After modeling the data and reviewing the code, I'm giving some serious consideration to implementing a monthly payment option for TKPC. The price point would be $9.99 / month. Off the top of my head, the only thing that would be different is that membership wouldn't come with a keychain bottle opener because of the cost to manufacturer and ship.
Quite simply, what I want to know is. Is if you could join TKPC for $9.99 / month, would you, as soon as it's available? Either upvote this topic or leave a comment to indicate your response.
Thank you for the feedback!
Forums:
DISCLAIMER: Forum topics may not have been written or edited by The Key Play staff.
Comments
Joe, Would this be a conversion of all TKPC memberships to a monthly plan or would this be providing 2 options - Yearly Subscription at current rates (and with swag), and Monthly Subscription with no swag? I'd prefer to keep my annual thing going.
Not Joe, but that's is how I interpreted it; yearly subscription is $84 with swag. Monthly is $9.99 without swag. That way, people just wanting football season TKPC pay from August to December (5 months) for $49.95.
Good question. There would be both annual and monthly options.
No. I would have before but not at this point. From my perspective you are in a no win situation. I wont pay to be part of a community that I grow increasingly frustrated with. TKP really isnt an enjoyable addiction anymore. That is largely due to the failures of the football program and how it has affected dialogue here. Prime example is Corny's review. I will get blasted for this but French's reaction was ridiculous and the whole thread was a downer orgy. I never chimed in but now you've asked. The moderators job is impossible but I also dont think it is done well.
Do you mind unpacking this? We tend to get much less feedback than anyone might guess, and "needs improvement" feedback is often more helpful at seeing blind spots than the "good job thanks appreciate it" kind of feedback. I'm always interested in how I can improve as a mod here and make the community better
Personally, I think you're doing a great job. You're being dealt a tough hand and you're doing your best to deal with it.
You're a Giants fan. Pretty damning indictment right there.
And so is Joe 🙂
I know, its amazing the lights stay on in this place sometime
😂
My biggest complaint is that in the middle of basketball threads people are shitting on Fuente. We have 100 ongoing threads for that, why do it in a basketball thread. Our basketball team did something good, and peoples reactions is why can't football be like basketball. Not yay basketball, but boo football. It's exhausting.
I second this.
There's very little that can be done about that. We try to force things back on topic, but there's a stark contrast between how football and basketball are run and the results show and folks want to talk about that and compare and contrast.
Honestly, the football program sucking has drained some (a lot) of the life from the fan base and that's reflected on TKP.
Joe you want me to come back more and comment I'm sure I can think of some things to liven things up fast.
Oh 100% agree with you, this was not a knock on the mods at all, its just one of those things that make it harder for me to stay engaged.
PS I prefer the yearly subscription.
I hear you, and thanks for bringing it up.
Yeah I'm with Joe on this one. I don't run a website but I do run one of the largest fishing pages in South Carolina and as a mod/ owner there is only so much you can do with certain sentiment. You over moderate and people are pissed you let the grey area slide and things go to shit.
I can personally say I've made rash decisions on here just based on how the community is acting and I told Joe to cancel my sub awhile back. Before it even got to the renewal I changed my.mind because I realize the reason I got so involved was because TKP is a pretty good "friend group". We all probably piss in each other's cheerios more than we should but someone finds it funny 🤷♂️
I appreciate you bringing this up. I don't think anyone realizes how tough these circumstances are to manage unless you've been on the other side (my side) of the situation.
I certainly don't envy you lot
Not who you asked an opinion from, but I am not sure it is as much a moderator thing. As person who generally likes to think the best of people and looks for the positives more than negatives, I enjoy reading when people write good things about the thinks I love (VT). As a former teacher and someone who loves to learn new things, I love it when French breaks down film. But I do not like when the fine people who put out sponsored content take a position that attacks one of our coaches. It is a valid opinion, and one in many ways I agree with, but when it comes from French in a TKPC article it comes across that the opinion is that of the site, as opposed to when DC brings it up in every damn thread. I think it is the moderators job to keep the site an open forum for all (non-political or religious) opinions, and appearing to sponsor or support a controversial one puts that in danger. I am not sure the best way to ensure that the individual's opinions do not come across as "official opinions", and everyone should be able to voice their opinion, even moderators, but I relate enough to think that may be what drove the comment.
this might be groundbreaking news to many of you -- TKP doesn't really hold any editorial positions as much as it is a publisher with contributors whose content reflects the opinions of those individuals (including Joe). There have been quite a few discussions over the years in terms of personal opinions vs official endorsements, etc, especially given that @thekeyplay is Joe's personal twitter account.
You should keep having those discussions. The twitter account is essentially the public face of the website, people absolutely see those as the official positions of the site.
I see it the other way, too. If the content produced only espouses all aspects of the program then that signals a lack of proper critique. I am fine with content creators and members being harsh or not. As stated below, this is a fan site rather than a news site. Until the program (football) heads in the right direction get used to the common criticism.
