OT: Game of Thrones final season (episode discussion)

I figure we might as well get one of these going so we can discuss each episode as it airs and check the status of our guesses from the previous thread.

For starters, it was great just to have GoT back. When the intro music started playing I was lit. There were a few things I didn't particularly like about the episode (looking at you 'stink eye' from a dragon), just felt a little too cheesy for Thrones.

I really enjoyed that they have started to get the reunions and important revelations going right out of the gate rather than have them hanging over the short season. The most important being Sam telling Jon who is really is (and what I think may in fact be the most important line of the whole episode when he asks him if he thinks Dany would give up her crown to save her people)

Jaime already arriving at Winterfell and Bran and him sharing a look - great.
Tyrion and Sansa talking about their previous (and I guess technically still in force?) wedding.
Arya and Jon sharing one of the few genuinely happy moments the series has ever had was fantastic. Her line about using Needle "once or twice" was excellent
Learning that Tormund and Edd both made it off the wall alive
Arya, The Hound, and Gendry talking together, and seeing that Gendry can make dragonglass weapons

Poor Ned Umber...although that was a nice creepy scene to close out the episode

All in all I expected it to be a set up episode, and for the most part it was the characters reuniting and explaining their various motivations. I was fine with that to set up the bigger events coming.

My one updated theory from what we saw is I think they are dropping a number of hints that Bran and the Night King are super connected, if not outright Bran = The Night King. My thinking is that we keep seeing those spiral shaped patterns left by NK (Ned Umber, the horses at the Fist of the First Men, etc). We also keep seeing those spiral patterns left by the Children of the Forest (in the caverns below Dragonstone, as they zoom above the weirwood when they created the NK in the first place).

We don't know if there are any Children left, but we do know one "something like a man" that is closely connected with them now. I doubt the NK is leaving the spirals as a warning, as everyone already knows that bad shit is headed their way. Its some other kind of message. Perhaps Bran's way of saying who he is.

DISCLAIMER: Forum topics may not have been written or edited by The Key Play staff.


The whole dragon riding sequence was unnecessary and if they wanted to add fuel to the R+L=J fire they should have had John ride a dragon last season before the cat was let out of the bag. I feel like Sam better have a copy of the journal where the R & L wedding was noted or he is going to look like Ned Stark trying to usurp a queen with some little known info from a book and visions from Bran, especially after the scene where Danny informs him she BBQ'd his family.

Arya's dagger must have some future significance because every major character she reunited with pointed it out. My guess is it the weapon that takes down the Night King. I did not in rewatching some of the episodes this past week that the Red Woman (whatever her name is) after buying Gendry told him that he would build up and take down kings. He is currently building up a weapons supply for one king to try to take down another.

Come to Blacksburg and see what the Hokie Pokie is really all about

They have been commenting on the dagger a lot, and it featured prominently in the storyline (used to frame Tyrion, etc) earlier as well. I think you may be onto something with Arya likely taking out an important foe with it, or at least it having a critical role.

The whole dragon riding sequence was unnecessary and if they wanted to add fuel to the R+L=J fire they should have had John ride a dragon last season before the cat was let out of the bag.

I think this scene did 2 things:

  • Makes Jon more likely to believe he's a targarian
  • Furthers the love story (for lack of a better term?) between Jon and Dany.

    Twitter me

    The R+L=J theory had such strong wheels that they almost had to do it the way they did. It ended up working out because the reveal that Rhaegar was his father wasn't even the biggest reveal of the show since Rhaegar and Lyanna were actually married.

    I think they knew the theory was prevalent but left it out there the way they did then dropped the bomb in S7E5 so casually.

    I have no idea why my username is VT_Warthog.

    Arkansas blew a 24-0 lead in the Belk Bowl.

    Bran and the NK being linked in some way adds to Arya's dagger being significant given that it was used in Brans attempted assassination.

    And Bran had it and gave it to Arya. Who knows what he has seen and if he was putting something into motion.

    Come to Blacksburg and see what the Hokie Pokie is really all about

    what I think may in fact be the most important line of the whole episode when he asks him if he thinks Dany would give up her crown to save her people

    The negativity towards Dany (from the viewers of the show, NOT the characters within the show) is a little unsettling to me. She has made mistakes just like every character in the show, likening her to the mad king in conversations (Varys-Tyrion discussions) seem like just a way to build a little extra drama into the pot. The fact that she was so willing to put her lifelong goal of reclaiming the throne on hold to stop the white walkers is a huge difference, and shows again where her true loyalties lie which is to the people she feels responsible for. She has proven over and over again that she is a liberator more than anything. I think too many people have a Jon-centric view of the show and it's just not that simple. The show's strength is in its multiple main characters.

    I think that scene and the reunions/dragon riding exemplify EXACTLY what these first two episodes will consist of: Fan appeasing moments (reunions/Dany and Jon riding dragons together), and tedious drama [Sam suddenly caring about his dad who hates him and that he himself despises, appealing that Jon should be the ruler and they should turn on Dany (worst idea in the entire show)] to make the episodes feel less like the setup episodes that they clearly are. It's likely that not much other than what I listed above will happen in episode 2 either. I don't think this will even be an issue. It's all just buying time while they setup the Battle of Winterfell which is likely to be episode 3.

    I didn't take that scene as Sam particularly caring that much about his father. His reaction to hearing about Dickon getting roasted was much more pronounced than hearing about his dad. He basically said his dad dying was fine because his brother would be the ruler than. John Bradley I thought did a nice job in the scene conveying that.

    As for the negativity towards Dany, I think it was established well enough. The Northerners dislike outsiders to begin with, and now they have not just an outsider, but a Targaryen that also happens to be the daughter of Mad King that murdered several prominent Starks, showing up at their home with the guy that they declared to be king with his knee bent. I would have thought it poor writing if almost everyone wasn't pissed off at her.

    The North Remembers

    I mean he was already on the verge of crying when he heard about his dad. I agree completely that he was likely much more upset about Dickon. Either way, trying to suddenly stake a claim to the throne before fighting the white walkers would be the single worst timed decisions in the show. If they aren't all fighting together they are guaranteed to lose that fight. Sam suggesting that is understandable within the emotion of the moment, but it's an awful idea and it also goes against the constant running theme that Jon has no interest in being the king. Every time he is in a position of power he either breaks all the rules (Lord Commander) and gets mutineed, or he immediately cedes the power to someone he deems more important, as his primary goal is to protect everyone he loves from the Night King. He is not meant to be a traditional leader and has no interest in it.

