read on Dany is: conquerer first; liberator second; leader/ruler third.

    I think the mad queen conversation is important. Her major flaw is her temper. I think the scene where she finds that she killed Samwell's family will be relevant later. I think it might give her pause before she kills someone, or it might make Sam not trust her.

    Speaking of this scene, I didn't particularly like the way they did it. The script/situation felt forced to me. I wish she didn't say anything to Sam, and she just mentioned it to Jorah after Samwell left, and then Sam found out what happened in a later scene.

    Twitter me

    I think the conversation serves a purpose and is important, but I don't think she is going to be become like the Mad King as many people seem to think.

    If for no other reason than she knows that tale and understands nobody would follow her if she went that route.

    I thinmk she wants to be good but she is displaying some of the same characteristics as her father. She is paranoid and now that the cats out of the bag about Jon, I think it may send her over the top. She had to eb stopped by Mornmont from firing Tyrian and she always suspects his loyalties still lye with the Lannisters. She had a visceral reaction to Jon telling her who he was and I think the post above pointed to the similarities to how Ned was treated when he discovered to the truth about the Lannister children. She is power hungry and in the end she will stop at nothing to sit on the iron throne.

    Correy

    A friend point out to me that almost all of the good that Dany has done has been due to the guidance of her advisory panel. She almost never comes to these things on her own. If left to her own devices, may have scorched King's landing 3 seasons ago.

    I always have trouble articulating my thoughts after an episode... nonetheless:

    Teared up a little bit at the Jon and Arya reunion. Her reunion with Gendry was nice too, although I'm pretty sure the writers had some ulterior motives with her weapon. I'm starting to dig the theory that she kills the night king.

    I think Jon knowing he is the true heir to the iron throne will really piss Dany off. She will think he has hidden it from her for awhile. When Sansa asked if he bent the knee for the north or because he loved her I thought for sure he did it for the north first. I guess they aren't mutually exclusive though.

    Bran is a little freak just hanging around Winterfell. I really don't know what to make of him in his current state. Part of me loves it because he is just so detached and so pivotal, part of me hates it because his story was compelling before he became a weirdo.

    Jamie's storyline is my favorite (Theon's a close second). The Episode 2 preview really excited me because he's almost in a bit of a no-man's land. He left the woman he loved (albeit his sister) for this cause. Now it seems uncertain that they will welcome him. Really cheering for him now.

    Think Bron betrays Cersei and takes Tyrion's offer to double what she's offering him. Cersei is going to say her baby is Euron's. I also feel like Cleganebowl odds took a hit yesterday.

    Overall it was an exciting first episode. Only five more to go. Bittersweet.

    I have no idea why my username is VT_Warthog.

    Arkansas blew a 24-0 lead in the Belk Bowl.

    I think the whole thing with Bronn was more a device to get him to Winterfell when shit hits the fan. There wouldn't have been another logical reason really otherwise. I see him fighting alongside everyone when the battle happens. Although his whole character is about his own personal enrichment, we have seen him do things out of care and concern for people he likes with no monetary incentive (staring down a full grown dragon and shooting him comes to mind)

    Ned Umber's graphic scene at the end seems like a recreation of the scene when the NK was created by the Children of the Forest. He has a spear or knife stabbed through his chest holding him up against the wall. This is a message to Bran but I cant figure out what he's trying to convey.

    The Night King (and the White Walkers, more generally) have consistently used the Children's imagery throughout the series, even dating back to the first episode. Their creation is derived from the Children's magic (or the Old Gods) and they are using that imagery.

    What struck me about Ned Umber was that he was pierced through the chest in the middle of the spiral. Recall Bran's vision of the creation of the Night King. He was stabbed through the chest with dragonglass while tied to a weirwood tree in the middle of a spiral of rocks. The Night King is either creating these scenes as a message or is somehow deriving power from them.

    To follow up on the symbol topic, for those interested, the episode's director explained what they mean:

    "As we saw with Bran and the Three-Eyed Raven," Hill begins, referring to one of the most consequential yet oft-overlooked visions in season six's 'The Door', "The spiral pattern was sacred to the Children of the Forest, who created the Night King by sacrificing a captured man in a spiral 'henge of stones.' The Night King then adopted the symbol as a sort of blasphemy, like Satan with the upside-down cross."

    http://watchersonthewall.com/dave-hill-game-thrones-season-8-premiere-wi...

    Best part is Bronn getting hit with the "poor girl...the pox will take her within the year.....Which one?!"

    Another white bronco? The first one didn't go too far.

    So, in that same scene - the women have the following conversation:

    "That boy, Eddie?"
    "The ginger"
    "That's him; came back with his face burnt right off. He's got no eyelids now."
    "How does he sleep with no eyelids?"

    A ginger Lannister soldier named Eddie...
    Source

    I get that they needed a set up episode, where every speculation we essentially already knew, becomes a matter of fact, but man did that feel like a waste of an episode for a series that only has 5 left. I'm just worried that everything is going to feel so rushed at the end to make sure they clean up all the storylines.

    15 Straight

    I initially thought that too, but consider the fact that in one episode we got as much progress as most entire seasons have made. We're already on track for essentially "bonus" episodes, because the series was only intended for 70 episodes (7 seasons of 10), but they decided to extend it to a total of 73. After getting all the background basically out of the way in one episode, the remainder of the season should be action and resolution of storylines.

    I like the perspective of looking at the last three episodes as a "bonus". It's pretty much a foregone conclusion that the battle for winterfell between the living and the dead will be the entirety of episode 3, so that last three episodes are the "bonus". Good eye on that.

    Also keep in mind that we're getting some bonus time too.

    Ep 1 was 54 minutes, Ep 2 is 58 minutes, then Ep 3 is 82 minutes, Ep 4 is 78 minutes, and Ep 5 & 6 are 80 minutes. If you look at total run-time, this is more like a 7.5 episode season, just condensed into fewer

    Now finish up them taters; I'm gonna go fondle my sweaters.

    Somebody put a bell on him!

    I posted this on the Trailer thread earlier but thought I might have a better shot at an answer here.

    So in the intro there was a graphic on the side of the rotating rings with a lion on the left looking at what appears to be some 4 legged thing that had been hanged and shot with arrows while further right was some person/white walker holding a wolf's head. Anyone have an ideas about it? What was the thing in the middle?

    Come to Blacksburg and see what the Hokie Pokie is really all about

    That was depicting the Red Wedding. The Lion (with the help of the Boltons and Freys) beheading the wolf.

    The center is the headless wolf full of arrows.

    The other images are...

    The Night King destroying the wall:

    Birth of Dany's Dragons:

    Full intro:

    I thought that might be a throwback to earlier story, but couldn't make out the images well enough and knew that Rob wasn't hanged (which is how the middle image looked to me) which threw me.

    Come to Blacksburg and see what the Hokie Pokie is really all about

    It's all symbolic. The body is hanging from the bridge between the two towers of The Twins

    But if you actually look at the Twins, the distance and height of the bridge much different.

    Also, if you look closely - the lion has a fish in its mouth, which is the sigil for House Tully, Catelyn Stark's family's house.

    I think the man on the right symbolizes the Bolton's, whose sigil is the flayed man, but I guess they can't use that in a depiction of an actual Bolton.

    Is this a safe place to comment? I need to make sure Bran isn't going to pop up randomly and weird everyone out.

    I think Gendry and Arya end up hooking up.

    There. That's my contribution.

    Tyrod did it Mikey, Tyrod did it!!

    is she even legal now ?

    She turned 22 today (the actress at least)

    22, wow she looks way younger

    I'm pretty sure ~8 years have past within the story so whatever age she was in the story S1 plus 8ish

    I don't think they operate under any kind of consent law in Westeros.

    If so, Walter Frey and Craster wouldn't be allowed within 250' of a Chuck E Cheese.

    Tyrod did it Mikey, Tyrod did it!!

    Somehow I just never thought of Arya as marriage material.

    So, she's either the "Fuck" or "Kill" option for you. I gotta say, if it's the latter, good luck with that.

    If you're not sure if my comment warrants a "/s", it probably does.

    No, that's not the meaning at all I was shooting for. She's much too young during most of this series and far too belligerent to be thinking about marriage yet. Her purpose in life is pointing more to ending lives than making lives at this point in the story.

    BINGO!!!! this episode is all about doing the deed

    Called it

    Tyrod did it Mikey, Tyrod did it!!

    Anyone else notice that Mac from It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia was one of the Greyjoy's that got killed by Theon and crew? He confirmed it on Instagram today.

    Now I'm just thinking of all the IASIP characters in GoT.

    Dennis calls Cersei a bird or a 'goddamn bitch' and immediately gets killed for it. Charlie ties up Tyrion and claims he caught another leprechaun, then rides Drogon since he knows Dragons don't eat people, Dee gets swarmed by wights as Frank leaves her behind to save himself. Cricket finds out he's been living with the army of the dead the whole time ("I guess they thought I looked scarred and dead enough that I was one of them. Much nicer than the dogs"). Frank, always packing his piece, shoots the Night King.

    Here lies It's a Stroman Jersey I Swear, surpassed in life by no one because he intercepted it.

    I thought the Bran/Jamie stare down at the end was perfect

    "Oh that time I paralyzed you? It was just a prank bro. Please don't do some fucked up worg shit to me."

    "For those who have passed, for those to come, reach for excellence."

    The best I have seen so far is Jaime looking at Bran in the wheelchair and saying "Need a push?" and Bran asking back "Yeah, need a hand?"

    I still don't understand it, but Bran could always pull a Hold-the-Door on Jaime right?

    Come to Blacksburg and see what the Hokie Pokie is really all about

    I really believe that Dany is going to demand that Sansa bend the knee and when she doesn't Dany is going to try to execute her and Jon is going to step in to save her. It seemed that Dany made a veiled threat when she was talking about how Sansa treated her when they met.

    "Sooner or later, if man is ever to be worthy of his destiny, we must fill our heart with tolerance."
    -Stan Lee

    "Never half-ass two things. Whole-ass one thing."
    -Ron Swanson

    "11-0, bro"
    -Hunter Carpenter (probably)

    The actor that plays Beric said in an interview the other day a quote to the effect that people are going to be really surprised by how the show ends and it will likely be a finale that people discuss for a long long time

    That's not always a good thing. However, I definitely hope it is. I have faith in GRRM and the showrunners, but there's always a level of fear with shows with this much investment from the fans.

    Yes, I thought for a moment that the conversation could go a long time even if the ending sucks.

    But I think GRRM and the showrunners have earned my trust to this point, so I don't think they will botch the landing, even though it's basically impossible to please everyone

    Along those lines, the actress who plays Brienne said that after the finale, fans will need therapy.

    "I think just the show ending is going to send all of the world into professional help... I think it's going to make me incredibly emotional."

    Now finish up them taters; I'm gonna go fondle my sweaters.

    It's hard to tell if she means that as in needing therapy because of what happens, or simply that fans will be so upset its over.

    I think the latter.. that people will be emotional over the series wrapping up.

    I read it differently.

    "The actress was on the red carpet for her new film Welcome to Marwen, and Gwendoline told E! News that fans are "going to need therapy" once they actually see the season eight finale.

    Asked if that meant "someone dies", Gwendoline coyly responded: "I think just the show ending is going to send all of the world into professional help"

    Now finish up them taters; I'm gonna go fondle my sweaters.

    "just the show ending" = "no further episodes of the show produced, story completed, no more anticipating the next episode or speculating about the next season" will make people so sad they'll need therapy.

    It's going to be a reveal where they have been on the island from LOST the whole time, and those two dudes have been controlling the entire thing and Bran/Night King is actually Locke.

    This would be the top 10 ending of any show ever. Make epic series, get fans fully invested, close up a series that had one of the worst endings of all time 8 years later.

    (add if applicable) /s

    Some random thoughts:

    Have we seen the last of Ellaria Sand?

    What was the weapon that Arya asked Gendry to make? Looked like some sort of lax stick with a dragonglass projectile?

    .

    .
    .and Whit puts on his batting gloves and steps up to the plate....

    Have we seen the last of Ellaria Sand?

    With how badly the show treated the entire Dorne storyline, I hope so.

    What's wrong with the Dorne storyline? I'm not a book reader, so I thought it was fine.

    Twitter me

    It was significantly stripped down from the books to show, which in and of itself is understandable because of TV limitations.

    Its not so much that they took a lot of that story out, its that the parts they decided to keep were just kinda...stupid?

    I mean they make the Prince look like a clueless, weak moron, when in the book he has several plots going behind the scenes that involved Dany and "other" Targaryens. He may still prove to be those things when all is said and done book wise, but it seems unlikely he will just get punked by Ellaria so easily.

    His daughter is much more heavily involved in some dealings, and the main bodyguard (the large black guy) has a LOT more to work with.

    The Sandsnakes are awesome in the book and not nearly as cookie cutter as they made those characters for the show.

    Take away everything about Dorne and the only change is finding another way to kill Myrcella, who had no role in the series anyway. It was a completely unnecessary and sloppy side story for the TV series other than they wanted to have the Mountain v Viper scene.

    Joffrey, Cersei, Ilyn Payne, the Hound, Jeff Jagodzinski, Paul Johnson, Pat Narduzzi.

    Take away everything about Dorne and the only change is finding another way to kill Myrcella

    Someone had to mortally wound the mountain so badly that only qyburn could bring him back, but, I guess they could've found another character to do that.

    I didn't find it at all sloppy. I understand why book readers would be annoyed, but I don't think there was a problem with script otherwise.

    Twitter me

    Someone had to mortally wound the mountain so badly that only qyburn could bring him back, but, I guess they could've found another character to do that.

    Why though? He was a hulking butcher before and he turned into an... undead hulking butcher? I guess I don't see much value in his transformation either other than adding a little bit to the undead/mystical/fantasy element of things.

    Joffrey, Cersei, Ilyn Payne, the Hound, Jeff Jagodzinski, Paul Johnson, Pat Narduzzi.

    There are a couple angles on this. In the books, there are a lot more characters from Dorne and a much larger storyline. I acknowledge it's too much to do in the show, because you could have added an entire season's worth of episodes just to deal with Dorne.

    That aside, the problem I have is with the half-assed way they tried to incorporate the Dorne storyline and the horrible writing. It's the only part of the entire GoT series that I truly dislike. The inclusion of Oberyn Martell was actually really good, and I loved the Mountain vs. Red Viper, because that's a pivotal moment in the story. After that, everything about Dorne was just crammed in. Terrible lines ("you want a good girl, but you need a bad p*ssy" goes down in the hall of fame of worst lines ever, with the worst delivery ever) and unbelievable plot elements (Areo Hotah, one of the most feared warriors in the world and a giant of a man, goes down from a single dagger in the shoulder, even if poisoned?), and basically how flat the Sand Snakes were throughout. In the books, they are feared warriors, yet Euron offs two of them with no trouble.

    The entire involvement of Dorne consists of the Mountain being resurrected (cool, sure, whatever) and Myrcella dying. One could argue that Myrcella is irrelevant (she really is) but her death is necessary to end the line of succession of Robert's "children" to allow Cersei to accede to the throne. But truly, this whole thing could have been cleanly short-circuited if the gift that Cersei received (the necklace in the mouth of a viper) was the signal that Myrcella was dead. It would still have to be resolved why Cersei wouldn't send the Lannister army to Dorne, but that could be as easy as (1) no one has ever conquered Dorne, not even Aegon the Conqueror so it's dumb and (2) Cersei is a power-hungry, stone-cold bitch and now the Iron Throne is hers.

    Great points. Areo Hotah is nonexistent in the show, I had already forgot that he was in it.

    Tyrod did it Mikey, Tyrod did it!!

    the Mountain being resurrected (cool, sure, whatever)

    I'm hoping this is somewhat relevant in the story. I don't think he was resurrected for no reason. Maybe his undead skills will help him beat the Night King.

    Myrcella dying. One could argue that Myrcella is irrelevant (she really is) but her death is necessary to end the line of succession of Robert's "children" to allow Cersei to accede to the throne.

    She's also a vehicle to show how much Cersei cares about her children.

    Twitter me

    Really hope Bran wargs into the mountain and fucks shit up

    Here lies It's a Stroman Jersey I Swear, surpassed in life by no one because he intercepted it.

    Maybe his undead skills will help him beat the Night King.

    Or, in what would be an even cooler development, the Night King commands him to turn around and crush Cersei's throat, and he can't help but obey.