I agree. The program deserves criticism. I have no problem with it being aired, even though I condense many of the comment threads that go in to repetitive arguing over it. We need Fireman and DC to have the FireDC scale of happiness. I was just trying to point out that for those who have not been on the site for very long, it may seem that the opinions expressed by the owner, mods and writers are expected to be treated differently because of their positions, or that they should not be expressed, like in some neutral media. People could feel alienated if this is not well communicated, especially when the negative tone is more common because it is more deserved.
In my opinion, it is a fan site and a news site. TKP has press credentials and in non covid times there is normally someone photographing from the sidelines. When big things happen in the program, there are news articles created and shared on social media. That is literally what every other news outlet does (sports and non-sports media). They write news articles, post on their own site, and those articles are shared via social media to reach larger audiences. I am not saying you're wrong, but rather I think TKP is and can be both a fan site and a news site.
You're correct. I agree that is it is both a fan and a news site. However, when I see VT-related breaking news, the TKP is just a secondary source to get the information. I guess that is why I view the site as more fan-oriented. Nonetheless, I think the site serves an important role for the VT sports community more so than any other site.
It needs to be a bit of both. However, much of the criticism I have seen is based on the program not having a buzz in the air. But, being overly critical on a fan site can dampen whatever buzz there may be, contributing to the problem we all want to prevent. The way content is presented can also help with fanbase morale. We all love French but his critique of the corny film review left TKP believing he is a better offensive coordinator than Corny. That isn't helpful.
That is a one-off example though. How many times did you ever "out-smart" your professor? It doesn't make you smarter or professor material. I just joined the site and viewed French's commentary as a welcome surprise rather than his future talents as VT's new offensive coordinator.
So to be fair I dont think the job can be done well. You probably do it about as well as it can be done but it still isnt good. My complaint would be that it seems the moderators rarely step in until someone tired of the negativity chimes in. Negativity that borders on insanity goes unchecked but when someone responds to the near insanity by pointing out it's insane the conversation devolves and mods step in. It would be nice if the ridiculousness was called out earlier. Also, threads like the Chugger lawsuit should either shut down immediately or go on indefinitely. Snarky comments in commit threads about a kids offers should be negative plaid. We have places to bitch about recruiting. Threads for a specific kid and his commitment should only be to celebrate and congratulate that kid not complain about his offers or his use of VTU or to mock his a misspelling in his tweet. I personally know 2 commits over the last 2 years who were offended by discussion on TKP on their threads. I also think the banhammer has been used very suspiciously over the last couple years.
speaking personally, i try my best not to be an activist moderator because then it just becomes me as a moderator shaping the community to my own personal preference of opinions -- encouraging the voices i agree with and discouraging those i don't. TKP's position has always been that a diversity of opinions makes for better conversation -- unless someone is breaking rules, they're allowed to be vocal with their opinion
I appreciate that you take that approach. However, when the obnoxious overly negative ridiculousness is not moderated and the responses to that negativity create conversation that devolves into something that needs to be moderated it creates an environment where moderation is used as tool to protect the overly negative ridiculousness. I understand that the other option is for you to be more aggressive in your moderation which runs the risk of creating a community solely shaped by the mods. This is why I say it is an impossible job. At the end of the day you might be doing the best job possible and it still isn't good. I don't envy you. I also don't value what this community has become enough to pay for it.
Only way to stop the downward spirals is for people not to take the bait. But that's impossible to control and not the moderators job. I've certainly gotten into plenty of arguments here but the moderator isn't here to say I can't have a voice, rather to make sure I color within the lines. The alternative is that they stop ALL negativity because who and where do you draw that line ?
take your comments here. They are negative and certainly critical of the site and it's managers. Yet here they are freely voiced and updated Green from fellow community members. That to me is a sign of a healthy online community.
Sometimes, pessimism or optimism, when heard hundreds of times over every thread just becomes noise. I fully support any opinion whether positive of negative. Sometimes though, I wish certain repetitive comments could be avoided. That said, I recognize it is nearly impossible for a moderator to control that line, and I respect all the work you guys put into it.
This is a great point. If TKP or the mods do anything at all - I think they should address this issue. Either have positive posts/articles about commits that don't allow any comments at all. - OR - moderate the heck out of new commit articles/posts and remove all negative comments. There's no reason at all for TKP to accept or allow negative comments toward a kid that commits to VT (verbal or signs). People can then comment on recruiting in general or new commits on a separate post.
Another idea I had was to move all of the recruiting board, posts, and discussion behind the paywall.
Have you considered moving it behind a reputation wall instead of a pay wall? Seems like the goal is to moderate the community rather than let people pay to spread toxicity if they so choose.
What defines reputation? Turkey legs won't work as they are more of a measure of (valued or popular) activity.
The de-evolution of TKP into a Reddit-style, Fuente schadenfreude porn has made me reconsider my TKPC membership as well. What drew me to TKP was the community and I don't feel like the quality of discussion meets what it was 5+ years ago.