    In regards to the negativity, I meant from the fanbase not within the characters inside the show. The politics of the North make their uneasiness and general lack of trust make so much sense. I agree completely with that point, I just should have been more clear about what I was talking about.

    Gotcha on the Dany point. Yeah I do not understand any negativity on a meta sense. I think it will be interesting to see how that develops, as I tend to think we will not see Jon and Dany together by the end of the series. Dany has and always will be focused on ruling Westeros. This detour to combat the Walkers makes sense in her character because she is practical enough to know that that rule would be short lived if the Walkers defeat everybody else first.

    I'm not sure why exactly, I'm hoping its not because one of them (Jon most likely) dies. But between finding out his lineage (although Dany might not have as much of an issue there as Targaryens kept things in the family all the time) or their differences on what things should look like if/when then they defeat the Night King.

    Gotcha on the Dany point. Yeah I do not understand any negativity on a meta sense.

    probably because people forget that the viewers know more about what's actually happening than the characters do.

    "Why gobble gobble chumps asks such good questions, I will never know." - TheFifthFuller

    I actually think Dany's history suggests she wouldn't end up ruling the seven kingdoms as status quo if she ever even gets the chance to do so. She has proven time and time again that as soon as she gains a position of power, she immediately frees everyone and only wants them to follow her if they choose to. She is a liberator first, conqueror second, and leader third. I also think all the talk of breaking the wheel suggests a situation where (if she ever gets the chance) she would be more likely to completely deconstruct the concept of one ruler of the seven kingdoms, rather than fall in line with all the other rulers before her. Either way, that's what I want to happen, and there's no scenario I'd like more if this happened with Jon by her side.

    That said, I agree that it's very likely that things don't end well for one or both of them. Whether it's a falling out between them or not, as I do think there is a scenario where they care about each other to the end, it just seems likely given GRRM's history that one or both them will die at some point this season. It also could make for some really incredible moments. I also don't think anyone will sit on the Iron Throne at the end of the series in the traditional sense. I think the Seven Kingdoms are deconstructed and if anyone actually is literally sitting there at the end, I imagine it would be moreso symbolic than as the ruler of the seven kingdoms.

    Perhaps the goal of the White Walkers is to simply get rid of the existing power structure in Westeros when necessary?

    The last time they showed up it forced a bunch of disparate groups that didn't trust each other to come together. And frankly, given what we have seen the Night King be able to do, it makes sense that perhaps they weren't as much defeated during the Long Night, but simply left back to the far north until it was necessary for them to come back after their goal was accomplished.

    I still have not gotten the sense that the NK is simply out there to eradicate everyone, because it seems like he could do it relatively easily at any time.

    I think you're onto something with the Night King having motivations that might not be "eradicate everything." He could simply be looking for Bran, for one example.

    Also for anyone who wants, in my opinion the best, online content for explanations and callback breakdowns you should check out "Alt Shift X" on YouTube. Incredibly well done videos with tons of show/book context explained and used to project future possibilities. He recently made a video about the historical relationships between Starks and the White Walkers.

    A theory I saw was to stop a Valyrian Doom type eruption from destroying Westeros. Hence a song of ice and fire

    Recruit Prosim

    Dany is probably already pregnant.
    Jon and Dany are both Targaryan and Jon is a Stark as well, wargs with a wolf.

    Their daughter will rule.

    Everyone else is dead, of import.

    This is going to be great for the ACC.

    My read on Dany is: conquerer first; liberator second; leader/ruler third.

    I think the mad queen conversation is important. Her major flaw is her temper. I think the scene where she finds that she killed Samwell's family will be relevant later. I think it might give her pause before she kills someone, or it might make Sam not trust her.

    Speaking of this scene, I didn't particularly like the way they did it. The script/situation felt forced to me. I wish she didn't say anything to Sam, and she just mentioned it to Jorah after Samwell left, and then Sam found out what happened in a later scene.

    Twitter me

    I think the conversation serves a purpose and is important, but I don't think she is going to be become like the Mad King as many people seem to think.

    If for no other reason than she knows that tale and understands nobody would follow her if she went that route.

    I thinmk she wants to be good but she is displaying some of the same characteristics as her father. She is paranoid and now that the cats out of the bag about Jon, I think it may send her over the top. She had to eb stopped by Mornmont from firing Tyrian and she always suspects his loyalties still lye with the Lannisters. She had a visceral reaction to Jon telling her who he was and I think the post above pointed to the similarities to how Ned was treated when he discovered to the truth about the Lannister children. She is power hungry and in the end she will stop at nothing to sit on the iron throne.


    A friend point out to me that almost all of the good that Dany has done has been due to the guidance of her advisory panel. She almost never comes to these things on her own. If left to her own devices, may have scorched King's landing 3 seasons ago.

    I always have trouble articulating my thoughts after an episode... nonetheless:

    Teared up a little bit at the Jon and Arya reunion. Her reunion with Gendry was nice too, although I'm pretty sure the writers had some ulterior motives with her weapon. I'm starting to dig the theory that she kills the night king.

    I think Jon knowing he is the true heir to the iron throne will really piss Dany off. She will think he has hidden it from her for awhile. When Sansa asked if he bent the knee for the north or because he loved her I thought for sure he did it for the north first. I guess they aren't mutually exclusive though.

    Bran is a little freak just hanging around Winterfell. I really don't know what to make of him in his current state. Part of me loves it because he is just so detached and so pivotal, part of me hates it because his story was compelling before he became a weirdo.

    Jamie's storyline is my favorite (Theon's a close second). The Episode 2 preview really excited me because he's almost in a bit of a no-man's land. He left the woman he loved (albeit his sister) for this cause. Now it seems uncertain that they will welcome him. Really cheering for him now.

    Think Bron betrays Cersei and takes Tyrion's offer to double what she's offering him. Cersei is going to say her baby is Euron's. I also feel like Cleganebowl odds took a hit yesterday.

    Overall it was an exciting first episode. Only five more to go. Bittersweet.

    I have no idea why my username is VT_Warthog.

    Arkansas blew a 24-0 lead in the Belk Bowl.

