UNC Post-Game Commiseration Thread

This is where I'm at.

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Justin Fuente is a terrible football coach and every game acts as a weekly reminder to it.

What he did to this program is criminal negligence. We legitimately may never recover from where he took us.

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You can't pin this all on Fuente. It's a contributing factor for sure but a lot of today goes on this staff. This offense is absolutely abysmal.

And I'm not sure next year will be much better. To change the culture we're probably going to have a ton of roster turnover in the offseason. Not sure next year will be much better honestly

This roster is completely on Fuente. Sometimes it's not just the "X"s and the "O"s, it's also about the Jimmy's and the Joe's.

Go Hokies!

The offense is abysmal because the depth on the OL is abysmal.

Seriously. We have only 6 total scholarship players who are older than r-Fr. Not only is this new staff trying to bring in new techniques, but the players don't have the experience. If we rotate more than 1 player out, we have freshman playing. That's never a recipe for success.

Once Dzansi (a Beamer signee) leaves, 4 of the top 5 OL recruits are Pry signees. Jack Hollifield is the highest rated Fuente OL recruit still on the team.

Never Forget #1 Overall Seed UVA 54, #64 UMBC 74

You are wrong!

Even when you get skunked; fishing never lets you down. ๐ŸŽฃ

Oh vey. That sucked.

Go Hokies!

Show me the rebuild, that's it. Show me any evidence of the rebuild and I'll believe. But fourth and fifth year players making regular boneheaded plays, not hustling to the snap to avoid a questionable first down, Grant's vision to rocket the ball into well-defended players...I could go on and on.

I want to believe but this staff is not giving me reason to so far.

And lastly, 10 points against the 126th ranked NCAA defense is criminal. It's a huge red flag against this staff, rebuild or not.

It's the new coaches first year. How about we give them time? This was their fifth game for Pete's sake.

Go Hokies!

Show me improvement from weeks one to five, with a year to work with these players, and I'll be with you. But they've been wildly inconsistent with 27 seniors, and they aren't helped by questionable calls from their coaches on what seems like almost every series.

You can only kick this fanbase in the teeth so many times over the last 4-5 years and not expect them to have trouble buying into a rebuild which involves getting their asses handed to them every week.

Let me just point out that they're the Fuente seniors who chose not to leave.

God bless 'em, but this isn't a seasoned football team.

We don't have 27 senior starters. Stop throwing 27 around like it means something. How many of them are starters? The fact that NOT all 22 starters are seniors says something.

You threw out there that their defense is really bad, and why can't we score points on a REALLY bad defense? Because our offense is just as bad. You cherry picked that their defense is bad without also looking at how bad our offense is.

People complained about how many penalties we were committing, but this week it was 3 for 22. That's way better!

I had dinner with an FSU fan tonight. We talked about how bad they were under Taggart. I mean, they sucked with a bunch of 5-star talent on the team. At least we suck because we legit don't have much talent or experience, especially in the two-deep. This year was ALWAYS going to suck bad, and people who thought we would do well because of a "weak coastal" totally ignored that we were/are worse than all of them, with really thick O&M glasses.

We need to look for any silver lining we can, and if you or anyone else can't, it's better to not watch this year, because it WILL. NOT. BE. PRETTY.

I think/hope Pry is the guy, but he needs WAY more than spring (uh, hello, not all new recruits are here then) and fall camps and 5 games given how bad this roster is.

And for all the people who seem to think that success is almost exclusively based off talent a team can bring onboard, I want you to explain how Vince Lombardi was able to turn a 1-10-1 team into a championship team within just a few years. It wasn't from a massive influx of talent. Coaching matters. The question is, how good are ours, and how good can we be with the talent they can get.

Again, if talent matters so much, explain how in 2016, we lost to Clemson 35-42, then Ohio State, a team with a lot more talent than us, got shut out by Clemson, 31-0. Shut out. Some of you may not have heard me - shut out! Talent matters, but it's not everything. We just need to see where our coaches can get us. And while talent isn't everything - it is something, and ours is really freaking bad. Our coaches need time. We need to give it to them.

We don't have 27 senior starters. Stop throwing 27 around like it means something. How many of them are starters? The fact that NOT all 22 starters are seniors says something.

I've seen that number thrown around occasionally on TKP. Based on my count from the depth chart, I see:

  • 4 seniors in the 2-deep on offense
  • 5 seniors starting on defense

That's about 20% of the 2-deep, and 1/3 of the alleged 27 seniors on our team. No idea where that number came from.

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Thanks! I figured you would be on top of that type of info. Not sure if you saw my other comment about our current roster talent level compared to the talent level going back the past 30 years. I figured you might have some thoughts on that as well.

Vince Lombardi was able to turn a 1-10-1 team into a championship team within just a few years.

I highlighted the key part of this post. It's no wonder the likes of Billy Napier ran away from our program - too many expecting a Irk Russell style 1 season comeback.

Anyone not ready for a 2-10, then off the TV and go outside and enjoy the season this fall. I keep reading the same suggestion every week and not wnough folks are heeding it.

'89 Hokie alum, former staff, former faculty. Living in Jawja - a rescue Dawg married to a Fauxkie. Navigating the curious spaces between the ACC and the SEC since 2009.

Anyone not ready for a 2-10, then off the TV and go outside and enjoy the season this fall.

^^^^^THIS ^^^^^

Or keep watching and don't expect our program to be any different than the vast majority of D1 programs. 2-10 was a rational prediction. We have been spoiled with a long term super-star coach and the near immediate success of the previous regime. (Yes I know the last couple were mediocre at best.) It's going to take some roster turnover and perhaps even some coaching turnover to get this sorted out. Patience is not in the Hokie nation vocabulary. But it needs to be.

"Don't go to, go through"

You're enraged, we get it.

I'm not sure why you set your expectations unrealistically high, but you did, and that is the entire reason for your rage.

"... I think he played his nuts off. And you can quote me on that shit."

A lot of people said before the season: "I know that we're going to lose a lot of games, but I just want to see us play hard, hit hard and look like a football team again". I didn't see any of that yesterday.

I wouldn't pin any hopes of seeing the results of a rebuild this year.

Bowen isn't improving at all, it will be interesting to see if Pry sticks with him for year 2 or if things get shaken up. If Bowen stays for part deux, it's do or die for him. I see lots of attrition happening this off-season, the roster will look totally different for better or worse.

Dearth of talent all around. That's the majority of the problem. The staff isn't giving us much to be hopeful about to this point, but I'm obviously willing to see what future seasons hold before completely jumping ship on this staff.

Fuente was held on for 1-2 years too long (at a minimum), and it shows. We're a shell of what we were from even the last 2 Beamer seasons.

I'm a Hokie to my core, and that will never change. But I don't expect any more wins this season. LOLUVA is our only remote shot at another W in my opinion, and I'm not confident about it.


Georgia tech I think is our only legit other shot at a win

I'm still holding out hope to squeak by UVa.

I need to prepare myself for a loss, but I'm not sure I can handle losing to liberty again.

"Hokie religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid." Han Solo

I agreed last night, then woke up this morning and saw they beat Pitt ๐Ÿ˜‚


They beat Pitt. On the road. In the rain. Don't get your hopes up.

'89 Hokie alum, former staff, former faculty. Living in Jawja - a rescue Dawg married to a Fauxkie. Navigating the curious spaces between the ACC and the SEC since 2009.

We're a shell of what we were from even the last 2 Beamer seasons.

Man, that point hits hard. I used to think that Frank double-fisting donuts at the end of regulation at Wake in 2014 was the absolute bottom of the barrel for this program. It's crazy just how fool's gold 2016 (and to an extent, 2017) were.

We will rebound, the question is how far. Pry has the DNA of a good FBS head coach at the right school. But Frank was a few-in-a-lifetime legend - it's a lot to ask for another legendary head coach who will take us to the top, especially in this football environment.

If in the next few years we can get back to 8-5, trend upward in recruiting, show some life on offense and keep showing other signs of improvement, I'll be thrilled. But let's remember that HCFB was 2-8-1 in his 6th season at Tech, and it was another 7 years before reaching the National Championship. Dabo took 7 years and limitless resources to turn Clemson into a national champion.

Being an elite program takes a long time and a lot of patience, effort and dedication from the team, AD and fan base. If we want it, apathy simply cannot set in.

I think we have to be very careful about canonizing Beamer. He was a great coach, but he wasn't a Lombardi. He was a Vince Dooley. Dooley accomplished much on the back of Irk Russell and his Junkyard Dawgs (check out The Letter if you've never read it. Irk's salutation of "Gentlemen - and Linemen:") is just the beginning.
Frank accomplished a LOT on the back of Bud Foster. Many seasons we made it to a bowl on the shoulders of our defense.
Forgetting this puts us the real danger of the Wilderness like what Alabama went through after Bear Bryant retired. What, 30 years of failed coaches until they got Saban? Every candidate for awhile needed a tie to Bryant's empire - that Crimson tide bloodline. And it cost them for decades.
I loved Frank - still do - even as I think about every time I was yelling GOOOOO when we were 4th and short. And we punted.
There were good teams under Bill Dooley (Vince's brother) - we played the peach bowl when I was in undergrad. And actually won the damn game. Fuente inherited Bud and some good recruits and frittered it away. More people would have seen him for the bad hire he was had Bud retired sooner IMO.
Pry remains to be seen. I want to see more energy and engagement. I want to see him arguing with refs on close calls. Not seeing that so far. Potential recruits need to see a coach willing to fight with them on the battlefield.

'89 Hokie alum, former staff, former faculty. Living in Jawja - a rescue Dawg married to a Fauxkie. Navigating the curious spaces between the ACC and the SEC since 2009.

Potential recruits need to see a coach willing to fight with them on the battlefield.

This may have been Fuente's high point: in 2016, at Notre Dame, when the normally stoic Fuente "lost it" at the officials on that cold day. The team seemed to get a spark from this and puled out the narrow W over the Irish. At the time it seemed like a breakthrough in team and fan bonding with the promising new coach.

I think the literal high point of Fuente's regime was Enter Sandman during the Clemson game in 2017.

Honestly after the ND game in 2016, I thought we had our guy for the next 15 years. Boy was I mistaken.

Yea... the best game of Fuente's career was losing to Clemson in the ACCCG. Never beat a team that finished the season ranked... wild.

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Man, just think. All the excitement and hype around the program after that performance. Kirk Herbstreit saying on air how our program was about to completely take off under Fuente. Now six years later...wow how things can turn.

It really is wild to think about... Equally wild to think about it the 2019-2020 season... If we beat Kentucky in 2019, we have 9+ wins 3/4 years under Fuente. In 2020, we have three 1-score games - win those and we're 8-4, possibly 9-4 with a bowl win. Three 1-score games in 2021 too... Just imagine, we could have plausibly had 9+ wins in 5 of Fuente's 6 seasons.

But we didn't. Good coaches don't lose 3+ games/season due to 'unlucky' mistakes (see Frost, Scott).

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Glad you finished this comment like you did because good coaching don't let those games get away. Year 1 we were winning the close ones, Year 2 we let a few slip, by Year 3 close losses to inferior talent were becoming part of the norm not the exception and trended the wrong way.

If Jerrod stays in year 2 who knows what strides this program may have made in recruiting which could've kept Fuente around. Again, a good coach could probably find the correct way to communicate the reality for Evans, but he didn't and the rest is history

Yea, there's a lot of 'what ifs' around the Fuente era. It's probably why he refused to shake up the staff - I imagine he truly believed that they were a couple blown plays away from success, and that they were doing the right things, just getting 'unlucky' results.

I know a lot of people here hate him, but I want to see him as a P5 OC and see how he does. Would be great to see him at the Nick Saban School for Coaches Who Can't Coach Good (TM).

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Beamer wasn't Lombardi, but he did bring the program into the national spotlight and the obvious National Championship berth. He should be canonized at VT, and really already has. The statue is proof.

Never would have happened without Bud Foster. We never had much offense - it was Beamer's special teams and Bud's D that made that statue happen.

'89 Hokie alum, former staff, former faculty. Living in Jawja - a rescue Dawg married to a Fauxkie. Navigating the curious spaces between the ACC and the SEC since 2009.

There is no question as to Bud's value and contribution.

Still, I don't anyone can really say that Beamer isn't deserving on being canonized of his own merit.

Sure, he doesn't get there without Bud. or Michael Vick. or Bruce Smith. or Bill Dooley. or lots of other key players and coaches along the way. Most of whom he put in their roles.

This isn't a case of "he didn't build that". This is a case of "he DID build that".

Though he has had lots of help, and no man stands alone, Beamer is the MVP of VT football.

I keep seeing this desire for Pry to argue with the refs, and I just don't get it.

For the most part, yelling at the refs is high risk, low reward. I've rarely seen the refs even consider the coach's point (other than the 2016 Belk Bowl), and there's a high risk of getting flagged. And obviously, this team cannot spare any sort of yardage.

I can't speak for everyone, but for me, it's a sign that the coach is engaged with the game and will do anything to stick up for his players.

Say it's a 3rd and 1 and the refs give your team a terrible spot. Or maybe the coaches call a false start when the other team obviously jumped across the line first. Do you want a coach that is fired up and lets the official know about it (obviously in a respectful way), or one that just says, "meh, its just 5 yards."

The example above about Fuente in teh 2016 Notre Dame is a perfect one. We were getting KILLED. Fuente lets the officials hear it after a bad false start call, he gets an unsportsmanlike penalty, and its like it turned on a switch in the team. All of a sudden the team was fired up, and we come back from 17 down and win. I mean, it was a random 5-yard penalty in a game 6 years ago, and yet I still remember it as one of the few times I was really digging Fuente (can't believe I just said that).

I'm sure that former players can vouch for the fact that the way your coach reacts to these sorts of things show that they have a staff that will stick up for them through thick and thin.

Fuente lets the officials hear it after a bad false start call, he gets an unsportsmanlike penalty, and its like it turned on a switch in the team. All of a sudden the team was fired up

For this example there are even more examples of it doing absolutely nothing (see: Narduzzi, Pat 2016).

I'm sure that former players can vouch for the fact that the way your coach reacts to these sorts of things show that they have a staff that will stick up for them through thick and thin.

When I played I couldn't really care less if my coach argued a call or not, again most of the time it doesn't do any good. You can't control the refs but you CAN control your team and coach them. I can't begin to tell you how many times as a referee I've been yelled at over a missed call here or there and the coach neglect to actually coach the team. Many a game lost from focusing on the wrong things.


The problem is, as bad as our offense is, getting them "fired up" isn't going to change much of anything, it just isn't. I think the risk/reward proposition is a good one. Getting penalized and hoping our offense can dig their way out of that hole is a lot to ask. See our previous games. I agree on the don't even risk it.

Now in a couple years when we have a better offense on the field, maybe we will see it then, but who knows. I mean, it's not like we were a bad call or 2 away from wining against UNC. ODU we gave away from several perspectives. And West Virginia wasn't close either. I think if you're going to lose it on a ref to get your team energized, in order for it to be effective, your O needs to be able to put points on the board in the first place and it's probably gotta be a close game.

So doing it in either the WVU or UNC games doesn't seem like it would have made sense.

Bowen isn't improving? Or you're not seeing the improvement you want to see on offense?

Dude, we have a turnover prone QB. Bad OLine. Injuries with some of our best RBs. You will not see a "good" offensive performance with this group. The bulk of the roster issues were all on O. Bowen has a much harder hill to climb than Marve had (10 freaking RBs, no real experience at receiver, was it 2 or 3 of our OLine that left). I mean, really - Bowen needs to go??? If anything, I'd think he should get MORE time to be able to prove himself.

Edit: Speaking of the Beamer years, I don't think we can make a true comparison, but have we had this little talent in like the past 30 years? Not joking, and food for thought - have we really had this little talent, and if not, we need to keep that in mind when evaluating this team, their performance, and how much improvement they make.

Bowen needs to go???

I never once said that. If you want to take what I said about him being under more pressure to show improvement year 2 that's fine, it's the internet. But I never said he needs to go now, nor do I think that.

We all know there's no talent, no previous coaching, he's a first time OC etc., but we can also see that his playcalls at times are head scratching. It's definitely a possibility Pry will look to change things up if Bowen isn't following his vision.


I never once said that.

What does do or die mean to you? If you don't think he needs to go, you need to use a different phrase.

Edit: and saying "it will be interesting to see if Pry stays with him." If you think Pry may get rid of him, not sure why you'd think that unless you think he's not doing well, and you said you don't see any improvement from him.

So if at the end of year 2 Bowens offense looks exactly the same, you're keeping him for year 3?

It may be a bit harsh to say it that way, but that's the reality. He doesn't need to go now.


In your first post, you said it'll be interesting to see if Pry sticks with him FOR year two, not "sticks with him if we don't see improvement AFTER a second year."

You're arguing against stuff I said, but I'm going off what you wrote.

Edit: If you're looking for improvement in year two, you should have written that it would be interesting to see if party sticks with him for year THREE.

I think what I'm trying to say and not getting across very well, is that I could see Pry shaking it up after this season if Bowen isn't doing what he's envisioning. To add to that, if Bowen is here year 2 and we don't see improvement in his playcalling/overall gameplan, I think he gets ousted.

This isn't to say I'm calling for his head, as I've said I'm absolutely willing to let it all marinade and let Pry/Bowen do his thing. But again, I don't think anything is a given except we're a bad football team. This is all from the perspective of an armchair Hokie who doesn't know Xs and Os like French or any football coach, I just see what we all see: a bad football team that can't afford to keep doing the same thing over and over and expect different results.


Fair, I understand what you're saying. I very seriously doubt Pry would can Bowen after this year given our current talent. I think Pry will want to see how good a recruiter Bowen is and what he can do with whatever recruits and transfers in next year.

And even if Bowen isn't a great recruiter, but the staff under him are, and Bowen turns around things a lot in year 2. One way or another, our taken TALENT on O is so bad this year, I really think we just won't be able to get an accurate read on what Bowen is capable of, and feel pretty sure Pry knows that.

Edited for clarity (stupid virtual keyboard and autocorrect).

One way or another, our taken on O is so bad this year, I really think we just won't be able to get an accurate read on what Bowen is capable of

Fair point. Patience is a virtue.


Prior to that successful 4th and 7, they showed Bowen being extremely agitated on his headset. I imagine/assumed he was fighting for the go for it call vs 3 pts. If a correct assumption, I give him a plus for that.

...with spirits true and faithful...

So if at the end of year 2 Bowens offense looks exactly the same, you're keeping him for year 3?

Assuming it's not 'exactly' the same, I wouldn't be opposed to it IF recruiting was much improved

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I completely agree with you on all points and primarily to maybe further discussion, my only real gripe with Bowen so far, considering what you've said, I can't figure out what he's calling or why.