Breaking News:
Online sports forum is more fun when we have less to complain about
TKP "devolved" as hokie football did. Its easy to have fun discussion when we're good. Things will get heated when we're not. TKP didn't really devolve at all, our opinion of hokie football did. Happy fans = happy discussion (and more of desire to showcase what makes us so good in detail)
If you don't believe me, look at the BBall forums vs the football ones.
Disagree - when we were in the last years of the Beamer era (2012-15), I enjoyed being a part of this community way more than I do now.
That may be the case.
Alternatively, there may be some bias as we were good more recently at that time. Being mediocre year after year will wear down a person/fan base
This is valid, but I do think there are differences in how the program was viewed at large during that period and after the last three years. Beamer was always going to get more leeway in terms of discourse because he was the 30 year legend who revolutionized the program. I think in 12-15 we all knew Beamer was on his last legs, but felt that the VT job was very desirable and there was a lot to work with. There was some excitement and optimism about entering the post-Beamer era with new blood, potentially new style of play, perhaps the prospect of a Bud Foster take over was exciting for some, etc. I think with the recruiting dip, and the general perception of VT slipping nationally, that there is a lot more anxiety surrounding the future of the program than in the 12-15 period. I think that is reflected in the discourse in a way that we didn't see, or didn't see as much of, back then. That said, I don't want to speak for everyone as that may not be the case for you or others.
Aside from watching games, a lot of the enjoyment in sports comes from hope. Even at the end of Beamer's years, there was still hope; we still had a HOF coach and the best DC in the country. Also think back to Buzz's first year where we were a woeful 11-22. People were still excited about what was coming. Frankly, there is no more hope for this team. Last year was the year where seemingly everything would come together and we ended up having our worst season in decades. Until that hope returns, i.e. personnel changes are made, all VT football discussion forums will be overwhelmingly negative.
I feel like there was more optimism in general around the program though, that it was just a dip in form and we'd be turning it around next season. I'm extremely guilty of negativity, and I think a lot of it is because I've lost hope
We were promised an offense to go with our defense, and got a defense to go with our offense.
Just look out how DC is received these days. His comments have gone from blurred to green in two seasons.
DC is beyond community moderation. He's scored enough upvotes over the years to more than make up for his lesser moments. Sure, some get blurred, but there's no stopping the DC Train. Years of downvotes aren't going to stop the posting.
And occasionally, he does make a rational point. I don't have any problem with him being right.
I'm not a TKPC member but I 100% agree that the quality of discussion on TKP has devolved drastically over the past few years. My assumptions are A. Being bad at football gives us less fun things to talk about and B. The people we all enjoyed hearing comment maybe only do so on the threads behind paywall now. It seems like 90% of the comments on the regular peoples threads devolve into arguments over semantics and petty disagreements.
This is not to mention how its a shame that French and all the other writers spend hours making content that only 700 people get to see now. I bet there's thousands of Hokie fans out there that would enjoy his write ups and maybe pay him directly if he was to write on Substack.
I know that sounds like sour grapes and that I should just buy into the TKPC but I just haven't found the conversation on this sight enjoyable enough for me to want to pull the trigger. Bottom line is, there's a dearth of quality Hokies football content on the web and I wish TKP could find a way to fill that void for people again.
So I guess in summary, to me the value proposition of TKP seems to have changed from (1) Fun community that takes input from many and allows all to discuss something we love --> (2) Content producer (most of which is fantastic) with far less enjoyable community.
My guess is that most of us stumbled upon this place and stuck around due to #1 and are hesitant to start paying due to the site becoming #2.
I like your name.
Several people have said it and Joe is keenly aware of the issue. VT football being bad on the field is affecting the entire VT football ecosystem, including online VT football forums. Joe is running this site as a business and times are extra tough right now, in large part, due to VT's failings on the gridiron.
Ultimately it comes down to performance on the field. The entire VT football universe relies on success on the field. When that just isn't there everything else crumbles and that's what we're talking about here. Everyone is frustrated. Joe is frustrated. Everyone involved with this site (contributors, moderators, fans, etc.) is frustrated. Frustration can be ugly. Everyone has a different way of expressing/coping with their frustrations and not everyone agrees with or particularly likes those expressions or coping mechanisms. This is a community. A community where folks feel safe to express their frustrations even if those expressions are ugly. The strength of a community lies in how that community handles adversity. Good times are easy. Hard times test everyone. I love TKP and I have loved TKP ever since I first heard about it back in like 2011 or something. I know that my expressions of frustration put a lot of folks off. I'm sorry for that. But this is the only safe space I have to release my frustrations with the football program and it's important to me that I'm free and welcome to do that.
Bring back BAG!
What's your plan to fund that?
My unsolicited opinion, is that it's not a funding issue, but a perceived lack of quality news coming out of Blacksburg over the last five years, with respects to football.
One of the regular complaints is the lack of information coming out of practices and training camps that we used to get in abundance with the previous staff.
Couple that with closed scrimmages, no spring games, and the general communications blackout that was the year+ of COVID and things are coming to a head.
