Dalton Keene Forgoes His Senior Year for the Draft

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This is a bummer, man

Weird time to put it out. Best of luck Rambo! How is the H Back depth looking?

If you want level-headed opinions, don't go on a message board or sports forums

hmmmm I mean James Mitchell is more than capable of taking the #1 spot at H-Back, but keene was a super reliable producer on offense, so it's a bummer that he's gone next season

I was just gonna post about this...and Gaines joined the transfer portal along with mcclease hitting the draft...man I wasn't expecting Keene to leave. He's the heart and soul of that offense and maybe the team...I wish him the best of course and he is a true hokie. He will be missed greatly!

HokieHighVPI03

Damn. He was a tool for this offense. Seems like Mitchell got more attention as the year in the passing game but Keene was crucial for his run blocks and YAC blocking.

(add if applicable) /s

Thank you for the memories Rambo, and fuck UVA!

I am no expert on the NFL, I hope he gets selected and plays. I mean, there were folks who said Lamar wasn't a QB. πŸ€·πŸΎβ€β™‚οΈ

TKPhi Damn Proud
BSME 2009

Best of luck to him. I'll definitely be rooting for him. Always great to have more Hokies in the NFL.

But putting my fandom aside, I think he might be a tough sell as a draft prospect. He's not quite a TE but not quite a back either, though he's closer to TE than back. I always thought we should have featured him more than we did because you do see glimpses of that talent. Would like to have seen another year out of him but maybe that's what went into his decision. He didn't think he was gonna be featured enough to make a difference in his stock and already had enough good tape out there.

He kinda reminds me of Chris Cooley, former Washington Redskin, who also appeared to be somewhere between tight end and fullback. I think Dalton could find a niche somewhere.

I still say that Kinzer epitomized what HBack was for the Hokies..he was "sneaky athletic"..hope I'm doing that right..lol

Didn't he jump over someone during a blowout Maryland game?

Actually It was against BC.

Sucks that his playing days were cut short due to injury. I had a class with him during a summer session he was a really down to earth friendly guy.

If he gets drafted or sticks on roster that's great for both VT and him. I'm sure all Hokie nation is wishing him the best of luck in that endeavor.

This was unexpected, and I have to say I'm both bummed and surprised. If there is any silver lining to be had, James Mitchell is a serious weapon, and down the stretch he seemed to be stealing touches from Keene. This will also give Nick Gallo a chance to really showcase what he's all about. After that, this opens an opportunity for someone else to step up and earn touches. Perhaps that's someone else whose been on the roster for awhile, or even Wilfried Pene, who I assumed would need a year to be ready. Maybe we will use King/Blackshear (if available) in some more of those H-back rollout and misdirection plays. Ohio State had some big time plays utilizing Curtis Samuel and Jalin Marshall in that role.

Well, that's a swift kick in the nuts.... I really liked him. I mean I still do, but you get the picture.

Warning- Filter lost.

"Look at this... This is just spectacular.... These people are losing their minds"

STICK IT IN HAS RETURNED!!!

That came out of nowhere... I don't know what to say, but this kind of expresses how I feel...

Best of luck and thanks for everything. We all know Mitchell is a savage, but has anyone heard any knocks on Gallo? He seems to be ahead of the learning curve and can hopefully step in to a much bigger role next season.

This is too bad, I like Dalton a lot. Would have loved to have had him for one more year.

Best of luck to Dalton. Hope that he can find a roll on a team. I always thought we could have featured him more, he was a productive pass catcher. His knowledge of the offense and leadership will be greatly missed!

1-0 every week

Yeah, tough one to lose, but hope the best for him. Gave his all, great example and will miss him as a leader next year. Get drafted and show 'em what you're made of. Good luck!

Love Dalton's effort and attitude, but....

Do other teams also have players leave school with eligibility left even when their draft stock is pretty low?

I wish him all the best but I think this is a curious decision... I believe Keene has strong ties to Coach Wiles?

I wish him the best.

But IF this even factored into his decision (and that's a big IF), it was rationalizing. Overall it's not as puzzling a decision as Evans', but it wasn't a wise one IMO.

Unexpected players with eligibility leave school early all the time, it's not a situation unique to Virginia Tech.

Not trying to be a smart ass here, but I can't immediately recall a single Virginia Tech player between Shyrone Stith in 2000 and Jerod Evans/Bucky Hodges in 2017 who had me scratching my head at their decision to leave early.

Now we seem to have 1-2 players almost every year that declare before they should. There's a reason the NFL College Advisory Committee grades prospective early entrants as: First Round, Second Round or Dude, Don't Leave. Keane is making a BAD decision.

Edit - I forgot Darren Evans in 2011.

The doll's trying to kill me and the toaster's been laughing at me.

Based on what? Have you read his feedback? Do you know his injury situation? Maybe he figures the upside between this year and next is limited and the risk of getting hurt is real and he wants to take his chance now because he is healthy?

I'm not saying it's good or bad. I'm saying I don't know that and neither do you.

