Editor's Note: If you remember these posts from during the season, these are my initial thoughts of what I just watched without the benefit of film. French will most likely have a film review completed by the end of the week. Until then, leave your thoughts below. --Joe
Like during the 2012 season, Logan Thomas was inconsistent Saturday afternoon. Overall, 16 for 29 (55%) for 214 yards is serviceable, but his 3 interceptions were all bad decisions. (Although Josh Stanford took the blame for both pick-sixes.) An offense that wants to play it close to the vest by running the ball, can't afford turnovers. On many plays, Thomas fixated on a single receiver instead of working through his progressions, and he threw a fast ball that should have been a touch pass to Holmes out of the backfield. After hearing and reading about how sharp LT3 looked in the second open scrimmage, it's disappointing to watch him struggle in front of fans looking for encouragement.
It wasn't all bad, he tossed some pretty balls too, the big gainer to Stanford comes to mind. I still believe Thomas has the physical tools, and I'm hopeful that as he continues to work on his own and with Loeffler this summer he will improve.
Considering the number of times Logan dropped back, and all the work the running game (supposedly) got throughout spring practice, this might have been an effort by Loeffler to get as much tape on Thomas in a game situation as possible for offseason evaluation. Before kickoff, I thought today would be an audition for the starting tailback job, but Holmes (7-24) and Edmunds (8-11) combined for just 15 carries. Instead, it seemed like quarterback workout.
It's hard to evaluate either tailback on so few carries. Edmunds' long run that was called back impressed the heck out of me, while Holmes' patience and strength between the tackles made me a believer of his again. I was pleasantly surprised to see Coleman split wide. J.C. might not be an every down tailback, but he is a playmaker, and I'd like Loeffler to figure out how to take advantage of that.
It was refreshing to see the tight ends apart of the passing game. McCray and Malleck finished 4-65 and 3-45, respectively. Loeffler should be able to use their athleticism to scheme some matchup problems down the road.
The starting defense is going to be pretty damn special. They limited white to 0 points and 87 yards. Additionally, some of the white team defenders had themselves a nice day. Ken Ekenam was able to pressure the maroon (orange) quarterbacks. Obviously Donovan Riley and Der'Woun Greene each had their pick six and I believe Green was the one who tracked Stanford down and prevented a touchdown. Devin Vandyke shot the gap and made a couple of tackles in maroon (orange)'s backfield. Deon Clarke led the white team with 9 total tackles. Brandon Facyson, who the coaches raved about all spring, had a nice pass breakup and a few tackles.
Frank Beamer pretty blunt about the offensive issues today: "We've got to get more consistent. You've heard that before." #Hokies— Mark Giannotto (@HokiesJournal) April 20, 2013
Beamer: “Today is kind of where we are right now. Good defense. Good kicking game. And an offense that’s gotta function better.” #Hokies— Mark Giannotto (@HokiesJournal) April 20, 2013
At least The Frankinator is honest. No one should have expected the offense to look crisp, it's a rebuilding process and the previous regime left a pile of rubble. The little things, like all the before the snap penalties and holds are what bothered me the most. It's all evident that offensive depth is something that needs to be improved on in the coming years.
The starting offensive line didn't look overpowering, but Grimes scheme doesn't require the o-line to blow defenders off the ball. French has thousands of words queued up on the zone scheme that'll run throughout the spring and summer, but basically the o-linemen are going to ride the defensive lineman where they want to go (east-west) while preventing penetration. When I rewatch the game I'm looking for helmets being in the right position, sharp first steps, cutback lanes, and picking off pursuing backers, none of which I can really comment on now.
Here are the post game interviews.
What did you guys think of the game?
Comments
I know everyone on this site is very against saying bad things about our current players, but Logan Thomas is really bad. Those throws weren't even close. I mean he just threw 3 interceptions against the backups, I know that our offense doesn't have many plays installed yet, but that was not fun to watch. Loeffler has a lot of work in front of him, maybe saying that the quarterback spot is up for grabs will light a fire under him and he'll improve faster. Give Leal a legitimate shot, it can't hurt.