    I think the whole thing with Bronn was more a device to get him to Winterfell when shit hits the fan. There wouldn't have been another logical reason really otherwise. I see him fighting alongside everyone when the battle happens. Although his whole character is about his own personal enrichment, we have seen him do things out of care and concern for people he likes with no monetary incentive (staring down a full grown dragon and shooting him comes to mind)

    Ned Umber's graphic scene at the end seems like a recreation of the scene when the NK was created by the Children of the Forest. He has a spear or knife stabbed through his chest holding him up against the wall. This is a message to Bran but I cant figure out what he's trying to convey.

    The Night King (and the White Walkers, more generally) have consistently used the Children's imagery throughout the series, even dating back to the first episode. Their creation is derived from the Children's magic (or the Old Gods) and they are using that imagery.

    What struck me about Ned Umber was that he was pierced through the chest in the middle of the spiral. Recall Bran's vision of the creation of the Night King. He was stabbed through the chest with dragonglass while tied to a weirwood tree in the middle of a spiral of rocks. The Night King is either creating these scenes as a message or is somehow deriving power from them.

    To follow up on the symbol topic, for those interested, the episode's director explained what they mean:

    "As we saw with Bran and the Three-Eyed Raven," Hill begins, referring to one of the most consequential yet oft-overlooked visions in season six's 'The Door', "The spiral pattern was sacred to the Children of the Forest, who created the Night King by sacrificing a captured man in a spiral 'henge of stones.' The Night King then adopted the symbol as a sort of blasphemy, like Satan with the upside-down cross."


    Best part is Bronn getting hit with the "poor girl...the pox will take her within the year.....Which one?!"

    Another white bronco? The first one didn't go too far.

    So, in that same scene - the women have the following conversation:

    "That boy, Eddie?"
    "The ginger"
    "That's him; came back with his face burnt right off. He's got no eyelids now."
    "How does he sleep with no eyelids?"

    A ginger Lannister soldier named Eddie...

    I get that they needed a set up episode, where every speculation we essentially already knew, becomes a matter of fact, but man did that feel like a waste of an episode for a series that only has 5 left. I'm just worried that everything is going to feel so rushed at the end to make sure they clean up all the storylines.

    15 Straight

    I initially thought that too, but consider the fact that in one episode we got as much progress as most entire seasons have made. We're already on track for essentially "bonus" episodes, because the series was only intended for 70 episodes (7 seasons of 10), but they decided to extend it to a total of 73. After getting all the background basically out of the way in one episode, the remainder of the season should be action and resolution of storylines.

    I like the perspective of looking at the last three episodes as a "bonus". It's pretty much a foregone conclusion that the battle for winterfell between the living and the dead will be the entirety of episode 3, so that last three episodes are the "bonus". Good eye on that.

    Also keep in mind that we're getting some bonus time too.

    Ep 1 was 54 minutes, Ep 2 is 58 minutes, then Ep 3 is 82 minutes, Ep 4 is 78 minutes, and Ep 5 & 6 are 80 minutes. If you look at total run-time, this is more like a 7.5 episode season, just condensed into fewer

    Now finish up them taters; I'm gonna go fondle my sweaters.

    Somebody put a bell on him!

    I posted this on the Trailer thread earlier but thought I might have a better shot at an answer here.

    So in the intro there was a graphic on the side of the rotating rings with a lion on the left looking at what appears to be some 4 legged thing that had been hanged and shot with arrows while further right was some person/white walker holding a wolf's head. Anyone have an ideas about it? What was the thing in the middle?

    Come to Blacksburg and see what the Hokie Pokie is really all about

    That was depicting the Red Wedding. The Lion (with the help of the Boltons and Freys) beheading the wolf.

    The center is the headless wolf full of arrows.

    The other images are...

    The Night King destroying the wall:

    Birth of Dany's Dragons:

    Full intro:

    I thought that might be a throwback to earlier story, but couldn't make out the images well enough and knew that Rob wasn't hanged (which is how the middle image looked to me) which threw me.

    Come to Blacksburg and see what the Hokie Pokie is really all about

    It's all symbolic. The body is hanging from the bridge between the two towers of The Twins

    But if you actually look at the Twins, the distance and height of the bridge much different.

    Also, if you look closely - the lion has a fish in its mouth, which is the sigil for House Tully, Catelyn Stark's family's house.

    I think the man on the right symbolizes the Bolton's, whose sigil is the flayed man, but I guess they can't use that in a depiction of an actual Bolton.

    Is this a safe place to comment? I need to make sure Bran isn't going to pop up randomly and weird everyone out.

    I think Gendry and Arya end up hooking up.

    There. That's my contribution.

    Tyrod did it Mikey, Tyrod did it!!

    is she even legal now ?

    She turned 22 today (the actress at least)

    22, wow she looks way younger

    I'm pretty sure ~8 years have past within the story so whatever age she was in the story S1 plus 8ish

    I don't think they operate under any kind of consent law in Westeros.

    If so, Walter Frey and Craster wouldn't be allowed within 250' of a Chuck E Cheese.

    Tyrod did it Mikey, Tyrod did it!!

    Somehow I just never thought of Arya as marriage material.

    So, she's either the "Fuck" or "Kill" option for you. I gotta say, if it's the latter, good luck with that.

    If you're not sure if my comment warrants a "/s", it probably does.

    No, that's not the meaning at all I was shooting for. She's much too young during most of this series and far too belligerent to be thinking about marriage yet. Her purpose in life is pointing more to ending lives than making lives at this point in the story.

    BINGO!!!! this episode is all about doing the deed

    Called it

    Tyrod did it Mikey, Tyrod did it!!

    Anyone else notice that Mac from It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia was one of the Greyjoy's that got killed by Theon and crew? He confirmed it on Instagram today.

    Now I'm just thinking of all the IASIP characters in GoT.

    Dennis calls Cersei a bird or a 'goddamn bitch' and immediately gets killed for it. Charlie ties up Tyrion and claims he caught another leprechaun, then rides Drogon since he knows Dragons don't eat people, Dee gets swarmed by wights as Frank leaves her behind to save himself. Cricket finds out he's been living with the army of the dead the whole time ("I guess they thought I looked scarred and dead enough that I was one of them. Much nicer than the dogs"). Frank, always packing his piece, shoots the Night King.

    Here lies It's a Stroman Jersey I Swear, surpassed in life by no one because he intercepted it.

