I think the most important part is who the feature back is, McMillian is the man for the job, I'm not sure JCC or Trey would have performed to his level tonight
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CBD....I should down vote your turkey butt! I hate puns! I have a buddy that rattles them off just to get "that look"out of me!. I see though that there are a bunch of drunk pun loving mofoes here! Cheers!
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Take out McMillian's TD run and he averaged 3.7 YPC on 10 carries tonight.
1) That's still better than what Coleman's done this year;
2) When you block a run correctly for a guy like McMillian with his wheels he can take it to the house. You can tolerate a dud run here and there;
3) How in the hell did he only have 11 carries when VT was protecting a lead and Motley was limping?
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Yep- didn't get the same level of blocking that Rogers got on some of his carries. There were two or three well blocked plays where there was a ton of yardage. Two were Rogers runs where he bent back beautifully but did not have the burst to turn in a huge run. The other was a Motley inverted veer where the backside linebacker dragged him down because Motley bent the run back instead of staying right behind his blockers.
I don't know if McMillian is an elite back. However, he does have the best vision of any back on the roster and has a feel for reading the play. He gets up field and finishes runs. Glad for the kid. I still think he kind of got the shaft on an opportunity to play QB (may not have had the arm, but 1 day is a joke when you came to VT to be a QB.) I am thrilled that he is having success.
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French, how much did you love McMillian's touchdown run?
Looked like the line and tight ends blocked beautifully. Both Hodges and Malleck sealed their guys and then Wyatt pulls around with the finish to spring McMillian to the endzone.
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I have been really impressed with Rogers this year. He's gone from wildly overrated over the last two years to properly rated/maybe a smidge underrated.
With McMillian I seem to remember all the recruiting experts saying that he wasn't a QB and his future was at RB, so maybe it only took a day to figure that out. I don't really know. They also said Motley wouldn't be a QB and he's turning out alright there.
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It troubles me though if there is so much confidence in Mcmillian why are they trying to get Motley killed. Running him way to much. I am not confident they know what kind of a ground game they want nor who is going to lead it.
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I'm know our stable of TKP SMEs can elaborate on this. French has some great in-depth articles breaking it down. French writes some "five-star get after it, MAN" articles about our offense and defense. Absolute great reads.
It's part of the Lefty's scheme to produce tendencies in the oppossing defense and take advantage of opportunities given. It helps to have a solid OL too.
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They ran the veer aka Urban's option-reads. Motley correctly read the defense taking the RB/pitch man on basically all those plays. His job then is to get upfield, and go down before he gets killed. Not the play-calling or intent, just what the D gave us...
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Without all the jets, I don't know if that McMillian power run off the jet action would've been as successful. Haha jk... Maybe they only needed to run it 8 times before the counter worked that well.
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YUPPPP Stroman had the jet sweep fake and Gallo + Teller pulled backside to lead for Travon. Teller had a huge block 5 yards downfield which sprung Travon for the TD.
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You bring up a good point. I watched and said "man, Lefty finally got that to work."
Stroman did carry twice more on our last actual possession, though, and Rogers was the set back during that drive. I would have loved some I formation there.
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I'm sure it's a lot easier to show emotion like that when you're winning but I also noticed this tonight, especially in the 2nd half. Dadi was one of, if not the first one to celebrate McMillian's TD run and it seemed like half the team met Facyson in the endzone after the pass break-up in the 4th quarter. Really cool to see.
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Shocking... we settle on a primary runner, who just happens to be the one with the most YPC on the season, and suddenly we have an offense again.... shocking
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I hear you man. We all thirst for that golden, vaginal trophy, Freudian as it may be. Savor this one at least. May your beers be heavy, and your thoughts be light.
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Joe, I want to point out that we were wearing the only helmets which we've never lost a game wearing. That probably has waaaaay more to do with VT winning than some RB getting a bulk of the carries
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It was nice to see a single back in the game for once. That being said, there is still a lot of work that needs to be done. This team didn't suddenly morph into a serious running threat but I think it took a step in the right direction this evening. I just hope it's not a red herring. Hopefully this isn't a one-trick-pony type of outing and we see more consistent game planing around fewer backs moving forward.