Fair enough, let's wait until the NFL College Advisory Committee gives it's grade on Keene.

But I can tell you this. If you think TKP basically saying "Go get paid, bro!" to a player who should not be declaring early is helpful to that young man, or to the Virginia Tech program, you are sorely mistaken.

The doll's trying to kill me and the toaster's been laughing at me.

pretty sure no one comments on a fan board to help a player or the program.

πŸ¦ƒ πŸ¦ƒ πŸ¦ƒ

Before he announced his decision I don't recall a single person on TKP or elsewhere that suggested Keene, "Go get paid, bro!".

What I have read on TKP is a bunch of folks supporting his decision after it was made.

Exactly

I never said before he announced. Or implied that. Why would you even put those words in my mouth?

The doll's trying to kill me and the toaster's been laughing at me.

Your comment doesn't make sense otherwise.

"I am probably too rational to be here"

Come on man.

Player declares early, surprising everyone. TKP members then rationalize a questionable move by giving unconditional support to a decision 90% of NFL GMs and scouts would advise against making.

Where do you think I implied that TKP was telling Dalton Keene to declare early BEFORE he did so?

The doll's trying to kill me and the toaster's been laughing at me.

Nobody is rationalizing his decision. He has apparently made his decision. He has presumably talked to his coaches, parents, and other people he trusts before he made the decision. None of us know any/all of the different factors that went into the decision. We, as fans who enjoyed seeing him play, are showing support of him (not his decision). All of us are hoping for a good outcome. Are we convinced it will be a good outcome? I would guess not.

You never know, maybe somebody in his family got cancer or some major illness and they can't afford treatment and by him going pro he could pay for it. Maybe he is really worried about another injury and wants to cash in while he still can. He may have very good reasons rather than those who just want to cash in as soon as absolutely possible, even if they wouldn't get as much if they'd stayed.

I'm not about to question why he made his decision. I'm going to hope for the best and be supportive of him. I hope he does get drafted, both to see someone in the fam succeed (primary reason), as well as the selfish part of me that gets happy that we got somebody else drafted and what it means to recruits (distant second reason).

And you never know, maybe he gets much worse news about his draft prospects than he thought and we get Rambo back another year. I wouldn't complain about that either.

How could advice be helpful or harmful to a young man AFTER his decision is made (assuming anything TKP says matters anyway)?

"I am probably too rational to be here"

Or after - take your pick. My words have nothing to do with "getting paid". It is purely a risk-reward individual decision with those individual variables that mean different things to different individuals - injury situation, love of the game, other pursuits/passions, money is a part of it too obviously. Your absolutism as you what Dalton should do and others opinions is just too singular for me. It's more complicated than you want to give it credit for today.

Your quick to judge assessment and saying people are advocating for getting paid in a vacuum is just silly whether before or after. Not what is happening.

Keane is making a BAD decision.

How do YOU know he's making a bad decision? Do you know his personal, family, and financial situation that he would need to evaluate in order to make this decision? C'mon man. Just cause it's not the decision you would make if you were in the situation doesn't automatically make it bad.

I found TKP after two rails from TOTS then walking back to my apartment and re-watching the 2012 Sugar Bowl. I woke up the next day with this username.

Everyone thought Terrell was making a bad decision too, but then he got 1st round money.

I do not think Keene will get 1st round money.

I'll admit that's 100% true.

I thought Terrell Edmunds was crazy to leave early, and I was totally wrong on that one. Totally, stunningly wrong.

But you said it yourself. Keene isn't going to get 1st round money. He probably won't be drafted. He may not play a down in the NFL. He'll have a better chance if he plays another year in college, though. That's all I'm saying.

The doll's trying to kill me and the toaster's been laughing at me.

Maybe maybe not. He may have been about to be 2nd string. His stats may have peaked. Leave on a high note. If you've played 3 straight years of P5 starter level ball what do you have left to prove?

Another 10 or 15 lbs on his frame would be a good start - among many things.

Look at the TEs in the playoffs this weekend and then look at Keene. He may be "Rambo" but he stills looks relatively scrawny compared to most NFL TEs and HBacks. He's a solid college TE, but it's not like he brings ridiculous speed or hands to the table either.

If he's about to be 2nd string on an above-average college team, I have news for you: He's not an NFL player.

The doll's trying to kill me and the toaster's been laughing at me.

this is a terrible take because it's based entirely on the assumption that every team's personnel fit is identical and evaluated in a vacuum

If Keene shows out at the combine in workouts, his size is identical to and his college numbers compare favorably to Dawson Knox, TE out of Ole Miss who was a r-JR who decided to forego his senior season after tallying 39 catches for 605 yards for zero touchdowns for his career and was promptly drafted in the third round.

"Why gobble gobble chumps asks such good questions, I will never know." - TheFifthFuller

I still think Jerod made a poor choice by leaving early, but I don't think Dalton leaving early is nearly as bad. I don't know if Dalton's profile raises much even if he has a better season than this year. He's played for three years, made big plays two years in a row, scored TDs, proved he can block, he's proven he can be consistent. Mitchell and Gallo will cut into his production next year probably, so it's probably better to go for the NFL now before risking injuries. Hope it works out for him.