I think it could hurt quite a bit to do that. It would destroy his confidence, and it would undermine his ability to lead the team. We need an offensive leader, not a power struggle right now.
Was that uncomfortable to watch?
yes.
Do I think it will improve?
yes.
I want to believe it will improve, but we've been saying that for a year. We thought he would improve last year and he didn't, and through a full Spring of practices he hasn't improved yet. Now, I can't say fully that he won't improve at all because maybe Loeffler is just getting comfortable with him so maybe that will help, but it's hard to keep saying he'll improve when it just hasn't happened.
The guys sitting behind us were saying the same thing, but I disagree. There is no, repeat NO, chance that Mark Leal starts over Thomas, and he shouldn't. I think we need to take all of this with a grain (or shovelful) of salt -- the sky is the limit with Logan, but we can't reasonably expect the instant change people thought we would get once these new coaches came in.
I'm not saying I expect him to instantly become great, but the improvement isn't there. His biggest problem has always been staring down one receiver and that hasn't changed in 2 years. Like Einstein said, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. We keep expecting different results with Logan and they're always the same.
And I wasn't saying Mark Leal should start, I was saying to open up the quarterback spot, maybe that's what he needs to improve.
You can't legitimately say the improvement isn't there, though. There is usually regression along the way as someone is improving. You saw one bad performance. Don't read too much into it.
Logan is our best chance at #beatbama so that's who i want on the field
He's the only proven QB we have, the only one that has won any games, and he's the only one to play in big games. I still think it's absurd to write him off.
From a personal standpoint I think the defense kind of knew what to expect. If Loeffler hasn't gotten most of his offense installed then the defense is going to know what's coming. There's a lot left to work on though and don't think Thomas isn't determined to make it better.
There's a big difference between Playing Bad, and being a bad player.
He had a bad game, against a defense that knew the entire playbook. All four pages of it.
I'm not even close to looking at Leal to start yet.
Or Jessop.
People are too enamored with what LT could be and not what he is more often than not. And those people will downvote the shit out of you if you dare mention the backup QB.
The one who went 3-8 for 60 yards?
Excuse my tardiness to the "Crown Leal starter" party.
I'm not saying Leal is the answer. I'm just saying the people still clinging to the belief that LT will be the number one pick need to wake up.
funny... I can't find anything resembling that in your initial comment.
Maybe because they were two independent thoughts?
I was basically saying we don't have any good QB's. I think Logan, for all his potential, is a mediocre QB right now. Until the consistency he demonstrated from the second half of '11 returns, if at all, we're in a bad position at the QB spot. Leal probably isn't starting QB material, but it's hard to say that definitively when you give him a whole 8 attempts in the spring game.
According to French, Whitfield showed up.
GET HIM AWAY FROM LT3!!!
I thought the lack of running plays was obvious. The defense knew exactly where the ball was going and flowed hard to the sideline. All those outside zones, and I can only remember one actually making it all the way to the corner.
Once the counters, sweeps, fly-sweeps, Iso's, Wham-block and more play-action plays are installed the running game will improve a lot. Still though, not enough push in the middle of the Oline. That may not improve this season. Might have to rely on out guessing the defense in order to get the running game going.
Logan Thomas... wasn't sharp. He's clearly the best choice for starter, IMO. But he needs to be sharper. Hopefully as the playbook expands, he'll have larger windows for easier throws.
I'll tell you what, that white team, they're a good ball club. They'll really get after ya.
this made me laugh out loud.