    If you're not sure if my comment warrants a "/s", it probably does.

    Now finish up them taters; I'm gonna go fondle my sweaters.

    I can't find the article, but I believe I read an interview last year where the actress confirmed that her character basically has an off screen death and won't be seen again

    #38-0

    Yeah, unless someone gets into that dungeon somehow and let's her go, she gone.

    Amateur superstar and idiot extraordinaire.

    Like Bronn. He had teh thing with her daughter that is also there and he knows how to stop the potion.

    Correy

    Alright, what about the dead dragon? They are making plans to defend Winterfell and we aren't let in on the discussion of what to do about the zombie dragon. So are Jon and Dany headed out on the dragons and have some plan to kill the zombie dragon which is the implication towards the end? We aren't let in on that discussion, we just get to see Tyrion and the gang get drunk instead?
    I guess it makes for better drama, but it's like having an elephant in the room with you and not talking about it.

    On the other hand, sure liked that song at the end, tried to catch the name and artist in the credits but missed it. Have to replay it and catch it in those fast moving credits.

    The LewDew, Professional Golf Bum

    I think Arya's spear will be used for that, similar to how the knight king killed the dragon.

    Correy

    So why didn't any of the escaped knights watch or wildlings mention the ice dragon?
    Arya just takes whatever the hell she wants now. Feels weird when thinking about her as she was first in the show.

    Wet stuff on the red stuff.

    Join us in the Key Players Club

    I had to google but she's old enough to be a college graduate.

    Recruit Prosim

    Yea she is 22 in real world, but watching from the beginning it's still weird.

    Wet stuff on the red stuff.

    Join us in the Key Players Club

    HBO sent out this tweet before the show aired in the UK definitively to act as a reminder for her age.

    the crypts are safe

    the crypts are safe

    the crypts are safest place to be

    So obviously everyone in the crypts is fucked.

    stick it in, stick it in, stick it in!

    I have a feeling that the NIght King is going to resurrect all of the dead Starks in the crypts, which would really be something...

    ...which also jives which the idea that maybe the Night King is a Stark himself, as we know he was one of the First Men prior to being turned, and that the Starks are related to the First Men.

    Crypts will extremely relevant, beyond just a place to hang out/stay safe. They have their own scene in the intro. I think these three things are related:

    • The saying "There must always be a start in Winterfell"
    • The fact that Uncle Benjin was never turned into full White Walker
    • Something special about the cripts

    Maybe the Night King will try to rise the dead starks, but they'll rebel against him, or something like that. We shall see.

    Twitter me

    Considering the dead are there. Why would they go to where the dead are with a dude that can reanimate the dead coming to town?

    Correy

    seems that way right?

    in the books, and I think somewhere in the TV series, Winterfell is mentioned as having old magic in its walls, imbued when Bran the Builder constructed the castle. Question is whether that residual magic is going to be any use against the Night King's powers.

    If you didn't tear up just a bit when Brienne got knighted, you have no soul.

    A few thoughts.

    I used to like Danny but no so much anymore. She's on a power trip and is going down the same path as her father. Geez, get over yourself lady, you have White Walkers breathing down your neck.

    Arya has become a straight up badass. If you asked me back in season 6 it wouldn't have bothered me if she got offed in Braavos but now I want to see her inflict some pain and live happily ever after with Gendry.

    Jaime Lannister is the ultimate feel good story. Nothing would please me more to see him off Cersei after he and Brianne of Tarth make it Facebook official.

    I want to hang with the Hound and do rails.

    Tyrod did it Mikey, Tyrod did it!!

    The Hound is such a good anti-hero

    Recruit Prosim

    Jaime Lannister is the ultimate feel good story

    Yeah...about that. Any of those feel good stories we got tonight probably don't have a nice pleasant follow up next week.

    Y'all are too quick to fall for this red herring drama with Dany. They just needed something to add a little tension to these first two episodes. I figured this would be even less of an issue from viewers after tonight's episode where she took the Aegon news pretty damn well for someone who just found out her entire life's mission is no longer clear because her nephew is the actual heir to the Iron Throne because of a patriarchal succession system.

    Also Aerys was probably a bad guy anyway, but it's much less likely that he just has "something naturally inherent inside him that made him crazy as hell" that Dany would also have as many have speculated (but ignore that Rhaegar was apparently a great guy, and that Dany for 6+ seasons has been incredible), and much more likely that Bloodraven/Bran (nonlinear time and all) made the Mad King go full on crazy with an instruction gone wrong similar to Hodor.

    Yeah, you'd think she'd consider the following when deciding whether to be concerned about a challenge to the throne from Jon.
    a) Jon constantly turns down leadership positions, doesn't seek them out
    b) Jon doesn't care about titles just about protecting the people
    c) Jon already pledged loyalty to Dany
    d) Jon loves Dany

    He would have to have a really big personality shift to try and claim the Iron Throne over Dany, despite having a legit claim. And it's not like it would be breaking tradition for him to renounce his claim. There's plenty of precedent in GOT of heirs renouncing their claim to the throne.

    and regarding Aerys.. yes it's a strong theory that the Mad King's obsession with wildfire was spurred by a psychi message from Bloodraven (or even Bran) that the 7 kingdoms would need to defeat the white walkers with fire.

    That damn ending.

    Next week's episode is going to be a crazy one.

    In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.

    So hear me out, but I'm thinking that maybe hanging out in the crypts, where a bunch of Starks are buried is a bad idea...Ya know, seeing as how the White Walkers have a special talent of raising people from the dead as mindless soldiers...

    There have been a lot of fan theories about exactly this. However, it's pretty clear from the lore that the Night King can't resurrect the Kings of Winter. The Others are said to hate iron, and Ned Stark talks of the crypts by saying that the iron swords on the laps of all in the crypts are to keep restless spirits in their place.

    The Starks of old knew what the White Walkers could do, and safeguarded themselves against it. What once was defensive strategy is now just tradition.

    There are alternate theories that the Kings of Winter will rise to defend Winterfell during the battle, but I think that's a little too on-the-nose in terms of copying the undead army in Lord of the Rings.

    I had forgotten this lore from the books. It feels like so long ago since I read them and my memories get twisted with watching the show. Leg.

    I knew the crypts were a bad idea! Even if it took the show spitting on the lore of the books.

    The wights coming back almost looked like maesters to me. At least one of them had the linked chains on. They make a point of showing the characters standing by specific Stark crypts and nothing is coming out of those

    Interesting. I had thought the Stark crypts were only for the Starks, so it's surprising to me that others such as maesters would be buried down there

    There's been a lot of Starks, it's not unreasonable to think one or more of them were maesters at some point in history of Winterfell. I thought they were way too well preserved but watching the 'Behind the Thrones' they went into how they researched ancient corpses to develop the makeup and effects, and ultimately someone buried for 4,000 years can still be remarkably preserved, even if they weren't mummified.

    Can't help but think Brienne has reached the end of her story, especially after such an emotional high. She's got to be a goner next episode. Tormund also made me laugh obnoxiously multiple times.

    Another white bronco? The first one didn't go too far.

    Methinks that she has to watch Jaime die, and proceeds to be heartbroken.

    Twitter me

    its been 2 episodes of feel goods, I think a lot of folks are about to reach the end of their story. I think Brienne, Arya, Jorah and the Hound are all goners next episode. My guess.

    "I'm too drunk to taste this chicken" - Colonel Sanders via Ricky Bobby

    Bran is a goner. Never should have told Tyrion his life story

    Oh, and a little much on the Sam and Edd die when they zoom in on Jon after Edd says "last one alive burns the rest". Plus, only Sam and Bran know that John is a Targ, so it only makes sense to kill those two off, because of course GRRM would do that.

    Would not be surprised to see Jamie killed while defending Bran.

    In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.

    Brenne is sort of the opposite of Cersey IMO. Cersey is evil and she always screws something up. Every time she executes a plan something negative happens to her. Brienne OTOH is a good person but she also always screws something up or fails in some way. I think the only thing she did right was rescue Sansa and Theon after they escaped on their own. She wasn't there to see the light in the tower though. So we now know she is supposed to protect the left flank.

    Correy

    I feel like the first two episodes could have been condensed into one boring episode instead of two. The highlight of both episodes was Tormund talking about giant breast feeding and face chugging milk liquor. I'm so desperate for literally anything to happen that is not cheesy reunions and waterfall makeouts. The Night King is on their doorstep and I feel like i'm watching Twilight not Game of Thrones.

    Bring on the battle.

    This whole show has been one long soap opera with a few moments of high budget CGI battles mixed in. Literally 75% of the entire show is people just long drawn out dialogue making the plot advance at a snails pace. But because of things like the Red Wedding, Battle of the Bastards, Hardhome, etc, its all forgiven. Of course they were going to milk that soap opera effect for all it was worth before the final battles begin.

    In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.

    The reason GoT is so good is because of the drama between battles, not in spite of it. Do just hate-watch anything that's not a battle?

    Oh no, I never said I hated it. But my wife and I rewatched from the start before the final season, and we both made a remark that the show is totally a late night soap opera. It has something for pretty much anyone who could be watching, which is why it is so popular. I actually appreciate how they were able to weave the soap genre together with the action/scifi genre so well.

    In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.

    No, the reason GoT WAS so good was the immersion not the drama. The world was brutal, unforgiving and deadly. Every week was an hour long struggle for either survival or conquest. Sure relationships formed and characters developed and there was drama, but it always felt secondary to the struggle.

    I think the turning point was the Red Wedding Episode. Ever since then the writers have been chasing that next big bang. The format has become tension build, more building, more building, more building, RELEASE. While the climax that we are given has typically been nice, I feel like the plot development and the episode to episode quality has tanked. Most of last season was boring, so far this season has been excruciatingly boring.

    you should try reading the books if you think the show moves slowly

    See i disagree. He created so many different plot lines for you to get caught up in that i never found myself thinking "alright get to the point already". Everything moved pretty fluidly and seemed to have a purpose, unlike the show, which i think concentrates a little too much on crowd pleasing moments that don't contribute to the story.

    15 Straight

    I have read the books. I agree with this.

    Except for the Kingsmoot.

    Well you're about to get the longest uninterrupted battle scene in history (as we've been told) next week. I would imagine shit will be popping off for at least the next two episodes and probably the next 4.

    As much as I agree that the story hasn't progressed much the last two episodes, when everyone starts dying I think we will look back on these two episodes full of reunions and special (potentially final) moments between friends and family and wish we could go back to that time haha.

    I doubt we could have condensed these two episodes. They might not have had to have been an hour a piece, but there was so much that needed to be conveyed. You have characters with lots of history meeting up, some for the first time in years. It also serves to make the death of characters in the battle much more heart wrenching. Gendry or Arya dying wouldn't be as impactful if they didn't reunite. Same with Jaime and Briene.

    You have characters with lots of history meeting up, some for the first time in years

    But not really, because we had the reunite episode when they brought the white-walker to Cersie. There has probably been more real time elapsed between that episode and this one than time in the story line. Arya, Sansa, and Bran are really the only ones that have been out of the loop.

    Come to Blacksburg and see what the Hokie Pokie is really all about

    I thought I read somewhere that this entire story arc was supposed to take part over the span of a few months, but they've had to make adjustments for the way the show is made and produced. Is that not correct?

    In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.

    That is what I thought as well, felt like a few months since the Cersei/WW episode so all of the characters except Ned's kids have all reunited recently, so all the grab ass that has been going on this season feels like rehash and I wish it would have been condensed into one 80 min episode to start the season.

    I am not saying they had to dive right into the battle, but have some scheming and some more time put toward any plots individual characters may be working behind the fight against the Night King. You know Sansa, Danny, Cersei, and Varys are all thinking about how to benefit themselves when the battle is over. If they would have hinted more into that I think it would have added a thick undercurrent to the story so far.

    Come to Blacksburg and see what the Hokie Pokie is really all about

    I appreciated last night because of the way they approached it as 'how would you act if you knew you were going to die tomorrow'. Yeah, it might have been long and drawn out, but most of the characters we saw last night likely die next week, and it was good to kind of finalize their arcs and bring some stories to a close before that happens.

    My question now is... do they kill the Night King next week, or do they continue their match south? I could see the story going both ways, logically playing into the arc that has been set up from the beginning.

    In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.

    My guess is that they more or less lose the battle of Winterfell in ep3, then in ep4 they pull off a last ditch, suicide-type mission to kill the Night King with a smaller group. Then the last two episodes account for the the remaining loose ties with Cersei, Golden Company, future of Westeros.

    This is assuming we don't get the Night King wins, humanity was the problem all along ending.

    I think there still needs to be a Dany/Jon vs Cerci battle for Kings Landing. This whole series has been building towards 2 events - The war with the Night King, and Cerci's Last Stand. At one point, I thought they could coincide, but now it looks like it will be one and then the other.

    In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.

    My roommate postulates:
    We don't see the Night King or the dead dragon at the end of ep2. Just his henchman and a large army of undead. Therefore he believes the Night King is actually headed to Kings Landing to scorch the Golden Company as well as the Kings guard raising a larger army with which to March North on Winterfell

    I don't follow as detailed as he does or many on here so I'm wondering the thoughts here and how plausible this may be.

    I would assume if this come to fruition, somehow Cersei and the mountain escape and flee North for safety where a whooooole lot of weird mojo and plotlines would intersect in a manner not many seem to be suspecting?

    EDIT: Re-posted further down outside the sub thread

    You can drastically increase your knowledge of the show/books in a few youtube videos if you can commit to watching "Alt Shift X" Youtube channel breakdowns after each episode. As someone who has been watching live for like 7 years, it's really helpful because he brings up all the callbacks and things that are very easy to forget over years and years.

    He has lots of explanations of lore and theories as well. In my opinion, he is the premier source of GOT information and breakdowns.

    Here is the channel for anyone interested.

    I wish I had time to really dig into that. I usually just let my roomate exclaim something of importance and have him briefly explain it to me during lulls in the action

    The second episode I honestly feel was the best written dialogue since the show continued from where the books stopped.

    Ghost just low-key showing up in the background...

    After all is said and done, Ghost will be the last one standing and is going to have the burn the rest of the bodies. He will end up on the Iron Throne, and thus, The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe universe will have begun

    In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.

    That was a hand-job of an episode. Some feel good moment, but not what you want from GoT. I agree that they should have combined first two into a longer episode to satisfy the long wait between seasons and left more episodes for wrapping up the show. You could sum up everything so far as Ep 1: Everyone arrives at Winterfell, Jon finds out, Cersie hires an army for backstabbing. Ep 2. They plan for battle, Arya gets laid, Jon tells Danny. Done. Not much else moved. They even started to move some plot lines and then interrupted them (Danny and Sansa, Danny and Jon)!

    Come to Blacksburg and see what the Hokie Pokie is really all about

    When do Jon and Sansa get married, unifying the south an the north?

    Correy

    That was a hand-job of an episode

    Would you call it "The Stranger", then?

    If you're not sure if my comment warrants a "/s", it probably does.

    I don't think we see the dead Starks in the crypts rise and fight (at least not for the Night King anyway), for several reasons.

    1) Have we ever actually seen the Night King raise something dead that wasn't killed directly by a White Walker/a wight under his thrall? I'm not saying he can't, but we don't know if he can either. To this point everything we've seen come back to life was killed directly by something under his control.

    2) Considering all of the character building that has been done about the Stark family, their preparedness, and knowing where the true threat lie for thousands of years, it would be the most un-Stark thing ever for them to leave a handy undead army available directly below Winterfell, not to mention one that would be emotionally devastating to see for any Stark defending the castle in particular.

    If they knew that the NK could raise anything dead, one would assume they would have followed a tradition of burning the bodies of the dead. Perhaps the Starks know something else, that these spirits can rise to defend Winterfell. I would just find it hard to believe they would ignore the possibility that the NK would ever reach Winterfell and use the Kings of Winter against them. That's like the entire purpose of the House's existence.

    See VTGM's post above. It's believed that the Starks of old knew, and that knowledge has just become tradition.

    If you're not sure if my comment warrants a "/s", it probably does.

    Most people who I've seen discuss theories of the Starks rising from the dead do not have them fighting alongside the Night King. They point to Benjen's weird half-transformation into a wight/white walker but retaining his humanity and decision making, and the fact that Starks likely share White Walker ancestry in their bloodline. This would (theoretically) allow them to resist the Night King's control, perhaps, with Benjen as the example to defend this possible truth.