Just looking at the Turkey Leg leaderboard, I see very few TKP and TKPC members who were not here during the Beamer years (even the bad ones). Yet even then, we still got a bounty of news every year to drive interest. That well has dried up a bit and, as a result, people who got used to the previous way of doing things aren't happy with how they're done now and are venting their frustrations at every possible moment.
That's not how I understood the statement in the context of:
Ah, I was taking it more from the "dearth of Hokie football related content" comment.
Additionally, having successfully come up with enough room in the budget for a membership, I am proud to join TKPC. Yay, tax refund.
To add to this, it feels like there are two camps of VT football fans at this point 1) anti-Fuente people and 2) people who just want to try to enjoy football. The problem is people in group 1 say they can't be in group 2 because of the coach. But, in my opinion, it's mostly performative outrage.
I've seen people get upset we're recruiting too many 3* then get mad when those 3* get bumped up because now "Fuente might stick around." Or people getting upset in commitment threads because the person we signed isn't the person they wanted. Would you do have this reaction to any other situation? People have basically made their online persona out of being pessimistic jerks.
To be honest, those people might be right about the direction of the program and I might agree with a lot they have to say - but that doesn't mean I'm going to root for us to lose so a coach gets fired, or any of that other crazy shit.
You can have disagreements, you can be upset, and even angry - but try to keep it at least moderately fact-based. Not the same "lol, ok wow..." But at the end of the day, unless anyone on this site has a couple million they want to donate to the Hokie Club, there really isn't much we can control. We should TRY to enjoy these kids while they're here. Because they are 18-22 year-olds trying to make the best of it.
I just don't think it's that black and white. Yes, there are definitely anti-Fuente folks. There are also folks who just want to support the team and enjoy the football no matter what. But I think there are also quite a lot of folks in the middle somewhere. Myself included. I wouldn't group myself into the "anti-Fuente" camp because I'm not rooting for the team to lose to justify his dismissal. I don't think he's doing his job adequately. But I do want to enjoy watching VT football. It just hasn't been much fun for me in recent years. So I'm not really in either camp.
I may be hard on the coaches but I try to be supportive of the players. I recognize that they're going out there and trying their best and wearing the VT logo proudly. That's all we can really ask of them.
See, but this is a good response that I wish there were more of! You contextualized it, you disagreed, and you didn't call me an idiot over it. I want Fuente and the team to succeed because it makes me happy, not because I'm some weird Fu-bot with personal allegiance to the coach. If he turns things around this year, great!
I think I started reading TKP around the time I was in school which was 2012-2015. Certainly, those weren't the prime Beamer years but there was always a chin-held-high, optimism to it. Is the common noise refrain of "we're rolling" all that different than "they'll get after ya" - not really? Just how we perceive it. If this is what TKPC is, then yeah come July or August when things start rolling I'll definitely give $9.99 a month a try.
I do appreciate the response. Though it's interesting to me that you use the site enough to feel the heat of those discussions (you're clearly not a passer by), and have strong opinions, but you don't want to pay for it because of that.
To be honest, it's more that I got involved at the end of TKP as a more open system at a pretty low point in my life so I enjoyed the community AND the content. But now the content I want more of is behind a paywall, and the community isn't the same (although, that generally feels like the internet everywhere). However, once you start something, it's hard to give it up.
I've said before the hard part is the price point - it's more expensive than something like 247 which recently included Paramount+ as a perk, and it's more expensive than The Athletic which has Andy Bitter, local sportswriters for the other teams I like, and a host of national writers.
Here, you have a ton of good local content and high-level ACC breakdowns but at a big premium. I get that you, Joe the writer and web dev, can't exactly go public or do a merger like the others - but it's definitely a negative (even if it's not your fault.) I think I've said before, and others too, that a Substack or Patreon model would have done well, but this site is older than those.
But I also said a while ago that once I got a full-time job again I'd pay for TPKC, and I honestly forgot about that until this thread so I'm going in for the year.
TKP is like Mike's Grill (or any other local, non-corporate establishment). Everyone says they love it, but eventually they eat there less and less. Maybe their favorite waitress left, or they want to try the new chain that opened in town, or they had a bad burger and "won't be back for a while". Then when it goes out of business they are sad and wonder why.
TKP is never going to compete with any major media companies. Not only on the bundle, but the level of marketing they do to get you to buy in the first place. The charm of this place is unique, original, and Hokie. And they can't compete with that.
They can't compete with the user friendliness of your site either. You have created an excellent platform for all of us to use and we probably do not pat you on the back often enough for it.
Or maybe the site owner pulled someone's TKPC membership when all they wanted to do was vent a little.
/shrug
Yea in all honesty TKP is like my cigarette break at work but the cigarettes are free and im getting depressed rather than lung cancer. I also started TKP when it was more enjoyable so its engrained... if I started in the last 2-3 years it never would have stuck.
Thank you for talking rationally and honestly about your feelings/concerns about TKP. I'm sure that Joe and others are listening.