I think he can do well in the NFL, but players like him arent first round picks. But lots of teams need a guy that can do a little bit of everything.

And that is probably the rationale here, say he came back and had a season where he improves is receptions and yards by 50% and improved is blocking score by 10 points, he would probably still only be a 3rd round pick solely due to how the NFL draft values positions. I could see him going in the 4-5 round, so from a contract standpoint he isn't risking much in terms of his long term career by leaving early. He arguably faces more risk from injury, so he might as well eat that risk while being paid than eat it finishing up school. He can always go back for that last year on his NFL contract dime. At his position, the ceiling is not all that high.

Whatever. It was one bad year.

Seasonal Brew means High ABV for football season and standard the rest of the year.

The Wiles narrative is easy here. His primary recruiter and the total reason that Dalton came to VT. But step outside of that narrative for a second. Try to put yourself in his shoes, do we really think he would up and declare for the draft because he was upset that VT didn't retain Wiles? A decision that has implications on his first adult major paycheck and the rest of his life? Seems more likely that he honestly thinks that his draft status was as high as it was going to get and he didn't want to risk serious injury coming back for another year.

Exactly. No need to create a story line that doesn't exist.

"I am probably too rational to be here"

Meh...i'm more liable to believe the Wiles reasoning than him getting good feedback on the draft Disregard what I said earlier after reading his comment below..as it stands now...he may be one of these guys that shoots up the board when he goes to the combine and plays in the all star games...i just keep thinking back to I. Ford and Jerod Evans...

He has already stated Wiles has nothing to do with it.

"I am probably too rational to be here"

Yeah I read through the thread and corrected myself in my reply

Sooooo 19 of 22 starters returning is still pretty good!

"Take care of the little things and the big things will come."

Like 19.5 Mitchell?

Wet stuff on the red stuff.

Join us in the Key Players Club

Woke up to this news like:

Keene was underutilized in the Hokies' passing attack. Should've had 1-2 more targets a game. He's not a sexy draft name, but I think his strength, versatility and relentless effort will earn him a shot. I am left to wonder if there's any correlation with Wiles' departure, Keene and his family were very close with Wiles and his family.

I think maybe you can argue that he was 95% sure he wanted to go to the draft and the Wiles stuff took him the final 5%, but it seems unlikely to me that his feeling on the Wiles situation would sway his feelings about what is in his best interest financially. He likely felt that he had nothing to gain coming back one more year. I think he may be right that he is unlikely to put anything on tape this coming year that would have changed his draft status. Go take your shot in the NFL. Best of luck to him!

With that said, yeah this kind of sucks and I'm bummed.

He had TONS to gain by coming back for another season. In fact, he is the absolute poster child for players who have something to gain by having a breakout senior season. He's like the H-Back version of Jerod Evans.

He could have gone from a long-shot 7th-rounder to a guaranteed top 4 rounds if he came back and had a kick ass season. I really hope he reconsiders this decision.

The doll's trying to kill me and the toaster's been laughing at me.

I don't believe he or Jerod would have improved their draft stock significantly. They are who they are and people act like scouts can't see talent (or lack of) without senior film. These decisions come down to rolling the dice on an opportunity to hit on a contract that will set you up for life.

"I am probably too rational to be here"

You don't think Jerod would have done better with another year? Not that it was senior film per se, but I thought the knock on him was only one year outside JUCO and they wanted more evidence of performance. Was there something else I'm forgetting?

I guess my point is that their development doesn't hit a wall the second they enter NFL. If he was going to break through some ceiling that made him an NFL qb, he would still be on a roster right now anyway. Maybe a great senior year gets him drafted late, but would that have really changed his total outcome?

"I am probably too rational to be here"

Look at Joe Burrow, he wouldnt have been drafted last year and this year could be #1 pick. Evan's had a lot about the position he could have learned. Physically he was ready and another year would have been pointless, but mentally he had a lot about the position to learn. Another offseasons learning the offense and quickly making reads to get to the 3rd or 4th read would have made a huge difference.

Evans is no Burrow and I dont think he would have ever developed the skills he needed to be a great NFL player.

"I am probably too rational to be here"

I thought Evans could have developed into a Dak Prescott type of QB, similar size, similar styles, similar numbers. Prescott put up some really good numbers his junior year, but he needed that senior year of doing it again to really get noticed by the NFL. I imagine he learned a lot in that extra year. It got him drafted and gave him a good shot at making an NFL team. Jerod left too soon IMHO. NFL scouts were quoted as saying things like, "I don't understand why he's coming out early."

Isaiah Ford and Bucky Hodges left early, which would have left Evans with Cam Phillips as the only sure receiver on the roster. Maybe he thought not having reliable receivers would hurt or at least not help his draft stock.

Marshall University student.
Virginia Tech fanatic.