    I don't have an opinion on whether that happens or not, but most of the theories I've seen surrounding that have them fighting alongside the living.

    Moved this from a sub-thread as I am really interested in others thoughts.

    My roommate postulates:
    We don't see the Night King or the dead dragon at the end of ep2. Just his henchman and a large army of undead. Therefore he believes the Night King is actually headed to Kings Landing to scorch the Golden Company as well as the Kings guard raising a larger army with which to March North on Winterfell

    I don't follow as detailed as he does or many on here so I'm wondering the thoughts here and how plausible this may be.

    I would assume if this come to fruition, somehow Cersei and the mountain escape and flee North for safety where a whooooole lot of weird mojo and plotlines would intersect in a manner not many seem to be suspecting?

    Yeah, probably does. Then takes credit. And I ignorantly give it to him...

    After reading...sounds verbatim. My roomate is plagiarizing

    I think this has to be what happens. I just don't think there's enough time in the series for there to be a battle at winterfell and then another battle at kings landing between Cersei and the survivors. I think this this way, we also get past the issue of "who sits on the iron throne and takes kings landing?" because there isn't going to be a King's Landing after the Night King gets there. Also a strong possibility he's not able to raise the people of Kings Landing afterwards because i could see Cersei burning it to the ground with wildfire when she realizes what her fate is.

    15 Straight

    I don't see it from a logical perspective. He'd have to go through basically every major city in Westeros to get to Kings Landing, that'd be a lot of skipping through places even with a dragon.

    (add if applicable) /s

    As for the episode itself, I found it to have several satisfying payoffs and provide some relatively clear hints (as much as GoT does, at least) as to who bites it during the Battle of Winterfell. Would love to hear everyone else's guesses for episode 3 but here are mine:

    1) Theon - I would bet my house on him dying protecting Bran. His entire redemption arc has been completed with not only rescuing his sister, but also the way in which he was welcomed back by Sansa. His story has come to an end and he will go out fighting, not as a Reek.

    2) Bran - I have the distinct feeling that he and the NIght King are meant to cancel out each other in some way. I will also say that if he dies, that likely means the NK is gone too.

    3) Brienne/Jaime - One of these two is going to go, but not both I think. Again, Brienne's arc has come full circle at this point. Becoming the first female knight ever in Westeros and realizing she had the admiration (and love/respect) of Jaime is the high point. One of these two will watch the other die, hence the plot point to have him fighting alongside her, and I lean towards it being her.

    4) Beric - I think this is another slam dunk. He is ready to die one would imagine, and his comment about this being the Lord of Lights moment. I see him sacrificing himself to do something key because of his faith in that.

    5) Tormund - I will be sad to see him go, but I can imagine it surrounded by a pile of wights and a WW or two.

    6) Dolorous Edd - not really needed as a character anymore, but would still pack emotional punch. Too much foreshadowing in that scene with Jon and Sam.

    7) Gendry

    8) Podrick

    9) Edit - forgot to add Grey Worm. His character is what it is, and after that last kiss and fleeting moments of happiness talking about the future with Missendei, I don't see him surviving the battle.

    I would add Jorah and Davos. I think there is room for them in a world after the Night King, but it just feels that given their age and character arcs that they are due for their heroic exits this season.

    Jorah made peace with his house, likely ending his character arc.

    Hokies United l Ut Prosim

    Agreed on Jorah. Although it won't happen until he takes out a few Walkers. Having him get Heartsbane is pointless unless he does something of importance with it.

    I also have Greyworm near the top of my "most likely to die" list.

    Yeah I meant to add him there. I think it was set up for him to go whupping some ass with his Unsullied

    Zero percent chance Jon, Dany, Arya, and Sansa all survive this battle

    15 Straight

    I don't think all 4 of them survive the season, but I could see them surviving the battle.

    I agree with this. If they're going to split it into either multiple battles (episodes) or 2 separate wars (white walkers, iron throne) I think all 4 of those go towards the very end of the season.

    (add if applicable) /s

    True I could also see them doing something where they make it seem like Arya has died, but she's actually just stolen someone else's face and is still alive. I just don't see them having the biggest battle in the whole series without one of our really main characters dying.

    15 Straight

    The most likely to me would be Sansa if it happens during the battle. I have trouble seeing either Jon or Dany dying at least until the whole "Which Targaryen wants the throne?" tension is resolved or at least addressed in full. But I do think one of both of them die by the end of the season.

    Yea see i think thats going to be their quick way to dissolve that tension is by having one of them die.

    15 Straight

    Sansa is probably number one on my list of characters most likely to survive to the end of the series.

    I think the Mormont lady is more likely to die in the battle than Jorah. This would allow Dany/Jon/Sansa/whoever to pardon Jorah and give him back his lordship. He also was given a named sword which is probably a big deal. This is also all pending on if the living wins.

    2) Bran himself said the NK's goal is to kill him to remove all memory of the world. If Bran dies, the NK wins unless the memories are passed to someone else?

    Bran had a little storytime session with Tyrion this episode, sooooo....

    In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.

    If Tyrion ended up as the Three-Eyed Raven, that would be incredible. Considering his love of history...

    We already know that Bran/TER doesn't reveal everything though. The shout out "The things we do for love" line was fantastic. I don't think he was mad at Jaime because he knew he needed for those events to occur as they did to put him where he is now. He seems to know everything that has happened and why, perhaps not exactly what WILL happen.

    The Night King wants to get him to erase man's memory/history. But I get the sense that's not the whole story. It feels like the NK fears Bran somewhat, or at the very least knows he is a threat to him beyond just the memories. Considering Bran know how he was created/how the Starks dealt with him/their plans moving forward, I think its quite possible he is aware of exactly what he needs to do, and it was the easiest explanation to the war counsel to suggest leaving himself as bait to accomplish that.

    Maybe he needs bran to prevent himself from becoming the night king?

    Recruit Prosim

    Good stuff AZ, but you really think Jaime could die? He has a lot of unresolved stuff with Cersei still.

    I agree but it seems highly likely that Brienne is donezo.

    Joffrey, Cersei, Ilyn Payne, the Hound, Jeff Jagodzinski, Paul Johnson, Pat Narduzzi.

    I want Jamie to kill Cersei.

    Hokies United l Ut Prosim

    They wasted a lot of the limited dragon glass on the parapets of Winterfell.

    Wet stuff on the red stuff.

    Join us in the Key Players Club

    I got the impression they could make as much as they needed considering they had two grown dragons to help provide it.

    Everybody was picking up a dragonglass weapon or wielding a bow and some dragonglass arrows, even the guys that didn't know how to fight

    No this is what they mined below Dragonstone island. The dragons don't actually make it.

    Wet stuff on the red stuff.

    Join us in the Key Players Club

    If they survive, then it should be easy enough to remove it from the walls and the pikes to reattach to other weapons.

    As for it being mined below Dragonstone, is there anything definitive that says the dragons don't have a hand in making it? Afterall, there were live ones there for quite a long time after the Conquest.

    It was there long before the dragons, the night king was created with a piece.

    Wet stuff on the red stuff.

    Join us in the Key Players Club

    It's probably there to thin out the wights that try to climb the walls at some point. So probably not really a waste if 1/4 to 1/2 die getting over.

    They were using it for the Cheval de frise in the trenches outside which made a lot of sense. But the random spots on the castle seemed odd. Unless they just ran out of time to make weapons?

    Wet stuff on the red stuff.

    Join us in the Key Players Club

    I assume there are lots of leftover shards after making weapons, so that's probably what they stuck to the battlements.

    stick it in, stick it in, stick it in!

    Probably TV constraints. I would assume you'd have more closer together if you were using it as a defensive mechanism, but they had the longest battle sequence ever to film.

    Now finish up them taters; I'm gonna go fondle my sweaters.

    I hope they do one of these after next episode

    It would look more like

    Tyrod did it Mikey, Tyrod did it!!

    Perhaps it's time to bring back the Red Witch and the magic of The Lord of Light to fight the magic of the Night King. If I were writing the plot that would be a last resort to save mankind after all else fails. Of course, someone with royal blood would need to survive to provide her with the ingredients for her magic.

    The Lord of Light will come up this episode, I have a feeling

    Even feelings need a good shaving once in awhile...

    VHokie

    That Dothraki charge was lit!

    Now finish up them taters; I'm gonna go fondle my sweaters.

    Several coworkers and I will be wearing all black tomorrow in morning of the main characters that will die tonight.

    Valar morghulis.

    If you're not sure if my comment warrants a "/s", it probably does.

    Well, guess you can keep your funeral clothes clean

    Now finish up them taters; I'm gonna go fondle my sweaters.

    I feel like we will lose Tormund tonight and I'm just not ready for it. Take everyone else.

    Another white bronco? The first one didn't go too far.

    Same here. I might miss him the most of all

    Well uhhhhh. That didn't go as expected. Way too many people survived. And fairly anticlimactic despite how much I love badass Arya

    Here lies It's a Stroman Jersey I Swear, surpassed in life by no one because he intercepted it.

    They lost like 10,000 people.

    Wet stuff on the red stuff.

    Join us in the Key Players Club

    Exactly. And only like 4-5 Named characters died. Some of them pretty minor

    Here lies It's a Stroman Jersey I Swear, surpassed in life by no one because he intercepted it.

    Red Witch, Theon, fire sword guy, Lady Mormont, last Night Watch, Jorah, can't verify Sam lived.

    Wet stuff on the red stuff.

    Join us in the Key Players Club

    Theon's death hurt the most. That dude went through some shit and I wish he could've got a good lick in on the NK.

    Sam will live.

    Tyrod did it Mikey, Tyrod did it!!

    When your response to "some of [the characters who died were] pretty minor" is to cite two characters whose names you don't use, it might not be a great argument.

    Joffrey, Cersei, Ilyn Payne, the Hound, Jeff Jagodzinski, Paul Johnson, Pat Narduzzi.

    Because I'm awful with names I had to look up Jorah and the kid lady's name too.

    Wet stuff on the red stuff.

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    Fair enough but I still wouldn't call any of them beyond Theon and Jorah major characters. And even those two are second tier major characters.

    Joffrey, Cersei, Ilyn Payne, the Hound, Jeff Jagodzinski, Paul Johnson, Pat Narduzzi.

    No way in hell Sam should have survived that.

    Sam is here to write all of this into the history books. In my opinion he's the safest character out there.

    No Sam has to die before the story is over so no one can finish the books, that way GRRM doesn't need a real ending.

    George is just trolling fan theories on reddit and cherry picking the best bits to finish the books. Give it a few years after the series is over, hype it as the TRUE ending and he'll still make a killing. They did say after the show that they've known for 3 years that Arya was the one to ice the Night King, so that's definitely canon.

    I did catch the after show thing.

    I don't know. I may not buy the next books, just so the next big author sees the sales drop, and decides not to lollygag on finishing their series,

    If you're not sure if my comment warrants a "/s", it probably does.

    The North (70% have been ruled out - death) @ Kings Landing. Game 7. LFG.

    Another white bronco? The first one didn't go too far.

    BAH GAWD THATS ARYA STARKS MUSIC

    In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.

    I'm legit sweating right now. Good episode...not the best of the entire series, but still really good. Hope they explain some shit with Bran....feels weird that the whole Night King thing would be done with no more explanation.

    Amateur superstar and idiot extraordinaire.

    I feel the same way. I want Bran to explain the first night, tell us more about the NKs origin, and fill in what led to everything.

    Melisandre's exit was also unsatisfying. Need more answers from her crew.

    I wouldn't hold my breath. I'm extremely confident we're on cruise control with a boatload of unanswered questions and plot holes.

    Joffrey, Cersei, Ilyn Payne, the Hound, Jeff Jagodzinski, Paul Johnson, Pat Narduzzi.

    Also, seems like they were too afraid to get rid of the fan favorites compared to the past.

    Another white bronco? The first one didn't go too far.

    Well they talked through all the ending stuff with GRRM so it's not clear who makes the ultimate call on those things.

    I had a feeling in the past week that less people than we expected would die. There was so much build up, but that thought wasn't based on anything other than my unfounded intuition.

    They are just buttering you up. They didn't kill any one major just so they can all die of dysentery on the way to kings landing. It's the Oregon Trail ending.

    LOL, still 3 episodes left to break some hearts.

    Tyrod did it Mikey, Tyrod did it!!

    Yeah I think we are far from safe. Jaime surviving keeps the Valonqar prophecy in play for him to be the one, Tyrion as well.

    They also have to fight the Golden company with like 10% of their army. And I THINK two dragons. I'm like 99% sure there were two dragons in one of the preview scenes that was like 1 second long. I highly doubt Rhaegal died from just crashing into the ground.

    Edit: According to screenshots from reddit Ghost and Rhaegal survived.

    How the fuck did Ghost survive? He rode out with the Dothraki and I didn't see him since. I just assumed everyone but Jorah died in that first wave

    You could see some Dothraki running back, also ghost isnt stupid, he's made it thislong.

    Ghost survived. He is in the Ep 4 teaser.

    10% strength but they have some great close air support. Both dragon will have to lick their wounds though.

    Correy

    And... Yup, Baelish's dagger played it's massive role

    After Bran gave it to her nonetheless

    In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.

    Edit: Nevermind

    Super blue balls on the night king and white walkers. Really want some explanation on them besides just evil ice man.

    Recruit Prosim

    Did Jon show that he is impervious to fire?

    Correy

    Not sure. He looked like 5th grade me running from dodge balls.

    Tyrod did it Mikey, Tyrod did it!!

    Jon showed that he was actually impervious to being good in battle and a good general. Like seriously, he's had his ass handed to him in every battle, lol. Someone else is always the one that wins it.

    He's also actively tried to get himself killed half a dozen times. Facing Ramsay's army alone at BotB, killing extra wights/going after NK instead of getting on the dragon with everyone north of the wall, yelling at Viserion tonight, to name a few.

    I'm told I picked a hell of an episode as my first one ever to watch....

    You will see this game, this upset and this sign next on ESPN Sportscenter. Virginia Tech 31 Miami 7

    My wife isn't into fantasy and works nights anyways, so I would watch while she was at work and she had a habit of coming home right in the most lewd scene, wondering what the hell is wrong with me for watching an imp in a room full of hookers. This was the first time she sat down with me from start to finish. She fell asleep. Battle of frickin' Winterfell and she's snoring.

    I just told a close friend I thought the show seemed "alright" and I pretty sure I could hear him scream in anger here in Galax all the way from Denver.

    You will see this game, this upset and this sign next on ESPN Sportscenter. Virginia Tech 31 Miami 7

    Are you serious?

    /s

    So what was the point in bringing Jon back to life if he didn't really play a role in the NK's demise?

    Unless you count bringing most everyone together I guess.

    *I guess I should have clarified - why did the Lord of Light bring Jon back, not why did the writers

    stick it in, stick it in, stick it in!

    You'll see...

    There's still a major battle for the throne.

    Tyrod did it Mikey, Tyrod did it!!

    What does that have to do with the Lord of light though?

    stick it in, stick it in, stick it in!

    This was the purpose of the Lord of Light. He united everyone and brought them together to face the Night King. I see people theorizing about the Iron Throne, but it feels like they closed the Lord of Light chapter with the NK death and Melisandre and Beric's goal to keep Arya alive fulfilled.

    The Lord of Light bringing Jon back didn't necessarily mean that he was to kill the NK.

    Most importantly he kept bringing Beric back and we see why, Beric saved Arya and she destroyed the NK.

    Tyrod did it Mikey, Tyrod did it!!

    That's my point - Beric's role in bringing down the NK was made abundantly clear and then Melisandre straight up told us just for good measure why Beric was brought back. Jon seems to have been brought back for a much less direct role.

    I'm curious to see if things end up different in the books (if they're ever finished). Plus, maybe we'll get some more info in the coming episodes.

    stick it in, stick it in, stick it in!

    If Jon doesn't come back then there is no stand at winterfell. Ayra doesn't get the chance because everyone dies a lot quicker without the dragons, and the NK walks right up to Bran without Theon killing everyone.

    If Jon doesn't come back then Dany never goes to the North with her dragons, the NK doesn't kill and resurrect one of them, and the dead never break through the wall. It's explicitly stated that the wall cannot be broken by the dead alone, hence the need for the dragon.

    stick it in, stick it in, stick it in!

    I'm wondering if the NK really needed a dragon at all. Couldn't the dead just walk around the wall if the water by Eastwatch froze over?

    There is magic in the wall they can't get past until they knock it down.