1. Stop smoking. I smoked for 33 years and have been battling stage 4 cancer for 3 years now. And mine was kidney cancer, not lung cancer, but from smoking nonetheless.
2. In regards to your second sentence, replace 'TKP' with 'Hokie fan', and i'm sure that wouldn't have stuck either.
Life is a roller coaster my friend. Highs and lows. Ride it out. Trust me.
Again, thank you for your rational and honest discussion.
First - godspeed in your fight against cancer.
Second - I don't smoke... TKP is my version of a cigarette break at work... rather than smoking I pull it up and spend 5-10 minutes scrolling a few times a day.
Third - You are probably right. If I had been a student in 2013-2017 rather than 2003-2007 I probably wouldn't care as much about VT football, or athletics in general as I do.
Thank you brother. I misunderstood the smoke break reference I guess. Anyway...thanks again for initiating a rational discourse.
But your account is 5 months old..
Mine is 4 years old but I've been lurking here since like 2013. The number of active posters is a fraction of the amount of people who read the site
I would prefer the annual $84 option relative to monthly $9.99, but I would be surprised if the monthly option isn't a draw to members who otherwise wouldn't join, especially based on the feedback that we've seen previously on a topic
I think locking in as many current VT students as you can is a smart play for Joe. Not many 18-22-year-olds are willing to part with $84 at one time. Giving them a monthly option is a way to get them hooked early.
I'm a current TKPC member and don't have any plans to change that, but from personal experience when there is a subscription I want to join, my wife never has a problem with the per month charge (even if it costs more in the end).
As KingJames mentioned above, the repetitive Fuente slamming in non-football forums is exhausting. I almost want to ask if mods (or community) could downvote this on off-topic/noise principles when it's out of hand, but I recognize it's a slippery slope.
One thing I did notice is after Joe specifically called out the "its year 0" comments as noise, they went down significantly. I think that helped a ton
I'm really glad that this was brought up by KingJames and yourself in this thread. This sounds like a phenomenon that is much more frequent than I realized. I spend most of my time on TKP checking the threads on the hot button topics (Football transfers, coaching news, recruiting news) more closely for moderation purposes, as these are the things most likely to get people riled up. It seems that I was wrong to assume the basketball threads, which I have not been checking as actively, were largely free of that kind of unrelated discourse.
I would jump on a monthly subscription today if it was offered. And not so that I could cancel during off season, but so that I can spread out the cash flow hit across the year. I have four teenage kids, live in a ridiculously high tax state, and am in the midst of funding college educations for my kids. My wife and I pool out incomes, and after required expenses I get about $180 a month to spend on things I want. Coming up with $84 doesn't seem like a big deal, but its almost half of what I limit myself to every month, and something always gets in the way, keeping me from being able to commit the money for a membership. Add to that trying to figure out how I will offset that annual cost next year makes me hesitant to commit.
Even though paying $120 is more than $84 a year, the ability to spread out those payments makes it work in my situation.
I was hoping to read a lot more of these responses to justify the amount of engineering to deliver the feature. Unfortunately, that wasn't the case.
I surfed the site for a year or so before $$ joining. A monthly fee probably would have shortened that courtship. And I agree with some of the comments above - it's not cool to say sarcastic things about recruits, their ratings, spelling errors, etc. It's been said many times. We all should downvote those comments and moderate ourselves. We're all on TKP together - that's what makes it a forum.
Would you also consider making the annual a rolling 365 days instead of jan1-jan1?
I think it already is. My renewal is 365 days from my last renewal which does not coincide with Jan 1st.
Same.
Like others have said, the annual membership is already a rolling 365 days.
According to https://www.thekeyplay.com/the-key-players-club
I mean, if you chose to sign up to TKPC on Jan 1st, there's not much Joe can do about that!
Gonna sign up on a leap day.
I have to chuckle a bit when I get dragged for negativity. I was extremely positive about the Fuente hire, and maintained that feeling for some time. Slowly, my position has evolved. Why? We have a significant sample size at this point to make educated assumptions/conclusions. I have always been honest in my assessments (ironically, that got me dragged often for being "too positive" at different points.)
This is brass tacks- if your goal as a fan is to watch a team consistently win the Coastal and contend for ACC titles annually, which is a perfectly reasonable goal, I do not think it will happen based on the film and other data points over the course of Fuente's tenure. If he turns it around, nobody will sing his praises more than me. But, what comes first, the chicken or the egg? That turnaround will require talent. Acquiring talent requires salesmanship and resources. Acquiring resources means a plan to get investors to invest and a sound pitch. And, once players are in the fold they have to be developed. I compliment this staff on how they have taken some undervalued players and turned them into NFL talent. But, the whole has not been good.
I act as an analyst. That is my analysis. If you talk to me at a baseball game or a picnic, I will say the same thing I write here. And even in the darkness that has clouded the last couple of seasons, I try to shine a light on good individual efforts even when the end result isn't good.
Thanks for the forum.
So for clarity I am not dragging you for negativity. I thought that your post about Corny's review was ridiculous.