There seems to little to continuity or plan except for that one drive. To me in this game it seemed like we needed to go heavy run from the start control clock and limit our defensive time on field. (I also understand that king can't carry that right now) but it still seems like every play is a contested or hot pass into a tight window.

I'm still figuring this out.

I mean, it's gotta be tough calling plays given the skills and talent (or lack thereof) on the line, the capabilities of his QB, the injuries we've seen for our RBs (do you put in a crap RB to block, then you're telegraphing throw, or do you risk a starter who may not be 100% to pass block for instance), and some of the drops we've seen from the receivers. I don't envy Bowen one bit.

Wanted to give you a reply - see below bar's post. Appreciate you

I'm still figuring this out.

Tough to call a good game when you're one dimensional and frequently seeing 3rd & long

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Responding to both: I think we're all in a circle jerks by this point. My frustration might be with the logic.

It's been stated "we're going to run the ball."
Ok do that then. I'd almost (ALMOST) rather just see us ram out heads into a wall repeatedly til we figure that part out than commit costly turnovers or have quick 3 and outs

But then again we can't really rely on the d either so it's absolutely rock/hard place 101.

I, too, do not envy the task but I do want to see some development (no need for that right now, but it's a vent, er sorry commiseration thread...so)

I'm still figuring this out.

That's the tough thing too. Because just beating on the run when it likely isn't going to get us anywhere probably won't pay much in the way of dividends. We can say we're just going to try to get better next year, but Bowen also has to at least try to see if he can get something going on O and win games if he can. I mean, if we pound the rock and get 75 yards a game (total), that's not helping anything either.

Just a freaking tough place for a Bowen to be in I think.

Maybe it just boils down to finding the identity and settling in. Which will undoubtedly take time and requires healthy playmakers.

(I will say if Wells could settle just a bit more and add touch on some throws I think a lot would open up)

I'm still figuring this out.

Honestly didn't expect much this year so I'm not terribly disappointed. We knew it was going to be a painful year. I can't stand the constant dunking on Pry I see on other sites. The man is 5 games into being a head coach. Of course he's going to have missteps. Comes with the territory. I just want to see this team not give up and play hard for the seniors.

May we all get what we want and never what we deserve.


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This is home

Dang, did they really? I listen to their podcast occasionally but have missed the last few episodes.

How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Jet Sweep

Especially when a lot of them were ride or die for Fuente

"Why gobble gobble chumps asks such good questions, I will never know." - TheFifthFuller

Was this from their main account or one of the individuals? They gave Fuente one of those extra long extendable leashes, so I'd be surprised, especially because they seem to have some good connections to the athletic department and try to remain a bit more "professional" than other pods. I have noticed BRM has been noticeably more critical of Pry than he ever was of Fuente. I found the objectivity refreshing, albeit ironic.

"That's it guys. Let's get out of here. That cold drink's waitin' on us, let's go." - Mike Young after win no. 300.


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This is home

Really? I follow them pretty closely and did not see anything that indicates going off the deep end. Do you have any links / references to said social media posts?

Based on the lack of response, I don't think there's anything to back up your argument, Alum07. The next time you post nonsensical information at the expense of others, make sure it's supported.

Me trying to gather the strength to watch this team every week hoping that they won't be boat-raced by unranked competition

Oy vye dios mio. Godblessbchinesechicken..... We looked like we forgot to play football out there today...

2 time Longwood grad married to a Hokie.

I know we are technically 1-1 in the ACC so on paper not out of it. . . But. Throw this year in the garbage, record wise at least, and get anyone with returning eligibility playing time. Brown may get us one more win but what's the point if he's gone next year. Either Wells learns on the field or you call him a known asset and give it to one of the other young guys in the qb room.

The portal is not the answer. It's essentially playing the lottery every year instead of developing guys in house for our specific system.

Here lies It's a Stroman Jersey I Swear, surpassed in life by no one because he intercepted it.

Wells either gets better or becomes a backup.

But let's not blame all the drops on him. The receivers have a job, too.

Wells should be third string. We have seen the ceiling.

Wells shouldn't be throwing everything on a rope either, especially in the rain.

There were quite a few drops by the guys getting the ball as well. The INT was just bad thou.

Why did everyone expect this team to be good this year. We were projected to win 5 or 6 games. Year one with a new staff and no game breakers on either side of the ball. I think you let the young guys get as much playing time as possible going forward to build for the future. Let's all just keep supporting the team and not trash or throw them under the bus. And please stop with the Fuente stuff, he is gone and we need to get pass that as a fan base. Go Hokies!!!!!


And 5 or 6 was the stretch goal.

There's a lot of really mad people in the comments who were adamant that we would win 7 games this year because the ACC was bad and argued strongly against anyone who suggested that things really were bad. Many of those same people are calling for coaches to be fired right now.

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Just want to say, as one of those people who was adamant about 7 wins because the ACC sucks, I at least am most definitely not calling for the coaches to be fired. I thought 7 wins were possible, but am also willing to give Pry and staff a ton of slack because I also know just how poor the recruiting and player retention was towards the end of the Fuente years.

Also, in general I'm pretty convinced that the people who show up to this site during the offseason is a slightly different group than who show during the regular season.

How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Jet Sweep

My 7 wins hope didn't consider a field goal snapped over the holders head and returned for a touchdown. I thought we'd go 2-2 or 3-1 over the first four games, then 0-4 in October, then close 4-0. Technically we're on track for that, however my expectations are closer to what they were at the end of last season, which was this is a 4-win team at best.

Outside it's night time, but inside it's LeDay

Those folks need to get out of our division bubble and watch some other teams on Saturdays. There are MAC and Sun Belt teams that would make them think it was Sunday by comparison. I'll always love my Hokies, even when it's hard. And it's just gonna be hard for awhile. My guess was 3-9 for the year.

'89 Hokie alum, former staff, former faculty. Living in Jawja - a rescue Dawg married to a Fauxkie. Navigating the curious spaces between the ACC and the SEC since 2009.

Not a single person I have seen has called for any coach on this staff to be fired ๐Ÿ˜‚

This is an {amusing, annoying} part of this whole situation. We're in some kind of weird honeymoon period where a subset of the fans bristle at any criticism of Pry or his staff, and their defense mechanism is to exaggerate that criticism to the point of absurdity.

Critic: I'm disappointed by $whatever.

Them: You are delusional! This is a ground-up rebuild! You need to give him at least $number years to fix it.

Critic: I agree it's a rebuild, I just think there should be some positive signs in certain areas by now, even if it doesn't reflect in the W-L record. Things like play-calling, penalties, run blocking, etc.

Them: You should just quit watching. This is a bad team that's probably not going to win again this year. But you're out of your mind if you don't agree that it's entirely Fu's fault.

Critic: I think if we could just correct a few things, we have a chance of going 2-2 or maybe even 3-1 to close it out. And if we can't do that, then maybe Pry should consider some offseason changes.


Ironically, some of these same folks were the among the most aggressive calling for Fu to be fired... it's just... weird.

"Those who jump into the void owe no explanation to those who stand and watch."

I think this is a pretty good summary

I do think it's too early to fire anyone. I don't think they should go without criticism. But I do think it's important to understand that these coaches probably didn't fully understand what they had on the roster until getting into some real football games.

I'm fine with being critical. I'm also fine with waiting to see how things go. This season was always going to be bad. I'd like to be seeing more progress week-to-week than we are seeing but I'm not ready to peg that as a reason for concern yet. Maybe I'm being too hesitant because Fuente's first year was so good that I got caught up in the idea that he was the right guy to turn things around and then it all fell apart. I don't know if Pry is the right guy for the job. I don't know if he isn't. I don't think one season tells us much. Especially the first season. I'm not thrilled at how green our coaching staff is but I'll give them benefit of the doubt for year one. If we're sitting on 2 wins going into the middle of October next year I'll be much more concerned. For now, I'm just trying not to get too caught up in the "He should be fired!" vs "He needs 5 years!" debate

Onward and upward

It's also a "vent" thread

I'm still figuring this out.

If Nick Saban were coaching this team right now I would be shocked if we would be any better than we are right now. Same goes for Napier or Clawson or anyone else we might have thought about hiring. It's just going to take a while.......

Talent can overcome coaching deficiencies.


And a severe lack of talent can make even the best coaches look bad

This is my school
This is home

I can't believe I've been giving Alum07 legs this year. Haha

Cred to you Alum07.

Ut Prosim Ad Dei Gloriam

According to 247's team talent composite, VT is 53rd and Kansas is 72nd....Kansas is 5-0. Not discounting what you're saying, but coaching can make a difference

Editing because I replied prior to yours.

It's been 5 games. It's way, way too early to make any assessment on coaching acumen with this staff

This is my school
This is home

Coaching, if it's going to make a difference, I'd assume needs more than one offseason and 5 games. Yes, Kansas' coach is newer, but still has had one more season with his team than Pry has had. Maybe next season we'll start 5-0?

Kansas is:

  1. In year 2 of a rebuild (they went 2-10 last year)
  2. Implementing a variation of the triple option (so small linemen are a good thing)
  3. Coached by someone with over a decade of head coaching experience (including time in D3) who has successfully rebuilt 2 teams from scratch before.

VT is:

  1. In year 1 of a rebuild
  2. Implementing a power-blocking scheme (and our fanbase would be pissed if we implemented a version of the triple... just see some of the responses when I suggested Jamie Chadwell as a potential hire)
  3. Coached by a first time head coach

Kansas's situation is NOT an apples-to-apples comparison

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To be fair, a Kansas comparison should be based on the same number of games - isn't their coach on year 2?

'89 Hokie alum, former staff, former faculty. Living in Jawja - a rescue Dawg married to a Fauxkie. Navigating the curious spaces between the ACC and the SEC since 2009.

On offense

I will say... it's evident that part of the struggle on offense is that we're switching to a completely different system. If Pry wanted to run something more similar to Fuente's system (or we hired Clawson, Chadwell, etc) the offense would be doing better. That's one of the reasons the defense is moving quicker; a lot of these players were recruited to fit into Foster's system, which is similar to Pry's.

That said, if Pry thinks this offensive system gives our program the best chance of long term success, then we should start implementing it now, even if that means we lose out this season.

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Yeah, we're losing this season no matter what.

They have to put in their system now, and take the lumps.

if Pry thinks this offensive system gives our program the best chance of long term success, then we should start implementing it now, even if that means we lose out this season.

This is what ripping off the band-aid feels like, program-wise. It'll be better in the long run than letting things fester, but it definitely stings right now.

Spot on, could not agree more.

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But what's the system? I'm not an X and O guy like some folks on here, but I see no identity whatsoever.

It sound great to say "but we're implementing a system"...but that's kind of a meaningless statement if you are not improving on a week to week basis. This team is getting worse.

We might beat GT. But other than that, looking really bad

Also not an X/O's guy, but based on (1) the offensive staff's backgrounds, (2) the comments the staff has made in the offseason, and (3) some things I've seen on the field, my hypothesis is that the offensive vision is a 'smash mouth' RPO where we pound the rock, take to the air when it's available, and use tempo to wear down the opposing defense. It would be similar to PSU in the Moorhead/McSorely days, or maybe what Minnesota does with a little more tempo.

Admittedly, this is a bit of wishful thinking, but I will say given that the staff's background in power blocking (Rudolph), the RPO (Glen), and time at PSU (Bowen), this would make sense. We've see the staff use tempo, which I thought they mixed in really nicely after big first downs (I noticed it immediately against ODU)

My theory is that our current offense is ~10% of this final vision. I think tempo from playbook after all of the false starts. The staff is struggling to implement their blocking scheme with the current line, so the run game has been simplified. Since passing is the only thing we do mildly effectively, we're focusing on that.

At the end of the day, I admit (1) there is at best limited evidence to support my hypothesis and (2) I am not football-savvy at all, so I am more/less talking out of my ass. It's very possible that this staff is just throwing a bunch of concepts at the wall and has no idea what they're doing. But for now, I feel like we have no choice but to trust in their plan (even if all we can do is speculate about what it is/if it exists).

We might beat GT. But other than that, looking really bad

Duke and UVA are still in play as well (moreso the latter). Maybe we steal another one if/when Thomas returns.

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Don't forget that our top RBs have been banged up and it's early in the season. That's gotta make some of the X's and O's More difficult as well.

I'm also not an X and Os guy, but my understanding is we're trying to do basically what PSU and Michigan do

Outside it's night time, but inside it's LeDay

The quality of our opponent has more or less increased each week.
If you think we look bad now, the rest of the month is going to be rough.
But as sports comedian FunnyMaine said today, ACC can't decide which teams are going to be good this year yet.

'89 Hokie alum, former staff, former faculty. Living in Jawja - a rescue Dawg married to a Fauxkie. Navigating the curious spaces between the ACC and the SEC since 2009.

I disagree 100%. There are offensive staffs that could score >30 ppg with this roster. I am not saying it's common or they would be good for our team long term, but I'm confident there are guys who could scheme up 30+ with the pieces we have and defenses we face.

It's easier to have success with offense than defense which is part of what's so maddening about VT football. We have the thing that most other teams don't have which is a decent defense. If we could just do the bare minimum on offense we could win a bunch of games. Dave Aranda faced this same issue his first year at Baylor and by year 2 they were Big 12 champions. Hopefully Pry can make the same sort of adjustments this offseason. For Aranda the major change was hiring Jeff Grimes as OC. I'm not saying Bowen or anyone else needs to be fired, but some sort of major adjustments are needed.

Unfortunately I think long term improvements by Pry will come at the cost of of roster turnover. The body language of this team was extremely concerning Saturday. There was a large group of mostly defensive players engaged throughout the game. Most of the offensive players were scattered and disengaged. The overall mood was that of a losing team. Don't want to pin the blame on the players, a lot of it could be a first time coaching staff learning as they go, BUT I believe the solution to the culture issue will involve a lot of attrition and bringing in guys that better fit a winning VT culture

We looked anemic on both sides of the ball...

2 time Longwood grad married to a Hokie.

I like Pry, I want Pry to succeed here.

But patience can only last so long. That was brutal.

Worst part is that this staff can't scheme to our players on offense. They are insistent on making a square peg for a round hole.

We're 5 games in on season 1.

The patience required hasn't even started yet.

This post should be revisited on Oct. 1, 2024

VT Marketing Class of 2009
Current Roanoke-Hokie
Go Hokies!

Fair enough

Ut Prosim Ad Dei Gloriam

There are obvious deficiencies with this coaching staff that extend beyond the "bare cupboard"'.

This staff has not acclimated to the talent on roster, and that is worrying.

That's the problem, you're assuming there's talent, especially on O. We had 10 RBs on the roster, our best receivers left, we had a couple linemen leave. We were desperate to get any freaking peg in empty holes we could - square in round or otherwise.

There isn't any talent on this roster. That is the problem.

The fact that this comment got downvoted means some of y'all need to lighten the hell up.

Some of y'all act like any remote criticism of this staff if completely unreasonable, and there are things with this staff that are just not working right now beyond the talent deficit.

You say that like you've seen another rebuild in a P5 conference with a roster as bad as the one we had, bad S&C program, no player development, and apparently didn't hate to lose (in at least one case, wanted to lose on purpose to avoid a bowl game). Before you say that this coaching staff has things that aren't working, you need to realize how bad the roster was, how bad the culture was, and how big and broad scope this rebuild was. It sounds like you're looking at a very narrow scope in your evaluation and that's why you don't think the coaches are doing a better job than they are. Or in some cases, Pry has acknowledged where they need to get better.

So yeah, I sincerely doubt there have been many other rebuilds that are of the same magnitude as ours is, so without anything as a basis for comparison, you just have a general notion of what should be better without an understanding of what's fair for the coaches in how bad we are.

That's not the point I was making but to entertain your scenario:


This year.

Also, just take a look at the 247 Talent Composit.

We rank a spot behind the likes of:
50. Cincinnati
51. Minnesota
52. Purdue
53. Virginia Tech

Acting like this team has zero talent on it is just ridiculous.

It's a far cry from where we want to be, but some of the rhetoric on this sub about talent level just doesn't hold up.

You're missing a huge point. Looking at a composite, I'm almost positive, only looks at all the talent on a roster, not how much of it is Freshmen, not whether most of it is on defense, how much experience any of the talent has, or if a bunch of it was in 10 RBs. Pry was trying people out at different positions to fill empty spots. If you're a 3 star RB - do you have the same number of stars as a receiver or corner?

Again, this roster is fucked up because we recruited so poorly across all positions and did stupid shit like get 10 RBs on the roster. If we had 80 4 and 5 star QBs on the roster, and our talent composite looked amazing, would you still make the argument that we weren't short on talent? Yeah, we technically have talent, but it's not going to apply on the field. So, yeah, maybe we have some talent, but we want to be higher than 50s, we want the talent to not be soft (not hitting hard and making tackles on D), we need the talent to be more experienced, and not have been put in different positions. And talent is somewhat subjective also - take linemen, does your scheme call for massive guys who don't need to move much, or guys who are a little smaller but lighter on their feet? Both may be rated pretty good, but if you're changing what you're doing, the guys who fit the other play style aren't going to be useful even if they are rated kinda high.

In short, inexperienced talent at the 50s is probably going to play like 70s or 80s level. Oh, and our S&C sucked the past 6 years. But I think the point is, you can't say we're a talented team when, if our goal was to have a recruiting class somewhere between 20-30 each year, which would average to around 25th composite ranking. So saying we have talent because we're at 50 seems like you're almost making the case that we aren't as talented as we should be (so not "NO" talent, but not good enough). And it's inexperienced, playing a new scheme, while fixing some pretty bad culture issues.

So yeah, we don't have "no" talent, but what we have still ain't gonna produce the results we want, especially not this year.

One exercise I'd like to do is look at the talent distribution by offense/defense. I have a hypothesis that if the talent distribution is very uneven (especially if the talent is heavily distributed towards defense), the team is going to struggle, but if the talent distribution is balanced, the team may be able to out perform their composite score. Right now this is just a hypothesis - I'd like to run the numbers to see if there is true to this.

Another thing that is harder to quantify is personnel/system fit - Cincinnati, Minnesota, and Purdue have had the same head coach for at least 5 years, and an OC that has spent at least 4 years with the team. That means that (a) these coaches have had ample time to get guys in that fit their system and (b) the players have had ample time to learn the system. Again, VT doesn't have this.

the rhetoric on this sub about talent level just doesn't hold up.

It's a nuanced issue because it's not just talent level; talent distribution, player/system fit, and coaching ability/decision-making all drive results.

Kansas, Cincy, Minnesota, Purdue all have guys that fit their scheme. I would imagine that Elko has a system that matches the guys on the roster at Duke (I haven't watched any duke this year, so idk).