    Wet stuff on the red stuff.

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    Arya was heading to Kings Landing until she heard about Jon being back in Winterfell

    If I were 15 years younger I'd let Arya beat me up.

    Tyrod did it Mikey, Tyrod did it!!

    Man that was one of the most ball busting opening scenes with the Dothraki. Seeing their lights go out one by one, Jesus.

    Man, that was a rush. It was awesome. I see some complaints about people saying it was too dark but I think that was purposeful and added to it. "The Night is dark and full of terrors". You're facing death. It's suppose to be dark and confusing. You're getting a visual feeling of what the characters are experiencing. Also, if its really that damn dark, adjust your TV settings. I upped the brightness just a tad on mine and had no trouble whatsoever following along.

    But I gotta admit though. I'm a little less excited to see what happens next. That was such a high climax that I don't think it can reach those heights again

    Damn Gendry crafts Arya this perfect dragon glass weapon and she loses it.

    Wet stuff on the red stuff.

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    Well she was just in it for the sex.

    She used it to perfection though. She was slaying WW's left and right.

    Tyrod did it Mikey, Tyrod did it!!

    If they done a little more thinking about the battle beforehand:

    Have an outer wall of fire that they light as soon as the dead arrive. Have archers shoot flaming arrows and hurl the flaming boulders into the dead as long as they can. The dragons should be raining fire on them as well. Then if any of the dead breach the fire wall have the Dothraki mow them down. If they get overwhelmed they retreat and the dragons knock out the dead and relight the wall. Do this until it's impossible and then pull back inside the second wall of fire and inside the city. When the dead start scaling the walls dump flaming tar on them. Would've liked to see the heroes pull out all the stops in this one.

    Night King would have just buried it all in snow and ice. Dude was just biding his time letting his army overwhelm the defenses, and smash the defenders so he could waltz in and stab Bran. Any time something went against this basic plan he basically snapped his fingers and put out a great counter. Dragons torching his wights and coming after his homies? Ice storm. Knocked off his undead dragon and Jon Snow, a great 1v1 fighter, chasing him down ... raise a bunch of fresh wights and start walking. Jon Snow makes it into the castle and is closing in on the Godswood.. drop that undead dragon on him. etc etc.

    The basic point was that there was never going to be a way to beat the Night King's army straight up, no matter the tactics. The only way was to bait him into thinking he has a path to victory and then strike at the last moment when he's got his eyes on the prize.

    Also we should remember these people haven't fought the undead army before. Even Jon's crew and the Night's Watch never really fought them in a pitched battle and won... they fought a controlled retreat and a smash-and-grab-and-run... And neither of those battles went all that well for the living. Tactics were very much still under development. Then there's the whole expertise thing. A great plan or tactic only works if your team can execute. So when your army is good at something you let them do what they do best rather than gambling on an alternate tactic that they're probably not going to execute at a high level and might not work anyway.

    I do think it would have been a little bit more realistic for the Dothraki to be used as a counter-attack force sweeping in. from the sides of the horde. But I question how effective they'd be in even optimal situation because a large part of their prowess is sowing confusion and fear among their enemies (wights don't care) and I was never clear on whether their weapons made of valerian steel? Because if not, they weren't going to make much headway against the wights no matter the tactics.

    Regular weapons work just fine against the wights.

    But you make a great point about tactics against the dead in general. It reminds me a lot of World War Z (the awesome book, not the mediocre movie) and the Battle of Yonkers. Wherein the best military tech in the world is useless and the armed forces get routed because it's being used against an enemy that will not react like living people would and have zero self preservation concerns. It would have been really hard to develop tactics on the fly to combat an army literally no one living has ever faced in a pitched battle.

    The wights arnt afraid of charging Dothraki. Humans are

    The wights don't give a shit about crawling into a flaming trench. Humans do

    The wights will just pour over elite Unsullied. No human army would be foolish enough to do that.

    It reminds me a lot of World War Z (the awesome book, not the mediocre movie)

    Even then, the visuals were dead on with what we saw in the WWZ movie.

    They just swarm like ants and overwhelm you with sheer volume. Doesn't matter how many you have because they're literally a rolling wave that is 2-3 creatures high and coming at an insane pace. At that point, it doesn't matter what you do, the infestation is going to overwhelm you.

    In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.

    This was actually one of the biggest problems with the movie vs the book. In the book, they aren't fast. They just plod along at a slow walk. They still overwhelm you, but not at an insane pace. The issue at the battle of yonkers was that to kill them in the book you had to get a clean headshot. The idea was that even HE (a modern warriors best friend) does very little to them. In the end, they actually adopted Napoleonic tactics with .22 rifles and would walk into an area and just head shot the zombies all day long firing by ranks. Their rate of fire was just as fast as the zombies could walk, but accurate enough to be effective against them.

    Wights don't die to regular weapons.

    Wet stuff on the red stuff.

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    Yes they do, they are the regular zombies. White walkers are the beings that only die to dragon glass or valyrian steel.

    They come apart they don't die, that's why the hands kept moving after them at the council between the different groups. It doesn't "kill" them.

    Wet stuff on the red stuff.

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    Also the impression I had.

    (add if applicable) /s

    Then its a huge inconsistency because in both Hardhome and Winterfell thousands of them died without their pieces continuing on.

    Kill in the sense of ending their effectiveness for combat. To that end, regular swords and weapons chop them up just fine.

    Granted you need fire or dragon glass to "kill" them, but there were thousands of them left dead again at the battles without the use of either

    They definitely do, otherwise our characters never survive Hardhome, let alone this battle

    I think it goes something like this:
    dragonglass/valyarian steel - one good stab or slash will take them out - see Theon one-shotting wight after wight with obsidian arrows.
    fire - burns them to death, but takes a minute
    regular weapons - gotta cut that wight into pieces, this is your last resort

    That was a fantastic episode. So many moving parts. Just amazing how it all tied together. Arya was incredible. What a character arc during the whole thing.

    As much as I enjoyed it, the planning for the battle was outrageously bad. I'm not sure if they had any military consultants on-hand but man they deserved to lose for how shite their planning was.

    Dothraki wasted as a plot device to pull Dany into the fight early. They should have been held in reserve waiting to charge the flank or even the rear, not ride blindly into the night at an unseen foe. The lighting of the swords was cool and all but a complete waste.

    And why is the army even outside of both the wall and the fire moat for that matter? You have a castle. Defend it. Let the opposing side lay siege. The Unsullied and some of the army should have been behind the moat picking them off as the breached. While the archers and the trebuchets (that were barely used) thumped them from behind the walls. The rest of the army actually in the Castle ready to defend it.

    They knew there was an enemy dragon? Where were the scorpion ballista to shoot at it?

    I wish the dagger flop to Arya's other hand was shown at actual speed. The slow motion is cool but it seems like plenty of time for the Night King to react. IMO, would have been badass if Arya jumped knowing she may get caught and reacted with her catlike reflexes instantly dropping the dagger for the killing blow.

    Mel dying walking into the snow seems like a waste. I thought she left long ago from dragonstone to go find help anyway. I guess she found nothing and turned back. Her snapping Arya out of her funk was good though. Wish she would have died in some kind of fire battle with a white walker or something. I was certain that she was going to save Davos. I thought maybe the dead would be close to breaching the Crypt and he arrived to fight them back but was soon overrun, only to be saved by Mel blasting some white walkers but dying in the process.

    Speaking of which, where were those fools? They were all hanging out in the rear, waiting. I kept thinking how cool it would be when they finally entered the battle and we saw some cool fights with some of the lead characters. Would have been awesome if the good guys were somehow stemming the tied and then those guys entered the battle and started wrecking some shit turning it back towards the dead.

    Finally, the scene when Dany is driven from Drogon is a bit forced. She knew there were dead rising all around. She obviously saw them around Jon. So why stay on the ground? Why land at all? Just hover over the battle and blast some fools. The Jorah scene was very good though, but not as good as Lyanna Mormont killing the zombie Giant. That was epic.

    anyway. nitpicking because it's all after the fact and the episode was damn good. Can't wait for the conclusion.

    Yea, Jon is an awful military leader. Battle of the bastards and now this. Why is the artillery in front of the troops? (I do get why it's not in Winterfell, it's not big enough courtyards). They should have had the entire battlefield covered in oil to light to burn the fallen behind them to prevent the night king from getting more troops.

    Wet stuff on the red stuff.

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    The courtyards always look plenty big when they show Winterfell from the sky, but then cramped when on the ground. They should fit in scale with the aerial view.

    For the oil, I suppose they could just not have had enough.

    True. Jon isn't a great general, but I don't think the show or the book, as far as it has gotten, is trying to depict him as so. Jon has routinely been against insurmountable odds that often required intervention of some 3rd party to secure the victory BUT I think the point with Jon is more that he is a courageous leader that is able to command men to stand and fight against those kind of odds.

    But for this battle they have some very seasoned minds all in one place. Jaime, Breanne, Jorah, Grey Worm, Tyrion, Jon, Dany, Beric, The Hound, The Vale Knights (where were they btw??), etc. For all those gifted minds at combat this plan was a complete failure.

    To be fair they had limited supplies and no one you mentioned had fought a war against the undead.

    well... disagree. You don't need to have fought against the undead or have additional supplies for anything I said (except maybe some scorpion ballista). Just someone with military tactics training which many of them had.

    Anyway, like I said those are nitpicking details from an otherwise great show.

    There are a lot of horrible military tactics in GoT. Stannis was known for his military mind and he never did well. Battle of black water wasnt over until Tywin showed up with help, BoBastards needed the Vail to show up late. Rob Stark was the only smart tactician on the series. Basically you have to expect everyone to do the dumbest thing.

    But yes calvary is never really up front. They should be flanking because they can move.

    However, they could have done things better and still got to where we were at. They were out numbered and every death counts against them twice.

    Absolutely loved the episode but I have one question and my wife planted the seed, I think back now to Beric and his sacrifice and all the foreshadowing to Arya being the one to take out the NK and I seen the White walkers hair blow, but did she really just run through them untouched? What's the chances she jumped one and then was able to take on his appearance? Maybe I'm missing something from the lack of oxygen from holding my breath. I'm going to have to rewatch it.

    I'm thinking she was able to get into the godswood before the NK got there and climbed into the tree ready to pounce from above.

    As a part of the Faceless Men I think she was able to become someone else in the woods possibly? Not sure to be frank, just throwing out guesses.

    Another white bronco? The first one didn't go too far.

    That was along our line of thinking too but she had already snuck up on Jon in the same spot so maybe she's just that damn good.

    The scene with her evading the walkers inside Winterfell makes it abundantly clear she can move quickly without being heard. Combine that with her ability to take any face (possibly the face of the walker she stabbed in the f'n jaw in that same scene) and yeah, it does make sense that she could get to there undetected.

    Also, remember that sparring scene with Brienne in I want to say episode 2?

    In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.

    Absolutely on the cat-like stealth and the ability to switch hands. I just hope they go back and cover how she did it. Don't care if she swings out of a tree or double back flips off Drogon, I just want to know at this point lol

    My question about her jumping out of a tree is that the closest tree was behind Bran and in front of the Night King. The space behind the Night King was largely treeless, and she definitely came from behind/maybe to the side of the NK.

    edit: I'm actually in the camp who doesn't really care about where she came from because I trust her ability training as a faceless man/assassin to be the one who could sneak up and pull off that surprise attack. I am just posting my thoughts about the "she was in the tree" theory.

    The theory is she slips past the White Walkers. You can see the wind blow their hair and they turn to see what it was, then Arya strikes.

    Though, being that stealthy and then screaming as you jump seems counter-intuitive.

    Yeah this is pretty much what I thought happened when it happened live. The first I had even heard of this "from the tree" theory was on here.

    Yeah. I prefer not to know how exactly this happened because it's unlikely to make much sense.

    How long did it take her to slip from the room with the wights which had a lot of cover? Yet now she somehow slips by the white walkers and the huge circle of wights where there is zero cover.

    In terms of cinematography/visuals/emotions, great episode. Unfortunately in terms of plot/strategy, not very strong.

    I mean, it's kinda' like when Jamie charged Drogon along the river bank, but when Bronn knocked him in the water - suddenly it's 50 feet deep?

    Is Ed Sheeran still alive?

    Yeah but his face got burned off, the whores are talking about him in the scene with Bromm 1st episode.

    I was....distracted, in that scene.

    He is alive but lost his eye lids on the dragon attack on the Laniscter army. The whores were talking about him.

    Wet stuff on the red stuff.

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    Watched it live on HBO Now. Was surprised to see that as soon as the episode was available (a few minutes to nine), one was able to fast forward to the end, and said that it loud. Wife heard me, and came downstairs term minutes later saying "Holy shit, you should see that ending!" Major potential for "Snape kills Dumbledore!"-level spoilage on the Twitters. Could you imagine someone tweeting "HOLY SHIT, ARYA JUMPS OUT OF THE TREE AND KILLS THE NIGHT KING" at 9:10pm?

    If you're not sure if my comment warrants a "/s", it probably does.

    HBO Now is the best for this reason IMO. I've never seen someone skip ahead but I'm usually two-three minutes ahead of my Twitter feed.

    I have no idea why my username is VT_Warthog.

    Arkansas blew a 24-0 lead in the Belk Bowl.

    To each their own, but idk how the hell anyone can live tweet during this show. I don't even have a twitter but I throw my phone to the other side of the room until the credits roll lol

    Amateur superstar and idiot extraordinaire.

    It's usually just a quick little tweet lol. Nothing major.

    I have no idea why my username is VT_Warthog.

    Arkansas blew a 24-0 lead in the Belk Bowl.

    Did she jump out of the tree?

    Either that or she has a future career in the Westeros Basketball Association with that vertical.

    stick it in, stick it in, stick it in!

    That was my thought. She got some insane height on that leap, so maybe it was from the tree.

    If you're not sure if my comment warrants a "/s", it probably does.

    I've watched a few times in slow motion on the TiVo and while I can't say she didn't jump from the tree it doesn't look like a jump from above but from Behind. Combine this with the scene right before where "something" moves the nights kings Lieutenants hair and I think that is Arya moving past him.

    Wet stuff on the red stuff.

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    I basically had this happen with one of the episodes a few years ago where my roommate kinda jokingly said someone died at the end of the episode. Watched the episode nearly right after and just didn't believe him until I saw it for myself and didn't lose much of the surprise. I think with something like this, were there are so many options for what could happen to who, its hard to take everything you see like that literal. If you develop your own theories, you probably aren't going to just accept what someone posts on twitter right before you experience it. Its not like a sporting event where the final result can be spoiled easily, since a team will either win or lose.

    No one on here thought the episode was a little dark? Like I get battle scenes being dark for the dramatic effect (and you know it being night time) but throw some anchors in there so I can at least tell wtf is going on. I'm going to have to re-watch everything again tonight.

    (add if applicable) /s

    Make sure you turn your TV to movie or Cinema mode for the picture.

    Wet stuff on the red stuff.

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    Yeah I wasn't at my house. I would have been messing with the TV settings but I wasn't going to hold everyone else up from squinting.

    (add if applicable) /s

    Rewatched it with some adjusted picture settings still dark but could see what was going on. Really enjoyed it more.

    Notes from watching it a second time:

    - The Red Woman could be blamed for quite a few deaths, bitch there are hundreds of thousands of wights coming at you and you need to light the trench....a little hustle please.

    - Arya certainly has some major ups.

    - Dany is still a dumbass for inexplicably sitting on the ground for so damn long.

    (add if applicable) /s

    The Red Woman could be blamed for quite a few deaths, bitch there are hundreds of thousands of wights coming at you and you need to light the trench....a little hustle please.

    My thoughts too the second time I watched this.

    Well, she was terrified and had been losing her faith since Stannis and didn't manage to recruit anyone in Essos. She was also probably drained a bit from lighting all the Dothraki.

    I'm not talking about her magic deal I'm talking about literally walking all dramatic up there. Power walk, light job, something a bit more speedy.

    (add if applicable) /s

    Now finish up them taters; I'm gonna go fondle my sweaters.

    Well, the night is dark and full of terror

    In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.

    Now finish up them taters; I'm gonna go fondle my sweaters.

    Who's making these they're great

    (add if applicable) /s

    Really enjoyed the episode but as mentioned above there are a number of questions remaining that will likely go unanswered.