I'll have to re-watch the game on video to look a bit more closely, but my impression was that, despite the overall disappointing performance, Logan's mechanics looked a lot better. I didn't see any balls in the dirt or that floated away on him. Crisp throws and significantly improved mechanics. His timing and decision-making was perhaps to blame, but that's just my initial impression. I feel like the spring is only scratching the surface of what is to come, and it starts with mechanics. Once the whole offense is installed through summer camp, I think we will be better. I'm disappointed in the short-term because of how the game turned out, but I still see some hope here.
he threw off his back foot real bad on a 3rd down that flew 20 yds over stanford's head. other than that his mechanics were noticeably better but he was staring down receivers bad and forcing the ball. that first pick 6 was ridiculous. look i'm a huge logan guy and i've defended him passionately on here but dude just hasnt been all there mentally since the sugar bowl.
the offense has a long way to go in the 3 weeks of practice they have left till bama.
Can we all just pretend that this performace was planned so that we wouldn't give up any quality film for bama to study?
You saw through Frank's plan!
maybe bama could spot us 13 points
yeesh
but it wasnt all gloom and doom. the d played their nuts off, the punts were all pretty good, the above mentioned beamer swag, and it was a real nice day.
Until I see the film, I am doom and gloom. I don't care if Josh Stanford ran the damn hook and ladder with a triple axle and half a twist of lime. Both of those throws were into heavy traffic and should not have been thrown. On the first one down by the goal line, Logan's head was transfixed on Stanford. Instead of saying "hey, the primary route is going right into heavy traffic so someone else is open" and move to the second read, he waited until he was pressured and then threw a prayer (BEHIND) Stanford. Even on completions, Logan looks at the primary, elude rush, back. On the short 3rd down completion to Coleman that forced gin to go to the ground to catch the ball, Demetrius Knowles was Danny Coale vs Florida State open down the right sideline, but Logan stayed locked on Stanford and then panic threw to Coleman. On a 2nd quarter crossing route to Stanford, DJ Coles was wide open down the field on a wheel route that should have been the primary read, but Logan stayed on Stanford and completed it to him in traffic. Coles came to the sideline to one of the coaches and screamed "what do I have to do?" Later, Logan overthrew him on a wide open seam route and Shaw got the third pick.
Apparently, O'Cain was on to something. Logan looked good all spring (or appeared to) and then George Whitfield shows up and he goes in the crapper. I don't get it. I want the kid to be great. I believe he can be great. But, you have to find the open guy and get the ball there. And, when things are not going well, be a leader and get with your guys on the sideline. Logan isolated himself way too much when Leal was in for my pleasing (except for running down and congratulating Malleck on the TD.)
The performance today was a definite net negative, but I wonder if some of these problems arise from the time that Loeffler has obviously had to spend fixing Logan's mechanics? The problems all seem to be mental. Maybe Logan is still thinking too much about intrinsic things that should be natural, like his footwork or delivery? I just wonder if Loeffler is still overhauling Logan and they haven't gotten into enough of the mental aspect of the game.
I've been thinking the same thing. Maybe what you've got is a guy who's so focused on getting it right and working on correcting his mistakes then and there after be makes them that he appears disinterested. The mental mistakes are NOT surprising during an overhaul of the QB. Sad that it happened on recruit exposure/get the fanbase on board day.
I think that between now and Aug 31, repetitions get the mind to slow down and Logan works on the habits of reading the defense and going thru his progressions. The running game installs the rest of the package and we go out and hit an unsuspecting Alabama team in the mouth with a crisp, confident offensive showing and a viscous defense.
Maybe in my ideal world, we'll wear #allmarooneverything, too?
On the first INT, 4th and goal, LT was throwing to #80, Knowles, not #5 Stanford. The ball was actually placed decently well (left/short shoulder of the WR) for the coverage that was coming out of the endzone. It wouldn't have been an easy catch and probably would not have resulted in a TD, but still a completable throw. Problem was that D. Greene committed pass interference & basically pushed his way through Knowles to intercept the pass.