    I thought the Bran/Jamie stare down at the end was perfect

    "Oh that time I paralyzed you? It was just a prank bro. Please don't do some fucked up worg shit to me."

    "For those who have passed, for those to come, reach for excellence."

    The best I have seen so far is Jaime looking at Bran in the wheelchair and saying "Need a push?" and Bran asking back "Yeah, need a hand?"

    I still don't understand it, but Bran could always pull a Hold-the-Door on Jaime right?

    Come to Blacksburg and see what the Hokie Pokie is really all about

    I really believe that Dany is going to demand that Sansa bend the knee and when she doesn't Dany is going to try to execute her and Jon is going to step in to save her. It seemed that Dany made a veiled threat when she was talking about how Sansa treated her when they met.

    "Sooner or later, if man is ever to be worthy of his destiny, we must fill our heart with tolerance."
    -Stan Lee

    "Never half-ass two things. Whole-ass one thing."
    -Ron Swanson

    "11-0, bro"
    -Hunter Carpenter (probably)

    The actor that plays Beric said in an interview the other day a quote to the effect that people are going to be really surprised by how the show ends and it will likely be a finale that people discuss for a long long time

    That's not always a good thing. However, I definitely hope it is. I have faith in GRRM and the showrunners, but there's always a level of fear with shows with this much investment from the fans.

    Yes, I thought for a moment that the conversation could go a long time even if the ending sucks.

    But I think GRRM and the showrunners have earned my trust to this point, so I don't think they will botch the landing, even though it's basically impossible to please everyone

    Along those lines, the actress who plays Brienne said that after the finale, fans will need therapy.

    "I think just the show ending is going to send all of the world into professional help... I think it's going to make me incredibly emotional."

    Now finish up them taters; I'm gonna go fondle my sweaters.

    It's hard to tell if she means that as in needing therapy because of what happens, or simply that fans will be so upset its over.

    I think the latter.. that people will be emotional over the series wrapping up.

    I read it differently.

    "The actress was on the red carpet for her new film Welcome to Marwen, and Gwendoline told E! News that fans are "going to need therapy" once they actually see the season eight finale.

    Asked if that meant "someone dies", Gwendoline coyly responded: "I think just the show ending is going to send all of the world into professional help"

    Now finish up them taters; I'm gonna go fondle my sweaters.

    "just the show ending" = "no further episodes of the show produced, story completed, no more anticipating the next episode or speculating about the next season" will make people so sad they'll need therapy.

    It's going to be a reveal where they have been on the island from LOST the whole time, and those two dudes have been controlling the entire thing and Bran/Night King is actually Locke.

    This would be the top 10 ending of any show ever. Make epic series, get fans fully invested, close up a series that had one of the worst endings of all time 8 years later.

    (add if applicable) /s

    Some random thoughts:

    Have we seen the last of Ellaria Sand?

    What was the weapon that Arya asked Gendry to make? Looked like some sort of lax stick with a dragonglass projectile?


    .and Whit puts on his batting gloves and steps up to the plate....

    Have we seen the last of Ellaria Sand?

    With how badly the show treated the entire Dorne storyline, I hope so.

    What's wrong with the Dorne storyline? I'm not a book reader, so I thought it was fine.

    Twitter me

    It was significantly stripped down from the books to show, which in and of itself is understandable because of TV limitations.

    Its not so much that they took a lot of that story out, its that the parts they decided to keep were just kinda...stupid?

    I mean they make the Prince look like a clueless, weak moron, when in the book he has several plots going behind the scenes that involved Dany and "other" Targaryens. He may still prove to be those things when all is said and done book wise, but it seems unlikely he will just get punked by Ellaria so easily.

    His daughter is much more heavily involved in some dealings, and the main bodyguard (the large black guy) has a LOT more to work with.

    The Sandsnakes are awesome in the book and not nearly as cookie cutter as they made those characters for the show.

    Take away everything about Dorne and the only change is finding another way to kill Myrcella, who had no role in the series anyway. It was a completely unnecessary and sloppy side story for the TV series other than they wanted to have the Mountain v Viper scene.

    Joffrey, Cersei, Ilyn Payne, the Hound, Jeff Jagodzinski, Paul Johnson, Pat Narduzzi.

    Take away everything about Dorne and the only change is finding another way to kill Myrcella

    Someone had to mortally wound the mountain so badly that only qyburn could bring him back, but, I guess they could've found another character to do that.

    I didn't find it at all sloppy. I understand why book readers would be annoyed, but I don't think there was a problem with script otherwise.

    Twitter me

    Someone had to mortally wound the mountain so badly that only qyburn could bring him back, but, I guess they could've found another character to do that.

    Why though? He was a hulking butcher before and he turned into an... undead hulking butcher? I guess I don't see much value in his transformation either other than adding a little bit to the undead/mystical/fantasy element of things.

    Joffrey, Cersei, Ilyn Payne, the Hound, Jeff Jagodzinski, Paul Johnson, Pat Narduzzi.

    There are a couple angles on this. In the books, there are a lot more characters from Dorne and a much larger storyline. I acknowledge it's too much to do in the show, because you could have added an entire season's worth of episodes just to deal with Dorne.

    That aside, the problem I have is with the half-assed way they tried to incorporate the Dorne storyline and the horrible writing. It's the only part of the entire GoT series that I truly dislike. The inclusion of Oberyn Martell was actually really good, and I loved the Mountain vs. Red Viper, because that's a pivotal moment in the story. After that, everything about Dorne was just crammed in. Terrible lines ("you want a good girl, but you need a bad p*ssy" goes down in the hall of fame of worst lines ever, with the worst delivery ever) and unbelievable plot elements (Areo Hotah, one of the most feared warriors in the world and a giant of a man, goes down from a single dagger in the shoulder, even if poisoned?), and basically how flat the Sand Snakes were throughout. In the books, they are feared warriors, yet Euron offs two of them with no trouble.

    The entire involvement of Dorne consists of the Mountain being resurrected (cool, sure, whatever) and Myrcella dying. One could argue that Myrcella is irrelevant (she really is) but her death is necessary to end the line of succession of Robert's "children" to allow Cersei to accede to the throne. But truly, this whole thing could have been cleanly short-circuited if the gift that Cersei received (the necklace in the mouth of a viper) was the signal that Myrcella was dead. It would still have to be resolved why Cersei wouldn't send the Lannister army to Dorne, but that could be as easy as (1) no one has ever conquered Dorne, not even Aegon the Conqueror so it's dumb and (2) Cersei is a power-hungry, stone-cold bitch and now the Iron Throne is hers.