    The writers sampled some of the great scenes from classic movies.
    Arya in the library = Jurassic Park kitchen scene
    Army of the dead charging into the Unsullied = The Dead King's Army in Lord of the Rings
    Arya killing Night King = Eowyn killing Nazgul King in LoTR

    Big notice on the nod to the JP kitchen scene. I feel like that was absolutely what they were sampling there now that you mention it. My first thought when I was watching it was "this is the super frustrating level on a video game where you have to navigate a crowded room with stealth."

    In the Behind the Thrones about this episode the director was talking about how they had something like 8 or 9 wights patrolling the library along different overlapping paths, then told Maisie to try and sneak through unseen. I wonder how much of her route in the final cut ended up being planned out and how much was improv from Maisie.

    I've seen some discussion about Jon's lack of military successes. He won the battle of the wildlings after the dude on top of the wall went straight coward. He had the right plan with the information he had in the battle of the bastards, he just didn't heed Sansa's advice not to let Ramsey bait him into a mistake. Sansa witheld information about the Vail for that battle. I think he had the right strategic plan for he battle of Winterfell, considering that unless someone killed the NK, the living lose anyway. Using Bran as the ploy to draw the NK out was the right plan overall, Tactically, Jon and the war counsel wasn't very smart last night but again, as it turned out, it didn't matter what the battle plan was, unless the NK was killed everyone was going to die. I wonder how they're going to raise an army to go south though.

    Correy

    Plot twist coming, Bran's useless self is gonna ressurect the dead for a army of the living and theyll go make cersi walk another walk of shame.

    Def agree Jon is a very heat of the moment Stark minded fool all about honor and while his plans are usually good he has the stark tendency to try and do the right thing even if it screws him up tactically.

    The whole battle of the bastards went tits up because Sansa withheld a shit ton of good info and didnt trust jon cause she thinks shes so witty and cant trust her brother.

    Directions from Blacksburg to whoville, go north till you smell it then go east until you step in it

    Also: I was dead certain they were going to slow motion the episode out and just cut to black with either bran or NK's face on the screen. Time was ticking down fasttt.

    Amateur superstar and idiot extraordinaire.

    I think one of the biggest questions in the aftermath of the episode that doesn't seem to have any good answers at the moment is: What Bran was doing warging into that unkindness of Ravens? We see him fly them near some dragon fire then they kind of fly off and aren't seen again despite Bran clearly still being in warg state until the very end of the episode. I can't imagine that having no importance, but it could also be something as simple as just using them to track the NK's whereabouts.

    Yeah at first I thought it was just to catch the NK attention and make him focus on coming to Bran but why he stayed like that the entire episode I didn't understand.

    (add if applicable) /s

    The main issue I have with the end of the Night King so quickly is that the rest of Westeros has no idea it was a severe existential threat. They may rally around Cersei as one of their own now that Dany's only option with her armies destroyed is to unleash the dragons more liberally.

    Or just unleash Arya.

    (add if applicable) /s

    I don't know about y'all, but I got irrationally mad at Daenerys when she landed the dragon after helping Jon, felt so sad watching those whites crawl all over and stab him over and over and him not be able to shake them off

    Now finish up them taters; I'm gonna go fondle my sweaters.

    Yeah the amount of "fly away bitch"-s that came out of my mouth was at least 30.

    (add if applicable) /s

    I internally panic whenever the dragons are in danger as if I'm watching a dog in position to potentially die. I was standing on my feet on the couch as soon as the dragon fighting started. I took it as an unexpected "miscue" on her part that is bound to happen in the chaos of a battle. It's easy to say in hindsight how stupid it was to do that, but I think having those "brainfart" moments in a crazy, hectic situation makes it more realistic. I feel the same way about some of Jon's tactical/decision making errors throughout the series. He has some great successes, but he also has moments where he ends up facing an oncoming Ramsay army by himself, or yelling(?) at an undead dragon from 5 feet away. Those little mistakes feel like real decisions you could make in the moment without the benefit of hindsight.

    I hate to say it, but the quality of the writing has taken a huge nosedive since the show passed were the books left off. It just feels like a generic hollywood superhero movie where everyone important has a crazy amount of plot armor. I hope they prove me wrong with some plot twists down the stretch because the first three episodes have been extremely predictable.

    "For those who have passed, for those to come, reach for excellence."

    Safe to say the books will be quite different. Hell, Beric isn't even around anymore having breathed life into Lady Stoneheart.

    And the Night King doesn't even exist in the books. There is the Night's King from the tale told to Bran in the beginning, but they have entirely different origin stories and, according to GRRM, are two distinct characters.

    stick it in, stick it in, stick it in!

    I think the Night King exists in the books, we just havn't seen him yet.

    And I am referring to the two separate characters. In the books they havnt even gone to Hardhome yet.

    Martin said the end of the show will be the same as the end of the books. And the producers last night indicated they have known for 3 years Arya was the one that would kill the NK. That leads me to believe he will be in the books, just not to this point.

    You right.

    "I don't think [showrunners] Dan [Weiss] and David [Benioff]'s ending is going to be that different from my ending because of the conversations we did have," Martin said in a new interview with 60 Minutes, referring to a fateful multi-day conference in which he spilled the broad strokes of the ending back in 2013. "But there may be – on certain secondary characters, there may be big differences."

    So it sounds like the major plot points will be very similar, but I guess the "how they get there" will be different.

    stick it in, stick it in, stick it in!

    I enjoyed the episode thoroughly, but I would put the battle behind Hardhome in terms of my favorite in the series.

    My only real complaint is the lack of info on the Night King and no utilization of the White Walkers at all. I feel like they made the point of having multiple skilled fighters present with Valyrian steel swords, I figured we would get at least one moment of a duel with a WW. Watching Brienne fight one to save Jaime for example would have been awesome. I loved Arya punking all those wights and then the NK, But is it too much to ask for Bran to give us some insight on him before the series ends?

    Speaking of Bran, as mentioned above it seems to me that he was doing something more than warging into those ravens during the entire episode.

    Things I loved:
    The smug look on the Night King's face after Drogon tried to roast him

    Jorah going out like a boss, Dany crying and the dragon comforting her.

    The way Beric's sacrifice played out

    The Hound being scared and seeing Arya causing him to snap out of it

    Melisandre's callback to when she last saw Arya with the Brotherhood

    The bravery and composure of the Unsullied

    Mormont killing the giant

    The moments between Sansa and Tyrion were also fantastic. I feel like those will play into the end of the series, perhaps with both of them ruling?

    This is pretty much exactly how I felt. I'm not sure where I rank it yet on all-time GoT battles, but I definitely agree there was a missed opportunity for some WW duels. However, we have seen enough white walker deaths that we know outside of their enhanced strength, they are not built for one on ones. Pretty much any knick or light touch from a Valyrian steel/dragonglass blade shatters them instantly. That puts them at an extreme disadvantage in any 1v1.

    Yep the NK's plan was basically have his boys stand back and manage the fight remotely through wight-vision and let the countless wights do the dirty work. Having the Walkers get up close and personal and fight anyone 1v1 would have been bad planning on their part, and they are definitely portrayed as cold, calculated style of villains so it would not have really fit with their characterization. Even at Hardholme they don't enter the battle until near the end when it seems like the humans are routed.

    At Winterfell they only rolled in once the defense was completely smashed and round 2 of wights had been raised, but ultimately even entering the castle in the first place was the NK plan's only flaw.. the hubris of the NK wanting to end Bran / 3-eyed Raven personally. (or maybe he needed to do the deed with his special ice sword to really kill the 3-Eyed raven?)

    There was a clear arrogance displayed by the NK by the end. His smug look after the dragon fire didn't work. His raising the second round of the dead after staring down Snow.

    By that point there was nothing he thought he needed to worry about. Not that he ever seemed particularly worried.

    Whether he needed to kill Bran personally, I'm sure he wanted to for his own reasons regardless

    Did the NK surviving the dragon flame mean he's a Targaryan? And Dany survived fire but her brother died indirectly from fire. What's the deal with Targaryan's and fire and does it have anything to do with the NK?

    No. NK became the night king long before the Targaryan's were around.

    Nah, he's just the embodiment of 0 degrees Kelvin. Too cold to get burned by anything. Just his little winter storm was enough to keep the trench from being lit without Mel countering with fire magic.

    Yeah, I think that was just another opportunity to show how powerful he was.

    Unlikely we'll ever get an explanation on who the NK ever was, at least without the books.

    I knew the NK was going to survive a dragon blast the second that Bran said "I don't know.... nobody has tried" when asked if dragon fire could kill him the previous episode.

    In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.

    Gotta say battle of the bastards takes the cake for me, I actually felt kinda meh about the battle last night cause the battle of the bastard set such a high bar for me the way it played out was perfect. That said thats one hell of a high bar and cant complain thought last night was brilliant edge of the seat freaking out stuff.

    Directions from Blacksburg to whoville, go north till you smell it then go east until you step in it

    I think there's more going on then what meets the eye. Why else was Bran warged for so long? Could it be going back in time to prevent all this bloodshed? Could he have been making a deal with The Night King? When The Night King walked up to Bran, he looked like he accepted his fate. I just feel like The Night King is Bran, The Night King was going to kill Bran to destroy himself. I mean the way The Night King just looked at Bran, it felt like he had to do it when he didn't want to. Arya ruined the plans for Bran.

    Another white bronco? The first one didn't go too far.

    There's only a couple episodes left, and we still need to resolve King's Landing.

    I think that the whole WW/NK storyline has come to its conclusion. There just isn't enough time to introduce, develop, and resolve anything more with this plot without seriously detracting from the other.

    In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.

    If it were valid, wouldn't Bran have been killed when the NK died, just like all the other WW and Wights? Maybe there was a possibility for something, but it seems pretty definitive the magic of the walkers appears to be over

    this is "Arya is really the Waif in disguise" level theorycrafting.

    Bran is super poker faced at all times and wouldn't react to the NK being in his face anymore than anyone else. He also has a really good read on how people are going to react to things.. probably from spending a lot of time greenseeing into their pasts. Compliment Theon = Theon will run headlong to a courageous death, slightly delaying the NK, slightly boosting the NK's sense of invincibility, setting him up for being surprised by Arya.

    NK was practically gloating that he was about to win, basically celebrating too soon, and this guy is reading it as hesitating because he doesn't want to do it?

    I think there is still possibility with this (I think it's much lower now) but I don't think it's the same situation and his personal logic just seems like swiss cheese. We know why the Night King marked Bran. If it was also the same kind of touch he uses to turn the babies or Viserion (which I think was just a wight, not specifically a White Walker dragon), then it was an auxiliary usage of that turning power because his primary intention was definitely to mark Bran so he could locate him. For this to be true, his mark on Bran would also have to be operating under a delay (which tangents the discussion into a new direction of why?) His touching of the baby (not dead) and Viserion (dead already) took instant effect.

    Not to mention, if all it took was a simple touch, Arya is fucked, since you know, he had her by the throat

    Now finish up them taters; I'm gonna go fondle my sweaters.

    The touch the Night King gave Bran was inside one of his visions, not in meatspace. That's probably the big difference, here. If the Night King had touched Bran in meatspace, then Bran would no longer be among the living (if he could be considered such right now).

    If you're not sure if my comment warrants a "/s", it probably does.

    Great show, glad that Tormund and Ghost made it.

    During the battle we were entrenched and doing our part with a bottle of Buffalo Trace.

    There was one "speculated ending" that I wish had come true though... the one where the NK went south with his dragon and singlehandedly took Kings Landing while the battle of Winterfell was unfolding. I *so* wanted to see Cersei standing beside the NK as an evil zombie.

    .

    .
    .and Whit puts on his batting gloves and steps up to the plate....

    as an evil zombie

    She's not one already?

    I had convinced myself that was gonna happen but when I first saw him appear I couldnt help but think what a dipshit cause I knew he had to die now or the shows a waste. Just think they werent expecting it at kings landing and then the NK would have what 1 million at least more wights? and then the north would have no where to retreat.

    Directions from Blacksburg to whoville, go north till you smell it then go east until you step in it

    That speculated ending did make a hell of a lot of sense IMO, and I was looking forward to evil Cersei becoming even more evil. I envisioned her treacherously stealing the NK's power and killing him herself.

    Cersei with the army of the dead behind her would have been the ultimate villain.

    Now the villains who are left don't even understand how bad it could have been.

    Minimalist depleted good guys battle remaining bad guys with the help of a couple of dragons. Lots of "feel good" opportunities left, but... the series goes out with a sputter.

    Hope I am wrong and/or that the FGM's are very good.

    .

    .
    .and Whit puts on his batting gloves and steps up to the plate....

    I think that this does prove the theory that the Night King is an ancient Stark - because a Stark dude can be counted on doing something incredibly stupid to get themselves killed.

    Man I hope they dont rush the conclussion from this battle I feel like there are alot of good things to come from slowing down a little and playing some stuff out to help finish up the long night story line after the way they built it up kinda sucks its over so quickly.

    Directions from Blacksburg to whoville, go north till you smell it then go east until you step in it

    In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.

    Arya takes Jaimes face confirmed!

    Directions from Blacksburg to whoville, go north till you smell it then go east until you step in it

    I thought for a minute that the night king was going to walk up to Bran and bend the knee and the show would cut with everyone going "WTF!!!"

    Come to Blacksburg and see what the Hokie Pokie is really all about

    I also had this thought... and it would have been way better

    Recruit Prosim

    Random thought with all the memes and everything coming out of last nights episode. I hope someone out there has the know how to turn Beric's flaming sword throw to save Arya into a slip/fall compilation. Think about it, skate boarder goes up for a tail slide BAM! Flaming sword in his back, exploded knee.

    Arya killing the NK just seemed a little too easy for me. I was really hoping that our heroes would converge on him in a desperate attempt to bring him down. I could have seen John trying in vain to duel him, Bran trying to distract him by playing mind checkers with him, and when all seems lost Arya sneaks in for the precision strike to the heart.

    In the context we had established around the White Walkers, most notably their instant shattering upon even a minimum level of contact with Valyrian Steel/dragonglass, GRRM and the showrunners were somewhat backed into a corner with how to kill the Night King. I think they chose a pretty dramatic/suspenseful way to do it. The other option would have been him getting into a standard sword fight until he gets hit somewhere on his body and shatters. This way at least made it seem like he was about to kill Bran and win.

    The reason that Arya was able to kill the Night King is because she uses Valyrian steel AND she stabs him in the spot the Children of the Forest pierced him with dragon glass to create him.

    Is this explicitly stated or are we just assuming this was required? I don't recall them ever saying he had to be stabbed in the heart, every other white walker went down from any contact. It might be symbolic for it to have been the heart, but for what I remember being said, there is nothing explicitly stating it had to be this way.

    I'm genuinely asking because I do not recall any mention of this heart stab requirement.

    I think it makes sense for it to be that way all the other wights died from dragons fire but he didnt so I think its a fair assumption to say he needed to be undone in the way he had been cursed almost.

    Directions from Blacksburg to whoville, go north till you smell it then go east until you step in it

    Wights - vulnerable to any fire. White Walkers - immune to fire. The question was would dragon fire be different, the answer was no.

    (add if applicable) /s

    It was not in the show, but it was confirmed by Benioff and Weiss.

    I am not a fan of that explanation, but ...

    I'm particularly not fond of this explanation because are we to assume Arya just got lucky? All the established lore on White Walkers was pretty much "hit them anywhere and they shatter." Nobody ever told her, "hey we might have to stab him in the heart because that's how the children of the forest made him, even though that isn't true for any of the other White Walkers." Surely the heart is a basic target for an assassin, probably second only to the throat, but I just cannot get behind a theory that requires a lucky choice by Arya, whether her own choice or simply the luck of physics that she was being held at such an angle that her lower hand was right near his heart.

    I agree with most of that.

    We all knew the Night King was different from the rest, so I would've expected him to get into a sword fight with Jon or someone to only find out his Valyrian sword did not cause him to die like it does the other White Walkers.

    I think it was more important for the showrunners to have Arya killing the Night King be very unexpected, so they tried to keep the number of clues that she'd kill the Night King to a minimum.. Also, maybe Bran will provide some actual useful exposition in the next 3 episodes.

    Edit: here are the show runners explaining that scene.

    After watching the video, it's unclear to me if it is actually a requirement to kill the Night King or the showrunners felt it needed to be that way because it would be especially symbolic. Perhaps they discussed it with GRRM and that idea will be developed in the books but was cut from the show. Regardless I don't think they did a good job of conveying that idea at any point in the show.

