For the second week in a row, Kam Chancellor wasn't on the field for the Seahawks. I'm interested to see what everyone thinks of the ongoing situation. I love Kam Chancellor but at the end of the day the guy signed a contract and should live up to it.
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From what I have heard the big issue is that if he gets hurt he is screwed.
If that's the case I completely understand why he is holding out
In theory, I agree with the sentiment he signed a contract and should live up to it. In practice however, the "contracts" in the NFL are really just options for the teams who can cut ties at any point (dependent upon any built-in guarantees and things of that nature).
At the end of the day, I hate the system, but it was collectively bargained. As much as I may want to side with the player, his two options are suit up and play for the contract he's already agreed to or hold out and not make any money during this time while hoping you get a new contract. Once you start losing multiple game checks I don't know how much longer he's ready to hold out.
The seahawks being 0-2 certainly helps his case though
Very true
Without knowing all of the specifics, I know that he's got 3 years left on the contract. That just seems a bit early to me to be holding out.
Guaranteed money ends after this year. That's the part he's trying to amend.
I have taken heat from the same thought around here before, but 100% agree with you. They will pay him when they can. Kam holding out was in the team's budget this year. They tried to meet him halfway.
The problem is that a holdout is about the only leverage a player has, and if they wait until they need it (ie. they are hurt) then they can lose everything. Players have a short amount of time to make most of the money they'll make in their lifetime, and that timeframe can be cut short anytime due to the physical and demanding nature of their profession. If someone can use their leverage against their employer who will void your contract the moment it's not convenient to them, they have the right to do what's in their best interest (or at least what they believe is their best interest).
The team has zero obligation to live up to their side of the contract, we shouldn't expect the players who have their livelihood and health at risk to live up to their side if it's not in their best interest.
I definitely see where you and Kam are coming from, I just don't agree with it. At the end of the day the Owner and GM are running a business. Just like in corporate America, especially Virginia, a company can fire you without justification. In my opinion, that's like an injury or a release from the NFL.
And yet they haven't let him go. I'm pretty sure they could just say "fine, we're done dealing with you. Go find someone else to pay for you." But they know someone will and it will look bad on them. So this will just continue.
this is news to me...
Not VA, but I work as an engineer for a DOD contractor in North Carolina and freedom to terminate without cause is a company policy. So it wouldn't shock me.
I worked in NC for 4 years (private sector) and I was under the impression that it was illegal to terminate an employee without justification. That being said, I'm sure it's fairly easy for companies to fabricate justifiable reasons which would stand up in court if they really wanted to terminate someone, but they still had to justify it somehow.
NC is a right to work and employment at will state.
Virginia is a "right to work" state, which ironically means employers have a right to fire for whatever reason they'd like.
Edit: this should read At-Will Employment, not right-to-work.
I thought right to work had more to do with unions...quick google searches aren't helping me much but I'm not finding anything that says right-to-work states allow employers to terminate employees without some justification.
Doh, my mistake. That should be At-Will Employment. And not really passing a judgement either way as it has a lot of positives and negatives.
From the Virginia Department of Labor website:
after further research, I think I was hung up on the caveat that employers cannot fire for certain reasons, such as discrimination. In that regard, I think employers (like the one I worked for) were hesitant to pull the trigger on firing someone unless they had a damn good reason for fear of a lawsuit against them based on the idea the firing may have been motivated by one of the illegal reasons (like gender or age discrimination, to name a couple)
Eh I see your point to a degree. But IMO, a better comparison would be if you were to get injured while performing your job but instead of your employer giving you worker's comp, they let you go.
Exactly. So if you're ok with the company not respecting the agreement why are you not ok with the employee doing the same?
If we're letting companies off the hook because they're acting in their own best interest within the law, why are we holding the exact same behavior against the players?
Arizona is a "right to work" state as well (talk about an ironic name).
With that said, its a little different in that usually the standard employer/employee relationship does not involve the signing of a contract. You enter your job with the full knowledge that your company can terminate you at any time, BUT also that you can willingly terminate your service with them at any time as well.
The players don't have the right to just leave a team and sign with another at any time. And still a far cry from an injury or release in the NFL, n fact most players that are brought into training camp under even a 1 year deal and released due to injury receive an injury settlement of some kind that in effect terminates the contract.
It is kind of his fault for agreeing to the contract, he did sign it and should play. You have better luck having management give you a contract for making them happy then pissing them off.
I believe his rookie contract (from the latest Collective Bargaining Agreement) is/was also based on draft selection. So he was limited in his earning potential because of this contract, yes? Any roto-nerds or CPA/draft-geeks out there to substantiate my wild accusations?
edit: I'm way off... good read, below
That said; I absolutely love the man, as a person first and foremost, and (admittedly a close second) his fierce play on the field... he's a class act and simply making a business choice. A shame that it's detrimental to the organization and to any un-intentional (or even grossly-misunderstood) character hit he takes because of this situation. Hopefully, he's back on the field soon....