    Great points. Areo Hotah is nonexistent in the show, I had already forgot that he was in it.

    Tyrod did it Mikey, Tyrod did it!!

    the Mountain being resurrected (cool, sure, whatever)

    I'm hoping this is somewhat relevant in the story. I don't think he was resurrected for no reason. Maybe his undead skills will help him beat the Night King.

    Myrcella dying. One could argue that Myrcella is irrelevant (she really is) but her death is necessary to end the line of succession of Robert's "children" to allow Cersei to accede to the throne.

    She's also a vehicle to show how much Cersei cares about her children.

    Twitter me

    Really hope Bran wargs into the mountain and fucks shit up

    Here lies It's a Stroman Jersey I Swear, surpassed in life by no one because he intercepted it.

    Maybe his undead skills will help him beat the Night King.

    Or, in what would be an even cooler development, the Night King commands him to turn around and crush Cersei's throat, and he can't help but obey.

    If you're not sure if my comment warrants a "/s", it probably does.

    Now finish up them taters; I'm gonna go fondle my sweaters.

    I can't find the article, but I believe I read an interview last year where the actress confirmed that her character basically has an off screen death and won't be seen again


    Yeah, unless someone gets into that dungeon somehow and let's her go, she gone.

    Amateur superstar and idiot extraordinaire.

    Like Bronn. He had teh thing with her daughter that is also there and he knows how to stop the potion.


    Alright, what about the dead dragon? They are making plans to defend Winterfell and we aren't let in on the discussion of what to do about the zombie dragon. So are Jon and Dany headed out on the dragons and have some plan to kill the zombie dragon which is the implication towards the end? We aren't let in on that discussion, we just get to see Tyrion and the gang get drunk instead?
    I guess it makes for better drama, but it's like having an elephant in the room with you and not talking about it.

    On the other hand, sure liked that song at the end, tried to catch the name and artist in the credits but missed it. Have to replay it and catch it in those fast moving credits.

    The LewDew, Professional Golf Bum

    I think Arya's spear will be used for that, similar to how the knight king killed the dragon.


    So why didn't any of the escaped knights watch or wildlings mention the ice dragon?
    Arya just takes whatever the hell she wants now. Feels weird when thinking about her as she was first in the show.

    Wet stuff on the red stuff.

    Join us in the Key Players Club

    I had to google but she's old enough to be a college graduate.

    Recruit Prosim

    Yea she is 22 in real world, but watching from the beginning it's still weird.

    Wet stuff on the red stuff.

    Join us in the Key Players Club

    HBO sent out this tweet before the show aired in the UK definitively to act as a reminder for her age.

    the crypts are safe

    the crypts are safe

    the crypts are safest place to be

    So obviously everyone in the crypts is fucked.

    stick it in, stick it in, stick it in!

    I have a feeling that the NIght King is going to resurrect all of the dead Starks in the crypts, which would really be something...

    ...which also jives which the idea that maybe the Night King is a Stark himself, as we know he was one of the First Men prior to being turned, and that the Starks are related to the First Men.

    Crypts will extremely relevant, beyond just a place to hang out/stay safe. They have their own scene in the intro. I think these three things are related:

    • The saying "There must always be a start in Winterfell"
    • The fact that Uncle Benjin was never turned into full White Walker
    • Something special about the cripts

    Maybe the Night King will try to rise the dead starks, but they'll rebel against him, or something like that. We shall see.

    Twitter me

    Considering the dead are there. Why would they go to where the dead are with a dude that can reanimate the dead coming to town?


    seems that way right?

    in the books, and I think somewhere in the TV series, Winterfell is mentioned as having old magic in its walls, imbued when Bran the Builder constructed the castle. Question is whether that residual magic is going to be any use against the Night King's powers.

    If you didn't tear up just a bit when Brienne got knighted, you have no soul.

    A few thoughts.

    I used to like Danny but no so much anymore. She's on a power trip and is going down the same path as her father. Geez, get over yourself lady, you have White Walkers breathing down your neck.

    Arya has become a straight up badass. If you asked me back in season 6 it wouldn't have bothered me if she got offed in Braavos but now I want to see her inflict some pain and live happily ever after with Gendry.

    Jaime Lannister is the ultimate feel good story. Nothing would please me more to see him off Cersei after he and Brianne of Tarth make it Facebook official.

    I want to hang with the Hound and do rails.

    Tyrod did it Mikey, Tyrod did it!!

    The Hound is such a good anti-hero

    Recruit Prosim

    Jaime Lannister is the ultimate feel good story

    Yeah...about that. Any of those feel good stories we got tonight probably don't have a nice pleasant follow up next week.

    Y'all are too quick to fall for this red herring drama with Dany. They just needed something to add a little tension to these first two episodes. I figured this would be even less of an issue from viewers after tonight's episode where she took the Aegon news pretty damn well for someone who just found out her entire life's mission is no longer clear because her nephew is the actual heir to the Iron Throne because of a patriarchal succession system.

    Also Aerys was probably a bad guy anyway, but it's much less likely that he just has "something naturally inherent inside him that made him crazy as hell" that Dany would also have as many have speculated (but ignore that Rhaegar was apparently a great guy, and that Dany for 6+ seasons has been incredible), and much more likely that Bloodraven/Bran (nonlinear time and all) made the Mad King go full on crazy with an instruction gone wrong similar to Hodor.

    Yeah, you'd think she'd consider the following when deciding whether to be concerned about a challenge to the throne from Jon.
    a) Jon constantly turns down leadership positions, doesn't seek them out
    b) Jon doesn't care about titles just about protecting the people
    c) Jon already pledged loyalty to Dany
    d) Jon loves Dany

    He would have to have a really big personality shift to try and claim the Iron Throne over Dany, despite having a legit claim. And it's not like it would be breaking tradition for him to renounce his claim. There's plenty of precedent in GOT of heirs renouncing their claim to the throne.

    and regarding Aerys.. yes it's a strong theory that the Mad King's obsession with wildfire was spurred by a psychi message from Bloodraven (or even Bran) that the 7 kingdoms would need to defeat the white walkers with fire.

    That damn ending.

    Next week's episode is going to be a crazy one.