    Joffrey, Cersei, Ilyn Payne, the Hound, Jeff Jagodzinski, Paul Johnson, Pat Narduzzi.

    That was never stated and it would make no sense to have that point exposed in his armor if that's the only spot that can kill him.

    Joffrey, Cersei, Ilyn Payne, the Hound, Jeff Jagodzinski, Paul Johnson, Pat Narduzzi.

    Youre telling me youd rather have a mind battle than arya saving the day?

    via GIPHY

    Directions from Blacksburg to whoville, go north till you smell it then go east until you step in it

    While watching episode 3, I was on the edge of my seat loving every second of it. But after it finished, I was kinda left not enjoying it as much when watching it. Beginning parts were great, especially waiting in formation. Once the battle started, it seemed like every character died at least 10 times and then somehow appeared in the next scene.

    My biggest issue with the show was the use of Bran. His entire story, and arc has revolved around this battle versus the white walkers, and then he did nothing. I hope next episode explains it more. If not, all his character development was for nothing other than being white walker bait. You could remove him and the story would not change much, and now I don't know how he would affect the last few episodes since he has not been involved in the southern politics.

    At the end it felt like their goal was solely to create the longest filmed epic battle scene in tv/movie history. They did this and it was a great battle, it just did not feel like it did this story line and all of the involved characters in this plot justice.

    Assuming Bran's story is over is a big stretch, he's the most powerful person still alive in the series....

    (add if applicable) /s

    I can't quite figure out how they're gonna go take Kings landing with the A-Team and 2 dragons and no army so I'm banking on bran has a larger role to play still cause I can't see how else they can succeed around that.

    Directions from Blacksburg to whoville, go north till you smell it then go east until you step in it

    Still a chance Yara Greyjoy makes an appearance.

    Could see Daario Naharis make a return.

    Also looked like a large group of Unsullied survived.

    Tyrod did it Mikey, Tyrod did it!!

    Bran was warging and likely had more of a direct impact to the outcome of the battle than it appears on the surface, I doubt he was just going on a scenic tour of Winterfell - there are theories out there if you want to google. Also, where did Arya's dagger come from?

    Bran.

    Wet stuff on the red stuff.

    Join us in the Key Players Club

    The dagger belonged to Littlefinger. He gave it to the assassin to try to kill Bran in season 1 and blame it on Tyrion to spark conflict between the Starks and Lannisters. Littlefinger gave it to Bran last season, and Bran gave it to Arya because it would be wasted on him.

    The dagger also appears in an old book that Sam was reading at the Citadel. It must be fairly ancient, and was pictured amidst discussion of the Targaryens decorating their weapons with dragonglass. I suspect the dagger's history is quite extensive. Whether we ever get a full reveal or not remains to be seen, but probably not (nor is it essential, would just be interesting if there was some magical element to it).

    The name of the dagger is Cat'sPaw.
    It's a magic Valerian steel dagger.

    I'm wondering why we haven't heard more about the trumpet they found at the Fist of the First man that Sam lugged all over the place. I suspect that'll be later during the war with Cersi. It'll call the dead Starks or something.

    Also, what about Melisandra's predictoin of the Sword of Light? I think we may see another manifestation of either the ?Night King of some other dead. Melisandra didn't channel the God of Light to raise Jon Snow from the dead just to run around a battlefield ineffectively.

    This is going to be great for the ACC.

    pretty sure it's "catspaw" without the apostrophe.

    The horn Sam has is suspected to be the Horn of Winter that either could topple the wall or repair it. Perhaps the magical item used during it's original construction.

    Hopefully we see some resolution on the Azor Ahai prophecy, but maybe that is one that will be left for the books. Although I have seen some speculation that the Catspaw dagger is actually reforged from Lightbringer which is how Arya "really" killed the NK. Again maybe that is something that will only be known from the books.

    pretty sure it's an unnamed Valyrian steel dagger, it's only referred to as the catspaw dagger for easy reference since it was first presented to the audience when used in Bran's attempted assassination.
    https://gameofthrones.fandom.com/wiki/Valyrian_steel_dagger

    It's not a named weapon like Ice, Oathkeeper, Heartsbane, etc.

    note: In the TV series it's implied that Littlefinger sent the catspaw assassin. In the books it's implied Joffery did. In neither venue is the dagger referred to by a specific name.

    I think you misunderstood what I meant. I didn't mean it was a "named" blade. just that it is referred to as catspaw without the apostrophe

    absolutely. but in my defense your post seem to be a simple correction of the spelling/capitalization of the weapon's name, rather than pointing out it's not actually a named weapon

    This is correct. It's only colloquially referred to as the "catspaw dagger".

    From Wikipedia,

    Cat's paw or Catspaw may refer to:

    "Cat's paw", an idiom, meaning "the dupe of another", derived from La Fontaine's fable "The Monkey and the Cat"

    The catspaw in this case refers to the hired thug that was sent to kill Bran. Thus the colloquial name for the dagger, as it was "his" dagger.

    If you're not sure if my comment warrants a "/s", it probably does.

    Ha, I know - I was trying to convey to Hokiebuzz that Bran is more involved than it may initially appear

    So much for that whole Azor Ahai prophecy...

    Was really hoping that John would fulfill that in some epic way. But if anyone else was gonna kill the knight king, Arya ain't bad.

    I really hope that the Prince That Was Promised storyline will be approached in some meaningful way in the next three episodes.

    Well Arya was mistaken for a boy for like a season or so early on....

    In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.

    It would be something if Qyburn (spelling) figured out how to make a White Walker before Jon and Danny turn south.

    Correy

    bingo. like I said before, it didn't take a tactical genius to follow some basic understanding of how to defend a castle and fight an opponent with a larger army, and they had plenty of seasoned military men. However, they also need the show to move past the battle outside the castle and move into the castle for the character scenes so getting rid of the bulk army in the quickest way possible was undoubtedly ideal.

    That, and no matter the tactics the living were going to lose unless the NK was killed. The show had the NK wait until most of the living were overrun by the dead before the NK and the other walkers arrived. While tactically the battle plan was poor, I agree, I think they wanted to speed things up to get the NK face to face with Bran.

    Correy

    Worth noting, whatever the plan was went out the window when Dany mounted her dragon after seeing the Dothraki destroyed. Then Jon joined, the dragons were out early, and any potential tactical advantage was destroyed with timing, people not sticking to their duties, etc.

    Planning was all about drawing out the Night King, not about defeating the army of walkers.

    This episode (in a vaccuum) was pretty incredible, but like others here, I'm unsatisfied.

    This paragraph from a Forbes article succinctly describes my frustration:

    The Night King stuff felt a bit...flat. Many have been crafting elaborate theories about the Night King's true identity and purpose and secrets that are supposed to be revealed, but in the end he's...just a very angry ice zombie trying to wipe out humanity. In a show where its villains are defined by political intrigue and intricate character development over a period of years, it's kind of weird to have a fight like this against a pure monster with no personality or drive past paving over the entire continent.

    My other big complaint was with the red women. In season 2(?) there was a scene where she removed the magic necklace and her true age showed. I always thought that scene would have huge significance, but it appears that it does not.

    A friend told me that a lot of info on the Night King is being withheld so hbo can use in a spin-off series. Since we're probably not getting it in this series, I guess I hope she's right?

    Twitter me

    I wouldnt say the red woman wasn't a good arc. The charm was the Lord of lights way of keeping her alive to keep Arya on her quest just like he brought beric back a thousand times to save Arya as well. I would argue her arc was very well done we knew she was ancient after she took the charm off on the earlier show so we all knew she wasn't gonna last much longer.

    That said I think the episode was phenomenal was the night king arc kinda meh? Sure but he never talked so unless we get some serious bran time to explain it all I don't know how much we ever will know on it other than it was a huge conflict that forced Danny to help Jon and earn the norths trust at the same time.

    Directions from Blacksburg to whoville, go north till you smell it then go east until you step in it

    I agree.. without getting into the nitty gritty they made it clear that Melisandre had been working for centuries to fullfill the prophecy as she interpreted it. Of course her efforts were full of mistakes but they still ended up contributing to all the right people being alive and in Winterfell at the right time to take down the night king.

    she's either an agent of fate or the lord of light (or bran?) was actually sending her the signals she needed to be getting at the specific times... Stannis needs to go north to save Jon/Night's Watch ... better tell Melisandre he's the chosen one and needs to defend his people from the white walkers.
    etc etc

    "Why gobble gobble chumps asks such good questions, I will never know." - TheFifthFuller

    she's either an agent of fate or the lord of light (or bran?) was actually sending her the signals she needed to be getting at the specific times

    Hadnt even thought of that angle that maybe Bran is the lord of light or thats one of the rolls the three eyed raven plays.

    Other question on Bran could he potentially warg to control a human?

    Directions from Blacksburg to whoville, go north till you smell it then go east until you step in it

    "Bran is the Lord of Light" is one of the current hot theories on reddit. It took the place of the "Night King flying to King's Landing instead of Winterfell" theory as current GoT reddit theory of the week.

    I have read this as well. Theory is that the NK used one of the other gods (forget the name) power to create the wights with Ice, while Bran uses the Lord of Lights power to create wights with fire (as in both Beric and John/Aegon are actually fire wights and not living)

    So what if they just wheel brans dumb ass down to kings landing and make him warg into Cersi and just walk her ass out the gates and let danys dragons torch her?

    Directions from Blacksburg to whoville, go north till you smell it then go east until you step in it

    Technically, Bran could be the ultimate tactical weapon because he can see everything happening in the present. All decision making from Cersei, Euron, Commander of Golden Company could be relayed and plans adjusted to best counter them. It's unlikely he has any interest in participating in such a thing, but yeah he is quite the trump card. Arya is also a trump card if she chooses to be. It would not be a hard sell to suggest Arya could fairly easily assassinate Cersei with her skillset and ability to wear faces.

    Cersei may not know Little Finger is dead.

    This is going to be great for the ACC.

    Other question on Bran could he potentially warg to control a human?

    Yes, he did this with Hodor a number of times.

    RIP Hodor.

    He is really missing a chance to just warg into The Mountain and save a ton of lives. But then, would he even be able to warg into whatever The Mountain is now?

    "How the ass pocket will be used, I do not know. Alls I know is, the ass pocket will be used."
    - The BoD

    Bran worged into Hodor on more than one occasion

    I would argue her arc was very well done we knew she was ancient after she took the charm off on the earlier show so we all knew she wasn't gonna last much longer.

    Here arc was fine, but I'm still pissed off about the charm necklace scene. I wound up not being relevant, and for a show that doesn't have any irrelevant scenes, this is really annoying.

    Twitter me

    I disagree with that passage from the Forbes article and think it is missing the larger point of Martin's tale.

    I do think there is more in the backstory of the Night King. But I also think, like many things, the showrunners boiled it down to its essence. That being, in a world where man is constantly dicking themselves over with political intrigue, houses vying for supremacy and the game of thrones the one thing that surmounts all of that is unadulterated, unemotional evil. Who's motivation is to bring the age of man to an end. To usher in night forever. All the petty squabbles of man's intrigues become less important to that.

    I agree with you completely. GRRM has been vocal from the start that he doesn't want the main focus of the story to be a simple good (humanity) vs. evil (NK & death) but rather about the gray areas that emerge from human interaction and conflict. He managed to weave that good vs evil element into the story, but it was never meant to be the primary focus. So wrapping up the NK storyline before finishing the human side makes sense in his ideal plan.

    Also from the books it's clear the White Walkers don't speak a language man can understand. How would their story get told without them being able to speak?

    Wet stuff on the red stuff.

    Join us in the Key Players Club

    But, it's like they didn't even try!

    Now I'm picturing the Night King sitting at a table with a translator and a stenographer working on his book.

    Insomnia is a hell of a thing.

    If you're not sure if my comment warrants a "/s", it probably does.

    How would their story get told without them being able to speak?

    They obviously use symbolism to communicate messages. Beyond that, Kraster somehow negotiated with them to reach the agreement to sacrifice his male kids, so we know its doable. Finally, Bran could use his greensight to watch them in the past.

    Twitter me

    I don't think the passage from the article was critiquing the larger point of Martin's tale. I think it was pointing out that part of the essence of GoT that is so enjoyable for the audience is witnessing the long game play out between characters. Both the long term political maneuvering and the full circle character arcs were so painstakingly enjoyable. As the author points out, this is a show that has laid the ground work for tons of fan theories with elaborate plot lines and complex characters. For example there was so much mystique built up about the crypts of Winterfell but as of right now they haven't evolved past Jon's favorite place to brood. If this is how they end the NK's story arc then I think flat is the perfect description.

    I think you're right that the show runners boiled it down to its essence and probably didn't have a choice. GRRM himself can't even finish the story. Be that as it may, the ending (thus far) is lacking the nuance and satisfaction that we were teased with IMO.

    I also don't think the WW represent unadulterated, unemotional evil. They represent death. Sam explains this last episode. I think they are characterized as unadulterated, unemotional evil in their representation of death but it is death that surmounts all the human squabbling not evil.

    Sam explains that death is like forgetting. And since Bran is the memory of man if he dies then man is forgotten/dies.

    But when I think of death as an adversary I think of inevitability and an uncaring if something is dead or living because everyone eventually dies. But the Night King has malice and intent. He is driven not to wait for the inevitable but to force ever lasting Night onto man. That seems more like evil to me. But splitting hairs probably.

    But I also think, like many things, the showrunners boiled it down to its essence. That being, in a world where man is constantly dicking themselves over with political intrigue, houses vying for supremacy and the game of thrones the one thing that surmounts all of that is unadulterated, unemotional evil. Who's motivation is to bring the age of man to an end. To usher in night forever. All the petty squabbles of man's intrigues become less important to that.

    So, that's fine that the showrunners boiled it down to its essence, but there are a few crucial scenes/facts that lead to this disappointed:

    1. What was the point of showing how the NK was created? The fact that they show the viewer that he used to be human implies that he is somewhat human, and that he should have some emotion, or understanding, etc. If that's not the case, then don't show that scene, OR show other scenes explaining why he no longer likes humans.
    2. Why do they leave symbols everywhere? What's the point of this? How are you going to show this 5 different times throughout the series, and never address the goal/purpose of the symbol?
    3. I get the idea that the petty squabbles of men are insignificant, but I think the show failed to really portray this. It doesn't really ring true if you defeat the NK, just to fight another battle against Cersei for the throne.

    Up until this point, every scene (if not every shot) was relevant to some scene in the future. This didn't hold true for the NK story line (or the red woman story line). At the end of the day, the NK character had no depth and no arc. If GRRM finishes the series, I fully expect the NK will be motivation by something other than being/bringing death to Westeros. Given the way the first 6 seasons were written, I would've expected the same from the show runners.

    Twitter me

    I've come to think that there are certain elements of the story that neither GRRM nor the producers of the show want to explicitly state, instead preferring to allow the readers/viewers to come up with their own interpretations.

    Why do they leave symbols everywhere? What's the point of this? How are you going to show this 5 different times throughout the series, and never address the goal/purpose of the symbol?

    This one was stated in an interview with the producers. The Night King is angry about his creation, so he blasphemes the religious symbols of the Children of the Forest. For instance, the spiral of stones around the weirwood at which he was created keeps showing up. He recreates it using dead people or animals to denigrate it. It shows that the White Walkers are intelligent and have some kind of culture, bastardized from the Children of the Forest and the Old Gods.

    This one was stated in an interview with the producers. The Night King is angry about his creation, so he blasphemes the religious symbols of the Children of the Forest. For instance, the spiral of stones around the weirwood at which he was created keeps showing up. He recreates it using dead people or animals to denigrate it. It shows that the White Walkers are intelligent and have some kind of culture, bastardized from the Children of the Forest and the Old Gods.

    Thanks for this! I didn't know this, and it makes more sense now. BUT I'm still annoyed - this is something that could have and should have been explained to the viewer via characters, not an interview with the show runners. Literally add an additional three minutes of dialog to the scene where Bran is under the tree with the three eye raven and the children of the forest:

    Bran: "Why is does he want to kill us?"
    Three eyed Raven: "He was forced to live a lonely existence forever. He is angry about his creation, so he mocks the faith of those who made him, blaspheming the religious symbols of the Children of the Forest."
    Bran: "Can we reason with him, or convince him otherwise?"
    Thee eyed Raven: "No, he is too far gone, he no longer human"

    THEN, instead of Bran just getting unintentionally marked by the Night King during a rogue greensight session, the show runners could have tweaked that scene so that Bran tries to reason with the NK in his vission, but instead gets attached/marked. All of a sudden, you have given this character a purpose.