IMO, it's too early to determine how much of the (lack of) results on offense can be attributed to talent, personnel fit, and coaching.

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Sounds like you agree with what I said right above, except your explanation is more eloquent ๐Ÿ˜‚

Recruiting rankings are probably not the best indicator of talent.

At the beginning of the year, VT had 5 All-ACC players (according to Athlon Sports). The top player is P Peter Moore (2nd team). The other four are 3rd team: RB Malachi Thomas, OL Kaden Moore, LB Dax Hollifield, and S Chamarri Conner. The talent level was expected to be low. And I doubt Moore and Conner would still be considered 3rd team all ACC.

By comparison:
Pitt: 14
Clemson: 13
Miami: 12
NC State: 11
WF: 10
UNC: 10
SU: 9
FSU: 9
UL: 8
Duke: 7
UVA: 5
BC: 5
GT: 3

๐Ÿฆƒ ๐Ÿฆƒ ๐Ÿฆƒ

Y'all should go to as many weddings as possible this fall on saturdays. Beer, bourbon, and prime rib >>>>> this football product

Speaking for myself: French, I'm ok without the weekly rehash. Just sayin (I also recognize it's ultimately my decision on whether to read it).

On the plus side: not a lot of penalties?

I'm still figuring this out.

Is there anything from this game you would want a breakdown of?

I was thinking how some of the younger players performed.

Some version of this would be interesting. Any of the young guys show skill sets that might indicate they fit the scheme better?

Also, any progress on O Line play or offensive play calling? I saw a few off tackle runs early, but the game plan was likely out the window pretty quickly.

Dang publisher engagement? Now I gotta be serious.

100% appreciate the work that goes into them, I just get the feeling we're going to see a lot of the same and I was hoping to save French some heartache or maybe just nausea slogging through it.

I'd be interested in reading about younger player dev, absolutely - I just think anything positive that might not be clear to untrained eyes could be a decent salve. I'm just not confident after watching that, that there is a lot of that to cherry-pick.

I'm still figuring this out.

Will take a look at a couple of young bright lights on defense that we have not seen to date, some changes on offense that were promising, but didn't break the big plays needed to keep the Hokies in the game, and "bursting down the seams" on defense.

Five star get after it 100 percent Juice Key-Playing. MAN

"bursting down the seams" on defense.

Didn't we all see this coming though? I mean, for example, I watch Dax sink into that deep zone, but when the TE is determined to get vertical there's simply no way Dax can keep up. I'm not throwing shade on him, he's one hell of a Hokie. But again, didn't we see the "seams" being an issue this season?

Is coronavirus over yet?

Dax, Johnson, Lawson, Keller, Conner, etc.

Five star get after it 100 percent Juice Key-Playing. MAN

I was definitely worried about how Pry's scheme matched up with UNC's offense. Given that no LB or safety seemed to play that well, is this a scheme problem?

"That move was slicker than a peeled onion in a bowl of snot." -Mike Burnop

I just want you to have some fun with it, if possible

I'm still figuring this out.

I didn't know that is what I wanted a breakdown of until you said it but that is exactly what I am hoping for a breakdown of.

What's more punishment for French, making him review this team throughout the season or making him write an article reviewing cheese curds in different Big Ten college towns?

Outside it's night time, but inside it's LeDay

A look at the younger players and the positive runs plays we did have in the first half.

If you feel the leather in your hand let it rip.

Someone re-explaining what targeting is and is not. 2022 edition.

In the final offensive drive of the first half (the one that lasted 5 minutes and resulted in our only TD), I felt like we saw the 'full' offense for the first time - I believe (though I may be incorrect/misremembering) that we saw play action for the first(?) time this year, as well as one or more options plays where Wells made a read.

IF my theory (for lack of a better term) is correct, it would be really interesting to see this drive broken down, and some context about what it could mean from a long term vision standpoint, what type of players we need to go after, etc. That said, if this drive was just more of the 'regular' offense we see every game, but the UNC defense just got sloppy, then maybe it's not worth y'all's time.

In general, I'm less interested about this season, and more interested about what it means for the future of the Pry/Marve/Bowen schemes. Like, if every game is a 'breadcrumb' left behind to lead us somewhere, what is that somewhere, and what does this staff need to do in the next 1-3 seasons to achieve that vision. I'm particularly interested in Bowen, because I feel like the team is only doing ~10% of his vision for the offense, and I want to know (1) what the final vision is, (2) why we're seeing so little of it, and (3) what do we need to do to get there.

Anyways, I hope I was able to somewhat effectively explain my curiosity. But I'll read whatever you guys put out; it's always A+ content.

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We kept using a WR on a wierd behind the QB sweep, why? Doesn't that bring a defender into the box? I do t understand that play.

My other questions are really things I doubt French can answer, like why are our TEs just not blocking. Why does our run blocking look like they blocked for a draw. Why is Holston playing, If we can't stretch the field vertically then why no horizontally?

Just a guess on the rbs (I'm probably just as frustrated). King is the obvious #1 but he's also obviously hampered to some extent injury wise.
Holston is the only other back that really has experience. My guess is it's primarily pass pro things. But we did see more of Black and Duke in the latter half of the game so I think they're going the development route.

When/if Thomas comes back (I don't remember what that timetable looks like if it was ever communicated) we might get some more dimensionality there

Tldr: depth

I'm still figuring this out.

Was super happy to see Duke in there and he had some good 1st down pickups

See, I was looking at Duke's number of carries and his horrible average and wondering where was Holston.

I rather some one who can get a first down on short yard situations then someone who gets stopped every time in the same situation

I must have read a thousand faces
I must have robbed them of their cause
Sickened thirst, Sickened thirst
Keeps it together
Soft white glow in the cranium
A bullseye made sedated

To my it looked like Duke was getting TFL or no gain a lot more than Holston. But I have since heard that Holston was under the weather and that explains the lack of carries.

Bringing the WR across the field in motion should act as eye candy to pull linebackers towards him, even if just for a step, or create hesitation on their part. That should create space for RBs, or other WRs. The motion WR probably needs to be considered a threat for this to work, which I don't think we've shown yet, though.

Yeah I understand the motion bur why is the WR 5 yards behind the QB? It looks way too easy to read.

I think it's just a different look to the normal jet sweep motion, like, you could do a toss/quick flip to the WR, but I'm not sure what the pros/cons are between the two.

Joe - I think that's a great idea. Rather than straight performance, I'd like to know thoughts on where our future lies. What are the things that the staff sees in young players that gives optimism for years 2, 3, and beyond. Are there things that you guys see where it is obvious the coaching staff are actually developing players.

Do we see adjustments that show the coaches are learning? This is probably tough given the players on offense this year and what the coaches were working with. An analogy might be sculpting - the defense may be more like continued work on an existing project where the O is starting from a block of clay. There may be some changes and improvements, but in the beginning, it's still going to look a lot like a block of clay. The coaches need time to turn it into something recognizable.

So basically, anything you guys see that are good signs for the future. Hell, even tracking penalty info might show some improvements over time. Is there a way to measure S&C improvements? I mean, I remember seeing guys the past few years getting gassed on long plays of less than one field length - that sure seemed like bad conditioning to me.

I think hope is what might be best for getting us past the suck that this year is sure to be full of. But I'm staying a fan and appreciate your work and the work of all your staff!!!

I don't want to hear about any of the guys not coming back next year. In fact I wish we could only play the guys will eligibility next year but I know that isn't possible. Just take our lumps now and build for the future.

Wells vs Brown

"Why gobble gobble chumps asks such good questions, I will never know." - TheFifthFuller

The lack of INTs on defense. I feel like in the past, bud in particular, would scheme to create turnovers with robber zones, more blitzes, etc. With only like one pick this year, is that more due to poor execution or are we running a defense that doesn't emphasize schemed turnovers and rather relies on guys winning one on ones

Or have we just played good QBs

Here lies It's a Stroman Jersey I Swear, surpassed in life by no one because he intercepted it.

French doing a breakdown of:
1. Pit beef spots
2. Some breweries
3. How to prepare fresh catch

We just got beat by a team with more recruiting stars than Gosnell was seeing after that hit.
I actually thought the run blocking looked slightly better. Fewer penalties. The defense held UNC to a lot of third and longs. Unfortunately, the talent on the other side converted a lot of those.
It's a rebuild, and I've expected things to be ugly. I think Pry showed us the rebuild when Will Johnson was in as early as he was.
These coaches have two options. They can try to squeak out wins and close loses with a roster that doesn't meet their needs. Or, they can focus on development for the future. I think they're doing the latter, and that's going to require patience from the fan base. This is a fan base that hasn't been through many coaching changes. Most of them have never seen us be lousy. The most vocal will be the worst kinds of fans anyway. I hope no one is buying any of what those fans are saying.

Edit: going to add that our defensive line did get some nice pressure. But it took a play when one of our linemen got tackled and another with an egregious Jersey pull to finally get a holding call. Maye had lots of opportunities to make plays because his linemen were allowed to do things without fear of penalty. We had people being dragged by the collars of their shoulder pads. I understand we didn't get called for holding either, but damn.

BC just beat Louisville 34-33. 1) How the hell did we beat BC? 2) How bad is Louisville's defense? 3) Is the ACC better than an average FCS conference?

I bleed orange and maroon and I am not happy about getting manhandled by a middling UNC team, however I agree that it is WAY too early to be calling for anybody's firing.

We all knew that Pry and company were left with a monumental hole. They are doing the heavy digging. Our part in all of this is patience and support.

If Pry is a good hire (and I still believe he is a very good hire) then we must give him room and, more importantly, time to correct the problems (which are numerous).

To be the man you gotta beat the man!

Looks like I picked the right season to not have TV. But I went to a friend's house and watched UNC debacle us. You can say we are down on talent all you want but something in addition to that is seriously amiss.

Man, I thought we'd be about 6-6, but this is a lot worse than I thought we'd look.

No passion. Undisciplined and sloppy. Zero improvement week-to-week.

And to add to that, recruiting is no better. I mean, our one QB commit in the c/o 2023 just got benched.... Welp.

Not only that, but Pry just looks so.... Clueless. You can tell he is really learning on the job. Which is understandable, but worries me too.

I really hope Pry is the guy.... but geez.

And seriously, Justin Fuente is not the reason we're THIS bad. That is such a pathetic excuse. There are dozens of teams doing more with less than what we've got to work with.

No passion. Undisciplined and sloppy. Zero improvement week-to-week.

I disagree with the no passion thing - I think it took a lot of fight for the team to go down 21-3, and then drive down the field. That was really impressive to me; they could've easily given up then. I think the team's morale broke after the first UNC score in the third. Which is understandable.

And to add to that, recruiting is no better.

I'm underwhelmed with recruiting too, but as I've I said many times on here, I'm really looking to see how we handle the transfer portal.

Not only that, but Pry just looks so.... Clueless. You can tell he is really learning on the job. Which is understandable, but worries me too.

I disagree. When I hear him talk, he is able to quickly and succinctly describe the problems. I think the challenge right now is that there are fires everywhere. Hopefully he can clean things up a bit.

Justin Fuente is not the reason we're THIS bad. That is such a pathetic excuse. There are dozens of teams doing more with less than what we've got to work with.

His roster management was straight trash. 12 RBs on the roster?? That's almost 15% of our scholarships. Beyond that, there's one 4-star on offense (King). Players like Hooker, Nester, and Hudson were run off.

That said, the reason we are THIS bad is because we are completely changing (offensive) schemes.

I thought we'd be about 6-6, but this is a lot worse than I thought we'd look.

Yea, defense is exactly what I expected - Flashes of brilliance, inconsistent, easily tired (lack of depth). The offense is worse than I thought. I was expecting 4-6 wins. Now I'm expecting 2-4 wins.

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After the spring game I said that at least one corner was on an island almost every play. We don't have those guys to do that right now. But when the defense has those flashes, it's gorgeous.

Also, can anyone articulate why the hit on Gosnell was NOT targeting? Looked plain as day on the one replay I saw.

I have no clarity for you, just support. I've seen a number of plays that looked textbook this season that have been waived, even to the guest rules expert's surprise. So yeah I can't get a handle on that either.

I'm still figuring this out.

It was explained in the game thread, but the defender did not lead with the crown of the helmet, and although it was excessive contact to the head/neck area, Gosnell was considered a runner at that point, and not defenseless.

After getting through Ian with only minor power outages we made it down to Disney and have had a great two days celebrating our youngest 6th birthday. I'm just taking this season as is with no stress other than penalties. Other than those I'm letting everything play out. I went too hard on the last coaches first year results. Not making that mistake again. Good or bad .

Wet stuff on the red stuff.

Join us in the Key Players Club

Glad they (and hopefully you) enjoyed themselves.

Not happy, but mentally prepared.
I enjoyed uLouis losing and Wake letting the air out of fsu's 'we bak' balloon a little. Go ncsu.

Watched a third of the game, then went to Lewis' barbecue and ate brisket.

So I'm good.

People, its IMHO very unrealistic to expect much this year. I support the new staff, and certainly the Hokies giving what they got on the field.

I think this is an indictment of poor recruiting, roster management and judgement to hold onto the last LAST STAFF so long.

We'll be back. Enjoy the ride (try).

It's definitely a talent issue and not a Pry issue. The drops, the no-vision running into the back of your 315 pound OL, the inability to locate the open receiver, none of that is on Pry. This is gonna take some time to fix however it's gonna be frustrating as hell to watch. Just gotta make sure we're stocked up on plenty of Wild Turkey 101 to get through it.

uva - the taint of the ACC

I agree with Joe's tweet 1000%. This is going to be a rough year. Especially for ~80% of us here who weren't around pre-beamer and don't know what a bad season feels like.

I'm dumbfounded by the calls for Pry or Bowen to be fired. It was (and still is) fair to be skeptical of Pry hiring a first-time OC as a first-time HC with a defensive background. But no matter who is on staff, they will need time to get their guys in.

I'm resigned to this season. But I'm okay with that. I'll still watch every game, still donate to HC, etc. I'm simultaneously excited with for the direction the program is headed, but also pretty confident that we haven't yet reached rock bottom.

All that said, I'm more interested in the upcoming offseason than the current season. If finish with a top 50 class and no impact transfers, I will be a bit concerned. I'm looking for at least 25 new scholarship players on the roster next year (Ideally more).

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I don't want anyone fired. I am fine with rebuilding. I just want some evidence that this program is heading somewhere positive. I think I see that overall, but the offense is one place where I just don't see it yet.

Check back at the end of the season or likely sometime next season. I'm not being snarky either. Realistically you aren't going to see much if anything in year 1 ,especially on field

Some times it's tough to see, many people were down on Farley his freshman year, but about midyear he started to make some low key plays and then teams so throwing to him cause he blanketed the reciever. His run support still wasn't great, but he made huge strides in pass coverage that was really subtle.

I can appreciate this sentiment, but I don't think there's anyone on this team as talented as he was - with a ceiling as high as the one he had (he was only a 3* recruit, but everyone knew he was grossly underrated). The guys struggling, particularly on the defensive side, struggle because they simply aren't P5 football players. French pointed this out in his post-WVU film review.

Is coronavirus over yet?

Oh I meant that some times development and advancement are tough to see, not that we have guys that are going to be like Farley.

The benefits of being on the job, near the southern border, without reliable Verizon connectivity:

I was not subjected to watching or listening to this live

VT '10--US Citizen; (804) Virginian By Birth; (210) Texan By the Grace of God.

Rick Monday... You Made a Great Play...

I also root for: The Keydets, TexAggies, NY Giants, NY Rangers, and Braves.

Imagine this is one of the old NCAA football video games and you have picked VT. The roster you get has a very small handful of players rated in the low 80s. The best one is a kicker so positionally it's even less. Everyone else is 70, 60s, and lower. Now try winning games on the highest difficulty. That's where we are as a program. We can compete with teams of similar talent (notice I said compete not guaranteed win) but any school with talent will be very difficult. Even if their team is a roster of 80s and 70s it's still better than what we currently have

My football experiences have become different over the years. There was a time where a tough loss would ruin my whole weekend and even my week. Every day during the week was just looking forward to the game on Saturday. Now I watch the games still but its less an integral part of my life. I still watch every game to the final whistle, but it doesnt ruin my day anymore. I move on and kinda forget about VT football unless I hop on tkp. It's a weird place to be.

Danny is always open

This. I relate to this on a deep level now.

โ€œAlso, a microwave has never danced it's ass off to Jackie Wilson.โ€ - AssPocketFullOWhiskey

VT Football Zen.

It's a wonderful state of enlightenment.

Think about this. Had they not gone for it in the redzone on 4th and 7 and there would be no TD's against the 126th ranked defense. My liver is prepared for a 2 win season. Buckle up and drink.

Tyrod did it Mikey, Tyrod did it!!

and barely got the conversion!

"Take care of the little things and the big things will come."

I'm glad I went to Saturday evening mass and didn't watch the rest of the game after halftime, aren't I?

Recovering scientist working in business consulting

I hate losing as much as everyone, especially to teams we have managed to beat in seemingly similar long odds.

I was hoping, like everyone else, that the new staff would find some bottled lightning in a back storeroom but it looks like we'll have to do it the blue collar way - with long-term effort, determination, and belief. If we as a fanbase want to claim the lunch pail as the symbol of our program, then we have to set our teeth and keep showing up every day with faith that it'll pay off in the future. It's not going to be fun for a while.

This program has wounds that bandaids couldn't heal. This year will be what it will be able we can't do anything to change it. What is in our control is our reactions. Being distraught and calling for the coaches to be left on the curb after being 2-3 and losing to UNC by 33 would have made sense in 2010, with the fanbase used to seeing 10-win seasons multiple years in a row with early Draft NFL potential at several places on the 2-deep. In 2022, with a new staff and demonstrable decreased draft potential? Let's get a grip on ourselves before launching into hysterics.

I see no reason to abandon Pry at 2-3 or even 2-10. Cure is always more painful and expensive than prevention. We missed the prevention stage, so we have little choice but to muddle through or quit. There's a VTCC adage that applies, "No one said it would be easy, just that it would be worth it."

Have you entered your PICK 6 on CBSSports yet? Click Here!

That tweet is about where I'm at too.

No matter how prepared I thought I was, I'm still having a way worse time.

21st century QBs Undefeated vs UVA:
MV7, MV5, LT3, Braxton Burmeister, Ryan Willis, Josh Jackson, Jerod Evans, Michael Brewer, Tyrod Taylor, Sean Glennon, and Grant Noel. That's right, UVA. You couldn't beat Grant Noel.

Stolen from a Bitter tweet

Pry on what he'd say to the frustrated Hokies fan base right now:

"This isn't going to be an easy process. It's not going to be an overnight process. It's going to take time. We're going to do it the right way. ... We've got to keep working on our culture."