There was also the issue he didn't finish his classes and would not have been academically eligible. He made the decision to jump before the season was over.

Wet stuff on the red stuff.

Join us in the Key Players Club

Really? I was not aware of that. His decision definitely makes more sense now.

Plus, he would have been used as a battering ram even more in 2017.

Marshall University student.
Virginia Tech fanatic.

I'd heard this as well. Coming back was not an option academically.

Keene was underutilized in the Hokies' passing attack.

β€œWho is this Fuentes person that you speak about?” -McHokie540

I think Dalton did what most good players do - he evaluated his current chances against the future risk and rewards. Keep in mind he got hurt and sat out last spring and took a while to get 100% healthy. He is now healthy and better physically than he has ever been and has to weigh the risks of getting hurt again. The Wiles speculation sounds ridiculous to me - as a starter and captain next year you are going to go pro bc a coach who your Dad and you are close to is gone? To say that has influence is an insult to Dalton and his family as that says they are petty and emotional vs looking at what Dalton's best interests are for now and his future.

I don't want to lose Dalton, but his potential success also has a positive influence on the of program - aka come here and we will get you in the league. If healthy and the right fit I could definitely see him carving out a role with a good team (great Patriot fit)

From a skill-set standpoint Nick Gallo is Dalton 3 years ago and slightly more athletic. He just had some really good players in front of him as Dalton didn't. It doesn't mean he will be as good as potential vs doing it are different. If there is a position group where we have the chance to step up TE is one of them as we have experience and talent.

I love Dalton, but James Mitchell is better, HokieNation is gonna love James if they don't already

Go for it

Keene is a much better blocker and that really matters in this offense. Hopefully Mitchell works on that between now and August, because he's going to be depended on to do a lot more.

^^This^^

And being such a good blocker is what makes him so dangerous and versatile. No matter where he lined up, his position alone wasn't going to give away a play.

Is it basketball season yet?

I agree but in the same sense I think Mitchell brings a lot more to the pass game or even run game that Keene didn't, Mitchell is a special player and a hell of a kid, it wouldn't surprise me to see him be one of our offenses most solid players next year

Go for it

I don't want to diminish what Mitchell brings to the table, because I think he has the potential to become a special player, but I don't think it's fair to state one is flat out better than the other. Keene was the Swiss Army Knife of the offense and really did great work blocking in the trenches. Often Tech tasked him to handle a bigger defensive end and he got the job done. That's not Mitchell's suit and even though he will have to improve his blocking (on the edge if not in the box), I am sure Nick Gallo will help mitigate the loss some.

This is exactly why I feel like Keene might get drafted higher than people expect. I'd have to think that a skill set like that would be a good fit somewhere in the NFL. And I know I hear this about basketball where there are fewer positions, but are there a lot of TEs that might be in the draft next year - that has to be a consideration as well.

And as someone else said, if he got injured already, evaluating the possibility of another injury vs. being able to cash in at all is another strong decision point.

I think Mitchell is looking at what is valued more highly in the NFL - blocking or pass catching? Obviously, pass catching. Running routes. Making plays. Lineman block. Great pass catching and route running will outweigh blocking

Although those last few French film reviews really highlighted how poorly Dalton was blocking on a lot of key moments. If Mitchell is worse we might be in trouble if we don't find a suitable substitute.

DK has been such a great Hokie, I wish he were coming back next year to experience the team success we could have next year. He deserves to be a part of a signature win against PSU and square off against Clemson. On the other hand he plays such a physical brand of football, I'm glad he is going ahead and trying his hand at the NFL.

Blindside here!

"Hey Bud, you wont have to hold the opponent to 17 points anymore."

Dang, man. Outta nowhere. That one hurts.

Anywho, I wish him nothing but the best moving forward. And I'll always fondly remember the bicep catch and everything else he's done for VT

Best of luck at the next level Rambo. Totally understand the decision. With James Mitchell, 24 RB's and 17 WR's, touches will be spread thin next year.

So 20/22 starters returning now right? At least we kept farley

Hokie Club member since 2017

*19/22, Floyd sr, DK declared for NFL, McClease declared for NFL

1-0 every week

I guess it was a few weeks ago, more or less, that 24/7 reported that as it currently stood, that we were 2 or 3 scholarships over and that the numbers all work out.

Guessing Fuente has known about this for at least a month.

I do think Wiles's departure has at least something to do with it and at the very least it probably helped solidify his decision to leave early.

Best of luck to him. He has been fun to watch.

Next man up!

The numbers always work out.

And for what it's worth, I don't think anyone saw this coming.

Yeah, from what Keene's dad was saying on twitter, they were not happy about Wiles.

This one stings, but best of luck to him at the next level!

Now finish up them taters; I'm gonna go fondle my sweaters.

I enjoyed the fire he brought to the offense - often when we really needed something different.

The guy was a playmaker and an asset, but was underutilized.