    To reinforce this idea throughout later seasons, you can show other northerners who worship the old gods seeing the symbols and getting offended.

    BOOM YOU'RE WELCOME GRRM (and David Weiss and David Benioff)!

    Twitter me

    While I was hoping for a little more lore/explanation (via Bran vision while he was totally checked out of the battle) on the White Walkers, I'm not that disappointed that we're not getting more information. Maybe there will be some short explainer in the next episode.

    While it was weird that the Night King could be taken down so easily, at least it was consistent with what happened to Benjen. Stab through the heart with an ice weapon was neutralized by dragonglass, keeping him alive(?) so killing the Night King required a stab through the heart where dragonglass had been to create him. A little contradictory to think that dragonglass can work both ways, but at least we got a hint of where that might have been going.

    What I'm really curious about is what Melisandre was up to. She went back to Essos - why? Was it to plot something with the Golden Company? Contact the Fiery Hand? Go back to Asshai for some reason? I doubt they sent her across the Narrow Sea solely for the purpose of bringing her back dramatically for the battle. There's got to be a reason, and I'm wondering if that's the final "twist" that was promised.

    I think you might be onto something there with Melisandre I've been racking my brain for what the catch could be and I had forgotten she went off the Essos during her hiatus from the screen so maybe thats where the catch is coming. I cant see the iron fleet abandoning Cersi at this point so it has to be something else or were gonna get a cersi kills all and reigns forever ending

    Directions from Blacksburg to whoville, go north till you smell it then go east until you step in it

    And further down in his Twitter feed, what could have been.......*sigh*

    If you're not sure if my comment warrants a "/s", it probably does.

    Except that we did see that - it's the Tower of Joy (Ser Arthur Dayne) fight scene.

    Nice fake-out by the NK actor.

    Learned today that Arya (Maisie who plays her) is actually a righty but needed to learn how to fight left handed and she has been at it so long she can now sword and knife fight with both hands.

    Wet stuff on the red stuff.

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    Just a small clarification, Maisie Williams chose to fight left handed to stay true to the books. This was never forced on her by the show runners.

    This Fact About Maisie Williams Makes Arya Stark's Fight Scenes Even More Impressive

    You're probably wondering if she's ended up ambidextrous from all this training. She hasn't. She told Vogue UK ahead of Season 8 episode 3, "Eight years later, and I'm still paying for that mistake." At first, she says, she kept up the lefthanded fighting for continuity's sake (a true expert at her craft). "In the beginning, I just had to do a little sparring. Now, I'm doing entire fight sequences with the wrong hand, and I'm like, 'Why did I ever think this was a good idea?'"

    You might think that the showrunners forced her to do this, or the fight choreographers, or some other adult on set who somehow has the designation of enforcing hand usage in young actresses. You would be wrong, this is a Maisie Williams-led-and-enforced detail, as she told Time back in July 2017: "The stunt guys always come in and say, 'We have this routine for you,' and I have to remind them, 'Can we re-choreograph the whole thing, because I'm not doing it with my right hand.'"

    Sooo disappointed with Gandalf, I expected him to arrive with the riders of Rohan at dawn but he never showed

    He didn't even get to tell Harry that his dad was actually Darth Vader who trained under his friend, Neo.

    That doesn't happen in the books, though

    "Why gobble gobble chumps asks such good questions, I will never know." - TheFifthFuller

    So are we definitely getting the Cleganebowl everyone has been begging for?

    Wild prediction bound to fail: The Hound defeats the Mountain. Arya takes the Mountains face, hops on the Hound's back like Master Blaster, and the two walk up to Cersei and take her head off.

    "Sooner or later, if man is ever to be worthy of his destiny, we must fill our heart with tolerance."
    -Stan Lee

    "Never half-ass two things. Whole-ass one thing."
    -Ron Swanson

    "11-0, bro"
    -Hunter Carpenter (probably)

    Will be interesting to see what they do with Cersei since she has the green eyes to satisfy the "brown eyes, green eyes, blue eyes" prophecy bestowed on Arya (though I've heard some of her kills have already had green eyes), but also we have the Valonqar prophecy that she thinks is talking about Tyrion, but would be much more fitting and dramatic if it were Jaime.

    Or Arya wearing Jaime's face.

    If you're not sure if my comment warrants a "/s", it probably does.

    Definitely the best episode of the season so far. The first two were in the bottom 5 episodes of the whole series for me. So much damn pandering to the fans. But the battle was visually stunning. Some really fun moments. As an ardent supporter of the Night King I was disappointed he died, especially in such a lame way. But it makes sense from a plot perspective.

    Definitely dumb more characters didn't die. Brianne should be dead. Sam should be dead. I thought they were going to kill off a tier one character like Tyrion/Jamie/Arya/Sansa. But the Jorah and Reek deaths were still solid.

    At this point, I'm looking forward to the inevitable Jon vs Dani showdown.

    Jon vs Dany showdown would require Jon to suddenly want the Iron Throne, which would require writing that is damn near impossible to not be seen as disastrous. It would be so out of character for Jon. To pull that shit in the last few episodes would be a complete and total slap to the face. Would be a shock twist for the sake of a shock twist and that would really dampen the series for me. The other option for it to happen would be for Dany to go full on Mad King, which would also be poor writing given everything we know and have seen thus far.

    There is a lot of room and setup for conflict between them, but for it to become Jon vs. Dany in a "showdown" would be an absolute disaster from a storytelling and writing perspective, in my opinion.

    Then again, none of us really know what they have up their sleeves with this Cersei arc, but that would be a lot to stuff into 3 episodes.

    Are you sure? Dany has done some shitty things to get to the throne, she does any more shitty things like says to put to death a few thousand people who have surrendered or killing the people of the Citadel and Jon may feel like he doesn't have a choice.

    Wet stuff on the red stuff.

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    She has done far more great/good things than the bad things. This story is full of complicated characters, all of which have made mistakes and poor choices, her mistakes have been far more focused on by viewers recently. To uniquely single her out for her mistakes is missing the point of all the characters being complicated and flawed.

    Perhaps I came in too hot, but for me the Dany turned villain ending seems really contrived for shock value and doesn't really align with GRRM's pretty heavy female/lowborn/broken empowerment vibes. To me it would be an odd choice to really cling to the patriarchal nature of Jon's (who doesn't want the throne) claim to the throne. Especially after 8 seasons of Dany conquering, liberating, and breaking or attempting to break the wheel of the established norms everywhere she goes. She has delayed her quest for Westeros to fight the injustices of slavery, undead threat to humanity, etc. It just would feel cheap and contrived to turn her full on villain in the final 3 episodes.

    I'm not saying they aren't flawed. But Jon likes to think of himself as a virtues man of Stark blood and morals. There is somethings he won't allow Dany to do is my point.

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    The way I see Jon is he doesnt feel the need to be king and I would be stunned if he would try and fight her for the throne. Dany helped him in a desperate time of need and I dont think he will forget it by stabbing her in the back on that he knows how much the throne means to her. Plus I'd argue he cares for her too much to do that as well.

    Directions from Blacksburg to whoville, go north till you smell it then go east until you step in it

    Just from the context of their current characters, I agree. He wouldn't backstab her. I think that she is going to do something crazy though in these next three episodes though. Something that might force him to intervene.

    The other option for it to happen would be for Dany to go full on Mad King...

    She's done some things that can be viewed as trending that way. There's an opening plot-wise, for sure.

    If you're not sure if my comment warrants a "/s", it probably does.

    She's done one thing that really could be viewed as similar, and dozens of other very positive and incredible things. There's a small opening, but they'd be still be making a huge leap.

    It depends if you believe that the ends justify the means. She slaughtered the free people of multiple cities in the process of liberating their slaves. Were all of them slaveowners? How many innocents did she sacrifice on the process? Was that justice?

    She is very quick to kill in order to advance her own interests. Regardless of whether or not those interests are justified, it's a questionable character trait.

    Could she slide closer towards madness from that starting point? Is not likely, but not totally farfetched.

    If you're not sure if my comment warrants a "/s", it probably does.

    They already hinted at that though. When mentioned to him that he is the rightful heir of the throne you would have expected him to brush it aside and claim he doesnt want it. He didn't do that though. He just stared. They left it open for him to want the throne. If anything because maybe he thinks Dany won't be a good ruler.

    Additionally, I think the show has already taken that dive towards disastrous writing for a full season now lol. I wouldn't put it past them to do something wacky. But mainly by "showdown" I'm thinking more like a big betrayal or something. Not so much a one on one, winner take all fight.

    He just stared.

    Maybe cause he just learned he's banging his aunt.

    Now finish up them taters; I'm gonna go fondle my sweaters.

    Frantically contemplating if she is hot enough to overcome the incest.

    I don't see why people think the writing has gotten worse? I think its gotten more predictable but your talking about wrapping up an 8 year old series you don't have much room to wiggle around with crazy plot twists because you've laid the story line out for the past 8 years.

    (add if applicable) /s

    I think it got worse by necessity. The best seasons of the show were focused on character development and multiple small scale plots. They were able to take their time with everything.

    Then as the show winds down they have to convert from being character driven to being plot driven. Everything speeds up. The writers need to get to point Z in X number of episodes. Suddenly, characters are traveling the distance of Westeros in a single episode. That kind of journey used to take half a season and would be filled with adventure.

    I certainly agree as well that it has become predictable. The writers really pander to the fans too much imo. These first two episodes were like 95% pandering. The only real moment that furthered the plot and set up potential future conflict was the reveal of Jon's heritage. Everything else was filler. Filler is fine, but it can't dominate the episode.

    That being said, the writers have a real opportunity to make these last 3 episodes incredible. No one knows what is going to happen. The scale of conflict has drastically decreased now that the Night King is dead and the looming doom of the White Walkers no longer exists. The Iron Throne is once again worth vying and dying for. People will betray each other as they lust for power. These last 3 episodes can be a return to the earlier seasons and I can't wait to see what happens.

    Harry Potter did the same thing. As the novels progressed the actual day to day school activities became less and less prevalent in order to make room for the plot

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    I think the 1st two episodes set it up. There was definitely conflict between Sansa and Danny. Then there was theJon Arya reunion where she re,kids him not to forget who his family is. If they wanted to set up conflict they could have a scene similar to the Tarleys not bending the knee with Sansa and maybe Arya.p and Jon having to decide what to do.

    Correy

    was anyone else annoyed by how slow Melisandre was walking right before setting the trench on fire?

    She's like 1000 years old. That cold weather is hell on her arthritis.

    "Sooner or later, if man is ever to be worthy of his destiny, we must fill our heart with tolerance."
    -Stan Lee

    "Never half-ass two things. Whole-ass one thing."
    -Ron Swanson

    "11-0, bro"
    -Hunter Carpenter (probably)

    Apparently its hard to walk when your tits hang down below your knees.

    That scene still haunts my dreams

    Directions from Blacksburg to whoville, go north till you smell it then go east until you step in it

    I've seen maybe three episodes from one of the middle seasons. So, ima tell you what happens because I am an expert.
    You get no solid answers out of the show
    Jaime turns his back on Cersei. He doesn't help take the throne from her. He doesn't do much of anything. In return, he's allowed to hang around.
    Dany ends up on the throne. She and Jon don't get together. Let's face it, Jon is still hung up on Ygritte. She doesn't dye her hair. He can't bring himself to pursue the throne, pursue Dany, or be King in the north.
    But good news! Cersei escaped. So, Jon is tasked with tracking her. He wanders for years likely doing this.
    Tyrion is tasked with the documentation of what all went on. A sort of royal records keeper. He gets some info from Bran, but then Bran goes off the deep end and wheels off into the sunset to be the three eyed raven in the woods. He probably goes off to hang with the people who created the night king. So, Tyrion is now the keeper of recent history. And he gets drunk.
    The stark kids go all Lion, the Witch, and the wardrobe on Winterfell. Claiming they will rule together. But as I said, Bran wanders off. Arya decides to kill more people. She disappears. Sansa is a little wonky and struggles with ruling. Can't quite figure out what to do with no conflict to distract everyone.
    Dany decides to marry Jaime in an effort to consolidate some houses, and appease people. As the last episode fades out, she's on the throne and says some creepy ass line that the Mad King had said earlier.
    Oh, and Brienne and Jaime have an awkward moment. Tormund watches. Tormund and Brienne then have an awkward moment. They ride off together to help Jon because Brienne wants a lord worth serving. But, they don't imply that they're going to shack up.

    Sansa is a little wonky and struggles with ruling.

    Honestly I thought the only thing that could be wonky was someone's knee. But overall this is amazing and I hope all of this come s true. Also sounds like one of those "I had a bot write an episode of diners, drive-ins, and dives" type things

    Here lies It's a Stroman Jersey I Swear, surpassed in life by no one because he intercepted it.

    Adding to this: Dany goes mad, as Targaryens are wont to do, and slaughters everyone she believes is a threat to the throne. Bronn survives because he has no claim and winds up bedding and marrying Dany. He eventually grows tired of her madness, kills her and assumes the throne, finally getting, not just his castle, but a kingdom.

    The final scene is a befuddled Sam, who has become grand maester, explaining to King Bronn that every whore in the kingdom has a newly discovered, deathly STD and he can't find the link. Bronn gives Sam a forced puzzled look, coughs...(And Scene)

    "How the ass pocket will be used, I do not know. Alls I know is, the ass pocket will be used."
    - The BoD

    I know Dany is Jon's Aunt but aren't they related in another way since her parents were brother and sister?

    Wet stuff on the red stuff.

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    Whoever asnwers this question correctly has some explaining to do.

    15 Straight

    I don't believe so because the mad king and his sister were at the same level in family relationships. They are only Jons grandparents and they are only Danys parents. There is no cousin relationship or brother/sister relationship between Dany and Jon because of this. There is only the aunt nephew relationship. Keeping marriage between brothers and sisters keeps it simple.

    Now if Dany and Jon have kids, there may be some additional relationships added as Dany and Jon are not on the same immediate family level (i.e. brother and sister). The kids would be cousins and sons/daughters of Jon. They would be some sort of extended family cousin relationship (1st/2nd cousins, once/twice removed kind of thing) and the sons/daughters of Dany.

    Aren't they Danys parents and Aunt and Uncle?

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    If your father's sister is your aunt, but also is your mother, does that make your siblings your cousins?

    edited for clarity

    "Why gobble gobble chumps asks such good questions, I will never know." - TheFifthFuller

    Yeah that is the question. I answered based on drawing the short lineage of the family. I didn't think of danys parents as aunt and uncle as well because it just doesn't make sense that they are an aunt/uncle.

    Just go to Morgantown and ask?

    Another white bronco? The first one didn't go too far.

    Morgantown be like:

    via GIPHY

    .

    .
    .and Whit puts on his batting gloves and steps up to the plate....

    There is another way they are related, but it would necessarily be further than aunt/nephew. Because Rhaella and Mad King Aerys II were brother and sister, Daenerys and Rhaegar could be considered cousins (in addition to siblings), which would make Jon and Dany first cousins, once removed.

    https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Targaryen

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin

    First cousins once removed
    A person shares a first cousins once removed relationship with their parents' cousins and their cousins' children.

    If you're not sure if my comment warrants a "/s", it probably does.

    Dany needs #'s. Will Daario return with the 2nd Sons?

    Or will the Golden Company flip on Cersei?

    Unless the Scorpions are plentiful (or plot drivenly accurate) two dragons should be more than enough to roast any number of regular troops. Additionally, while they likely wouldn't do this on the show, she could also just run a series of short, night time raids with her dragons and chip away chunks from their armies/ranks over time. There really wouldn't be much of answer for this plan other than praying you can shoot one in the dark.

    The Daario thing is certainly a fun thought. I'm not sure how viable that is as an option the way they left things. Perhaps we will get some genius-esque plan where Dany/Tyrion/Varys foresaw the Golden Company move and had Daario/2nd sons infiltrate their ranks or follow behind them. Though I'm not sure they will bring that plotline back at all, it's hard to know when there could be non-story related factors like being able to get actors back on set, etc.

    Another option I've been thinking about recently is a possible intervention by the Iron Bank. It's been stated that they are neutral, and pick their war loans based on who will likely win. The Lannister's have run up quite a hefty line of credit from them and with the war on the dead won and Dany still having her dragons, they may want to call Cersei's note. That would be quite a twist to see what that would look like if they turned on Cersei.