He also said recruiting needed to be better, practice habits needed to be better. Very refreshing from Fu's constant "it's not my fault they can't execute" bs.

He also said to KEEP SUPPORTING, the kids need it more than ever.

All you wanting heads to roll (Sons of Saturday esque) can kiss my orange and maroon tinted ass. You're either a Hokie through and through or you aren't.


He also said recruiting needed to be better, practice habits needed to be better. Very refreshing from Fu's constant "it's not my fault they can't execute" bs.

This is the biggest breath of fresh air in the program for the fans. A HC that can show accountability.

Good message. Unfortunately, there's a whole hell of a lot of stupidity in the replies to this tweet.

This is my school
This is home

See what I said above. The loudest are probably the ones we don't need to hear from. That said, everyone is entitled to an opinion. Some people are just jerks about putting it out there.

So this is a thing in politics and sports and other places as well, but I've been studying and doing work in housing and zoning recently and it is widely written about there. When a new building is proposed or zoning is being changed to allow higher densities (upzoning), the people speaking against it are a small, loud, and demographically homogeneous group. Pro-housing policies are generally more popular than the people speaking out against them would make you believe. They're just louder and angrier.

TLDR the people calling for heads to roll are likely not representative of the fanbase as a whole and should be ignored

Outside it's night time, but inside it's LeDay

It goes for all of the twittershpere but the sooner we stop paying so much attention to the angry social media mobs the better we will all be.

The vt spaces calling for heads to roll are showing their true colors. It's going to be a long season if you can't take it go support Alabama or Georgia

Directions from Blacksburg to whoville, go north till you smell it then go east until you step in it

I say this every year when we are doing W-L predictions: So many people are comfortable predicting 4-6 wins, but it's always more painful than you expect when you're living through it in real time. The ups and downs and in-game bad moments always hurt more than you expect.

I cut this one off when it got bad. I'm not going to put myself through an angering/upsetting situation when I can just turn it off and focus on enjoying my day. We know it's going to be a process to get back to where we want to be.

I'm trending in this direction myself. I will absolutely support the team and the players. I know they are doing the best they can and I know the coaches are doing the best they can with what they inherited, but.... Man

This year is turning to be so bad that I'm not sure I'm going to invest myself in it going forward. I don't have much free time every week and I'm not really looking forward to watching us get smacked by 20-30 points against every middling team on the schedule. There's just no fun or enjoyment in that, and sports fandom should be enjoyable.

I'm not apathetic about the team, I genuinely care, but I am not going to sit through 3 hours of torture every week just to prove to myself that I'm a fan.

This is my school
This is home

This highlights the conundrum. Pry has brought excitement, so I want to watch. Then I watch. Then I cry. Now I don't want to watch.

After yesterday's game I was thinking VT football should come with a warning label: Caution: Watching current VT football games may feel like a punch in the gut and bring back memories of groups of people being bullied. Or something to that effect.
The root problem is we keep looking for any signs of hope and during the games we are seeing none. Give us drowning fans something to cling to instead of just treading heavy seas.

The LewDew, Professional Golf Bum

I didn't watch, and boy that box score is hard to look at. And normally, I'd be upset.

But I'm not on Sanibel, Captiva, or Matlacha. And my family and I are not one of the bodies they pulled from a previously submerged vehicle or out of the bay. Our house, even though it still has no power, is in one piece.

Losing to UNCheat sucks, and watching my beloved Hokies struggle like this is rough. But man, I just can't get discouraged right now to be honest.

Warning- Filter lost.

"Look at this... This is just spectacular.... These people are losing their minds"

Glad things came through intact, will be better when you have power back, but no damage is a big thing after a blow like that.

I'm hopeful that we hired a good to great strength and conditioning coach and this will start paying off materially in Y3. We need to rebuild the culture from the weight room out. It's our best chance at getting depth from our subpar recruiting.

I wouldn't mind seeing us try Ferrell at qb and see if scheming for a running qb can mask some problems on the offensive line.

I was glad we put in Wright for Gallo. Gallos blocking is so soft he doesn't deserve to be on the field.

We need more guys with attitude. I'm impressed with Stroman. He seems to have that dog in him. We need more guys with swagger.

If anyone follows Coach 30 on social media I feel like I'm watching our games with his commentary in my head. Lot of Charles and Davis out there.

Women's soccer took down #3 UNC just now. Payback๐Ÿ˜Ž

I must have read a thousand faces
I must have robbed them of their cause
Sickened thirst, Sickened thirst
Keeps it together
Soft white glow in the cranium
A bullseye made sedated

Not exactly apples-to-apples, but I'll take it! Go Hokies!

Ngl I know alot of people ain't soccer fans but the ladies are fun to watch this season. They got 9 wins (2 over top 25 teams) and are 3 and 1 in the acc so far

I must have read a thousand faces
I must have robbed them of their cause
Sickened thirst, Sickened thirst
Keeps it together
Soft white glow in the cranium
A bullseye made sedated

In just a few years I've gone from planning out the meal and cocktails the week before the game and inviting over my friends and family to watch to now watching the game alone later in the week on my DVR where I'm lucky to make it through the first quarter before speeding through on various levels of fast forward.

I just want a functioning offense. Is that so much to ask? It's been so.long.

We just need 4 more years...

Face it CFB was a diamond in the rough and was able to make VT football a consistent contender after lots of struggles.

VT football is back to the reality of 5-6 win seasons just like the other have nots

Gobble Gobble!

Think of it this way... there are about 20 Sr's and r-Sr's in the rotation right now.
Of the handful that could come back-- however, why would they if we continue on (this) trend?

Now think of '22 as year (n)one.
'23 as year-zero.
'24 as year no.1.

Meaning... this could get worse gents. Harsh as that may feel.

Ergo, therefore, to Whit: ...do try to enjoy anything you '22, can.


God Bless!

Kelsey Riggs is a winner, great field reporter, deserves to be on bigger games, clear, concise articulation, and she doesn't trail off at the end of her segments.

TKPhi Damn Proud
BSME 2009

We have basically the same squad that lost to Maryland 54-10 in the Pinstripe Bowl. We added ~6 G5 level transfers to that squad. The talent is so much lower than it should be. I don't think Fuente would've been doing much better on offense with players he recruited. And the defense would be worse.
It's going to take 3 years to rebuild the talent on this team and reshape the offense to fit this scheme. It's going to hurt, but we need to give this staff a chance to rebuild. We shouldn't be like FSU or Tennessee fans running off a coach before they even have a chance.

"That move was slicker than a peeled onion in a bowl of snot." -Mike Burnop

This guy gets it.

TKPhi Damn Proud
BSME 2009

From what I can tell the FSU fans were probably right in most cases. /s

But absolutely
(Edit to add the lil s cuz I forgot you can't hear my tone)

I'm still figuring this out.

It's not the same freaking squad. We had 4 guys drafted (2 on our OLine), another 6 who had declared and didn't come back (you know they were starters, bench players don't declare, including Hoffman for our third starter we lost on the OLine). We also lost 13 guys to the portal, with Tayvion Robinson being the biggest loss. I'm not sure anyone would disagree with me that I'm pretty sure we don't have 4 draftworthy players on the roster right now, let alone 6 others who think they have a shot at free agency (Tre Turner being a big name in that category).

We're definitely worse, and not just a little bit, especially on the offensive line. Losing that much talent on a line hurts bad.

All of the transfer attrition had already happened by the bowl game. But sure, 4 players who went to the NFL (or at least are trying to stick on practice squad rosters) played in the bowl game.
My point is that we already had a glimpse of how bad this was going to be before this season and this staff deserves patience and a chance to rebuild the roster.

"That move was slicker than a peeled onion in a bowl of snot." -Mike Burnop

My bad dude - I was misreading the message of your post. Too many responses to people complaining and I'm tired and was thinking you were saying we should be better. I didn't read your whole post and thought I was seeing the "we have the same roster that went 6-6 last year, so we should be equivalent or better" argument again. Ugh, I should stop replying tonight - I'm too tired at this point ๐Ÿ˜‚

You're absolutely right with your assessment. We're not talented. Hopefully the recruiting will pick up a lot. Good playing this year would probably help, so the talent level isn't doing us any favors in that regard either. We're in for a rough ride.

No worries it's been a long day for all of us!

"That move was slicker than a peeled onion in a bowl of snot." -Mike Burnop

This is really disappointing. I didn't expect this but I did expect terrible outcomes in ACC games (losses). I reserve pitchforks for next year if we still look like this. The talent level won't win many more games next year but 2nd year we should at least be competitive.

Pry hit the nail on the head day 1, paraphrasing:

These kids need to hate losing. They can't accept losing.

That's been our culture for the last 3 seasons. Most of this season's team are those players. Especially our offense. We fold horribly. And when our defense sees our offense can't do anything, they fold along with them. Nick Saban couldn't get a win with this squad.

The coaches have a ton of work on their hands, and there will be some tough, sad, conversations to close out the year. But I'm positive about the new recruiting class, I'm positive about the community engagement, and the overall atmosphere around the football department. It'll be a few years, but Pry can mold these younger players to stop losing. That's where it'll start.

TKPhi Damn Proud
BSME 2009

Nick Saban couldn't get a win with this squad.

Nick Saban would need a wheelchair to get around after sticking his foot in our guys' John Brown hind parts so frequently.


Yep. Not only do they need to learn how to win, they need to unlearn how to lose.

21st century QBs Undefeated vs UVA:
MV7, MV5, LT3, Braxton Burmeister, Ryan Willis, Josh Jackson, Jerod Evans, Michael Brewer, Tyrod Taylor, Sean Glennon, and Grant Noel. That's right, UVA. You couldn't beat Grant Noel.

unlearn how to lose and learn how to hate losing

Never Forget #1 Overall Seed UVA 54, #64 UMBC 74

learn how to love winning, and hate losing more.

21st century QBs Undefeated vs UVA:
MV7, MV5, LT3, Braxton Burmeister, Ryan Willis, Josh Jackson, Jerod Evans, Michael Brewer, Tyrod Taylor, Sean Glennon, and Grant Noel. That's right, UVA. You couldn't beat Grant Noel.

Is Chad Powers available?

Man, I'm just glad Gosnell is ok as far as we have heard. I literally thought he was dead or paralyzed.

We got thumped and definitely have problems, but at least they're fixable things. Our receivers need to catch better, plain and simple. Wells needs to not tunnel-vision like he does. Honestly I'm not sure what our defense needs to do, but I imagine our coaches have some ideas.

Also I know UNC's defense in the rest of their games has been the human epitome of swiss cheese, but dare I say I saw some run-blocking plays tonight that actually gained decent yardage. Hopefully that train can keep picking up some speed!

Regarding the run blocking - I was very encouraged by the RPO to Smith on the first drive. Effective running earlier in the drive opened up an explosive passing play. I'm extrapolating a lot, but I think that was a sign of what the offense could be once we have the execution and talent.

"That move was slicker than a peeled onion in a bowl of snot." -Mike Burnop

I'm extrapolating a lot, but I think that was a sign of what the offense could be once we have the execution and talent

Twitter me

People really should go back and review this nightmare. You will completely lose your faith in Whit. It's not just like Whit was mistaken. What was said here was negligent and irresponsible.

Hokie Club member since 2017

Lol half the people here think Sands was just off screen with a gun pointed at him.

Free Hugh

Edit: my comment was too combative in tone and I've removed it but will think about how to rephrase it to ask in good faith

"Why gobble gobble chumps asks such good questions, I will never know." - TheFifthFuller

Free Hugh

This is my school
This is home

Pretty sure I went negative plaid last time I made a comeback joke

Free Hugh

You must have forgotten the "/s"

The outtakes for this scene are phenomenal. DO NOT YOUTUBE THIS AT WORK!

Outside it's night time, but inside it's LeDay

All time favorite. The Chris Pratt outtakes over the course of the entire show are hilarious.

This is my school
This is home

I would criticize Whit for this, but I'm probably not at the right donor level for him to even listen.....

Seriously though: I think Whits helped out VT athletics in some ways, but the football program is a huge 'L' on his resume right now. And now, in a super vulnerable time in our programs history, we hire a HC with zero experience being a HC (not to mention rebuilding a program), along with two coordinators with zero experience at their jobs either. And boy is it showing...

Does anyone else worry that the same dude who bought all these things about the FuCorn offense after seeing it here for 5 years is the same guy who chose Brent Pry?

VT just isn't an attractive job now. Not nearly as attractive as it was in 2016. Whit went after Napier, possibly made a run at Matt Campbell, and there was enough smoke about Dave Clawson it makes me thing some conversations were had. But in the end pretty much all of Whit's targets turned him down, and Ballein, Bud, Beamer and some of the old guard were pushing for Pry due to his familiarity with the program. I think Ballein really had Whit's ear after the initial search came up empty. I like Pry, but again it's a very risky move. First time HC and largely green staff. But we probably couldn't have brought in much better given the state of the program and roster situation.

Whit allowed Fu to crater this program. Yes, Fu did the damage, but Whit should get a large share of the blame for why VT football is this bad. This roster is so horrendous that it's going to take years (I.e. 3-4 recruiting cycles at a minimum) to get the talent level up. And I unfortunately don't know if this staff will recruit at a high enough level to get it done. VT football may be a best-case 7-8 win team once this gets straightened out. IMO, the damage is almost irreparable at this point, barring an elite recruiting and coaching staff which I don't think we can attract or afford or a huge financial windfall which I don't think is coming.

So that's that.

I don't get where this narrative on all these coaches we missed on is coming from. I went and have listened to a couple Napier pressers, and man, if we were sick of coach speak with Fuente, we would have HATED having Napier here.

I can actually see in my head Whit interviewing both Pry and Napier, and any direct questions Whit asks Napier are answered vaguely with a lot of coach speak, whereas Pry gives solid answers with an actual plan. I know I don't have any actual evidence of any of that, it's just how I imagine it from all the pressers I've seen each give. So I'm not sold that Whit "missed" on Napier.

I imagine a bunch of guys went after Clawson, which is why Wake sealed him up.

I think Whit knew we had a big culture problem and needed someone who understood it, and understanding it would help recruiting to Tech. I think Pry fit a lot more check boxes than a lot of us think, and was probably closer to the number 1 choice than it sounds like some of us think.

We were after Napier and likely would have hired him until Florida came in at the last minute. We got outbid at the end of the day. We did not turn Napier down. I like Pry a lot too, but we can't kid ourselves he was the absolute top choice from the get-go. This job was a tough sell given what Fuente left behind. I wasn't super high on Napier either personally but he was one of the top guys.

Do you have some actual knowledge that we got outbid on Napier?

I didn't say Pry was the number 1 choice, just that he was likely CLOSER to number 1 than it sounds like people think. I mean, unless you're Whit's assistant given the definitive sounding statements you made on who we went after and who we missed on.

All of the insiders (even non-paywall and on Twitter) were reporting at the time that it was between VT and UF for Napier and UF just at the end of the day offered more. I think even JUGS was saying it here. He seemed to be the top guy out of the gate. Pry probably got into the conversation after that, probably some feelers to a few other guys as well. If you want first hand accounts of what happened I doubt you're going to find that.

Godfey reported it a bunch in Athlon (here's one of the many pieces on it) and talked about it on SZD. Feldman did as well. Neither of these reporters would report anything that hasn't been properly sourced.

My interpretation from the various reports: I don't think we got 'outbid' as much as we got 'big dogged' - Napier has his own version of 'The Process', and he wanted to go to a school that had the infrastructure to support it (which was why he reportedly wasn't interested in SCar or Auburn). Based on reports/twitter, it sounds like his first choice was LSU, but after they didn't come calling, he took the best available job, which was Florida. It seemed like it was between VT and TCU until UF came open.

Twitter me

Thank you for the links, I was trying to scrounge together myself. And agreed, outbid probably isn't the right word. Wasn't just about money. UF is infinitely a better sell than we were. I can't stress enough how bad the shape of this roster was and how it likely was also a big factor. This is a gut job.

I'm waiting for the tell-all book or interview down the road that explains the back story behind that press conference. Because something was clearly wrong that day.

Because something was clearly wrong that day.

Right? Because nobody calls a press conference to declare that they are retaining their mediocre coach.

On the day his buyout drops

This season I watch the Hokies every week for w reasons: (1) hope that they can win a game they shouldn't and (2) watch for player development (especially the underclassmen). I'm not seeing either at the moment and I don't have many positive feelings about the future with this roster. It was nice to see some development from Wright today, but other than that I didn't see much from the underclassmen. Who is the future?

๐Ÿฆƒ ๐Ÿฆƒ ๐Ÿฆƒ

I'm starting to think that a lot of folks just don't have any clue how much damage Fuente did.

I know it's pretty frustrating to see us suck at a level most of us haven't seen in our lifetime but we knew it was going to be bad. Joe tweeted what I think many of us feel. Something along the lines of: it's one thing to know we'll be bad going into the season but it's something else to live through it.

This sucks. It hurts. It's frustrating to watch. It's easy to be an armchair coach. It's hard to see teams like Duke playing pretty well with a first year coach. It's easy to second guess every decision that doesn't work out for us.

But we have to understand that this is going to be a slow and painful process. This rebuild was never going to happen in one season. Probably not 2 or 3 either. I think we have to accept that we probably won't ever reach the levels we want. But I do think we will get better. I think we're in the basement now but I don't think we'll be there forever.

1999 is probably never going to happen again. VT just isn't in a position to compete with the top teams. I'm not sure VT ever will be. Success for this program is going to be occasional 10 win seasons and perhaps a conference championship appearance once every 5 or 10 years. That's just our reality.

Onward and upward

It isn't quite apples-to-apples but at Duke, Elko succeeding Cutcliffe is akin to Fuente succeeding Beamer. At UVA, I think Tony Elliot is working with Mendenhall's best QB in Armstrong (albeit a down year with no OL support), and they also always had good RB's and WR's to pair with a good defense under Bronco. Miami always has top-tier talent no matter the coach and Cristobal is STILL managing to underperform just like his predecessors.

Fuente has taught me to reserve judgment on first season successes - let's see if they can sustain it first with their own recruits.

That Duke roster is worse than ours and they're winning. Elko has been more successful than Pry in the first 10 months of his tenure, full stop.

I'm not sure this is the case. Duke certainly, from a historical perspective, hasn't recruited at the same level as us. But remember, not only did Fuente not recruited well for a couple of cycles, most of his higher rated recruits are no longer on the team or simply do not contribute. Pry legitimately has a G-5 roster.

Is coronavirus over yet?