To set the stage, I find it ironic that I would fall on the optimistic/positive side. I was not a fan of the Fuente hire. I thought we could do worse but I definitely thought we could do better. He has probably been about what I thought he would be, maybe a bit better because I didn't think he'd get a contract extension. In any case I've never been a huge fan of his as a coach. I've met him several times, he is a good guy, and I like him personally. I agree he is not going to get us where we want to go. Initially he recruited well but that was a mirage. He isn't developing talent well either. He is overly loyal to Corny who should have been gone a while ago. I don't expect him to turn it around either. I thought he should/would be fired last December. I'm on board with all of this.
I am not on board with nitpicking the effort to engage on social media. I get that you know a lot about football. I get that the Clemson defender was picked by Mitchell. I also get that the point wasn't to provide an in depth film review for folks like you (and me) who know football better than 99% of the fanbase and general population. I don't think it is productive to bitch and moan about access and social media presence and then bitch and moan when the coach neglects to mention a pick that was integral to the success of a play action pass play when the stated goal was to discuss the play action pass. You may be a good football analyst. You are not a good social media analyst. Your criticisms had nothing to do with what the goals of producing and sharing that video were. Your criticisms did dominate one of the only places VT fans go for football content for several days. That trickles down. That creates culture. First on TKP, then throughout the fanbase.
Honestly, the fact that you haven't been a voice of persistent negativity made it worse because it feels like another of the reasonable few is getting caught in the under current of ridiculous negativity. Don't get me wrong... feeling like things are in a negative place is one thing (and obviously correct and widely shared); however, spinning a cheap social media most that was only meant to engage fans for a few minutes into an indictment of Corny/Fuente/the football program is ridiculous.
They shouldn't have bullshitted it then. You're actually upset at us the fans that the staff gave us something that was either dishonest or worse, ignorant? You're gripe has no leg to stand on in either possibility.
Hey friend - what exactly was bullshit in that video? It was a review of a play action pass... the defender that got picked had all his momentum the wrong direction at the start of the play due to jumping the fake. The LB underneath had no chance to help out of his zone because of his hesitation. The protection was a little wonky but nothing was bullshit. Nothing was a lie... Corny didn't mention the pick, BFD. It wasn't a review of route concepts that generate traffic for defenders... it was a review of a play action pass. The entire thread was based around the faulty premise that Corny doesn't understand his own play designs based off a video that was created to give fans something to enjoy in the middle of the off season. The point wasn't to educate. It wasn't to replicate French's reviews. It was to make fans realize football is coming, check the schedule, and call friends to see which weekend they could make it to a game together. TKP turned it into an indictment of our coaching. Look there is plenty of reason to wish Corny was gone... this aint one... and to try to turn it into one is what I'll continue to refer to ridiculous negativity.
Points well made. Before anyone else jumps in to rebut, it's probably best not to continue litigating the merits of the conclusions of a french breakdown in a
metsmeta thread about tkpc billing mechanisms 😉pfft, don't bullshit me Gobbles!
This right here is good moderation... IMO
Are there actual mets threads that exist in the world? they would have to be extremely depressing...
arent you a raiders fan
Yes and Chucky and Rodgers are gonna take us back to the promise land this year baby!
I'm curious as to what the demographics on the site are like these days. Are we attracting new young engaging members? Or is it a bunch of us old folks who have been throwing shade at things since we were still in college. The only reason I don't spend as much time on here as I used to is I just can't. And I don't even have a wife ands kids.
So I guess what I am saying, or asking, is do young people still dig on sites such as this? Or is this type of platform becoming antiquated. The forum used to draw a crowd just for itself. I don't feel as if that happens these days.
Who you call in' old? GTFO my lawn!
28
29 here... been visiting since I was in school
30... been on here since beginning of senior year (2012)
56 here and a fan since my student years in the Bill Dooley era
9had the pleasure of watching Bruce Smith live for two years including the 23 sacks in 11 games season despite being double teamed most every down!)- -didn't miss a single game as a student when the ONLY sellout games were WVU and UVA(in a 50,000 seat stadium) and most games were lucky to hit 35-40000 fans.
Re the monthly option-think it is a great additional option (similar to being able to buy individual daily papers vs. a Sunday only subscription or a full annual subscription-saving incremental costs as you commit to longer timeframe.-I [personally would stay with my annual subscription.
Re moderation- as a moderator/ambassador on a community support website, it is indeed a thankless job that I think is done very well here in walking the line from being too heavy-handed vs. not strict enough- I DO like the idea below if technically feasible of "freezing sub-threads if they devolve too far
Re site content- I am a fairly avid reader of posts while being a less frequent poster (though I do upvote posts I agree with or like strongly. I am an eternal optimist (I don't currently wear glasses but if
I did they would definitely be tinted orange and maroon-which would make for a very psychedelic view but I digress!) so I tend to avoid vent threads but I also agree that recruit signing threads should remain positive and be moderated heavily to remove negative commentary- and similarly users should try not to discuss negative comparisons with other sports (i.e. negative football vs. positive basketball threads. but that is incumbent more on user actions vs. moderation.