This. This is just two businesses trying to reach common ground. I don't think it's immoral to put yourself before your employer, especially in business where lifelong personal injury is extremely likely.
Helped my Packers to a dub last night, so good on him.
I don't know about you, but I got worried last night in the third quarter.
I was having nightmare flashbacks to the NFC championship. Wilson drives me up a WALL. But I was encouraged by the performance of our defense mostly containing Wilson and Lynch.
Good to see a handful of fellow Packers fans on here!
Also present!
As a kid I feel in love with the only publicly owned team who dare to play outdoor football in Wisconsin. I still think it is grossly unfair that the NFL will not put the superbowl north of the Mason Dixon line unless there is a dome for the most part.
New Jersey is below the Mason Dixon now?
About half the population of NJ lives in the suburbs of Charlotte, and the rest are in Florida.
That was why I added the line about for the most part. NJ got the SB because the stadium was brand new and it is 15 minutes from New York City.
Ahhh, I guess I stopped reading after the word "dome".
Was just waiting for us to find a way to lose. Haven't been able to get past the Seahawks since that stupid Fail Mary game.
I think NFL players should be held to the same standards of their contract as the teams are. Which is, in effect...none. Its such as interesting situation because is something really a "contract" when only 1 of the two sides can rip it up at a moments notice with zero repercussions. You would never write a contract like that in a standard business arrangement.
The management arn't the ones out there on the field risking life and limb. Look at Dez Bryant. I don't like the guy, but good for him for holding out and refusing to sign the franchise tag, because if he hadn't he would be screwed now with the broken foot that might cost him the entire year.
Seattle might have to pay the man when they realize their secondary is the weakest unit on their team right now (along with their OLine) and they find themselves 3 games into the season and 2 maybe 3 games back of the Cardinals who are pretty good (even though I can not stand the average Cards fan)
With that said, unfortunately for Kam I can't see what leverage he has here in the situation. It may be an ill advised holdout.
Why his holdout is totally understandable.
Seattle would be foolish to not pay him and have him rejoin their roster. As I've said before, my Giants (and really any team) would benefit immensely from his presence.
Good read. Pretty much what i was saying that an NFL contract isn't really a "contract" and fans need to educate themselves a bit more on maybe on the business side of the NFL.
I really really like his point about what would happen if players did not have the constant threat of lost wages over their head due to debilitating injury? They might actually start...gasp...taking their health into consideration instead of brushing it off to be on the field on Sunday. Right now half of em can't walk and the other half can't remember how to get home even if they can walk (an exaggeration, but the recent CTE studies were alarming to say the least) when they retire.
I have to admit I'm enjoying the fact the Hawks are 0-2 without Bam Bam. Pay up fools!!!
Kam only has guaranteed money for THIS season. After that if he was to get hurt or even hurt this year the team would only owe him that part that was guaranteed and no more. From what I have heard he was not even asking for a RAISE just to get the entire thing guaranteed.
For those tracking the W/L records for holdout gate 2015
Kam: 2-0
Seahawks: 0-2
People act like a contract is some sort of a solemn vow or a matter of honor. It is neither. A contract is nothing more than an agreement, and any contract worth a damn has clauses to cover what happens in the event that either party decides to stop honoring the agreement. There's typically a penalty, and then the two sides move on. The notion that Kam "should live up to" the contract he signed is like saying a person is morally obligated to stay with their mobile provider. If you want out of your mobile contract, you pay the early termination fee and get out of it. There's not a lot of morality involved in contractual agreements, because typically speaking, contracts are only necessary when trust is an issue. I'd say breaking a verbal promise is a far more unethical thing than breaking a written contract, again because written contracts typically have stipulations built in to cover what happens when one party of the contract stops following it.
Everybody should read this twice. Contracts are agreements with "what ifs". There's a reason why businesses have employment contracts written and verified by HR and legal experts. It is not a morally/ethically binding pledge. It's a legal commercial transaction with terms of agreement and disagreement written in. between two mutually exclusive parties.
One of my first bosses gave me one of the best pieces of advice I ever got about working for other people. Only one person looks after you, and that's you. A company's job is to make money in the way they deem necessary, and that includes working you to the bone if you allow it to happen. They are not your babysitter. If you feel you deserve more then speak up. if you feel something is not right then speak up. You can't depend on anyone else to do it for you. You are ultimately your responsibility.
If Kam or anyone feels the need to hold out, negotiate or bargain for what they believe they deserve than more power to them. There are consequences to that such as no pay, legal cases, being fired, etc but if you really believe it to be something you deserve than you need to look out for yourself.
You had a really great boss.
There are no penalties in contract law. When one decides to leave a contract, there are typically expectation, restitution, or reliance damages. In short, the non-breaching gets financially compensate for the value of the contract, subtract any work not yet done, and add any value lost due to the breach of contract.