    "I regret nothing. The end." - Ron Swanson

    So hear me out, but I'm thinking that maybe hanging out in the crypts, where a bunch of Starks are buried is a bad idea...Ya know, seeing as how the White Walkers have a special talent of raising people from the dead as mindless soldiers...

    There have been a lot of fan theories about exactly this. However, it's pretty clear from the lore that the Night King can't resurrect the Kings of Winter. The Others are said to hate iron, and Ned Stark talks of the crypts by saying that the iron swords on the laps of all in the crypts are to keep restless spirits in their place.

    The Starks of old knew what the White Walkers could do, and safeguarded themselves against it. What once was defensive strategy is now just tradition.

    There are alternate theories that the Kings of Winter will rise to defend Winterfell during the battle, but I think that's a little too on-the-nose in terms of copying the undead army in Lord of the Rings.

    I had forgotten this lore from the books. It feels like so long ago since I read them and my memories get twisted with watching the show. Leg.

    Can't help but think Brienne has reached the end of her story, especially after such an emotional high. She's got to be a goner next episode. Tormund also made me laugh obnoxiously multiple times.

    Another white bronco? The first one didn't go too far.

    Methinks that she has to watch Jaime die, and proceeds to be heartbroken.

    Twitter me

    its been 2 episodes of feel goods, I think a lot of folks are about to reach the end of their story. I think Brienne, Arya, Jorah and the Hound are all goners next episode. My guess.

    "I'm too drunk to taste this chicken" - Colonel Sanders via Ricky Bobby

    Bran is a goner. Never should have told Tyrion his life story

    Oh, and a little much on the Sam and Edd die when they zoom in on Jon after Edd says "last one alive burns the rest". Plus, only Sam and Bran know that John is a Targ, so it only makes sense to kill those two off, because of course GRRM would do that.

    Would not be surprised to see Jamie killed while defending Bran.

    "I regret nothing. The end." - Ron Swanson

    Brenne is sort of the opposite of Cersey IMO. Cersey is evil and she always screws something up. Every time she executes a plan something negative happens to her. Brienne OTOH is a good person but she also always screws something up or fails in some way. I think the only thing she did right was rescue Sansa and Theon after they escaped on their own. She wasn't there to see the light in the tower though. So we now know she is supposed to protect the left flank.


    I feel like the first two episodes could have been condensed into one boring episode instead of two. The highlight of both episodes was Tormund talking about giant breast feeding and face chugging milk liquor. I'm so desperate for literally anything to happen that is not cheesy reunions and waterfall makeouts. The Night King is on their doorstep and I feel like i'm watching Twilight not Game of Thrones.

    Bring on the battle.

    This whole show has been one long soap opera with a few moments of high budget CGI battles mixed in. Literally 75% of the entire show is people just long drawn out dialogue making the plot advance at a snails pace. But because of things like the Red Wedding, Battle of the Bastards, Hardhome, etc, its all forgiven. Of course they were going to milk that soap opera effect for all it was worth before the final battles begin.

    "I regret nothing. The end." - Ron Swanson

    The reason GoT is so good is because of the drama between battles, not in spite of it. Do just hate-watch anything that's not a battle?

    Oh no, I never said I hated it. But my wife and I rewatched from the start before the final season, and we both made a remark that the show is totally a late night soap opera. It has something for pretty much anyone who could be watching, which is why it is so popular. I actually appreciate how they were able to weave the soap genre together with the action/scifi genre so well.

    "I regret nothing. The end." - Ron Swanson

    No, the reason GoT WAS so good was the immersion not the drama. The world was brutal, unforgiving and deadly. Every week was an hour long struggle for either survival or conquest. Sure relationships formed and characters developed and there was drama, but it always felt secondary to the struggle.

    I think the turning point was the Red Wedding Episode. Ever since then the writers have been chasing that next big bang. The format has become tension build, more building, more building, more building, RELEASE. While the climax that we are given has typically been nice, I feel like the plot development and the episode to episode quality has tanked. Most of last season was boring, so far this season has been excruciatingly boring.

    you should try reading the books if you think the show moves slowly

    See i disagree. He created so many different plot lines for you to get caught up in that i never found myself thinking "alright get to the point already". Everything moved pretty fluidly and seemed to have a purpose, unlike the show, which i think concentrates a little too much on crowd pleasing moments that don't contribute to the story.

    15 Straight

    I have read the books. I agree with this.

    Except for the Kingsmoot.

    Well you're about to get the longest uninterrupted battle scene in history (as we've been told) next week. I would imagine shit will be popping off for at least the next two episodes and probably the next 4.

    As much as I agree that the story hasn't progressed much the last two episodes, when everyone starts dying I think we will look back on these two episodes full of reunions and special (potentially final) moments between friends and family and wish we could go back to that time haha.

    I doubt we could have condensed these two episodes. They might not have had to have been an hour a piece, but there was so much that needed to be conveyed. You have characters with lots of history meeting up, some for the first time in years. It also serves to make the death of characters in the battle much more heart wrenching. Gendry or Arya dying wouldn't be as impactful if they didn't reunite. Same with Jaime and Briene.

    You have characters with lots of history meeting up, some for the first time in years

    But not really, because we had the reunite episode when they brought the white-walker to Cersie. There has probably been more real time elapsed between that episode and this one than time in the story line. Arya, Sansa, and Bran are really the only ones that have been out of the loop.

    Come to Blacksburg and see what the Hokie Pokie is really all about

    I thought I read somewhere that this entire story arc was supposed to take part over the span of a few months, but they've had to make adjustments for the way the show is made and produced. Is that not correct?

    "I regret nothing. The end." - Ron Swanson

    That is what I thought as well, felt like a few months since the Cersei/WW episode so all of the characters except Ned's kids have all reunited recently, so all the grab ass that has been going on this season feels like rehash and I wish it would have been condensed into one 80 min episode to start the season.

    I am not saying they had to dive right into the battle, but have some scheming and some more time put toward any plots individual characters may be working behind the fight against the Night King. You know Sansa, Danny, Cersei, and Varys are all thinking about how to benefit themselves when the battle is over. If they would have hinted more into that I think it would have added a thick undercurrent to the story so far.