Just my opinions of course.
I love Bruce Smith, and man I'd love to see someone put together a video of all those sacks; how in the world did he do that being double teamed every down? that's just amazing.
Got engaged the weekend of the VT-Duke game in October 1983. Had GREAT seats (East stands, single letters, South 40-yard line). Bruce had something like four sacks and ~15-20 hurries/knockdowns. There was one play in particular I remember, where I was sitting in perfect alignment with Bruce and Ben Bennett (Duke QB). The play ended with it looking like a video of a tornado going through a town. Bruce was double-teamed (I forget now if it was G/T or T/TE), both of whom ended up on their backs. Next, the RB tried to block him, with a similar result. Finally, the play ended with Bruce on top of Bennett, who somehow managed to throw the ball to the Duke sideline right before Bruce landed on top of him. Duke's coaches finally took pity on Bennett and pulled him in the fourth quarter. Afterwards, Bennett said something along the lines of "Bruce Smith and I got to know each other VERY well today. We talked about family, girlfriends, coaches, etc. We spent a LOT of time together."
Hey Joe, Long time Non - Subscriber here and I just wanted to let you know that I would subscribe if there was a monthly option. I dont pay for a year at 24/7 and this is as no offense to the people that do the work here, but I dont spend enough time here during the offseason to warrant paying for a year's subscription. This is just my personal preference and I'm sure that you will do a data analysis once this option is implemented to see whether the monthly option will be worth it. I will say that I appreciate you asking for input from everyone before making the change. As far as people talking about the negativity goes, meh..just me, but i dont get into a back and forth on the internet over things that we already know to be true. This program has taken a step back under Coach Fu's leadership.
Thanks again.
Am I the only person noticing the hypocrisy that a thread soliciting input on payment options has devolved into a vent thread about this website, instigated by the very people complaining about others venting?
Joe - if you can offer a monthly option, I think that would be sensible. Psychologically and financially, I think it is just easier to justify. Plus consumerism has effectively normalized monthly payment plans for literally everything; you might as well jump aboard the bandwagon.
General comment for Joe/French/mods - I think you do a great job with this website and I've enjoyed watching the content evolve over the years. Despite what some folks here are implying, the website has absolutely improved; that unfortunately has just been undermined by the program trending in the opposite direction. The people on here offering up excuses for not subscribing will always have an excuse for not subscribing. No use in catering to these folks. With that said, if you're trying to grow this website, I think there would be some value in soliciting demographic information. That would certainly help determine where you should focus year efforts.
Strange world we live in. My mind was in a pretzel trying to comprehend some of the complaints.
I will just say, for context, that all of my comments have either been solicited (ex: Joe in the OP, Gobble in asking for advice on moderating) or for the purpose of clarifying my earlier statements (ex: response to French). My issue isn't, and has never been, with people voicing frustrations about the football program or athletic department. My issue is, and will continue to be, when the negativity reaches the level of absurdity of thinking a dude on a website would be a better OC than Corny, trash talking kids who want to play for VT, and taking cheap shots when the conversation is focused elsewhere.
Other than being hyperbolic, when has anyone seriously suggested that French replace Corny? With all the crazy in the world, ragging on our terrible OC and suggesting French could do better is a great distraction.
The next part is not directed at the OP, but it's been bugging me more and more. For everyone that is fed up with football, remember they might be the money maker, but there are other VT sports. The softball team had a great game tonight in the NCAA regionals and has one of the best pitchers in the country, MY is shaking up college basketball, our wrestling team has been consistently great over the past few years, women's bball made the tourney for the first time since 2006, women's golf is making their 1st appearance in the NCAA championship, men's tennis made the NCAA championship, and I'm sure others that I don't follow as closely. The point is that the people that frequent this site certainly really enjoy VT football, but they also probably love the university as a whole. So if football is down, why not get into other sports? There aren't as many crowds, not as much money is made, there are not household names, etc, but watching Hokies win in any sport will never get old for me. I really appreciate all of the experts on TKP in their respective sports bringing them to our attention!
Sorry for the rant. I know football will always be king, but sometimes when something is going poorly it's okay to find joy in other areas. It's clear that bitching about the football program isn't going to change things, so why not try to embrace all that VT athletics has to offer rather than just bitching about football? Confession, I can bitch about Fuente with the best of them and I'm not saying it should never be done. I'm just tired of people complaining about complainers. To me that's the ultimate noise.
Bonus: a lot of the above sports mentioned are free to attend (or really cheap) and are now more easily watched with streaming services.
And to bring this back around to subscription models - if adding a monthly option allows for Joe to increase the funded coverage of the 'olympic' sports I'm all for it. The community does a great job with general awareness but it would be awesome to see an article or two on wrestling, softball, women's bball etc.
For the record- I would be a terrible coach. But I am happy to get paid large amounts of cash to watch film. 🤣
Thanks for all that you do Joe and staff. Nothing is perfect, and that includes people on a website/forum like this one. Everyone has an opinion and this is one place folks can voice that opinion.