My main issue is that the RB was alone in space to the left and may have had a chance to break a tackle to get into the endzone vs a low-% pass into a crowded area. LT has to get a better sense of when he has time to check down and when he doesn't.
after watching another angle, I don't think LT even saw Greene coming up until he was in mid-throw... then he tried to laser it in there. His pass was a little ahead of where Knowles would've been if he didn't get chucked as LT was releasing the ball.
Also DJ Coles was open for the fade to to the endline/corner because Greene jumped Knowles' square drag. LT didn't recognize that either.
White team quarterback AJ McCarron finished the day completing 19 of 30 passes for 223 yards and one touchdown with two interceptions. McCarron led the White team to 335 total yards. The Crimson team totaled 285 total yards on the day. The teams combined for nine turnovers, including five by the Crimson team and four by the White team.
Spring Football - its ugly all over. Even in Sabanville
I'm just going to blame it on the orange uniforms and move on.
i'd rather be complaining about how we played in april than in september. defense looked good and im excited about a few of the guys who were out there on the white team, but the offense has a long, long way to go at really every position. logan, the line, the receivers and the backs were all either inconsistent or just bad. everything's new on that side of the ball, but i wish they looked a little further along than they did saturday.
hopefully that was the orange jerseys' farewell party like the bowl helmets were for the gobbler.
ps - rip gobbler
I agree with Deathrow and some of the others: Logan has major problems and I'm long past holding up hope that he'll "fix" it with consistency or mechanics or some other change. He actually had a lot of these problems in his good year in 2011, but they were covered up by the freak game against Miami and with the help of Danny Coale and Jarrett Boykin.
Two more things:
1. Everyone keeps saying bringing Leal into the competition would break Logan's confidence. I say what confidence? I'm wondering if its the reverse--he isn't working quite hard enough because he doesn't think anyone is breathing down his neck. At the least I think Loeffler should make noises about how he is not afraid to consider Leal if Logan doesn't fix his current problems.
2. If I hear another coach say "One thing about Logan is, you only need to correct him once" I'll scream. Does this mean no coach has ever told him not to stare down the primary? No one has ever told him to soften up his short yardage throws? Because he makes those mistakes OVER AND OVER AND OVER.
3. Maybe I'm just cranky but I think we're destined for a very predictable and frustrating 8-4 season with Logan running the show. I honestly think our ceiling is higher with Mark Leal.
Regarding Logan's confidence, watch the interview below.
I'm glad he's not dejected, seriously, I want him feeling good about himself, I just hope he can eliminate the errors from his game.
I'm actually not ok with that statement by him. I don't want a quarterback who can throw 2 pick sixes and another interception and say that he was happy with how he played. I want players who wants to be perfect, and anything less that perfection is unacceptable.
That is totally true and I think we need to consider the context of this game with his development. And there's no way to know that without being in tte qb meetings. It may be that he's been working on mechanics mechanics mechanics, so the decision making aspect that was so glaring isn't an issue of concern at this point in time.
I'm gradually coming to the conclusion that LT is a guy that feels like he has to defend himself / make excuses, which would indicate a significant lack of self confidence in contradiction of what he actually says.
Or it's a sign of a guy who's constantly being attacked by a largely ignorant fan base.
I think you mean "because he's constantly being attacked by a largely ignorant fan base". And that I would completely agree with. There is no "or" here...
The "or" was rather sarcastic, just sayin'.