According to most recent 247 team talent composite rankings, Duke actually is worse than us ๐Ÿ˜ณ

"Why gobble gobble chumps asks such good questions, I will never know." - TheFifthFuller

My beef with what Fuente kept isn't purely total stars. They didn't fill out a roster. There was never any balance to what they brought in. Even his best recruiting classes weren't balanced. What we were left with is worse.

Also talent composite is entirely scheme agnostic --its just based on recruiting rankings

"Why gobble gobble chumps asks such good questions, I will never know." - TheFifthFuller

Good catch. Just took a quick peak (I'd have to do a little digging on the age of each team as that may contribute a little).

Two interesting notes about the 2022 ACC Team Composite Rankings

1. MiamiIsBak is #2

2. Wake Forest is dead last

The lesson? Star power certainly matters in relation to being elite, however good coaching and excellent player development can overcome a ton of talent deficiencies.

Is coronavirus over yet?

Whit hired Fuente, extended Fuente, and Pry doesn't look like the guy. Whit has got to go.

Slow your roll dude. There isn't anyone who thought going in that the Fuente hire was bad. I think most outlets that graded gave the hire an A. Then Fuente went and won ten games and took us to the ACCCG in year 1. Extending him seemed like the smart thing, especially if other programs came knocking. Nobody knows if a hire will be good going in, otherwise there wouldn't ever be bad hires. I guess some are a little obviously not good than others, but still.

Pry doesn't look like the guy? When we did our expectations after last year, before a game had been played, a lot of people thought this was a 2 win season with the roster we have. Guess what, we've already won 2. If we win one more, that will exceed some expectations (and the smarter ones). Thinking this team could win 8 games before we ever played one was delusional and anyone still holding us to that or even 6 wins isn't being realistic with where we are as a program.

Pry needs at LEAST two years to un-fuck this program. I don't think there's any coach in the country that would have us much, if any, better than where we are right now.

If you want to say Whit should have pulled the plug on Fuente earlier, I'll buy that. But I think the COVID year screwed us on that. I think if people get really honest with themselves and are objective, it was really damn hard to make an accurate decision on the play that year. We had to play freaking walk-ons because of all the people we had out. I firmly believe if COVID hadn't come along, we would have had a year where it was very obvious that Fuente should have gone and Whit most likely would have made the decision then.

I mean, there's lots of schools that have crap tons more cash than we do that hire coaches that don't turn out. It happens, more than you realize, we just lucked into having a really good coach that stayed for a really long time.

For the rest of this season, I want to see 3 things:

  1. Can our offensive line improve? We are dog shit here.
  2. Can our defensive line get any pressure on the QB this year? So far the answer is a resounding no.
  3. Can we develop anybody at WR? This is the most untalented I can ever remember at the position. Right now it doesn't look like we have a single P5 player at WR.


Twitter me

#2 is gonna be tough. Our secondary is a major liability and we aren't going to dare go single coverage until the DBs start defending consistently when they have help.

Lol some of the hot takes on here. I'm just gonna go ahead and say we all thought Fuente was hot shit year 1 and 2... it takes time for coaches to put their stamps on programs. want another good example? Sparty might be fucked in the Mel tucker situation. Knee jerk reactions are what got us here. Chill the fuck out and if you can't handle it go watch a movie, take a walk, or play some fucking video games lol

Taylor, looking desperately throws it deep..HAS A MAN OPEN DANNY COALE WITH A CATCH ALL THE WAY DOWN TO THE FIVE!!!!....hes still open

I'll feel so much better next season when I rebuild the program on my own when EA's NCAA comes out ๐Ÿ˜‚

Devyn Ford is transferring from PSU. Do we need an 11th RB?

Not even that he's transferring -- just leaving the team to focus on academics and get his degree

"Why gobble gobble chumps asks such good questions, I will never know." - TheFifthFuller

Heard about it yesterday, this is what a PSU guy told me. Grain of salt

save his redshirt, get degree, then play 2 years somewhere

I'd take him in a heartbeat. Wasn't Pry his primary recruiter at PSU?

Even with the LSD possession charge that got expunged because of a pre-trial intervention?

"Why gobble gobble chumps asks such good questions, I will never know." - TheFifthFuller

I mean, that's pretty far out (pun intended), but I can think of way worse things. I guess some people just want to expand their mind, man.

Does anyone do a breakdown of top ten VA recruits and what they end up doing wherever they end up?

Wet stuff on the red stuff.

Join us in the Key Players Club

I can do that this December for ESD.

How far back do we want to look?

Never Forget #1 Overall Seed UVA 54, #64 UMBC 74

2016 transitional class as we went from Beams to Fu

"Why gobble gobble chumps asks such good questions, I will never know." - TheFifthFuller

Just saw it's late this year. December 21

Never Forget #1 Overall Seed UVA 54, #64 UMBC 74

Always found it interesting how much we all melted down over slade and then mostly Ford going to PSU but after what little they did there maybe recruiting is just a big guessing game after all?

Directions from Blacksburg to whoville, go north till you smell it then go east until you step in it

Yeah but Ford was really good in high school. I'm not sure what happened but I'm confident he could have been used effectively somewhere

Yeah but Fuente was really good in G5. I'm not sure what happened but I'm confident he could have been used effectively somewhere. /s

I seldom speak to loluva grads, but when I do, I tell them I want large fries.

Okay it's a funny joke but you know it's not the same thing right. Ford's film was as good as any of the top prospects that went on to be NFL players

He's probably a great OC. If I could trade him now for Bowen I would in a heartbeat

Free Hugh

three penalties for 22 yards -- improvement! Still two false starts which isn't good, but no illegal shifts, no delays of game. One false start was dzansi and one was jordan -- need the vets to be better in that area. The other was a special teams unsportsmanlike.

Saw some play action -- for the first time all year i think!

Saw some involvement of Daequan Wright. He is a 4* true freshman out of georgia who delayed his signing to late signing day, Pry kept him in the fold and now we're seeing him on the field.

Lofton needs to work on the hands.

Brion murray got abused out there. He played decently for JHam but more man coverage isn't suiting him.

All in all, viewing this game like I am all of them this year -- less about the WL, more about higher level incremental progress and the program as a whole.

"Why gobble gobble chumps asks such good questions, I will never know." - TheFifthFuller

Now that we've seen what Brown can do as a backup, I'm ready to elevate Devin Ferrell to backup. Let's get as many underclassmen playing time as reasonably possible. Rip the band-aid off (as if it isn't already) and see what we have in depth.

Things I'm already tired of: calling for firings, blaming Whit, not realizing the magnitude of this rebuild.

VB born, class of '14

At the same time, if true freshmen get game time and show they aren't ready, let's not burn redshirts unnecessarily. Today's redshirts are depth for the program down the road

"Why gobble gobble chumps asks such good questions, I will never know." - TheFifthFuller

Definitely agree, probably should have articulated "as reasonably possible" better.

VB born, class of '14

I believe the NCAA instituted a rule the last couple of years that players could play a certain amount of games without burning the redshirt.

I wonder if Pry has ever addressed that in a press conference?

If we don't see any of the coaches/players taking advantage of the rule, it may be more indicative of what we have waiting in the wings. I imagine we have a healthy amount of players that are so far away from being ready/capable to contribute out there that it just isn't worth it.

Folks are always clamoring for the "next guy up." What if the next guy is (gulp) worse?!

Yes four games -- healthy space to evaluate at game speed and make a realistic decision without burning the shirt.

As far as your last point, i think jason brown's cameo should put a lot of that specific chatter to bed

"Why gobble gobble chumps asks such good questions, I will never know." - TheFifthFuller

Here are some positives I'm taking away:

1. Pry. The dude is very honest in his assessment of things, but not in a way that creates negativity. He's the right guy for what we need right now. I hope he's the right guy for the long haul. I really do think he'll at least right the ship and lay a very solid foundation.

2. The defense is regularly in the right place to succeed. The scheme and the defensive calls are working as it relates to getting guys to a place where they can succeed. Unfortunately we simply don't have the talent needed to compete in the P-5 world. Both Brion Murray and Dax were completely abused last night and it wasn't because they were in the wrong place or not hustling, they simply can't keep up.

3. Culture. I don't see guys giving up and not trying. I think they simply get weary. I don't think anyone can honestly say there hasn't been a significant culture shift in the program.

I'll have to be honest... I really lost interest in the game quite early yesterday. It was on, but mostly in the background. I'm still going to donate the little bit of money I've been donating. I'm still going to tune in. And we are still going to make it to two games. I think the program needs that from all of us right now. The only way to see things improve is to invest.

Is coronavirus over yet?

I've been a Tech fan for over 60 years and this may the worst one based on what I've seen so far. I'm not sure this team can win another game.

Here's the frustrating part:

While our fan base whines about how bad Fuente was and how it's going to take three years to even see results, Mike Elko took over an even worse situation and is already 4-1 and looking like he's got an impressive team.

To understand this fully: Elko took over a program that has won 5 games in the last two years combined, started with even less team talent than we have, less money to spend on the staff, and somehow looks light-years ahead of us.

So while some of you whine about how we aren't going to be able to judge Pry or see results until year 3/4, Elko is busy winning in year one in our division. Fun.

This comes across like you whining about everyone else. There are more people in this thread whining about Pry than there are about Fuente.

Do you think it's as simple as 'we should have hired elko'? Do you think Duke will be happy if Elko has them at 5-7 wins in a typical year and a ceiling of 8? Do you think we'd be happy with the same at VT?

5 games is too soon to cast absolute judgments because this year was never going to be about winning games for the Hokies.

"Why gobble gobble chumps asks such good questions, I will never know." - TheFifthFuller

I could care less what people think; I'm just pointing out the lunacy of blaming a previous coach for us looking THIS bad. The five performances we've had so far are unacceptable.

I'm not casting absolute judgements on anyone, I'm just saying that it's very reasonable to be very underwhelmed with the staff so far.

Edit: And to be honest, here's what worries me the most more than anything the players are doing: We need an 'alpha' to turn this thing around, and Pry doesn't strike me as one so far. He doesn't seem to be gathering and motivating the players in-game. He's not in the refs faces after bad calls. He has a poor grasp on clock and game management. To be honest, on the sideline, he looks like just another assistant.

He's not in the refs faces after bad calls.

So you want Narduzzi? No thanks.


Haha what?? I never said anything about Narduzzi.

I want a coach that lets the officials hear it when they're making terrible calls that go against it. I want the players to know they have a coach that is always to stick up for them and that they don't have to worry about it themselves.

I'm sure other football players can vouch for the fact that when the coaches are on the sidelines engaged in the game, calling out bad officiating, etc., that goes a long way in building good football culture.

Oh, and this is a side point, but I find it funny when people act like Narduzzi represents everything you don't want in a football coach. Yeah, he can come across as an asshole. But he also just won a championship at Pitt, gets and develops NFL players, and wins a lot more often than lose. I'd rather have that than a nice guy who is a push-over (NOT saying that's what Pry is).

I want a coach that lets the officials hear it when they're making terrible calls

There's a big difference between advocating for your team and "getting in the refs faces" after a bad call. Narduzzi gets in their faces literally every other play and it rarely accomplishes anything other than him looking like a clown.

I want the players to know they have a coach that is always to stick up for them

Have you seen a player say this about Pry? What's there to indicate this is the case?

I'm sure other football players can vouch for the fact that when the coaches are on the sidelines engaged in the game, calling out bad officiating, etc., that goes a long way in building good football culture.

There's a lot more than just yelling on the sidelines that builds a good football culture. Not saying you don't know this, but to act like Pry isn't building a good culture simply because he doesn't act like you want him to is incorrect.


Sure there is more to building a good football culture than yelling on the sidelines. All I'm saying is that when I look at the best football programs/cultures around college football right now, most, if not all, have ONE thing in common: They've got a head coach who is an ALPHA. Constantly rallying the troops, always in the huddle motivating guys, ripping the officials after bad calls, pulling other coaches and players to the side, etc etc etc.

I'm not saying that Pry isn't going to be that guy. I'm just saying that so far, he looks like just another coach on the sideline to me. You wouldn't really know he is the head coach unless someone told you.

Did you ever see Frank Beamer do this?

A thousand times yes!! Almost every single game in fact. This was one of the qualities I loved the most about Coach Beamer- he was a great motivator. Constantly rallying the troops, motivating guys on the sideline, etc. And then in terms of letting the referees hear it, he did his fair share of that too lol (and he actually mentions this briefly in his book if I remember correctly).

Uh, my recollection is that Foster was the one with all the fire. I remember him getting worked up. I don't remember that at all with Beamer. And I got there in 92. Maybe he got a little worked up, but not by comparison to Foster. I remember CFB yanking his headset off and kicking something in frustration, but we seem to remember Beamer much differently.

I saw Beamer mad a few times. He tended not to lose his composure, but it did happen.

Bud, on the other hand, was always cranked to 11.

I'm not sure being cranked to 11 is a necessary component for good coaching, but it works for some of them. You see it more often in coordinators. Foster and Venables comes to mind. Will be interesting to see if that changes for Venables now that he's head whistle.

I remember Beamer back in the day getting hot and smacking I believe Ernest Wilford in the helmet for not being focused or something. It was rare but he could definitely get mad if something was bad enough.

That it was rare made it mean something when he got to the boiling point.

Beamer is absolutely a competitor.

Yeah, I think Saban's constant tantrums are ridiculous and just a schtick for him at this point. Him going off on a coach or player when they are obviously blowing a team out and being rude to the sideline reporters is just unnecessary. I think he thinks if he's the bigger distraction it keeps the focus on him and off the team or something.

I'm not sure being cranked to 11 is a necessary component for good coaching, but it works for some of them. You see it more often in coordinators. Foster and Venables comes to mind. Will be interesting to see if that changes for Venables now that he's head whistle.

It definitely didn't translate from Coordinator to HC for Bo Pelini.

This is missing the forest for the trees. Our problem is not a ref problem right now, it's a talent and fundamentals problem. Humans have limited resources and I think it's smart right now that Pry is involved in getting this team better. There have only been a handful of plays this year that were bad or borderline and those instances offer a coaching moment for our guys to hopefully improve instead of yelling at a ref. There is a priority list and yelling at refs for close calls probably doesn't show up until we have a competitive football team that plays sound.

Also none of us are in the huddle, practice, or sidelines and many leaders lead in many different ways. I am for whichever one puts better talent on the field and more points on the board.

I have never seen yelling be a part of building good culture anywhere.

Nick Saban would like a word

I would much rather have someone who is cool, calm, collected, and methodical than some over emotional "alpha" who players blow off after the 15th pump up speech.

Team don't win games because they got a better pump up speech. They win games because of (a) talent and (b) discipline in the weeks, months, and years prior to taking the field.

Is Pry the guy for the future of this program? Way too early to tell either way.

Twitter me

I never said anything about being over-emotional haha, don't know here that came from. And I don't think being calm, cool, and collected and being an alpha are mutually exclusive. Quite the opposite actually.

Agree that it's way too early to make a judgement either way though.

Yep, this exactly. Player development is clearly an issue right now. The entire offensive line played better last year. Jaden Blue has regressed from his Temple form. Lofton and Jones haven't improved. It's early but we have to see something.

Elko and Duke are doing a great job of scheming to the group they have and being a disciplined football team that doesn't beat themselves.

The entire OL has regressed because they were recruited specifically to play for a scheme that didn't work here that we aren't playing any more and won't be playing in 2022, 2023, or 2024

"Why gobble gobble chumps asks such good questions, I will never know." - TheFifthFuller

But at the same time you have to play this season with the cards you're dealt. And as French has pointed out though most of the offensive linemen in the next class don't appear to fit Rudolph's scheme either

I do agree here. I think Pry is playing the long game, as in he wants to establish a certain offensive identity for the long haul and not cater to what suits this particular roster better. On one hand I get that, but on the other, look at what Mike Elko is doing at Duke. I can't buy that Duke's roster is significantly more talented than VT's. Remember we blew this Duke team out last year. Elko's team to date (caveat not a huge sample size yet, long way to go, but just on what we've seen so far) appears much better coached overall, and the offense is tailored better to the personnel they have. Time will tell which strategy was the right one for the culture each program is trying to build.

I think a big difference between VT and Duke is that Duke really has no expectations. So they're just going out there and balling out. There's no pressure on them. The two teams are starting from different places. Elko just needs to focus on getting his team ready to play each week. Pry's rebuilding the program.

Let's look at Elko's 4 wins.
1. Temple: A team ranked 113th in FPI efficiency, with the #129 ranked offense
2. Northwestern: Dead last in the BigTen, 116th in FPI efficiency, #114 on offense, #88 on defense
3. NC A&T: FCS program, still gave up 20 points
4. UVA: #91 overall, #99 on offense, #108 on special teams.

Let's look at who we've played
1. ODU: #98 overall, #107 on offense, #79 on defense
2. BC: #109 overall, #102 on offense, #90 on defense
3. Wofford: FCS
4. WVU: #54 overall, #26 on offense
5. UNC: #52 overall, #7 on offense

So far, Elko's best win is roughly equivalent to our worst loss.

Never Forget #1 Overall Seed UVA 54, #64 UMBC 74

Look, we can talk about the statistics of the teams we've faced all we want. But in reality, Duke had lost 13 ACC games in a row, Elko takes over and they obliterate UVA in their first ACC game. Duke isn't talented, but they look disciplined and well-prepared. They're blowing out teams they should.

We look lost..... against Wofford and ODU.

Elko at least inherited a balanced roster. We had 12 RB and how many WR? At least 25% of our total scholarships were in those 2 categories.

I didn't watch a minute of the game.

I took my daughter to the library, to a coffee shop.

I cooked my family dinner (sausage and peppers).

I worked out.

I know its a bit shit, but I can't devote time to getting spun up about these games during the rebuild.

We have a long way to go.

This sucks.

I feel bad for Dax.

Hopefully in 2025 we're at least competitive.

I'll get crucified for this but everyone needs to seriously get prepared for the death of this program. Sure not window shuttering death, but perpetual .500 or less seasons. Pry is busy chasing his tail trying to teach guys how to tackle while the rest of CFB is straight up lapping us. It's over, everyone saying hit the portal hard no P5 contributor is going to want to come to a 3 win program.

I'm looking forward to free weekends in the fall

Yeah not sure why I'm getting DV as nothing is against CG's but whatever. Recruits may not care as much about winning but we're not nearly as competitive NIL-wise to grab the top 5 out of the portal so unless Pry & Co has relationships with a bunch of great players hitting the portal were just gonna keep cramming this roster full of .85-.88s and that ain't gonna win a lot of games fellas. All I'm saying is hope for the best but be very prepared for the worst

Recruits don't care about winning how much the team has won in previous seasons. They care about relationships with coaches, NFL readiness, and getting that bag. Winning is MUCH lower on the list.

edited for clarity

Twitter me

I've seen you say this before and I'm curious how this was determined?