I don't like all of it, but I certainly appreciate that it can all be voiced here. If I don't like a tangential conversation in a thread I simply move on. Certain posters have a certain credibility and so I simply skim until I get to what they have to say.
None of the "noise" has frustrated me or caused me to rethink my subscription. I will continue my annual renewal, but would be happy if a monthly helped you out Joe!
Can we start a fam thread for all the new people joining tkpc with the monthly option?
I'm good either way joe....not going anywhere. While yes some of the commentary goes off the rails I have no problem reading the positive/negative or just crazy comments. I check in every night before bed to read all
of the new posts and really enjoy the discussions about sports other than basketball and football. I'm a football first guy but TKP got me following wrestling, women's softball again, baseball, and even soccer. There will always be comments and thoughts that many find awful, plain disrespectful, and outrageous but that's the world today and honestly always has been but the platforms weren't available like this 25 years ago. I decided to join in 2018 after being a non subscriber for a few years because I wanted to see all of French's breakdowns and get the full scope of VT athletics. I have not been let down and enjoy the banter (most of the time) and will continue to subscribe either way...hope all of you are well and go Hokies!🦃🦃🦃
Leg. Thank you.
I think monthly is feasible for a lot of folks and follows the trend of a lot of subscription services who I'm sure dumped a lot of money into the psychological and financial incentive to charge monthly rates. I'd still pay yearly because it's not a burden for me but I don't think monthly would hurt!
Personally, I always thought the logic that was presented previously about monthly subscriptions was flawed. We were always told that it made budgeting impossible.
In general, I disagreed because:
It's like starting over with a new business, but actually having the luxury of already having income. Most new businesses build a business plan based on an expected income. They are not guaranteed that income. Things can be bumpy until you have data to track which either confirms or refutes the original expectations. Instead of being totally dependent on new information and income, you already have a stream of income from annual subscribers. Income from annual subscribers can be considered your baseline. You may have some annual subscribers convert to monthly, but the additional cost should make up for any who decide to skip a few months here and there. Anything on top of that known income is gravy.
That's not to say that you should remain stagnant. There should be some speculation about possible income, and services that can be provided resulting from that budget. Once you have a year or two under your belt with the new model, you can decide if the additional services were too much or too little.
I'm probably not going to change over from the annual subscription; I'll take savings where I can get them, if the surplus allows. But you should absolutely have a monthly option. You should also have an option for one time donations. You should never turn away money because it inconveniences your budget. Budget based on what you know. Budget based on what you're reasonably sure of. Hope for what you think might happen. Draw the line for services provided between budget and hope. Reevaluate each year based on historical trends, and move forward.
I would have joined sooner if I had the monthly option.
Has non-TKPC traffic slowed any since locking down more content or taking away some of the site features? If you do indeed go with a monthly option, I wonder if there are ways to reach some of the folks who may have backed off from the site. Maybe a marketing campaign with a blitz of review articles or something.
Yes - While I respect what you have here, I've never been able to say that TKP or TSL is worth the annual subscription when I can pay for the Athletic AND the Post for the same price. The value isn't there. Now come Sept when the games start, do I wish I could read French's stuff - absolutely. So I could see paying $30 bucks to get through football season.
Would you consider a graduated system?
$7 per month for access to content
$10 per month for access to content AND no ads
Or make access to everything except French's film reviews standard for TKPC and then have French's reviews be a premium feature for TKPC Premium members (similar pricing to above)
Just throwing out ideas here with no knowledge of how that affects the programming or how much work it would be for you to construct and/or manage that on the back end.
I'll stay on the annual plan, but I'd love to introduce the equivalent of 'Reddit gold' - I'd spend an extra $10 to award a great post, and extend/gift that user a month of TKPC.
Regarding the moderation challenges, sounds like you could fix them by implementing a feature that allows mods to freeze a 'subthread' - so when someone starts complaining about Fuente in a basketball thread, you can prevent other users from responding, hopefully stopping it from getting noisy/spiraling.
oooo I like this idea (again, not sure how much work that would be to do but sounds cool)
I know I've been guilty of contributing to some of those subthreads (sometimes I just can't help myself). I like this idea of mods having the ability to freeze those types of subthreads for the benefit of the community at large
Joe - Big Thanks from me. Not going anywhere. Yes our Football team is floundering and the conversations here reflect that. Does not mean I am not a Hokie fan, I can understand and agree with many frustrations. Need to keep up and that still occurs every single day. I just ignore the noise, I am an adult after all.
I would still continue with a year long subscription, just easier. But would fully support any plan that allows more subscriptions and the site to keep on trucking.
Thanks again.
Yee go for it👍
I'm of two minds on this (completely honest feedback, don't hate me):
Unfortunately, the strategy to put content behind a paywall in order to get people to pay for it works a lot better than asking folks to pay for content but giving it away for free.
Thanks for all the great feedback all. And thanks to those who just straight up decided to grab a TKPC membership. That was a welcomed surprise.