Thus in Kam's case, Kam was supposed to provide a service (practice and play football games) for an annual contract price of ~$7M. He did perform in preseason practice and first two games that were valued at close to $ 2 million. Because the Seahawks had other people who could play Safety, they did not have to rely on Kam in legal contract terms, thus there was no value lost due to Kam's breach of contract.
In sum, $7M - $2M + 0 = $5M - No penalties.
I remember Kam Chancellor setting up the tone against Denver and helping Seattle win their first SB. Kam is the number strong-safety in the league, captain of the defense. He should get paid as one. But Seattle is too stubborn to admit that and pay the man.
I do think people are underestimating the value of an elite strong safety in the NFL game these days.
There are literally less than a handful of really good safeties, let alone elite. Safety seems to be one of the hardest spots to fill in the NFL, which is why you see guys like Ward and Byrd getting huge dollars (and in Byrd's case being a massive bust so far)
I love that Jarrett is making a name for himself in the meantime. DBU is still on the map!
Kam is getting severely underpaid compared to every other starter on the Seattle defense. He's the leader of the defense as well, so it makes no sense why they are undervaluing him.
Guaranteed salary:
$40,000,000 Richard Sherman
$25,725,000 Earl Thomas
$21,977,427 Bobby Wagner
$16,000,000 Cliff Avril
$16,000,000 Michael Bennett
$9,342,200 Bruce Irvin
$9,000,000 Brandon Mebane
$8,750,000 K.J. Wright
$7,825,000 <-- Kam Chancellor
Just based off of that, the guy should be in the $25mil/year area if not a little more than that. It is crazy to see how far down that list he is though
Those values shown are all the guaranteed money over the life of the contract. None of those guys make that much annually, but I agree with your sentiments. He's gotta be right up there with Earl (I think ahead of him) and not far behind sherm.
Edit: I meant to compare him to earl and Sherman based on annual salary. The actual guaranteed amount owed at any given time doesn't matter much to me as much as the guaranteed per year. A lot of those numbers are high as they're young guys who just got resigned a year or two ago.
Kam recently ended his holdout.
He'll be back to crushing souls directly, and all of the mad Seahawks fans will forget this ever happened.
So really all he accomplished was cost himself two game checks. Not sure why he started this if he wasn't going to see it through. Clearly an I'll advised decision to begin the holdout to begin with.
Two games Seattle lost, in which Kam's absence was ostensible. It will give him some leverage in the upcoming offseason.
It really sucks that he can't just walk away from the deal, like he should be able to do. I don't understand why the owners have such a choke hold on the player's union.
I wouldn't call it ill advised, it was a gamble. He made a point but at the end of the day accomplished nothing tangible with it (at least not yet). It did get people talking about the NFL's contracts more and stuff like this can change the system over time.
If he wants to work for the NFLPA post-retirement, it was a very good move.
We'll see what his fine is and whether/how this impacts his future negotiations, provided he stays healthy.
Doubt if we'll see him play for the Seahawks through any significant injury. Lesson learned...they truly don't care.
What a great statement to make, coming out of a holdout. He knows that he's important, and makes it clear
I hope he doesn't get injured.
guess 2 games was the magic number: http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/13722598/kam-chancellor-end-contract-h...
Brought up this old thread because I didn't know where to post, but Kam Chancellor is an absolute boss. Just stripped the ball out of Calvin Johnson's hands as he's about to score the go ahead td for the Lions, and it goes out the back of the endzone for a touchback to seal the win for the Seahawks. He's shown how valuable he is to that team since ending the holdout. Seahawks start 0-2 and now 2-0 with him back and playing lights out. Loved Michael Bennett screaming "Pay him!" as Kam is giving his post game interview. He's worth every dollar. Also enjoyed some brief Hokie camaraderie between Kam and Daryl Tapp after the game.
Now they're saying that because another Seahawk defender pushed the ball out the back of the endzone after Kam stripped it, it should've gone back to the Lions at the goal line. Missed call, but too late now. Awesome play by Kam still for the win.
I also saw a shot of Kam and Corey Fuller after the game too.
As for the play...something looked off when it happened, but I was also thinking of what happened with Sam Rogers and the muffed punt against ECU, which was also a touchback. But who can keep up with the rules of fumbled balls in the end zone? On the replays on Sportscenter, I was watching the back judge, who is staring at the play. The way he grabs his belt, it's like he wanted to throw the flag, but didn't. I think he had some inkling.
It was a weird game for me for fantasy purposes. I had Megatron and the Seattle defense, and was just barely over the point total of my opponent. I wasn't sure that the points I gained from Megatron scoring would counter the points lost from the Seattle defense for allowing points. Of course, the fumble lost was counted, but since Seattle didn't actually recover it, I didn't get the balance in the points.
Legion of ...
If only I could get fantasy points for how hard Bam Bam Kam hits. I'd never lose!
Regardless, his intangibles and intelligence make him a huge asset. Always great to see Hokies making plays at the next level!
http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/13819756/pay-michael-bennett-seattle-s...
not on youtube yet so i cant embed but I LOVED THIS
Even Teddy KGB agrees at this point...