Here's a really good piece by Bud Elliott about it. TL;DR:

  • All top 10 classes are either (a) teams coming off a 9+ win season or (b) have a well known head coach in the first 3 years of his tenure
  • For the top 11-25, the trend is similar, but significantly weaker, with a lot of examples that buck the trend.

I would expect that having a 9+ win season win season is symptom, not a cause - meaning that coaches that can build relationships and put kids in the NFL tend to get more 9 win seasons, but they also tend to get more classes.

There's also this list from 2013 on Bleacher Report, which aligns with what I've heard on podcasts/interviews with former players and media members who cover recruiting (minus getting paid).

That said, it's tough to assign cause when there's a ton of variables in play, especially when it's something more ambiguous and not a clean data set. And obviously, every kid is different; for some it is purely a business decision. For others it is very emotional.

BUT the notion that no one wants to play for a 3 win team is ludicrous (seem Chad Morris, Scott Frost, Sark, and many others)

Twitter me

I wouldn't say recruits don't care about winning. I think there has to be momentum to sell. UNC obviously has the flashy brand to sell, but they also can sell that they are recruiting a lot of 4-5* guys and are close to being a championship team. Recruits want to play with other good recruits and that's probably the biggest factor. If you're not winning but recruiting well you'll still probably recruit well. But not winning plus not landing any blue chippers will be a hard sell to other blue chippers.

In VT's case, if you don't have a flashy brand and a staff full of recruiters, you're going to have to win some recruiting battles by showing that your staff can coach and win some games. That's going to be the biggest hurdle for this staff. The roster is so terrible that they don't have much to work with, and next year's class has some great developmental prospects to work with, but I don't know if they are going to be year one starters. If they can overhaul the roster next year and start to develop their recruits and win more games, maybe we can get more traction. But if we can't do that, I really don't know why a blue chipper would consider coming to VT over other options.

I think there has to be momentum to sell.

I don't think momentum is the right word... needs to be a vision and a plan. Chad Morris at Arkansas had a top 20 recruiting class after a 2 win season.

Our coaches need to sell recruits on:

  • VT - the campus/community
  • Their plan for the football team (how the recruit can make them better)
  • Early playing time
  • Past players they've put in the NFL

Twitter me

Chad Morris also helped lead the transformation at Clemson and has that to sell.

Free Hugh

Morris was just as successful (on offense) as Pry was at PSU/Vandy (on Defense). Pry should be able to sell past success here.

Twitter me

Recruits don't care about winning.


There's no athlete seriously in a sport that doesn't want to win. It's not the only reason you pick a team/school, but to say they don't care about winning is...odd?


They don't care about past on the field results. They care about going to a program that can win once they get there. That's why a coach has to sell a vision.

Twitter me

They don't care about past on the field results.

There's a big difference between caring about past accomplishments at a school and "recruits don't care about winning. But I see what you're saying and I agree.


We absolutely have the opportunity to save ourselves with the portal, it happens all the time these days even for bad teams.

That said I don't necessarily disagree with you. The bench was lifeless. Not having an offense definitely hurt the defense's confidence and team morale overall. We are building dangerous negative momentum that even a great staff would have trouble overcoming in the near future.

Any sort of near term save for this staff involves going 4-0 in November. At the very least do not fucking lose to Liberty, do not lose to UVA. Losing to ODU Liberty WVU UNC and UVA in one season? I can't comprehend it. Add to it the true death of our bowl streak. Ugh

We absolutely have the opportunity to save ourselves with the portal

I really hope you're correct. I'm cautiously optimistic about it... Can we get some real talent in? Or, because of our limited NIL resources, are we going to get more G5 level talent? We are certain to find out soon enough.

Is coronavirus over yet?

We are going to be competing with over 120 other D1 teams, not to mention FCS teams, mining for the relatively few program enhancing gold nuggets to be found in the portal. VT will not be the only program no longer limited in that regard. I hope I am wrong, but I do not hold very high expectations for portal success.

"I'll get crucified for this, but...."

*Gets downvoted*

"Not sure why I'm getting downvotes??"

Lol I'm just messing with you. But if you predicted you'd get 'crucified' for it, you know exactly why you got DV'd. This is a forum full of people who love VT football and are passionate about it. Coming on here and prophesying the "death of the program" is not only over-dramatic and plain silly, but also really unpopular.

Dissenting opinions not negative fake internet points, but anyways I love this school and the program. Most of my favorite childhood memories revolve around Lane and the German Club parking lot, but taking a step back and looking around the country it's so bad in Blacksburg that I don't think it can be fixed. The way the money and talent is moving we're just getting left behind. Once the ACC moves away from divisions we're looking at being maybe the 5th best ACC team on a good year, so we're not a very good program in a not very good conference that's not very good at generating revenue. So we're all waiting and asking a guy to do something that probably can't be done.

We all love VT football, otherwise we wouldn't be on a VT football forum venting our frustrations.

There's just a pretty big divide between the hopeful fans who also think every coach or admin at the school is beyond criticism and deserves X many years to show progress, and the fans who feel realistically pessimistic about the situation who don't hesitate to criticize the people at the helm, even though it's an exercise in futility.

Free Hugh

There's just a pretty big divide between the hopeful fans who also think every coach or admin at the school is beyond criticism and deserves X many years to show progress, and the fans who feel realisticallyoverly pessimistic about the situation who don't hesitate to criticize the people at the helm, even though it's an exercise in futility


but in all seriousness, you can paint yourself as the moderate voice of reason if you want to, but you're not. None of us are, TBH. We are all fanatics. By definition, we are not "moderate voices of reason". Regardless of which side of the fence you fall on. You have your opinions. I have my opinions. Countless other fans on here have their own opinions. They're not always the same and that's okay. It's important to remember, though, that nobody's opinion is necessarily better or worse, wrong-er or right-er than anyone else's. Even you. Even me.

Onward and upward

I am not trying to paint myself as moderate. I am definitely a pessimist on this issue. Where did I say that?

Free Hugh

yeah, okay, so you didn't say "HEY EVERYONE, I'M THE MODERATE VOICE OF REASON HERE!!" but by "painting yourself as the voice of reason" what I mean is the language you use and the implications you make illustrate that you fancy yourself as such.

You label one side (your obvious adversaries) as "hopeful fans who also think every coach or admin at the school is beyond criticism and deserves X many years to show progress" which is a pretty absolute and ridiculous stance for anyone to take. Then you compare them to the other side (the side to which you relate) as "feel[ing] realistically pessimistic" which is much softer language and can be construed as the more reasonable group of people.

You're essentially creating two boxes of people. One that is ridiculous and outlandish (fans who think every person is beyond criticism) and another box that is much more reasonable (people who are realistic) and you dump yourself nicely into the second box. By insinuating that your box is full of reasonable people, you are thus painting yourself as the voice of reason. It's problematic because you are creating this idea that anyone not in your box must therefore be in the other box full of crazies and that is a narrow-minded perspective.

Onward and upward

It's not "realistically pessimistic" to call for firing a new coach 5 games into his first season at a program that objectively needs an extended rebuild. Also tjb pushed for Hugh Freeze pretty hard. I'm not saying you don't have credibility, because I actually think you do, but you do push for extreme, unpragmatic, and unrealistic solutions at times.

Edit: "you" refers to tjb

Outside it's night time, but inside it's LeDay

He...wasn't saying that it is? I think you guys are on the same side of this one

21st century QBs Undefeated vs UVA:
MV7, MV5, LT3, Braxton Burmeister, Ryan Willis, Josh Jackson, Jerod Evans, Michael Brewer, Tyrod Taylor, Sean Glennon, and Grant Noel. That's right, UVA. You couldn't beat Grant Noel.

"You" referred to tjb. My bad, that was confusing.

Outside it's night time, but inside it's LeDay

now this, I totally agree with. It's unreal that people want to fire coaches after 5 games when we knew this season was gonna be bad....

It's even weirder that some (not all, but some) of the folks who are screaming loudest for heads to roll are the same folks who were all in on Fuente up until he was gone. I guess this might be a case of once bitten twice shy? IDK. I think Fuente should have been fired after 2018. I think Pry should get a full 3 seasons before we can really evaluate him. If I'm Pry, I'm giving Bowen a full second season but he's on a short leash.

I said this about Fuente in 2018: "He needs to fire and replace his OC to save his job. If he doesn't, he'll go down with him." I REALLY don't want to have to say this about Pry in a couple years. I'm certainly not going to say it now. It's too early.

Onward and upward

I do not think we can wait to evaluate until 3 years. The markers of success may be intermediate and not evident in the win column, but no project would ever be completed properly without measurables delivered at frequent intervals.

Come to think of it, I want Whit to run an Agile department. Lets get regular scrums, rapid risk mitigation and frequent progress updates. We don't need to commit to dates, just show a good burn rate on our football progress. Seeing the VT football burndown chart will be good enough for me.

Would you like Prys with that?

People want to be proven right, even if it means Tech loses more. This is not the only fan base I'm part of that has this problem

21st century QBs Undefeated vs UVA:
MV7, MV5, LT3, Braxton Burmeister, Ryan Willis, Josh Jackson, Jerod Evans, Michael Brewer, Tyrod Taylor, Sean Glennon, and Grant Noel. That's right, UVA. You couldn't beat Grant Noel.

I want to clarify, I would 100% rather be wrong and have us start winning. You guys can point and laugh at me and call me dumb if it means we are going in the right direction.

Free Hugh

Hugh is a piece of shit, but he's a good coach, and above all else, I want VT to win. My only exception would be promoting or concealing sexual/violent crime.

Idc if he cheated, or if he was unfaithful in his marriage. It's going to hurt if we lose to him, again.

That said, he was not my first choice last season. I would have taken Napier or Huff first.

But I also would have fired Fuente several years earlier, so.....

Free Hugh

I'm definitely just a crazy person on the internet, but I do know that conservative, easy, comfortable solutions are not going to win us championships. It takes being an innovator (or at least an early adapter), absolutely ruthless and potentially reckless to even have a shot.

That's just not VT's m.o. We wait for others to invent the future, watch them vet it out, then once we're behind we try to copy it, hoping we're not too late.

Free Hugh

This was the worst football game I've attended and I'm not sure it's close. (I've sat through Ohio State 2015, ECU 2014 & 15, Cincinnati's hail mary in 2012 etc.) We got absolutely dominated by a Carolina team that is mediocre at best. I sat in the same stadium a week ago and watched Notre Dame's statistically bad offense bully that same Tar Heel D that held us to 10 (and even the touchdown drive seemed lucky at the time). This is bad, and more embarrassing than 2019 Duke.

For some background I HATE Carolina. More than UVA, more than WVU more than anyone. I hate their ego, hate their dumb stadium, hate the cult surrounding their athletics, I hate their preppy fans mixed in with rednecks who bandwagon off the Jordan brand, and most of all I hate the way they look down on everyone else.

Sitting in that stadium and watching them dominate every phase of the game was an infuriating experience. I've never been so disgusted by a sporting event in my life. Sat there listening to UNC fans talk about ACC Championship hopes, even though any football fan with a brain knows thats a bunch of bullshit. Had to appear friendly because I was with UNC friends and boy was that hard. Switched to a State shirt towards the end just to get under their skin, (State Alum).

I believe in Pry as a defensive coach but he's got a lot to prove as hc. Personally I could not take another two years of losses like this.

I feel bad for and sympathize with any Hokie that spent the money and time to attend that game in person. And I agree re. UNC; it's as though they and loluva deserve each other.

Dang man...

Here's what I saw yesterday on the TV. a team full of 4* and 5* kids for UNC winning 1 on 1 battles all over the field. They are certainly very poorly coached, particularly on the defensive side, but at the end of the day the team is loaded with elite talent.

Is coronavirus over yet?

Just a PSA to stay off Twitter

I said it last week...this is exactly the team we knew we'd have...every game forward should be about player development and incremental improvement.

"Take care of the little things and the big things will come."

I think in the off-season we might need to pull off a poor man's version of what USC just did. Complete roster overhaul with as many impact transfers as possible. We won't get the same high profile players but we can probably get some impact P5 guys that better fit what the staff wants to do. I'm hoping for a few flips in the 2023 class and a ton of transfer portal movement. OL, WR, QB, DL, DB all positions of need. Would take an impact RB if we can get one too.

I agree, but I don't know what cache this staff would have...Riley was a proven commodity whereas no one on our staff is outside of Pry himself

Sell a vision, sell playing time, great education, getting to league. We have to hopefully sell something. If we're not changing up what we want to do to fit these players, we've got to get more talent that can execute the scheme.


I'd say our staff has some bonafides:

  • Bowen coached Pat Freiermuth (2nd round 2021 draft) and Mike Gesicki (2nd round 2018)
  • Rudolph... y'all know his reputation
  • Glen is one of the best G5 coordinators of the last 5 years
  • Derek Jones coached during some of the best years at Duke when they had stout secondary
  • Prioleau had a 10 year NFL career
  • Mines has spent basically his entire career in the state of VA, and has a ton of connections

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Prioleau definitely has more qualifications than that bum Dre Bly. Except for being from the 757 that is

Not nitpicking or really questioning (ok some questioning). Can you outline the comparison for someone who might not want to do any research and only has name recognition to go off. (Also as a lions...follower?...I enjoyed bly in his twilight with them). Just a bit of context - I'm not really that familiar with Prioleau

I'm still figuring this out.

Hung around the nfl for a number of years. Took up coaching at Radford high school. Came onto tech's staff in a non coaching role. Moved up to safetys after that.

Mainly just throwing shade at Bly. He literally had not coached at all when he was added as part of Mack's staff

Bowen coached Pat Freiermuth (2nd round 2021 draft) and Mike Gesicki (2nd round 2018)

This logic doesn't really do much for me. I'm going to need more to feel good about someone who is our OC lol. This kind of thing was all we heard about Fuente -- "he coached Andy Dalton and Paxton Lynch." Freiermuth and Gesicki were both highly rated TEs, so it makes sense they go pro unless they have an absolutely terrible coach who ruins their potential (e.g. Cornelsen/Fuente).

Look, I was/am skeptical of the OC hire - I would've loved if Pry went out and hired Dan Mullen, or Brad Glen was OC and just brought his system from GA St, etc - It was an interesting hire for a first time, defensive minded head coach to make at OC.

That said, the comment I was replying to suggested that our staff (with the exception of Pry) didn't have 'cache' with recruits. However, this staff has a nice mixture of NFL playing experience, coaching NFL draft picks, and a history of recruiting nicely in the Mid-Atlantic and Carolinas.

It's reasonable and sensible to be suspect of the Offensive Staff hired, and the scheme they are implementing. However, collectively they have a history of recruiting talented players, putting players in the NFL, and even playing in the NFL.

Will these coaches' past performances translate to VT? I don't know. Maybe they won't, maybe they will. Too soon to tell IMO.

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100% agree with the first point.

Willing to give this offensive staff time but one of the most concerning things to me was the lack of any misdirection or simple counter plays, anything to test UNC's discipline on defense which is their weakness. Instead we went vanilla, almost every (every?) third down was a handoff up the middle. Carolina fans near me caught on in the second quarter, and we joked about it the rest of the game.

What was the game plan here? Line it up and just beat them? That only works for teams like Bama (and doesn't work as well now either, hence why they have been innovating starting with the Kiffin hire). Take the L but try to establish an identity? If so how long will we run headfirst into that brick wall?

Running between the tackles is the #1 weakness of this team, yet it's the one thing you can count on seeing constantly, especially in the most important parts of the game.

I think the big challenge with the O, for fans and analysts is understanding just how bad a position the O staff are starting from. I love analogies, and thought of one for this. If the O is a puzzle, most programs start with the outer edge already built, you're just finding the right pieces and putting the, in place. For us, I feel like we just got handed a bag that has 2 puzzles worth of pieces in it, the coaches have to turn all the pieces over, discarding the pieces that don't belong to the puzzle they're trying to build, and maybe by the end of the season or next year, they'll have the outer edge built for the puzzle they're trying to put together.

It seems like everyone has forgotten that Pry was trying to fill roster spots with guys from other positions because of how bad our roster was. We lost 2 OLine guys who got drafted and a third who declared - that's a lot of talent to lose (and maybe even one or two others to transfers). If the line is your foundation for other stuff you want to do, it's bad to have such a weak foundation.

That's not normal for a coaching staff to have to do. That makes it harder to get guys to play right when they're learning an entirely new position. It's not easy and that's why I think it's WAY to early to tell much of anything about this offensive coaching staff, at least in my book.

Gallo has been horrible, so I guess Bowden forgot how to coach? I doubt it. VT doesn't have much talent on offense. That's what Bowden needs to address first and foremost

We need to start at the QB position- either with recruiting or the portal. We need to be better there, or little else will matter. Go get a stud QB and build from that. We have not had a weapon at that position since Jerod Evans. I'm not counting the kid lighting up the SEC right now because he never go serious fucking burn here for some reason. Go get a QB... then worry about finding a corner that can fucking cover someone- also an issue.

Man if only we got Cam Ward๐Ÿ˜ฐ

I must have read a thousand faces
I must have robbed them of their cause
Sickened thirst, Sickened thirst
Keeps it together
Soft white glow in the cranium
A bullseye made sedated


I been here since day 0.

I mean yeah. You ok bro?

I'm still figuring this out.

Chiefs redzone play calling and goal line plays are so creative and fun....sighhhhh

if only we could swing Andy Reid as OC and recruit the second coming of Mahomes for QB...

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I can dream !

I like that you can get downvoted into oblivion here when suggesting that public figures who make millions of dollars should be fired based on their poor performance over many years. Should I be positive and thrilled that a program that was good for 20 years and has pretty substantial resources is now getting routinely blown out by middling teams?

The downvotes don't come for negative posts; they come for poorly reasoned/researched posts. If you think the staff and/or AD should be fired, share a well reasoned posts that cites evidence, examples of similar situations at other schools, think about the long term impact, etc.

Also, as an aside, I think it's important to differentiate the 'team' from the 'program' - One can be good and the other bad. The team is getting blown out, but this is the first time in over a decade that the program has 'substantial resources' (relative to top 25 schools). Substantial resources don't immediately translate to wins; it takes time.

You should not be 'thrilled' about it, but I don't know what else to say? We made a hire that address a lot of the things Fuente did poorly. We invested heavily (by VT & ACC standards) into staff for that hire... Idk what you're looking for? Do you want to fire the staff? Cool - let's talk about the impact (beyond just this season) of doing that, who an acceptable and affordable replacement is, etc. Want to talk about how it was a bad idea to hire this OC? That's an interesting conversation tbh. Who would you hire instead? What scheme would you run? Do some research and include some historical data on why a different scheme would be better given our recruiting region, conference affiliation, opposing defenses, etc.