    Come to Blacksburg and see what the Hokie Pokie is really all about

    I appreciated last night because of the way they approached it as 'how would you act if you knew you were going to die tomorrow'. Yeah, it might have been long and drawn out, but most of the characters we saw last night likely die next week, and it was good to kind of finalize their arcs and bring some stories to a close before that happens.

    My question now is... do they kill the Night King next week, or do they continue their match south? I could see the story going both ways, logically playing into the arc that has been set up from the beginning.

    "I regret nothing. The end." - Ron Swanson

    My guess is that they more or less lose the battle of Winterfell in ep3, then in ep4 they pull off a last ditch, suicide-type mission to kill the Night King with a smaller group. Then the last two episodes account for the the remaining loose ties with Cersei, Golden Company, future of Westeros.

    This is assuming we don't get the Night King wins, humanity was the problem all along ending.

    I think there still needs to be a Dany/Jon vs Cerci battle for Kings Landing. This whole series has been building towards 2 events - The war with the Night King, and Cerci's Last Stand. At one point, I thought they could coincide, but now it looks like it will be one and then the other.

    "I regret nothing. The end." - Ron Swanson

    My roommate postulates:
    We don't see the Night King or the dead dragon at the end of ep2. Just his henchman and a large army of undead. Therefore he believes the Night King is actually headed to Kings Landing to scorch the Golden Company as well as the Kings guard raising a larger army with which to March North on Winterfell

    I don't follow as detailed as he does or many on here so I'm wondering the thoughts here and how plausible this may be.

    I would assume if this come to fruition, somehow Cersei and the mountain escape and flee North for safety where a whooooole lot of weird mojo and plotlines would intersect in a manner not many seem to be suspecting?

    EDIT: Re-posted further down outside the sub thread

    You can drastically increase your knowledge of the show/books in a few youtube videos if you can commit to watching "Alt Shift X" Youtube channel breakdowns after each episode. As someone who has been watching live for like 7 years, it's really helpful because he brings up all the callbacks and things that are very easy to forget over years and years.

    He has lots of explanations of lore and theories as well. In my opinion, he is the premier source of GOT information and breakdowns.

    Here is the channel for anyone interested.

    I wish I had time to really dig into that. I usually just let my roomate exclaim something of importance and have him briefly explain it to me during lulls in the action

    The second episode I honestly feel was the best written dialogue since the show continued from where the books stopped.

    Ghost just low-key showing up in the background...

    After all is said and done, Ghost will be the last one standing and is going to have the burn the rest of the bodies. He will end up on the Iron Throne, and thus, The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe universe will have begun

    "I regret nothing. The end." - Ron Swanson

    That was a hand-job of an episode. Some feel good moment, but not what you want from GoT. I agree that they should have combined first two into a longer episode to satisfy the long wait between seasons and left more episodes for wrapping up the show. You could sum up everything so far as Ep 1: Everyone arrives at Winterfell, Jon finds out, Cersie hires an army for backstabbing. Ep 2. They plan for battle, Arya gets laid, Jon tells Danny. Done. Not much else moved. They even started to move some plot lines and then interrupted them (Danny and Sansa, Danny and Jon)!

    Come to Blacksburg and see what the Hokie Pokie is really all about

    When do Jon and Sansa get married, unifying the south an the north?


    That was a hand-job of an episode

    Would you call it "The Stranger", then?

    If you're not sure if my comment warrants a "/s", it probably does.

    I don't think we see the dead Starks in the crypts rise and fight (at least not for the Night King anyway), for several reasons.

    1) Have we ever actually seen the Night King raise something dead that wasn't killed directly by a White Walker/a wight under his thrall? I'm not saying he can't, but we don't know if he can either. To this point everything we've seen come back to life was killed directly by something under his control.

    2) Considering all of the character building that has been done about the Stark family, their preparedness, and knowing where the true threat lie for thousands of years, it would be the most un-Stark thing ever for them to leave a handy undead army available directly below Winterfell, not to mention one that would be emotionally devastating to see for any Stark defending the castle in particular.

    If they knew that the NK could raise anything dead, one would assume they would have followed a tradition of burning the bodies of the dead. Perhaps the Starks know something else, that these spirits can rise to defend Winterfell. I would just find it hard to believe they would ignore the possibility that the NK would ever reach Winterfell and use the Kings of Winter against them. That's like the entire purpose of the House's existence.

    See VTGM's post above. It's believed that the Starks of old knew, and that knowledge has just become tradition.

    If you're not sure if my comment warrants a "/s", it probably does.

    Most people who I've seen discuss theories of the Starks rising from the dead do not have them fighting alongside the Night King. They point to Benjen's weird half-transformation into a wight/white walker but retaining his humanity and decision making, and the fact that Starks likely share White Walker ancestry in their bloodline. This would (theoretically) allow them to resist the Night King's control, perhaps, with Benjen as the example to defend this possible truth.

    I don't have an opinion on whether that happens or not, but most of the theories I've seen surrounding that have them fighting alongside the living.

    Moved this from a sub-thread as I am really interested in others thoughts.

    My roommate postulates:
    We don't see the Night King or the dead dragon at the end of ep2. Just his henchman and a large army of undead. Therefore he believes the Night King is actually headed to Kings Landing to scorch the Golden Company as well as the Kings guard raising a larger army with which to March North on Winterfell

    I don't follow as detailed as he does or many on here so I'm wondering the thoughts here and how plausible this may be.

    I would assume if this come to fruition, somehow Cersei and the mountain escape and flee North for safety where a whooooole lot of weird mojo and plotlines would intersect in a manner not many seem to be suspecting?

    Yeah, probably does. Then takes credit. And I ignorantly give it to him...

    After reading...sounds verbatim. My roomate is plagiarizing

    I think this has to be what happens. I just don't think there's enough time in the series for there to be a battle at winterfell and then another battle at kings landing between Cersei and the survivors. I think this this way, we also get past the issue of "who sits on the iron throne and takes kings landing?" because there isn't going to be a King's Landing after the Night King gets there. Also a strong possibility he's not able to raise the people of Kings Landing afterwards because i could see Cersei burning it to the ground with wildfire when she realizes what her fate is.

    15 Straight

    I don't see it from a logical perspective. He'd have to go through basically every major city in Westeros to get to Kings Landing, that'd be a lot of skipping through places even with a dragon.