    There really wouldn't be much of answer for this plan other than praying you can shoot one in the dark.

    Well, there is that really big cone of fire that points right back to the dragon's mouth. Shouldn't be that hard to determine the dragon's location when he's (or she's? do we know the dragons' genders?) breathing fire.

    If you're not sure if my comment warrants a "/s", it probably does.

    you can tell where the dragon shot fire from pretty easily, but by the time you aim and fire a ballista, it's probably moved.

    "Why gobble gobble chumps asks such good questions, I will never know." - TheFifthFuller

    True. Maybe their ballista operators just need to understand the concept of "leading a target".

    If you're not sure if my comment warrants a "/s", it probably does.

    The reason I said "plot drivenly accurate" is exactly this. A dragon is a fast moving aerial target. It would be ridiculous to assume a remotely high hit rate on a fast moving target at varying distances, no matter how good you are at "leading a target." Anyone operating the scorpion would also need to be very familiar with how fast, and how far they can expect the ballista arrow to go. When does it start losing velocity rapidly, when does it start to dip. We're talking about needing to be both very, very good at leading a target and also very, very familiar with the physics of the weapon.

    My point being that I highly doubt the viability, in realistic terms, of ever hitting one of the dragons with these ballistas. That doesn't mean it won't happen in a tv show, where they might want to hit one for plot purposes.

    Bronn already hit Drogon with the first scorpion. Granted, Drogon was coming at him head-on so it was a straight shot. Then too, Bronn is a pretty amazing marksman from what we've seen, so your typical Lannister soldier is not likely going to have the same success, even with an "easy" shot.

    Another option I've been thinking about recently is a possible intervention by the Iron Bank. It's been stated that they are neutral, and pick their war loans based on who will likely win. The Lannister's have run up quite a hefty line of credit from them and with the war on the dead won and Dany still having her dragons, they may want to call Cersei's note. That would be quite a twist to see what that would look like if they turned on Cersei.

    What would be more likely? That they turn on the Lannisters or throw in more heavily with them?

    I've read somewhere STTEO "If you borrow $1,000, the bank owns you. If you borrow $10,000,000, you own the bank.", meaning that people who owe large amounts to a bank can influence the bank's actions, because of the bank's risk of the borrower defaulting on such a large sum. They may be too heavily invested with the Lannisters to be able to handle a scenario where the Lannisters lose and therefore aren't able to pay them back.

    If you're not sure if my comment warrants a "/s", it probably does.

    I do wonder though that if the find out the secret that the gold mine beneath Castaly Rock has run dry and the Lannisters have no way of paying them back. I think this was revealed by Tywin in one of the episodes before Tyrian shot him with the cross bow, which is why they were leaning so heavily on the alliance with House Tyrell, the second most wealthy family in Westeros.

    Cersei completely paid off the Iron Throne / Lannister / Baratheon debt toward the end of season 7. She basically raided Highgarden & The Reach for all their riches to do so. That sets up the Iron Bank being willing to bankroll her hiring the Golden Company. The Iron Banker even points her toward the Golden Company as an effective and reliable mercenary army.

    However I think it was pretty clear that when the Iron Banker complimented her on being so much more effective than her father, was actually being hugely sarcastic because by paying back everything in one lump sum, Cersei lifted her hold on the Iron Bank and it's further resources. Just like you said, by being 10,000,000 in debt, she had the bank under her thumb, not the other way around. The Iron Bank was going to make sure she survived and succeeded so she could pay them back.

    By zeroing the debt, sure she makes it "easy" for the Iron Bank to issue her a fresh loan to hire the Golden Company. (or maybe she just takes their recommendation on who to hire, I don't quite remember the all details of that conversation) But it also makes it easy for the Iron Bank to back another faction that they trust more to be a long-term profit center. Cersei has shown herself to be capricious, vindictive and kinda ignorant of long-term consequences - not a great personality traits for a reliable long term business partner. If she was actually smart, she'd set up a payment plan with the Bank (and stick with it), and keep the bank on the hook for additional resources as needed.

    Great points. I mistakenly thought the Lannister's lost most of the Highgarden gold during the dragon attack.

    Before Dany roasts a good chunk of the Lannister army with the dragons, there was kind of a throwaway line from Randyll Tarly to Jaime Lannister where he was reporting 'the gold has all made it safely inside the walls of Kings Landing'

    Who owns the debt in this situation? Cersei? The Lannister family? The city of Kings landing? Westeros?

    Recruit Prosim

    The Crown (the 7 kingdoms / the iron throne)

    When Tyrion takes over as Master of Coin there's a conversation where hes going through the books lamenting the poor fiscal management of Littlefinger and crazy spending habits of King Robert. He mentions a couple of big debts on the books - several million owed to the Lannister family and a 10 million owed to the Iron Bank. And he says something about the Iron Bank always collecting, I think it's the first mention in the TV show of the Iron Bank's fearsome reputation for collecting on debts.

    Also, I think it's implied or mentioned at some point that part of what Tywin Lannister had loaned to the Crown was borrowed from the Iron Bank to keep up the appearance that House Lannister was still very rich, when in reality their mines were tapped out and their cash reserves were running low. So Cersei as the Crown and the head of house Lannister would be responsible for both debts.

    plot drivenly accurate

    Leg for calling this one

    Someone on Reddit said that in WWII, boats targeting aircraft only hit their target 4% of the time. I have no idea if this stat is accurate, but I think we can all agree that elevation is a significant advantage, especially in a pre-technology time period like GoT.

    Twitter me

    I alluded to this earlier. Seems like a good possibility with the way things left off with Daario and Dany. Certainly his story isn't over. Maybe the 2nd Sons and Yara ride in ala the Nights of the Vale did during the Battle of the Bastards.

    Tyrod did it Mikey, Tyrod did it!!

    Deus ex machina

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    yara ex machina

    Also where are the Dornish and the riverlanders? Anyone left from the stormlands after Blackwater Bay? Funny how literally every other house (except the smooth brained Iron Islanders) and a shit ton of people from Essos have been against the Lannister's yet theyve still controlled the throne since season 1

    The Dornish are probably just keeping to themselves, pretty normal for them. No doubt a lot of internal politics and in-fighting over who takes over after the Martells got wiped out. Slight chance of some kind of revenge plot going on against Cersei & House Lannister.

    Stormlands, Reach and Riverlands are very depleted militarily and anyone remaining is either tacitly loyal to the Crown & Cersei or just keeping their heads down trying to sort out succession for the vacant lordships in those areas (e.g. Tullys deposed, then Freys wiped out, Tyrells deposed/wiped out and then Tarlys wiped out)

    Part of me is starting to believe that the Night King is not actually dead.

    Prophecy: "No-one can kill the Night King". No-one (Arya) did kill the Night King. Or maybe Jon somehow already having been dead once before may be an advantage ? Who knows with this show.

    They'll probably have to go burn the original God's wood where he was originally was created.

    This is going to be great for the ACC.

    Lord Gendry! Now good job D and D got me feeling good. Now crush it the best way you can.

    I knew I had faith in you to tear me apart at the threads. Thanks D and D.

    Not loving the direction they are going in. I am withholding judgement until the end. I will say it's setting up for episode 5 to be pretty nuts, but hopefully not shocking for shock value, which I think much of this episode was.

    Edit: remember me talking about plot-driven accuracy? First three dead on hits from around a corner? The next 60 miss?

    2nd edit: this is the first time I can remember genuinely not feeling great about the show after an episode. I've been upset, shocked, horrified, thrilled, and stoked, but all in the right ways. The Red Wedding was horrifying to watch, but it made sense and the end result was me saying, "holy shit, this show is incredible." This episode I felt sad about the state of the show. Like I said, I will fight to withhold judgement until the end, but this is the worst feeling I've had after an episode. For example, Missandei's last words being a call to extreme violence, as a person who is non-violent, just strikes me in all the wrong ways. I'm sure some didn't feel this way, and my opinion is ultimately meaningless, but that's my piece.

    Just an FYI in case you or anyone else is curious, apparently the end leaked online today. There were posts on reddit that had details of tonight's episode and the final two. I didn't read the final 2 but the spoilers for episode 4 were dead on so it looks like its legit. Scanning the general reaction, its been a mix of surprise and pissed

    Yeah, I heard about that.

    Could you provide a link? Just scanned down through r/gameofthrones, and everything is SPOILER-tagged, so I can't find the post you're talking about.

    To clarify, I don't want to read it, but my wife (the one who fast-forwarded through to the end of S8E3) is the type who likes to know stuff beforehand, so I figure I'd send her the link.

    If you're not sure if my comment warrants a "/s", it probably does.

    If you want to read the final 3 episode leaks head to /r/freefolk Beware though, there are no spoiler tags on /r/freefolk and there is open discussion in multiple threads about what the leaks contained. So stay away if you don't want to risk all being revealed.

    I now wish I'd never asked. Ugh.

    If you're not sure if my comment warrants a "/s", it probably does.

    Well, Missandei may herself be non-violent but she's never had any qualms or remorse for Dany killing shitloads of people, or Grey Worm for that matter. I don't see how this is any different. She knows she's going to die and she knows Dany's heart, so with her last words she lets her know that she is still with her Queen. All true to character.

    I agree with this. She knows shits about to get nasty so she's telling Dany that she better unleash fire and fury.

    Tyrod did it Mikey, Tyrod did it!!

    Was the AssPocket household the only one yelling for her to grab Cersei when she took her by the arm and jump off the wall? Missandei had to know she was going to die at that point. I would have made my death mean something if at all possible. I know that would have thrown a wrench in the plot for the rest of the show, but damn.

    "How the ass pocket will be used, I do not know. Alls I know is, the ass pocket will be used."
    - The BoD

    I wanted to see her drop down, scissor her legs through Cersei's, and trip her off the wall, but maybe that's because I had just finished watching The Karate Kid with my daughters.

    If you're not sure if my comment warrants a "/s", it probably does.

    Mrs. JASONinARLINGTON was screaming the same.

    Tyrod did it Mikey, Tyrod did it!!

    I keep seeing this suggestion, but it just doesn't make any sense. If she had killed Cersei, the archers and scorpions would have unloaded on Dany, Tyrion, and the rest of their squad at the gate.

    "For those who have passed, for those to come, reach for excellence."

    This is exactly what I was thinking. Plus I think the Mountain would catch her before she falls.

    Only, he was standing way too far back to grab them if she moved in an instant. He's known for strength, not speed after all.

    "How the ass pocket will be used, I do not know. Alls I know is, the ass pocket will be used."
    - The BoD

    On its face, your argument makes perfect sense. Sure, she would have likely killed her queen and her man, and she probably didn't think beyond that. But in the long term, the war would have been essentially over. No one fighting for Cersei has the influence to keep and maintain power.

    "How the ass pocket will be used, I do not know. Alls I know is, the ass pocket will be used."
    - The BoD

    I agree. The drama feels manufactured, not organic.

    I too take issue with how they killed the Dragon. Here's what they should've done:

    • Ax the whole arya vs sansa vs little finger subplot from Season 7.
    • Keep little finger around, and have him taking meticulous notes on how the dragons fly, take off, battle strategy, etc.
    • Little finger relays that info to Cersi in exchange for Herrenhal.
    • Qyburn does tests and tests and tests setting up the scurpions in different locations, at different heights, etc.
    • There's one in a cave off of a cliff or something that takes out one of the dragons.

    This way they avoid the student arya vs sansa storyline from season 7, AND they make a somewhat more believable way of killing the dragon.

    Twitter me

    Well that's going to take awhile to process the near future implications of that episode.

    Wet stuff on the red stuff.

    Join us in the Key Players Club

    Cersei has to be the most hated villain of ever.

    Poor Grey Worm. That was a dirty move. At first I wanted Arya to rip Cersei's throat out but I hope he gets a shot to take her down.

    I feel like Dany has been pushed over the edge of crazy. The tension between Dany and Sansa/Arya isn't going to just end. So I don't see this ending well for Jon. Someone close to him is gone, if not he himself.

    Tyrod did it Mikey, Tyrod did it!!

    On 2nd thought, Grey Worm and The Hound will tag team The Mountain.

    Tyrod did it Mikey, Tyrod did it!!

    Oh we burning this MFer to the ground now

    Dozens of scorpions > one dragon.

    The only chance at victory is Arya/Jaime killing Cersei.

    Emilia Clarke said that episode 5 was gonna be "bigger" than the Winterfell Battle...I'm inclined to believe her after that. Whew!

    Amateur superstar and idiot extraordinaire.

    Weird that misande would say something to suggest violence in that moment dunno where we are heading now but it's not looking good

    Directions from Blacksburg to whoville, go north till you smell it then go east until you step in it

    We are so on the same page with the Missandei thing. I mentioned it above but it hit me in all the wrong ways. Seemed like a cheap plot device to anger Dany, and a complete betrayal of her character.

    More I stew on it maybe it's all part of cersis plan really maybe she told her to say that as an attempt to drive her mad but then again I don't think that she would say it if cersi had told her too. The whole thing was definitely an attempt to enrage dany and hope she did something stupid like fly at her then. Got a feeling someone's gonna have to do one hell of a job to curve her anger or we're about to get the mad queen ending I feared the directors might pick just for shock value

    Directions from Blacksburg to whoville, go north till you smell it then go east until you step in it

    We share the same fear. It would be disappointing on so many levels. I understand it's difficult to end something like this, but it feels like the cheapest path to maximum shock value.

    Why easy? Parents were brother and sister, and dad was nuts, her brother practically molested her and then sold her off, she was raped by her husband, then lost that husband and baby, has seen friends die, seen people who loved her die, has lost two dragons which have a connection like children to her. This has all the recipe of driving anyone mad.

    Wet stuff on the red stuff.

    Join us in the Key Players Club

    which is why she won't go all loco.. that is what everyone is expecting so B&W will subvert our expectations and she'll pledge allegiance to her nephew.

    Dany being a "mad queen" wouldn't be just for shock value though. If you really think back, the seeds for it have been there all along and its been growing the closer she gets to the Iron Throne. She's always had violent impulses but its been her advisors around her that's kept her in check, but as we've seen, she's losing them (to death) and the ones that she has that are still alive she's lost trust in.

    Maybe Dany will be so angry she'll actually apply some well-reasoned and effective aerial tactics when flying Drogon into battle. She's lost 2 dragons because she tends just derp along in a straight line assuming nobody has any weapons powerful enough to hurt her dragons from the ground.

    Well she did fly around Essos conquering each city without any of the masters apparently knowing what a ballista is.

    Joffrey, Cersei, Ilyn Payne, the Hound, Jeff Jagodzinski, Paul Johnson, Pat Narduzzi.

    Jamie is a night slayer too.

    3-DCA854-B-63-D2-4847-9-DE8-E1724-DE857-B7

    Tyrod did it Mikey, Tyrod did it!!

    Kind of annoyed by the whole Dany vs John drama. She's being kind of a bitch about it but even so why is everyone so sure Jon would be a better ruler? He'd literally be Ned Stark 2.0. He'd never able to mask his emotions to outwit his enemies. Dany at least is smart enough to run a kingdom while keeping the crown.

    And how about Varys pretending to serve the realm, lmao you serious chief? Key piece in starting the Stark vs Lannister war that killed tens of thousands, let Renly run off and raise and army, then afterwards helped a random new conquerer who killed thousands more. Nice job buddy

    Not sure about Dany being able to run a kingdom. She's a conqueror not a ruler. Look at the mess in Meereen. Maybe in the books she was better at it.

    I agree with Jon not being clever enough though. As Tyrion suggests the best would be they rule together, though that definitely isn't going to happen.

    Agree on Varys. Dude is a rat jumping from ship to ship.

    The part of this that annoyed me the most was the Jon as the natural leader of men bit. Let's quickly review the great leader's track record.
    Was totally getting wiped out at the BoftheB when he was rescued by his SISTER SANSA.
    Was about to get wiped out getting a wight when he was rescued by his AUNT DANY.
    Had managed to completely lose the BofWinterfell when he was rescued by his SISTER ARYA.
    Yeah, who wouldn't want to follow a leader of men with that track record?

    Did enjoy Cercei's smirking though knowing that her plan to keep the gates open would let in the world's greatest unstoppable assassin. Was fantasizing about Arya killing Qyburn, assuming his identity, strolling in to see Cercei, strolling out, then when Cercei do