For everyone speculating Wiles leaving played into this decision, here is straight from Dalton:

While I understand why the coaches don't publicly comment on matters with the players, it's very refreshing to have a response that shuts down rampant speculation.

Joffrey, Cersei, Ilyn Payne, the Hound, Jeff Jagodzinski, Paul Johnson, Pat Narduzzi.

Coming from a really well respected player it will help give Hokies fans some closure on the matter.

It's Time to go to Work

Whether it did or didn't have anything to do with his decision (I'll take him at his word and believe it didn't), if the narrative was starting to become "he's leaving his team because a position coach that he was close with on the other side of the ball got let go", I think he has to make a statement like this one if he's trying to have a future in a league where coaches come and go pretty frequently.

Now finish up them taters; I'm gonna go fondle my sweaters.

I mean sure that's what it says on the surface, but I think its pretty clear here reading between the lines that Keene is telling us Fuentes has lost the locker room. /s

I hate this crap so much, is MottzThoughts a troll for UVA? Its so counter-productive and distracting to even throw this stuff out there.

Keene will always be my guy for what he did to Trevon Hill this year.

Amen - he put Trevon and playing with heart on notice. I'm glad he called it out too - the edge sometimes needs to be said.

What was that?

Refer to giftory:

First Keene put Hill on ice skates (this honestly might be one of my favorites of all time)

and later scored a TD and pulled out Hill's own celebration

Oh THIS year. I thought it was back when Hill was on the team, I was like what

That top play is what DK should send to all NFL teams. That's some serious ass blocking!

Well, that and what, the 67 yard reception against Duke? His Miami highlights?

The dude is a competitor! I really hope someone drafts him!

I know this was Trevon's celebration, but I'm pretty sure Dalton did this after every touchdown since the Miami game (not sure about before that). Doesn't quite feel like trolling if you mock someone by doing their thing and then 'steal it' and use it as your own when playing other teams.

Quincy Patterson for H-Back

You will see this game, this upset and this sign next on ESPN Sportscenter. Virginia Tech 31 Miami 7

I mean, if someone else shows as a semi-viable backup QB in spring, why the hell not?

Warning- Filter lost.

"Look at this... This is just spectacular.... These people are losing their minds"

STICK IT IN HAS RETURNED!!!

Pretty weak TE class in this year's draft, that could've contributed to this. I'd imagine he's a day three prospect, but he should stick on a roster. I think Mitchell should stay in his receiving-heavy role and Gallo can basically take Keene's snaps.

*read headline*

*immediate reaction*

β€œWho is this Fuentes person that you speak about?” -McHokie540

NFL!!!

Never Forget #1 Overall Seed UVA 54, #64 UMBC 74

He reminds me of the H back on the 49 ers this year. Worked out of the backfield leading a RB and would leak out if there was no pressure. Was constantly in on the play, other teams may be taking notice and Dalton for that role perfectly.

Whatever. It was one bad year.

Seasonal Brew means High ABV for football season and standard the rest of the year.

Just as Homebrew said above, the Hback position was utilized often in the NFL this year and DK fits that role very well. Hoping he can land on a team like the 49ers, Packers, etc.

Another white bronco? The first one didn't go too far.

Great kid. I wonder if some of our recent RBs we picked up played into this. Seems Blackshear is pretty versatile.

Rambo just drew first blood from our hearts this offseason.

We have what's his names younger brother as TE too. Who got a fair amount of PT with Keene and Mitchell so that should say something.

But we will miss Keene and what he brings to VT.

Edit: came to me, Gallo.

One hell of a football player and great hokie

"I am probably too rational to be here"

Surprising- really good player who will get an opportunity to work on the elements of his game which may not have been utilized in this offense well. He will need to improve as a route runner. He is a good blocker and very good after the catch. Getting open on drop back passing plays will be his test, and he wouldn't get enough work to improve in that area at VT (while getting beat up as a lead blocker.)

Mitchell- better receiver, won't be as good at the point of attack.

Gallo- better blocker, but more comfortable blocking as a true hand on the LOS Y.

Cornelsen will have to adjust his scheme to accommodate King and the transfer tailbacks. Now he will have to adapt how he gets extra hats at the point of attack.

Five star get after it 100 percent Juice Key-Playing. MAN

If there is one thing I trust Cornelsen to do, it's adjust his scheme around what he has. Adjusting his scheme around what the opponent has, not so much.

Marshall University student.
Virginia Tech fanatic.

To me, his deficiencies as a middle of the field TE were partly due to his ability (or lack thereof), the QBs and the system. What I'm sure about are the proportions. But my guess is Corny has a TE and QB who can work the middle, he'll work the middle a more with the TE.

Gotta make room for them 12 running backs
/s...kinda

He was passed on the depth chart by Gallo of course. Everyone that leaves is. It's not a player retention issue at a much higher rate than most P5 teams, nah.

This is reaching. This isn't a transfer. He and his family feel his draft stock is high enough that he shouldn't risk returning and something happening next year. Are they right? Who knows but this isn't anything close to what happened last year which you're harping back to.