    (add if applicable) /s

    As for the episode itself, I found it to have several satisfying payoffs and provide some relatively clear hints (as much as GoT does, at least) as to who bites it during the Battle of Winterfell. Would love to hear everyone else's guesses for episode 3 but here are mine:

    1) Theon - I would bet my house on him dying protecting Bran. His entire redemption arc has been completed with not only rescuing his sister, but also the way in which he was welcomed back by Sansa. His story has come to an end and he will go out fighting, not as a Reek.

    2) Bran - I have the distinct feeling that he and the NIght King are meant to cancel out each other in some way. I will also say that if he dies, that likely means the NK is gone too.

    3) Brienne/Jaime - One of these two is going to go, but not both I think. Again, Brienne's arc has come full circle at this point. Becoming the first female knight ever in Westeros and realizing she had the admiration (and love/respect) of Jaime is the high point. One of these two will watch the other die, hence the plot point to have him fighting alongside her, and I lean towards it being her.

    4) Beric - I think this is another slam dunk. He is ready to die one would imagine, and his comment about this being the Lord of Lights moment. I see him sacrificing himself to do something key because of his faith in that.

    5) Tormund - I will be sad to see him go, but I can imagine it surrounded by a pile of wights and a WW or two.

    6) Dolorous Edd - not really needed as a character anymore, but would still pack emotional punch. Too much foreshadowing in that scene with Jon and Sam.

    7) Gendry

    8) Podrick

    9) Edit - forgot to add Grey Worm. His character is what it is, and after that last kiss and fleeting moments of happiness talking about the future with Missendei, I don't see him surviving the battle.

    I would add Jorah and Davos. I think there is room for them in a world after the Night King, but it just feels that given their age and character arcs that they are due for their heroic exits this season.

    Jorah made peace with his house, likely ending his character arc.

    Hokies United l Ut Prosim

    Agreed on Jorah. Although it won't happen until he takes out a few Walkers. Having him get Heartsbane is pointless unless he does something of importance with it.

    I also have Greyworm near the top of my "most likely to die" list.

    Yeah I meant to add him there. I think it was set up for him to go whupping some ass with his Unsullied

    Zero percent chance Jon, Dany, Arya, and Sansa all survive this battle

    15 Straight

    I don't think all 4 of them survive the season, but I could see them surviving the battle.

    I agree with this. If they're going to split it into either multiple battles (episodes) or 2 separate wars (white walkers, iron throne) I think all 4 of those go towards the very end of the season.

    (add if applicable) /s

    True I could also see them doing something where they make it seem like Arya has died, but she's actually just stolen someone else's face and is still alive. I just don't see them having the biggest battle in the whole series without one of our really main characters dying.

    15 Straight

    The most likely to me would be Sansa if it happens during the battle. I have trouble seeing either Jon or Dany dying at least until the whole "Which Targaryen wants the throne?" tension is resolved or at least addressed in full. But I do think one of both of them die by the end of the season.

    Yea see i think thats going to be their quick way to dissolve that tension is by having one of them die.

    15 Straight

    Sansa is probably number one on my list of characters most likely to survive to the end of the series.

    I think the Mormont lady is more likely to die in the battle than Jorah. This would allow Dany/Jon/Sansa/whoever to pardon Jorah and give him back his lordship. He also was given a named sword which is probably a big deal. This is also all pending on if the living wins.

    2) Bran himself said the NK's goal is to kill him to remove all memory of the world. If Bran dies, the NK wins unless the memories are passed to someone else?

    Bran had a little storytime session with Tyrion this episode, sooooo....

    "I regret nothing. The end." - Ron Swanson

    If Tyrion ended up as the Three-Eyed Raven, that would be incredible. Considering his love of history...

    We already know that Bran/TER doesn't reveal everything though. The shout out "The things we do for love" line was fantastic. I don't think he was mad at Jaime because he knew he needed for those events to occur as they did to put him where he is now. He seems to know everything that has happened and why, perhaps not exactly what WILL happen.

    The Night King wants to get him to erase man's memory/history. But I get the sense that's not the whole story. It feels like the NK fears Bran somewhat, or at the very least knows he is a threat to him beyond just the memories. Considering Bran know how he was created/how the Starks dealt with him/their plans moving forward, I think its quite possible he is aware of exactly what he needs to do, and it was the easiest explanation to the war counsel to suggest leaving himself as bait to accomplish that.

    Maybe he needs bran to prevent himself from becoming the night king?

    Recruit Prosim

    Good stuff AZ, but you really think Jaime could die? He has a lot of unresolved stuff with Cersei still.

    I agree but it seems highly likely that Brienne is donezo.

    Joffrey, Cersei, Ilyn Payne, the Hound, Jeff Jagodzinski, Paul Johnson, Pat Narduzzi.

    I want Jamie to kill Cersei.

    Hokies United l Ut Prosim

    They wasted a lot of the limited dragon glass on the parapets of Winterfell.

    Wet stuff on the red stuff.

    Join us in the Key Players Club

    I got the impression they could make as much as they needed considering they had two grown dragons to help provide it.

    Everybody was picking up a dragonglass weapon or wielding a bow and some dragonglass arrows, even the guys that didn't know how to fight

    No this is what they mined below Dragonstone island. The dragons don't actually make it.

    Wet stuff on the red stuff.

    Join us in the Key Players Club

    If they survive, then it should be easy enough to remove it from the walls and the pikes to reattach to other weapons.

    As for it being mined below Dragonstone, is there anything definitive that says the dragons don't have a hand in making it? Afterall, there were live ones there for quite a long time after the Conquest.

    It was there long before the dragons, the night king was created with a piece.

    Wet stuff on the red stuff.

    Join us in the Key Players Club

    It's probably there to thin out the wights that try to climb the walls at some point. So probably not really a waste if 1/4 to 1/2 die getting over.

    They were using it for the Cheval de frise in the trenches outside which made a lot of sense. But the random spots on the castle seemed odd. Unless they just ran out of time to make weapons?

    Wet stuff on the red stuff.

    Join us in the Key Players Club

    I assume there are lots of leftover shards after making weapons, so that's probably what they stuck to the battlements.

    stick it in, stick it in, stick it in!

    Probably TV constraints. I would assume you'd have more closer together if you were using it as a defensive mechanism, but they had the longest battle sequence ever to film.

    Now finish up them taters; I'm gonna go fondle my sweaters.

    I hope they do one of these after next episode

    It would look more like

    Tyrod did it Mikey, Tyrod did it!!