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I think it's certainly an interesting discussion on whether Pry should have gone for a more experienced OC. I don't necessarily think our scheme is bad. There's a clear identity of what we are trying to do, but I don't think that identity fits with the players we have currently. Also I now have to wonder if more established OCs may not have been interested due to the roster situation. I can understand some of the heartburn from fans when the AD proudly proclaims our staff funding is now second in the ACC only to Clemson (probably lower now since Miami made subsequent moves) and we hire two coordinators who have never done it before (Bowen had but at Fordham, no P5 or G5 experience). But if I'm Pry, and I'm viewing this as a long-term rebuild, I can sort of understand the upside of Bowen. I personally wasn't a huge fan of the hire at the time, but really seeing what we have to work with I don't know if anyone could do much right now. Then again, I don't think Duke is more talented than VT on offense, and Elko's staff seems to be getting the most out of what he has. Is it talent, coaching, or some combination of the two right now? Probably somewhere in the middle.

I know we have discussed but Glenn is the head scratcher. Really good coach but doesn't seem to fit with what we are doing schematically. Would he/the RPO be better? Hard to say, but I think this OL just wouldn't be very good at executing much of anything.

Regardless, these coaches are going to have to bring in some transfer guys this off-season or this will never work one way or the other. I also think we need to look at a QB transfer. Wells may not be the main issue, but he's had a few years of starting experience, and I think what we're seeing may be close to his ceiling. We need more competition in that room for sure. In addition to a total overhaul of the OL and a few transfer WRs if available.

I didn't know that this was a law review instead of a sports message board. Next time I'll try to have supporting case law and carefully researched positions when I say that Babcock and Fuente stink and Pry might stink.

I don't think that's what he meant, and I'm sure there's some sarcasm there about this being a law review.

No one is saying Fu didn't suck. No one is saying Pry might suck. Whit has been a successful AD to this point and has improved our athletic department as a whole (which is his job). At the time, Fuente was a top tier hire, and when he was extended it was looking like just that. Hindsight is 20/20. To say Whit should be fired because he made 1 poor football hire is lunacy, and THATS what bar is getting at.

All that to say, downvotes aren't the end of the world, it's fake internet points. Shrug and move on.


I wouldn't even say he had a bad hire. He had a bad extension. Fuente looked to pass the eye test when we got him and for the first 2 years.

I agree that for the first 2 years Fuente passed the eye test. However, in my opinion, that was propped up by Beamer's talent/toughness on the roster and Bud being the DC.

Hindsight is always 20/20, so it's easy to look back and say it was a bad hire, ultimately though the failure wasn't that Fuente was hired/extended, it's that he wasn't fired sooner.


He wasn't saying you need all that. He was saying if you're going to come in with a hot take and no reasoning behind it or evidence THAT is why you might get downvoted. And if you don't like being downvoted, bring the logic and research. People rarely downvote something that people try to reason through - worst case is it usually doesn't get any upvotes, but would stay at 0.

A year ago at this time, this comment would've made perfect sense.

But it's too soon to pull the plug. And yes, if CornFu had started this poorly I'd have said the same thing about them. We aren't even halfway through regular season play yet.

21st century QBs Undefeated vs UVA:
MV7, MV5, LT3, Braxton Burmeister, Ryan Willis, Josh Jackson, Jerod Evans, Michael Brewer, Tyrod Taylor, Sean Glennon, and Grant Noel. That's right, UVA. You couldn't beat Grant Noel.

I was in the stadium for most of that debacle. First game I've left early in over a decade. This is still my current mood and I don't smoke......

I told him Iโ€™d crawl on my hands and knees to be the DL coach at Virginia Tech. Now, all of a sudden, Iโ€™m sitting in this chair and I told him Iโ€™d still crawl on my hands and knees to work here. I just want to be here.
JC Price

That is a phenomenal photoshop job by whoever did that

Here lies It's a Stroman Jersey I Swear, surpassed in life by no one because he intercepted it.

This needs to go plaid.

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1. This is phenomenal.

2. This is also basically what Whit Babcock looked like walking out of most games last year.

Shoot, it was about time for a new avatar anyways...

There is no easy solution.

Fuente was hot garbage for years. That is not going to be undone in 9 months.

1. Connor and Gallo- 2 vets were absolutely horrible in the game. 2. Lofton dropped 3 easy balls. 3. UNC could have scored 70 each of the last 2 times we played down there, but many of our fans mock Mack Brown and say recruiting means nothing. 4. It's going to be a long couple of years.

The 'recruiting ranking means nothing' argument has always bewildered me. Yes, you can get 2-star performance out of a 5-star recruit, and occasionally, you can get the reverse. But the reverse takes longer development, which means time. VT hung their hat on this approach throughout our bowl run, and got a lot of success out of it. The problem is that when the injury bug hits, this approach magnifies the production lost by reaching further into the depth chart.


I agree. I think the root of that around here is Frank Beamer was a special coach in terms of his ability to coach up or otherwise out evaluate other coaching staffs. Coaching absolutely matters too, but this fanbase I think has an underappreciated sense of how much recruiting matters because of Beamer. Or at least the older fans do.

How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Jet Sweep

Beamer had a great coaching staff at the height of his run- this is an underrated aspect of VT football. Billy Hite, Jim Cavanaugh, Bud Foster, Charlie Wiles and Torrian Gray are all great college coaches. That cant be understated. Also Beamer is arguably the best college special teams coach of all time. Had we had a young outstanding play caller/OC like a McVay or Shannahan or even a Jimbo Fisher in the early 2000's we would have won at least 1 Natty. The rest of the coaching staff was exceptional.

It's a lot easier to get a five-star performance from a five-star than a two-star.

Yes, Christian Darrisaw. That's a person. If your coach is good enough in player evaluations to field a team of Christian Darrisaws, then that's what your coach should be doing. But that's close to impossible.

Stars matter, they're not everything but it's pretty damn hard to win without them.

Agree. Solid technique, training and fundamentals will increase a player's effectiveness, and when combined into an entire starting team, the effects are only magnified. But when another equally well-coached team, with more talent comes along, more often than not, the higher talent wins.

Yes there are some notable exceptions that are oft pointed out: VT F'n beat OSU in the shoe! Then, VT went on to finish 5th place in the Coastal. OSU won the national championship...with their 3rd string QB. You can't replace talent to consistently compete at a high level.


Mocking Mack Brown's recruiting is different than saying recruiting doesn't matter. A top 30 recruiting team could easily beat a top 10 recruiting Mack Brown team.

Recruiting 100% matters but we dont need to be top ten team, we just have to recruit like we almost always have (and keep them at VT) and we will win a lot more games.

I agree with almost all your other takes about the game... but recruiting is 100% overrated.

This idea that we're losing like this because we aren't getting the high school talent is a Tech fan fallacy. We have more talented recruits than App State, full stop. App State scored 40 on Carolina in a quarter. We scored 10 in 4 quarters. Why?

1) They develop their talent. App State's players are better than ours. But they sure weren't better recruits. You can get a long way through player development, which we haven't had in a long time.

2) They scheme to their strengths and their opponent's weaknesses. What film study was done of UNC's defense prior to this game? What about the UNC defense did Tech coaches plan to exploit to give us an edge in this game? I honestly can't point to a single thing.

To point 1, one of my criticisms of the Fuente regime is that our players didn't develop. Even when the recruiting classes were good enough to win, those players never or rarely showed year over year improvement. And/or they transferred. And those players that were both poorly recruited and underdeveloped are what this current staff has inherited. Maybe Pry isn't the guy in the end, but the reality is I think we need as long as 4 years to really know. Yes, I really think it's going to take that long to unfuck this program even in a best case scenario.

How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Jet Sweep

The idea that its going to take FOUR YEARS to turn this around is crazy to me. Some of y'all are acting like we're Duke or Kansas who was winning 2 or 3 games per year. Even in Fuente's WORST season we were a middle-of-the-road P5 team and got to bowl eligibility (yes, even in 2020, when we could have played in a bowl but the players voted against it).

If you want to wait four years, go for it. But while we're waiting, there will be countless more examples of coaching staffs who inherit worse situations than we have and start winning in year 1 or 2.

Nobody WANTS to wait four years.

But expecting a coach to come in at the end of the Fuente shit show (which was actually getting worse by the year) and start with a winning tradition is a mistake.

I think many of us are OK with Pry giving it a shot, and we're patient enough to give him a couple of years.

You changed the number of years though.... sure, I'm willing to give him a couple of years. But four? That's absurd.

What's your definition of a "couple" then?

Clearly has to be 2+, right? To only give Pry 2 years without an absolute utter collapse or scandal would be dumb. So if you're saying that the difference between firing from year 3 to 4 is "absurd", it completely depends on the situation at the time. It's way too far in advance to say whether Pry will earn that 3rd or 4th year.


Honest question, how are you feeling if we're sitting at 2 or 3 wins at the end of next season? What if our attempt to grow via portal this offseason doesn't impress and recruiting hasn't improved? I agree, 2 years isn't the right amount of time, but at what point do you expect to start seeing some upward trajectory?

At the end of year 2 if we are sitting 2-10 or 3-9 with minimal progress in the portal and no improvement in recruiting, then its time to take a very hard look at what's going wrong. If say, Pry completely revamps the staff then I say give it another year. If he pulls a "that's ludicrous bullcrap" ร  la Fuente, then I would lean towards its time to scrap it and start again.


How do you feel about a growth path like Chip Kelly at UCLA?

Season Overall Record In Conference Record Result Recruiting Rank Comments
2018 3โ€“9 3โ€“6 5th (South) 19 Mostly recruited by previous staff
2019 4โ€“8 4โ€“5 Tโ€“3rd (South) 40
2020 3โ€“4 3โ€“4 5th (South) 33 COVID season
2021 8โ€“4 6โ€“3 Tโ€“2nd (South) 32
2022 5โ€“0 2-0 (South) 61 11 recruits, 6 4-stars (top 20ish avg player)

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with minimal progress in the portal and no improvement in recruiting

the qualifier here is progress off the field. I don't know anything about what Chip Kelly has done at UCLA but I think it would be interesting to see the recruiting trends over his first 3 years. If his record struggled but he was improving recruiting and building up the roster with the transfer portal then I think that might be acceptable to HokieFan4Ever

Onward and upward

sidenote - I just looked at UCLA's schedule for this year and unless I'm mistaken they only have 4 road games!?!

Onward and upward

Updated. His recruiting classes were mostly mediocre. Big drop off from Mora's.

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this is certainly interesting. Honestly, if I didn't know the name and was just looking at those trends blind I would see enough flags to want to move on. But to DC's point below, Chip is a proven commodity. His offenses at Oregon were lethal. The holes that his backs had to run through were big enough for a double-wide. I wanted that offense in Blacksburg so, so badly. I've learned, though, that Blacksburg is where offense comes to die. I don't think we're ever meant to have a good offense and we likely never will have one. Our identity is really strong defense and special teams and doing just enough on offense to squeak out ugly defensive wins.

Onward and upward

this is certainly interesting. Honestly, if I didn't know the name and was just looking at those trends blind I would see enough flags to want to move on.

Looking from the outside, I certainly agree. I don't pretend to follow UCLA football closely, so it's possible that there were 'green flags' that aren't obvious - that 61st ranked recruiting class with a top 20 average player ranking is definitely interesting.

I imagine that moving from the Jim Mora West Coast offense to the Chip Kelly spread takes a lot of roster turnover. I also imagine Chip took the UCLA job with the understanding that they would be very patient.

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Great- if we actually had Chip Kelly. Why? I have watched football a long time- college and pro. To this day I have never seen so many consistent wide-open huge seams/plays than with those Oregon Ducks teams. Not even the Patriots with Brady and Moss. Every game they had guys running free with nobody near them- unstoppable. Yes please give me that guy specifically- not just his win trajectory.

I get your point - Kelly has a damn good college resume and bonafides that our current staff does not.

That said, there are a lot of people who were unsure about Kelly at UCLA because they thought he was a 'scheme guy' who's scheme was now mainstream and no longer unique (and thus no longer to prepare for) - just like RichRod, Gus Malzahn, and Chad Morris, and many others. Additionally, It's been reported that Kelly doesn't like recruiting, and it's one of the reasons he turned down UF for UCLA - so there's not a great likelihood of him out-talenting other teams. However, it clearly seems to be working in year 5 (TBF, one of those years was a COVID season).

All this to say, our turnaround will take time. It's not clear how much time, and it's tough to say up front what the timetable will be or when we need to see 'progress' (much less what counts as progress).

I think this is one of those 'lose by a lot' --> 'lose by a little' --> 'win by a little' --> 'win by a lot' situations. We'll see.

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I would absolutely take a growth path like that. All day every day.


Even if you didn't know the outcome? I mean, say we go 3-9 this season, and next season is 4-8, with back-to-back top 35 recruiting classes. Then season 3 is also 4-5 wins... You going to be okay with that in season 3?

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Season 3 for Kelly is difficult to truly assess since it was the covid season. Without knowing the outcome, yes I would still take it being top 35 recruiting classes with the lone caveat being we aren't repeating the same mistakes a la Fuente not giving Corn the boot.


I'd take that in a heartbeat

21st century QBs Undefeated vs UVA:
MV7, MV5, LT3, Braxton Burmeister, Ryan Willis, Josh Jackson, Jerod Evans, Michael Brewer, Tyrod Taylor, Sean Glennon, and Grant Noel. That's right, UVA. You couldn't beat Grant Noel.

Why are we getting so bent out of shape over how many years we are going to give Pry? We're giving him at least 2. I think he deserves 3. Regardless, why are we worried about it now? If we win 5+ games next season and look a lot more competitive, this was 100% wasted effort and anxiety. We KNEW this year was going to be a shitshow, and it is. I know people somehow thought we could win 8 games, and the "how many years are we giving him" exercise sounds like we're still feeling like that's what we shoulda had and so we gotta figure out how short the leash should be. Projecting 2-3 wins for next year sounds like you're convinced Pry is going to fail.

I mean, the wins suck, but it's hard to imagine we get WORSE on wins from where we are now, and recruiting may not be great this year, but we're doing things a LOT differently, so I wouldn't necessarily expect this recruiting class to be as good as we want either. Pry is doing a lot of foundation building stuff that feels like it will be good, you just don't see the results right away.

Relax- it was a thought exercise for someone who said looking at other options after 2 years was dumb. I hope Pry will succeed, and I think he will, but it was a question for a discussion, if you don't want to participate please scroll on.

Sorry - wasn't just directed at you, just made my response bigger for all the others who were coming up with a 2 year limit and projecting low wins next year also. Seems like this type of exercise is just fanning the flames of anxiety over our performance this year is all.

Unless there is some off the field issue or Whit leaves, Pry is getting at least 5 years. Vt doesn't have unlimited money and if Pry is doing things the right way, he will get at least that long to clean up from the guy who thought Burmeister was better than Hendon Hooker and hired a DC without even P5 position coach experience and running back coaches that were film assistants. That dumpster fire is at least a 5 year rebuild.

This is what I don't get for the people who are already thinking Pry might need to go. We don't have the kind of money to pay buyouts for coaches every 2-3 years.

Where I'm from, "A Couple" = 2.

After 2 years, it'll be pretty obvious if the staff is remotely competent or not. If we win 5 or 6 games TOTAL over the next 2 years, show no progress in recruiting/portal, and Pry refuses to make changes on the staff, it's pretty obvious we need to say that we hired the wrong staff and move on.

If it takes 4 terrible seasons of not getting to a bowl, no recruiting/portal improvement, no staff changes, etc. to realize that, then that is what I'm labeling "absurd."

If money is important, Pry's buyout is 70% of his base pay (plus his incentives). He has a 6 year contract. His salary is as follows:

  • '22 and '23: $4M
  • '24 and '25: $4.75M
  • '26 and '27: $5M

If fired after year:

  • 2, the buyout is $13.65M
  • 3, the buyout is $10.325M
  • 4, the buyout is $7M
  • 5, the buyout is $3.5M

Regardless of product and merely based on finances, I think he gets 4 years to figure it out, especially since VT is already on the hook for $8.75M for Fuente.

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As long as Pry's defense stays in the top 50 he should absolutely get four years.

It's Bowen who has two to figure it out imo. Roster turnover will cloud next year's results, but if the offense doesn't improve measurably over the next next two years he should absolutely be replaced

Hey dude. We're probably going 3-9 this year, probably 4-8 next year. We are currently mid-10's Duke/Kansas just with better football history. It's absolutely taking 4 years and that's only if we can survive another 4 years

Hey dude. There's a reason Kansas kept firing their coach after every 2-3 seasons. Because even in a worse situation than we are right now, they knew that it doesn't take four years to figure out if you have the wrong staff. They finally found the right guy, and guess what? It only took two. It's too early to tell for Elko, but Duke found at least a competent coaching staff, and guess what? They're winning in year one.

If we go 3-9 year one, 4-8 year two, and recruiting looks as bleak as it does right now, and we keep this staff around with no changes heading into year three, then that would be absurd.

Beaty got 4 years and Les was only fired for accusations while at LSU. Charlie Weis was the last guy to get fired for performance before that. Leipold's offense will get snuffed out as everyone's gimmick offense does. Firing the head guy before he gets his first recruiting class to upper classmen is stupid and part of the reason Kansas' best coach in the last 2 decades only had a .510 record.

Duke wasn't as poorly coached as these guys were for the last 5 years, Cutty wasn't a bad coach.

I do agree coordinator's and position coaches should have very short leashes here and that to me will determine how long Pry actually gets, but yeah we're 4 minimum away from anything resembling a football team

VT football's time table is based on one thing- players/talent. Simply follow that aspect. If Pry signs 2 straight uneven, 2-3 star laden classes that don't address needs and don't have anyone over 250 pounds in them, we are in deep shit. It's as simple as that. The sooner VT signs some 4 star players that address needs and don't all play the same position, the sooner we will be competitive. There are no hidden gems today, no under the radar guys, no sleepers. If VT is at the bottom of the ACC in recruiting, that is going to be damn accurate to what you see on the field. It's that simple. Calling timeouts and deciding when to go for it on 4th down is far secondary to a 4 star OLB that can run and is 240 pounds. Far down the list compared to a 6'04 dual threat QB that can play. Fix the talent, fix the program. Just that simple.

Agree. Unfortunately, we need to win some games to get those 4-star athletes.


This is a mind-numbingly terrible and inaccurate way to look at things. We could every 4 and 5 star player we could ever want, and if we can't coach them up / create a winning culture / play disciplined football / etc. it won't mean a damn thing.

Heck, just look at the ACC this year: The three "least-talented" teams according to recruiting rankings are Duke, Syracuse, and Wake Forest, who all have less than 5 four-star athletes on their team (Duke only has two).