I completely agree with #2. But let's all calm down here. This is spring ball (which is always full of issues) and under completely new coaches (which always create more issues in the short term). You'd obviously love to see Leal in there. Well, who knows, you may get your wish. Loeffler isn't O'Cain, and we don't know what he'll do if LT is looking like this during the season. But to call for that switch now is just ludicrous. Give Logan a chance to learn and prove himself under those new coaches. And have a little faith in those new coaches.
i remember people calling for tyrod to be pulled after the jmu loss and let logan start. maybe some more competition with leal would light a fire under him but i dont see leal realistically giving us a better chance to win. yes he was bad and i think he's clearly our best chance to be successful. i think with summer workouts and more time working in a new system will help him greatly. weve seen what he can do, im going to try and stay optimistic.
the spring game is a glorified scrimage. i wanted to see more emphasis on the run game. i felt like there was no emphasis on it and that got as frustrating as how crappy logan played
Does anyone know if there are clips of the game anywere yet?
here ya go
http://www.hokiesports.com/videos/?sport=football
The game is also up in its entirety on ESPN3, available for streaming from your nearest browser.
thanks to both of yall but the internet were im located is sub par so streaming anything in its entirety would take years its hard enough to look at the clips
Hokietapes has posted it to YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43R_D26mSDI
Receivers were open the whole day. The O-line gave plenty of time in pass protection. Logan's mechanics looked fine on almost all his throws. But Logan showed no ability to read a defense, and stared down his primary receiver on most plays. A QB with a $10 arm and a 50 cent head is what I took from that scrimmage.
BRIAN RODY FOR STARTING QB!!!!11!!1
His team won the Spring Game so he's clearly the best qb on the roster, right?
It was quite nice to see the players getting yelled at. Where I sat sobclose to the sidelines I saw Grimes chasing Gibson around screaming. I could tell a huge difference in their discipline.
Oh, and my dad asked Exum if the daycare was open and he said, laughing, "It's always open!"
With regard to the pick sixes, from my view in the NEZ:
1st: Logan telegraphed the living shit out of where that ball was going, and then forced a bad pass. Ultimately, I think it was a bad play call on 4th down, but the entire playbook is nowhere close to installed, so I can live with it. Also, had he not been wearing a yellow jersey, I'd like to think Logan runs that one in for 6.
2nd: Again, stared down the receiver, but Stanford was getting mugged. I don't know if the ref just couldn't find a flag, but that was an easy Defensive PI call to me.
Spring ball is supposed to be sloppy, but I don't know about that sloppy. 3 Int's in the first quarter, 2 for pick 6's? Performances like that has got to make you think.... what if?
What if Bama had 9 turnovers in their spring game? What if Logan has all of summer and fall camp to improve (as he already has in 15 practices)? Well, we'd probably have to wait until August to see what actually happens in the game.
Answer could be that talent is generally down all around this team, and the fact that virtually the entire 2010 recruiting class transferred or is buried on the depth chart.
As a die hard tech fan that game was hard to watch. I wonder how the big recruits feel after that showing.
Let's put things into perspective. I'm not just linking this as a way to say "Hey guys, our opening opponent also had a crappy spring game so the field is a little more level." I'm linking it to say spring football is supposed to be a little shitty. Alabama lost 3/5 offensive linemen and had an awful spring game and they weren't even installing a new offense.
I'm no offensive line expert, but remember what Grimes is working with here. He's not a miracle worker and he's spent the entire spring trying to figure out his best five linemen. We can't expect instant cohesiveness between 5 lineman who have played together very little. Lower your expectations a little.
Really though, could Whitfield be screwing Logan up? Let's play it safe and keep him away.
And our defensive front is going to hold it's own against Bama. Some would even venture to say the front seven and I wouldn't argue that. RVD and Ekanem looked great yesterday.
VT had a mobile QB for a very long time minus the Glennon experiment. "we all know how that went" Logan can run but he is more of a bulldozer vs. somebody like TT or MV who could move around behind the line and extend plays. I really wanted to see Carlis Parker during the spring game for his comparisons to Vick. Remember: Vick was Rs Freshman when he broke out. It's not impossible just improbable.
Uh oh.
Trey Edmonds FTW! I really didn't feel like watching Holmes get to the line of scrimmage and fall over anymore.