I and everyone else in this thread got dumber for having to read this.

Rambo is a great player and great Hokie. He will be missed by the fans and in the locker room.

Your sarcasm is overwhelmed by your bitterness and cynicism. Developing players where this is an every year discussion is a part of getting VT back to the consistent upper echelon of college football. This is something you have consistently complained about - wouldn't Dalton having success in the pros support that?
This situation is about that decision tree that good individual players and nothing else despite the rhetoric that always comes out.

If you're saying we have a player retention issue, I'm not sure that's exactly it. Sure, some guys see themselves getting buried on the depth chart and leave, whether they're getting passed or were never that high up on it. But the one year where we had a bunch of guys leave? My guess is a lot of that had to with attitude problems. Remember the articles about how there were some guys who wanted other players to essentially throw the last game of the season so they wouldn't HAVE to go to a bowl game? Yeah, get rid of ALL of those guys, and I think Fuente did. So I'm fine with that turnover, not sure how many it was, but I doubt 2 guys try to make that case, because then they're just assholes to everybody else, so it may have been a decent number of guys (5 or more?).

Neither Keene nor Hazelton are projected anywhere in the top 5 rounds of mock drafts. Both are going to leave with eligibility remaining. Our attrition rate is abnormally high. It is what it is I suppose.

You seem to be insinuating that there is some other reason they want out. Why do YOU think they are leaving early if it is not for personal career choices. (I don't remember seeing Hazelton as confirmed)

My theory is that once you are a two or three year starter, your resume is basically complete. That doesn't mean you won't still improve, but these guys are going to improve for years on an NFL roster as well. The hardest decision for these guys (my assumption) is to forgo another year of what is likely the most meaningful football they will ever play. What I mean is that most players will go from being a cherished contributor to a guy that fills a roster spot (but gets paid to do it).

"I am probably too rational to be here"

Do you have numbers on our attrition? What are the rates of other P5 schools? What are the rates at schools for the years immediately following a new coach at a P5 school? Have the rates at P5 schools gone up significantly since the transfer portal, and if so, are you taking that into account in your comparison?

We've gotten a lot of transfers in as coaches look to fill specific needs with experienced players - the guys we brought in came from somewhere.

In addition, if guys on the lower end of the talent spectrum are leaving and we replace them with guys with more talent, I'm fine with that turnover. Plus, as I mentioned elsewhere, one of the papers was following the guys who had transferred away from Tech. NONE of them had significant playing time or recorded meaningful stats. Turnover by itself isn't bad - it's only bad if you're losing your best talent. Talented guys transferring is worse than talented guys going pro (at least then hopefully they're successful and we can say we got another guy in the league).

EDIT: some of the transfers from Tech DID have meaningful minutes (Josh Jackson), but his performance wasn't as good as Hooker's. Most of the other players if they did have minutes, didn't have stats.

So, by this logic, Tremaine Edmunds got passed by Dylan Rivers or Dax Hollifield, Terrell Edmunds got passed by Reggie Floyd, and Tim Settle got passed by Jarrod Hewitt?

Nope.. but the line on here was McClease was went he went to the portal, only to come back, be the starter and lead the team in rushing. He was passed though. Hooker was "never going to play for us anyway" when he went into the portal too. It's always the line. Tre Turner could transfer and that would be the line.

If RW had not had 380 turnovers in 4 games Hooker may well have not taken a snap this year

Now finish up them taters; I'm gonna go fondle my sweaters.

There ya go... lol Yes, Hendon Hooker was close to never playing a snap this year, yet he saved our season. Love it.

Exactly. If RW had performed the way the coaches hoped/wanted him to, HH would not have gotten the opportunity. RW underperformed, thus HH was given the green light, and he came in to save the season.

It's not a tough concept.

Now finish up them taters; I'm gonna go fondle my sweaters.

The tough concept is believing that when Hooker went to the portal, he was a "G5" guy, passed by better players, etc. Which is total bullshit in reality. We love him when he's here, but the same player in the portal was passed by Knox Kadum. Right.

I, personally, never thought he was a G5 guy, but, if RW had played to his expectations from the coaches, then yes HH may well have been "passed by better players".

IF RW had performed well, he would have been the starter all this year.
I think the hope for everyone is for QP to develop into the next great thing, so is it unreasonable to think that maybe he would outperform HH in the off season, to take over for his RS Soph year and beyond?

Saying Knox Kadum passed him on the depth chart is a massive stretch that I would love for you to point me to anyone ever saying. A QB doesn't need everyone on the roster to pass him on the depth chart to mean they won't get playtime, they only need 1

Now that the coaches have seen what HH can do in-game, I would have to assume it's his to lose, and someone in the QB room might transfer out (cause they got passed on the depth chart)

Now finish up them taters; I'm gonna go fondle my sweaters.

I don't think that is always the line. Maybe always yours, as it seems to be your go to whenever someone leaves, but not everyone else's.

So when guys were leaving the program left and right under Beamer, did you feel the same way, or is it just a Fuente thing?