Wake just went shot-for-shot with Clemson and is probably the 2nd best team in the league, Duke is 4-1 with 30+ points in every game, and Syracuse is undefeated.

On the other side of things, Miami has FORTY-SIX four and five star athletes. And they just got absolutely outclassed by Middle Tennessee. They look terrible. North Carolina, at 32, went 6-7 last year and look very mediocre so far this year. Heck, Georgia Tech has 17 and they're so bad they just fired their coach.

I could give you a thousand more examples, but I'll leave it at that. "Fix the talent, fix the program" might work if you're playing NCAA 14, but in the real world, talent is only one piece of the pie when it comes to how good your team is.

Wakes coach has been there for 8 years and had records of 3-8 his first two years; so yeah we can have that but you're gonna have to wait pry isn't a miracle worker. So if you want him to win to attract recruits give him time to train them up then watch the recruits come. Can't fire him after a bad year or two when's his best offensive weapon is a walk on wr and a kicker who has played football for a year

Yep, keep caring and keep participating. As long as we improve week to week everything will take care of itself. The worst thing we can do as fans is quit on this team

Completely agree! And to your point, with this coaching staff, I think we also played a risky long-term game when we hired a first-time HC, first-time OC, and first-time DC. Not only are we banking on the fact that the players will get trained up and be better players, we're also hoping that our coaches will learn on the job and eventually become better coaches as well.

Hard disagree.... See Clemson. They have dominated the ACC the past decade- Duke and Syracuse have sucked total ass and Wake has been scrappy at best. One year means nothing.

"Scrappy at best?" You're talking about the second-best ACC team over the past 5 years and the only team other than Clemson to win the Atlantic.

Also, I see you ignored Miami and North Carolina. If your argument is that talent = success and it is as simple as that, then why are those teams puttering around .500 every year in the worst division in the P5? Crazy that Miami/UNC has a roster full of 4 and 5 star athletes year after year and they almost never win more than 7-8 games.

In terms of Clemson, I acknowledge that their talent has been one key part of their success. But other parts include a great head coach, the best coaching staff overall in the ACC, etc. With that combination, of course they've dominated the ACC. But no, having four and five star players isn't the ONLY reason.

I'm also talking about a team Fuente beat... and has been at the bottom of the atlantic for a better part of 20 years.

We will never agree on talent not being the prime correlation to winning in CFB. Have a nice day.

Name a team that has made the playoffs with a bunch of 2 star players overcome by the next vince lombardi? I'll wait.

Haha why did you jump to the playoffs?? Do you really think there isn't any room for improvement between where we are and making the college football playoff?

Of course you need elite players to make the college football playoff. Absolutely no one is arguing against that. But your argument was that talent = success. Which is undeniably false. We could be a hell of a lot better with the talent we have right now.

See A&M, Texas

Why did you jump to Miami? Why not use Alabama or Ohio State? - oh it doesn't fit your theory. What is not theory is that no team wins at the highest level in CFB without a shit ton of talent. If you want to cherry pic Duke beating temple and UVA this year as your point, fine. Or even Wake winning the Atlantic once in 20 years fine.. but that's what that is- anomalies.

Of course those teams fit my theory. My theory is that elite talent + elite coaching/football culture = winning. I don't know what is hard to understand about that.

And by the way, Miami is no anomaly. Pery 24/7, Texas A&M, Texas, Oklahoma, Notre Dame, Miami, UNC, Auburn, South Carolina, Stanford, and Nebraska all have enough talent to fill their entire lineup with four-star players. And yet... they're all average or below average. Again, talent is one factor, not the only factor.

ND, aTm and Oklahoma are average THIS year. They were all in NY6 bowl games way back in- last year. ND has been a top 10 program for 5 years or so, and aTm has been far better than VT since 2010. Oklahoma has been a top 5 team this decade- easily. In terms of Miami and UNC... UNC just did whatever they wanted to VT on both sides of the ball, and Miami has beaten us 4 out of the last 5. We mock mack brown with this theory, but 2 of the last 3 years he has torched VT. He also won the coastal a couple years back. So Oklahoma for example- changes coaches and have a down year and all of the sudden VT's issue is not trotting out a bunch of 2 star players. Like I said- OK, fine. I'll never agree with that.

Okay... I don't know if you're just misremembering things, or being intentionally deceitful, but, couple things....

1) Mack has never won the Coastal, so I don't know where that came from.
2) We don't have a single 2-star player in our starting 22 this year... and you say we're trotting out a "bunch?" Okay.
3) You cherry-pick the last '3 years against UNC', and then switch to 5 against Miami. Are you just intentionally being deceitful or...? (By the way, Fu was 5-1 against UNC, with the only loss coming in the covid year by 11 when we were missing half our team. We must have outrecruited them by your theory, right?).

Anyways, you're completely misrepresenting my points, bringing up things that are objectively false, and I can tell we're just not going to agree on this. So honestly I don't know why we're going back and forth on this. Have a good day.

1. my mistake on mack. I got lost in the coastal wheel of death. my bad. 2. yes, a bunch of 2 stars was hyperbole. a bunch of 3 stars is not however. That one Fu loss, Mack could have scored 100 points if he wanted.. but noted. and UNC was also dealing with Covid.

Wells, Jason Brown, and Jadan Blue are all 2*s in some regard

Free Hugh

The argument wasn't "talent = success" but more like "talent is a prerequisite for success".

Plenty of unsuccessful teams are talented.
Far far fewer untalented teams find success.

"Why gobble gobble chumps asks such good questions, I will never know." - TheFifthFuller

If that was his argument, I would have agreed completely. You laid it out perfectly.

But this was his argument:
"VT football's time table is based on one thing- players/talent. Simply follow that aspect."... "Fix the talent, fix the program. Just that simple."

Which is far from the truth, as I've shown with all the teams in the country that are filled with four-and-five star talent and yet are bad teams.

I stand 100% by that. We looked a hell of a lot better with Tyrod than we do Wells. I could name 50 other examples. Kendall Fuller covered UNC's WRs a hell of a lot better than Connor did.

it's not hard to grasp his argument from the context of his other comments (2*s in the playoff, etc). he often does a subpar job of communicating and then just doubles down with some snark.

he's looking at teams that historically have a lot of talent doing better historically than teams that don't. development and coaching can paper over the cracks. but the point stands (that he said upthread) -- you can't really have any sort of sustained success as a program without bringing in high end talent. ("no team wins at the highest level without talent")

talent and coaching aren't either/or -- but if you had to have one to try and be competitive, you should pick talent.

"Why gobble gobble chumps asks such good questions, I will never know." - TheFifthFuller

Just got around to listening to today's TSL podcast. Our very own French even got a shout out from CC!

Some pretty strong criticism of Bowen from the panel prompted by a question/criticism from Dwight Vick. Can't say I disagreed with anything they said. Obviously it's way too early to draw any big conclusions or start saying people should be fired, but as Vick indicated with his question, we are just not creative enough on offense currently. I can somewhat understand if we have all young players on offense who will be in the program for years and want them to slowly learn the basics. But most of these guys aren't part of the long-term build of this program. We need to start adding some wrinkles and building in some creativity that the players we do have this year can execute to score some points. Talent is an issue, but lack of production to this low a level is alarming and unacceptable. Some general concern about Bowen's inexperience with two more experienced former OCs on staff not in that role. Again, can't say I disagreed with much.

I think criticism like that is based on having returning starters, experience, talent, and other things we just don't have the luxury of having. Don't forget that these guys aren't coaches, and probably haven't seen a rebuild like the one we're undertaking. We lost 3 starting OLine guys, our 2 best receivers, and the roster didn't have much depth because we had 10 freaking RBs. Pry and company were switching guys between positions on O to see who they could fill positions of need with. When you're doing shit like that, we're not even talking guys who are supposed to be the starters down the road in those positions - they're gap fillers, possibly down to the true freshmen. Do you play the true freshmen because they're the ones likely to be I. The program and carry everything forward with them?

I think the criticism is based on a set of assumptions that just aren't valid with this team right now. I'm not sure we have the "future of the program" that everyone wants to see play for experience and game time, who will be the ones who should understand the play book and be able to be creative and all that. This roster was galactically fucked, so how do you criticize the bubble gum and band aid approach we HAD to take to fix it?

You don't address the point that Bowen has yet to show the ability to scheme to the few playmakers left on the offensive roster. He has also not shown the ability to adjust when his scheme is simply not working. Please remind me of the definition of insanity again?

The definition of insanity is thinking that 5 games is an appropriate sample size to drawn conclusive judgments ๐Ÿ˜‡

"Why gobble gobble chumps asks such good questions, I will never know." - TheFifthFuller

The definition of insanity is running your backs on the inside for four games straight for next to no yards, and insisting on continuing to do so

Is it the definition of insanity if it's treating the game time as practice time to force and reinforce change in scheme/technique? I dont think this season is really about being "successful" in conventional metrics.

"Why gobble gobble chumps asks such good questions, I will never know." - TheFifthFuller

I'm actually very middle of the road here, I'm patient and navigating through what every logical fan knew would be a total rebuild year. I'm just also somewhat tired of seeing comments that it's unfair to judge the playcalling or game management aspects one third of the way through a season. VTJ12's comment showing that a lot of intelligent people who make a living from analyzing football are questioning what we've seen and I don't think HokieDoug's total dismissal of those opinions is fair.

My definition of insanity is running up the middle 18 times for 35 yards instead of attacking the edges or throwing the ball.

I'm just glad hokiedoug started adding paragraph breaks in his long form comments (which are many)

"Why gobble gobble chumps asks such good questions, I will never know." - TheFifthFuller

What playmakers that were left are you referring to? Holston has been injured, so Bowen isn't adjusting anything to him. King got injured (but he wasn't even considered a returning producer). Which receivers are you thinking of? What tight ends were the big producers? Which QBs? There isn't a single returning producer that's been healthy. I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but our leading producers in every category on O left the team last year, except maybe a Holston, and again, he's been injured, AND running behind a line that lost 3 starters, 2 of whom were actually drafted.

So I'd rather you tell me which players he really should be scheming for? Also, how many receivers have dropped balls that should have been catchable? He's probably trying to figure out who he can scheme for, before he can actually scheme for anyone. And, as GGC pointed out, it's 5 games in, so that hasn't given him a lot of time to identify the playmakers and then come up with the right schemes for them.

I mean, we had 10 RBs. Do we go triple option?

This is a random point, but I don't know who started the rumor that having 10 RBs is absurd or crazy, but we really gotta stop with that. I see people constantly bringing up that stat as an indictment of Fuente and all (I guess because it makes you sound like you know how to manage a team / how many players are usually at each position), and there were a lot of things to complain about in regards to the last regime, but this isn't it.

Just for fun, I looked up today how many scholarship RBs each ACC team has this year, and most (almost all) teams have between 8-10. VT and UNC have the least with 6.

I did some additional research. Yes, it appears schools do have around 8 RBs. Not sure where you saw 10, maybe GT and some other teams when they were running the triple option.

I checked out a couple schools, Clemson has 8 RBs on the roster, as you said. I checked out their rankings, only 4 of them were ranked as recruits. I dug more, the other 4 all joined the team as walk ons, one of which got a scholarship for this year. I think the point is we had 10 SCHOLARSHIP RBs on the roster where most other schools have 4-5, but none more than 6 scholarship RBs, (I looked at Alabama, Clemson, Miami, NCState, Oklahoma, and us. For the record, we now have 6 scholarships RBs on the roster).

Edited to remove snarkiness.

Again, my point is that having 10 isn't a crazy number by any stretch or outside the norm. Having 10 in one year isn't some damning indictment of a staff, given how hard it is to balance scholarships/offers/targets/etc. I mean heck, Wake has eleven scholarship RBs this year, and Clawson is just about the best there is when it comes to putting a roster together with limited resources. There are dozens of valid complaints about the previous regime; this isn't one.

But look, if you want to really dive into the numbers, here are the number of scholarship RBs each ACC school had last year (according to 24/7 sports): 10, 6, 10, 6, 7, 6, 9, 9, 6, 6, 11, 5, 10, 10. So half the schools had 9 or more, half had 7 or less (originally I was looking at 2022 numbers, which is where I got the 8-10 number from.

Edit: Thanks for 'removing the snarkiness' lol, I'm really not trying to be combative or anything; just wanted to point something minor out.

Not sure where you're getting 11 RBs on Wake? 247 shows them as having 7, Wake's website shows 8. I sorted both by position to count.

If you're just looking at 247, they show walk-ons in addition to scholarship. In looking at 247 for Clemson, they show 8, I had to go to Clemson's roster and look at bios to see that 4 were walk-ons (one offered a scholly this year). So 247 isn't accurate unless you verify all players are actually scholarship.

And even if you're talking 8 vs 10, I'd bet we would have like to have had an extra OLine or receiver this year instead of thos extra RBs. Granted, we're down to 6, but Pry and Bowen still had to balance the roster without really knowing what they had.

That is confusing... I was looking at the scholarship distribution chart for each ACC team, which shows how many scholarships each team has used on each player based on their position as a recruit. In that case Wake had 11, but I guess they've moved 3 players to other positions.

At any rate though, with your last paragraph, you stumbled on my major point here: Yes, you'd love to always have the same number of players at positions each season (ex. 4 QBs, 8 RBs, etc.). But in reality, that is so beyond realistic. Players transfer out and in. More/less players commit than you expect. Etc. etc. etc. As a coach managing all these factors, you're virtually guaranteed to be unbalanced at a certain position in any given year. And thus, having 2 more running backs than normal in one year isn't abnormal at all.

I wasn't able to watch the game Saturday. (Thanks, Dish and Disney. F you both!) And after hearing a vague description of the outcome, I haven't looked into it any further. I don't even know the final score. I think I'm just going to mentally chuck this one into the trash and look ahead to beating Pitt.

If you're not sure if my comment warrants a "/s", it probably does.

Final score: A lot to a little.

I didn't get a chance to watch this game until now.

Let me just say 2 things.

This is what most teams look like, this will be what most teams look like from here on out.
Sure there may be the transfer portal for a quick shot in the arm at certain positions, but College football on a whole is on a downward trend.

This game was just a showcase of what happens when 2 mediocre teams "Battle" it out.
The CFB landscape has always been between the haves and the have nots.

Beamer was able to largely capitalize on a talent rich area in order to pull some game breakers away from the big boys and find diamonds.

It was never an easy job for Beamer and speaks volumes to what he was able to accomplish.

This will be what we are until we are old and dead.
Each game will be able to go either way based more on mistakes than great play.

and 2, Pry is a decent CFB coach. he will get better and likely might find success when he is able to get some transfer talent or find guys for his system.

But success for VT will be short lived as if he finds success, he will move on to the next contract.

Then we will all be saying, man Pry left the cupboard bare.

This is what College FB is at this point. Teams struggling to attract transfer talent to try to find a bolt of lightning. The problem is the game of football requires too many talented people to be completely aligned at all times in order to win.

But with the NIL and Social Media, no players will stay when they are offered more and those that are not good enough will bring their gripes to social media.

I say pack it in, save some money and concentrate on Basketball.
It's cheaper. just as good for brand, and is less players that are needed to be considered good and make a run.

Gobble Gobble!

Then we will all be saying, man Pry Fuente left the cupboard bare.


Nah he meant Pry. Not sure I agree with OP's points though.

Yes, college football is on a downward trend, not because of lack of talent or even consolidation of talent at the top (I could argue that college football players have never been more talented than now due to conditioning techniques, availability of resources, etc., and that talent is more widespread than ever), but rather because of a societal culture shift away from football and towards non-contact sports (basketball and soccer). CTE research has had an enormous impact on the sport and has made us generally shy away from football - matter of fact, the football we watch today is far softer on contact (for the better IMO) than in the past to avoid long-term ramifications of concussions. We see much more spread offense and much less power running and much less hard hitting than in the past for this reason, and I think this has accelerated the decline of football overall - dudes colliding into other dudes with reckless abandon is the Roman-era gladiator type entertainment that made football popular.

Also, social media, NIL, dynastic success are great for exposure but at the end of the day, a recruit will commit to a school first and foremost because of a relationship established with the coach/recruiter. Those relationships are established best by in-person face time (in-home visits, unofficial school visits, etc.) THIS was Fuente's downfall on the recruiting trail - he couldn't forge the kind of relationships that make people commit with the kind of recruits that would breed cultural success at Tech (talented locals that grew up VT Fans). This will honestly be the bread and butter of our rebuild - rebuilding the local talent pipelines.

And the linchpin to that success is Brent Pry's commitment to VT. He said himself that he would not have taken a HC job anywhere else. I know it's early on, but even if he catches fire and takes off, he might still not go anywhere else.

I do appreciate OP's candor - it sucks seeing the team you love suck, but don't lose hope.

non-contact sports (basketball and soccer).

I don't think my definition of non-contact is the same as yours. Basketball and Soccer are definitely not non-contact. They're not as violent as football, certainly, but they're definitely not non-contact. You want non-contact sports? Golf, Tennis, Fishing, etc.

Onward and upward

Varying definitions over the years and depending on who you ask.. The better differentiation is FULL contact vs. LIMITED contact. By that definition the difference is often considered as

In full-contact sports, contact is not only INEVITABLE but INTEGRAL to the sport-E.G. american football,hockey,wrestling

Basketball is classified as a non-contact sport because it does not require players to wear any protective equipment. In contrast, in a contact sport such as football or hockey, you must wear protective gear to prevent injury.n non-contact sports, there are rules to penalize players who intentionally make contact with their opponents. You will be penalized if you are caught making physical contact with your opponent in a non-contact sport.

Not a perfect delineation but perhaps more accurate than contact vs. non-contact. Just my opinion of course.

From the 2018 VT-uva game-"This is when LEGENDS are made!"

I can't believe we're here. These are off-season topics to kill the time until football season.

uva - the taint of the ACC

Soccer is an interesting case to discuss based on your delineations. Soccer requires protective gear (shin guards) so it would fall into the category of contact sports. Soccer also penalizes physical contact, but only in cases where the physical contact is illegal. Football and hockey also have rules about what kind of physical contact is legal and illegal. E.g. targeting, late hits, chop blocks, slashing, various checking, etc. In Soccer you are allowed to make very aggressive contact with your shoulder as long as it's not into the back of the other player. Slide tackles, which almost always include physical contact, are legal so long as the ball is contacted first. Collisions happen quite frequently, especially on set pieces, and are usually within the rules of the game.

So, though I would stop short of calling Soccer full contact, I think it absolutely qualifies as a contact sport.

Even in basketball, boxing out requires physical contact. Though I would generally argue that Soccer is more of a contact sport than basketball.

Onward and upward