Actually, Holmes made a strong push to be in consideration for a spot on the depth chart. As a matter of fact, I had on my artificial depth chart that Edmunds and Holmes were co-#1 on the depth chart because they both have had strong spring showing in spite of being hammered by 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th team defenses all spring long. That said, with Holmes' arrest, that pretty much puts Holmes in the doghouse and deeper on the depth chart which means he will have to earn his spot, IF he gets the charge plead down and restored to the team. That's an effing big IF, mind you.
My concern right now is at what point do you entertain a qb battle if Logan continues to struggle?
We'll all be paying close attention this Summer and I'm concerned that reports will continue of Logan's struggles. I think there needs to be a point where Loeffler says "Hmm...I thought Logan would be somewhere else by now and just maybe announcing an open battle could help". Right now I think its clear Logan is our starter and we need to remain optimistic but I think there is a threshold that cannot be later then week 3 of the season if Logan's improved mechanics don't translate to actual decent mediocre play.
Here's my two cents regarding this whole Logan issue. In the two years I've seen Logan start, I've seen him have exactly ONE, maybe TWO good games in his entire career. 2011 Miami and 2012 Duke. That's it. People will point to the fact that his stats aren't that terrible, but for me, he just doesn't pass the eye test. That's why I was not that upset when speculation came out that Logan might go pro. I was fully prepared to not deal with the headache of watching him play QB again. I'm not saying by any measure that Leal is better RIGHT NOW, but I think the time has come to at least pay some consideration to Leal this season, especially if Logan continues to play poorly down the stretch. If #BEATBAMA does not go as planned, that is the outlier to this data set, because not many could beat that defense. In any case, Leal should not be the starter heading into #BEATBAMA, but I think he definitely warrants consideration. His arm strength may not be stellar, but Leal does go through progressions, and seems to be fairly accurate. A dink and dunk offense can work if Leal is put in, and I think it would actually help the passing game to do something like that, should the situation arise. I'm still going to be patient with Logan, but that patience is definitely wearing thin.
2011 Georgia Tech? He had another 5TD performance and trademarked 3rd and Logan. Or even the 2012 Sugar bowl, he showed that he could lead drives down the length of the field on top 10 defenses. I'm not saying that he is the savior or anything, but people are forgetting just how good he was in the second half of 2011. He had the highest passer rating in the country for the final 8 games of the season.
Let's not forget the 2011 Commonwealth Cup, either
Dude, don't try to engage the "anti-LTers" in conversation. They don't listen to reason. They just trust their gut.
I'll be honest, that game totally slipped my mind and it shouldn't have. However, my point is still being missed. Leal has to get more consideration than before, but by no means should he be given the starting job right now. Logan isn't consistently terrible, he's mostly adequate. Not good, not great. Adequate.
Exactly. I think that's what most of us saying that Leal deserves a shot are saying. It doesn't mean just give him the starting job and bench Logan. It means we want him to at least be given some consideration, maybe that small amount of consideration for the backup will make Logan work that much harder. And hey, maybe Leal surprises the coaches and turns out to be the better quarterback of the two. After all, Johnny Football wasn't the favorite to win the A&M quarterback battle last year and look at how that turned out for them.
Things I noticed:
I completely agree with the kickoff return issues. I was really frustrated with that since at least one botched return essentially cost the 1st team offense a possession. I see no reason to use anyone other than JCC or Knowles back there, possibly with the exception of Jarrett.
I wouldn't have a problem with a healthy Tony Gregory getting into the kick returner conversation, but I'm not sure if he'll want to return them this year given his injury history. Its looking like he'll be 3rd or 4th on the RB depth chart and won't be on the field with the offense as much this year, so it'll be a way for him to contribute and also help keep Knowles and Coleman's legs fresh.
His fumble on the return in the sugar bowl forces me to dislike that idea. Plus all of his other fumbles on about every fifth touch through his whole career. How about Tony Gregory stays on the sideline this year, the whole year.
I thought it was pretty amusing that Kendall Fuller was already in the line signing autographs, he is going to be a star hokie.