When did guys leave the program left and right under Beamer at this rate? When did starters leave? when did RS freshman getting burn leave? When did this happen at any similar rate?

We also didn't get transfers at this rate under Beamer. I think it is much more of a generational change in all of college football than you give it credit for.

"I am probably too rational to be here"

They changed the rules in 2017 I believe it was on transfers as well as graduate transfers is a relatively new thing - Russell Wilson started it. To compare the eras is like comparing scoring with a shot clock and one without it. The rules enable players to be more empowered post enrollment. Eliminating this in the argument makes the comparison unfair and sounds biased.

Instead of crying about it work with it and embrace it. Turnover is higher at every school and is the new normal. We have also gotten some pretty good players - Damon, Brock (hopefully), Blackshear (hopefully), Helpert (same) etc.

You could make a legit argument that we are winning more than we are losing with the new rules. The coaches are learning how to leverage it as a tool to be aggressive - I like it.

Turnover is higher at every school... Do you have proof of that? and you can't blame the 2018 debacle on the perfect storm of key player attrition and say we have won more than lost.

is it possible that there was a culture problem that needed fixing (whether initiated by a player that coaches didn't want to be here any more, or initiated by a player who no longer wanted to be here) and also that there were new rules instituted which facilitated that fix?

it's laughable to assume that every player who leaves was passed on the depth chart and is looking for playing time elsewhere, but it's just as laughable to assume that it's never the case.

and it's just plain asinine and downright stupid to anticipate a statement that nobody is making and then start an argument about how wrong that statement is.

you're the one who initially cited player retention rate at Tech relative to other P5 programs -- do you have the numbers to back that up? or was that another one of your "it's not a global warming peer review" statements?

"Why gobble gobble chumps asks such good questions, I will never know." - TheFifthFuller

Do you have proof that it is not? See my other reply to you about numbers. Without numbers, you can't argue that ours is higher than at other schools. And giving specific names of transfers in and my point about the transfers out, it seems like we're making out better with the give and take of them.

The point was EVERY school has more turnover now. I'm calling BS

then i'm calling BS on "a player retention issue at a much higher rate than most P5 teams"

VT has 8 players in the portal. Of the 64 P5 teams, there are 28 who have 7-or-more players in the portal.

More than half of P5 teams (38/64) have 5 or more players in the portal. One of out every eight teams has more than 10 players in the portal. VT isn't some strange bizarre outlier for having 8. The national average is 5.95

"Why gobble gobble chumps asks such good questions, I will never know." - TheFifthFuller

Here's the 2020 portal numbers for the ACC as of today

Clemson has 1 guy in the portal
Syracuse has 1 in, gained 1
UVA has 2 in
GT has 4 in, gained 2
Pitt has 4 in, gained 3
Louisville has 6 in
BC has 7 guys in, and has gained 1 guy
NC State has 7 in, gained 1
Wake Forest has 7 in
VT has 8 in, gained 2
Miami has 8 in
Duke has 9 in, has gained 1
UNC has 9 in
FSU has 10 in, gained 3

What's considered high turnover? 8 of 14 ACC teams have 7 or more in the portal, with 6 guys in the portal being the average. Haven't looked at any other conferences yet.

edit: reading comprehension is evidently an issue for me, lol...I'm not going to check on if turnover is higher for ever school now versus before the portal, but given that the portal was designed to make it easier, I'm gonna agree that it happens more everywhere

Now finish up them taters; I'm gonna go fondle my sweaters.

For the B1G:

Illinois: 4 in, gained 1
Indiana: 1 in, gained 3
Iowa: 3 in, gained 1
Maryland: 13 in, gained 1
Michigan State: 8 in, gained 0
Michigan: 9 in, gained 1
Minnesota: 8 in, gained 0
Nebraska: 7 in, gained 2
Northwestern: 3 in, gained 0
Ohio St: 2 in, gained 1
Penn St: 2 in, gained 0
Purdue: 8 in, gained 1
Rutgers: 12 in, gained 3
Wisconsin: 2 in, gained 0

average 5.8 players in the portal. 7 of 14 of the B1G teams have 7+

For the PAC12:

Arizona St: 9 in, 0 gained
Arizona: 5 in, 1 gained
Cal: 4 in, 0 gained
Colorado: 4 in, 3 gained
Oregon: 5 in, 1 gained
Oregon St: 6 in, 3 gained
Stanford: 15 in, 0 gained
UCLA: 11 in, 0 gained
USC: 5 in, 0 gained
Utah: 2 in, 1 gained
UW: 3 in, 0 gained
Wash St: 7 in, 2 gained

average 6.3 players in the portal. 4 of 12 of the PAC12 teams have 7+

For the SEC:
Alabama: 4 in, 0 gained
Arkansas: 10 in, 1 gained
Auburn: 3 in, 0 gained
Florida: 6 in, 4 gained
UGA: 4 in, 3 gained
UK: 6 in, 1 gained
LSU: 4 in, 0 gained
Miss St: 5 in, 1 gained
Missouri: 3 in, 0 gained
Ole Miss: 8 in, 1 gained
USCe: 7 in, 1 gained
Tennessee: 10 in, 3 gained
aTm: 10 in, 0 gained
Vandy: 5 in, 0 gained

averages 6.1 players in the portal. 5 of 14 of the SEC teams have 7+

For the Big 12

Baylor: 2 in, 1 gained
Iowa St: 4 in, 0 gained
Kansas: 3 in, 0 gained
KSU: 6 in, 0 gained
Oklahoma: 8 in, 1 gained
Ok St: 8 in, 2 gained
TCU: 5 in, 1 gained
Texas: 7 in, 0 gained
TTU: 4 in, 0 gained
WVU: 8 in, 0 gained

averages 5.5 players in the portal. 4 of 10 of the Big 12 teams have 7+

"Why gobble gobble chumps asks such good questions, I will never know." - TheFifthFuller

Thanks for the research. So VT is just about average with power 5 portal activity. People can back off from the ledge.

we have 8 in, and the average is 5.95 per P5 school. VT is a little high, but certainly not an outlier. I picked 7+ because that's what 757hokie83 used for ACC.

"Why gobble gobble chumps asks such good questions, I will never know." - TheFifthFuller

Thank you for the research, good sir! I would hesitate to draw inferences from the numbers, but they are certainly interesting!

For an FYI, transfer portal comparison over the last two years:

2019 2019 2020 2020 OUT IN Diff
VT 16 3 8 2 24 5 19
UNC 12 4 9 0 21 4 17
PSU 19 1 2 0 21 1 20
Bama 8 2 4 0 12 2 10
Michigan 18 2 9 1 27 3 24
FSU 7 5 10 3 17 8 9
Clemson 6 0 1 0 7 0 7
Miami 6 8 8 1 14 9 5
anOSU 9 4 2 1 11 5 6

I guess we big dogging now.

Out of the 24 who left us via xfer portal, 4 have been starters, 1 was kicked off the team, 3 were grad xfer.

Here are some numbers from 247 on Beamer years:

Year Signed LOI 4 Year Avg Loss to meet 85 limit
1999 23
2000 22
2001 24
2002 18 87 2
2003 20 84 0
2004 17 79 0
2005 23 78 0
2006 19 79 0
2007 26 85 0
2008 30 98 13
2009 24 99 14
2010 20 100 15
2011 22 96 11
2012 30 96 11
2013 24 96 11
2014 28 104 19
2015 22 104 19

From 2008-2015, we were bleeding players every year. The difference is it wasn't as noticeable to most folks since there wasn't 24/7 coverage listing who left every year. Only when someone left early to go pro or get kicked off the team did anybody really talk about it. Guys were still leaving the team, grad xferring, or just being released from their schollies. This shouldn't be a big surprise to anyone who has followed the team since 1999 until now.

Wow! I guess exactly to your point, I had no clue turnover was so high then!

We signed a lot of players later in Beamer's tenure that we shouldn't have. And to make room for those, we got rid of other players that we shouldn't have signed. The unfortunate part is that we were so desperate for bodies that we were taking a lot of questionable recruits. Some times it would work out, but most times they were busts. That isn't to say that a lot of them were not good guys and that they didn't bust their tails. They just weren't the type of guys that we needed to maintain the level of wins the program was known for.

Or, hear me out, here, he got good enough feedback that he feels he can transition to playing a game professionally and get paid lots of money for it, instead of playing another year for free in a game in which every time you suit up, it could potentially be your last time

Now finish up them taters; I'm gonna go fondle my sweaters.

$136,000

Or

$495,000

A 20-23 yr old chooses between those numbers. I'd take em all day.

If I know I'm not sticking on a roster, make year 1 and 2 savings years. Make year 3 my shot, or bounce. Still got my knees, and cash saved for a future outside of playing football.

TKPhi Damn Proud
BSME 2009

You conveniently forgot:

3) The XFL minimum of $10,400

4) $0 and get your real estate license.

Nick Gallo is going to be good and Mitchell will keep getting better. Keene was crucial to the offense and a fan favorite the past 2 years but I think we'll be alright. Having enough weapons on offense isn't our problem, it's getting them the ball.

Gobble Till You Wobble

Pinkney out of Vandy probably top TE coming out this year. After that it seems like there's a steep drop off. Could be thin year for 1st through 3rd round tight end picks in the draft. That could help Rambo.

JP

This thread is just poison. Jeez.

Now finish up them taters; I'm gonna go fondle my sweaters.

To lunch? Sure. It's about that time, eh, chap?

Now finish up them taters; I'm gonna go fondle my sweaters.

Keene was smart to leave- production is waning with Mitchell getting more throws, and he is basically the battering ram blocker with 2 -3 targets a game. His stats probably have peaked. Not many half backs in the NFL. not sure he translates to TE- maybe a tweener in size. Good luck and I hope you have a successful career.