NC State is not a great team. They're not a garbage team, but they're not a great team either. It's good that we stopped this slide and avoided a 3 game losing streak. Right now, half way through the season, we're still only a .500 team. I'm happy about this win, but we still have the most difficult opponents ahead of us on the schedule. It will be interesting to see if Brewer is ready for Miami. I have my doubts, but if he is, I think this offense will look completely different. At the very least, it should be fun.
Go Hokies
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So VT rushed for exactly 200 yards against NC State. That's the first time VT has rushed for at least 200 yards against an ACC opponent since November 1, 2012, when we played Miami.
That was also our third 200+ rushing yard game this season, matching our total for all of last season.
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The careful observer will have noticed that when we lined up in the victory formation to end the game, Motley and the line pushed forward to take the knee instead of dropping back a yard. Beamer knew he had 200 rushing yards and wanted to keep it that way.
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I still don't get this joke, but because I know it's the only response I'm going to get, I've refused to ask anyone on this site how to pronounce Der'Woun.
Also, I really do like Mack Brown. His pronunciation of Drew's last name had me laughing on more than one occasion.
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I didn't watch the game, only saw the Hokie highlights. The one huge thing, besides Ford and Motley finally getting on the same page, was on the Alexander interception, watch AM. For one of the first times, I really saw him play it perfectly. He understood he didn't have to make the play, just prevent one from happening.
Oh yeah #34 finally got the rock eh?
Good win guys
Edit: bazinga in the 200. I like that style a lot. Gaaa I can't wait to watch the replay
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This is the picture of the night. Hyped up defensive end, running back feeling the breeze through his hair, faceless friend of mine with his hands held high, smiles all around.
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Mcmillian still doesn't look like a complete back to me, but I hope he continues to improve because the dude is a playmaker. I would still like to see some successful runs inside, but it just may not be a reality this year.
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The first run after NCSU went for it in 4th down against Facydon, McMillian is met in the hole and just cowered to the ground. He's got a long way to go to be a feature back, but at this point, he runs with as much power as anyone else and has breakaway speed.
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well...to be fair, we'll never know whether it would have worked..but I'm pretty sure it's been generally accepted by a majority of football teams that to have success on the ground you stick with 1 or 2 guys and ride them consistently (meaning, not substituting every other play) for the entire game. That seems to be the tried and true formula.
As I always say, "if it ain't broke, don't break it"
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You're right. I missed the part about not rotating between plays.
The pros do it on occasion (the Saints won a Super Bowl rotating three backs constantly), but I don't know of a time this has been used successfully at VT (although I think its use might be overstated with this yrs team...IIRC, it's mostly been used when VT had given up on the RBs running the ball. There have been fairly few series this year with carries by different running backs).
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I want to believe that after frank said there would be change, he sat Shane down and said "McMillian is starting against NCSU. And he's staying in. Stop rotating backs out every damn play."
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Fer real. I want to see McMillian and Rogers line up every play. I feel like that combo gives us anything we'd want on any given play. Explosive player? Check. Hard nosed bruiser? Check. Blocker? Check. Passing option? Double check.
Maybe not two blockers, but definitely one blocker and a dump pass if necessary to salvage a play.
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I think he did too. (or would like to think that.)
But that is the role of the Chief Whistle.
I watched a miked-up Bobby Bowden on the sidelines, and at certain points, he would issue directives to his coordinators like 'they're getting too much pressure on our QB, or their running back is starting to get some yards on us.....stop it.'
And then he would let the coordinators do their job and adjust based on his input. And they did.
Now, obviously I don't know the dynamics at VT, but I think CFB has been more of a hands-off guy, trust in your hires kinda guy, and that he shortened up the reins this week and issued some specific directives to his staff.
And they worked.
Not to come off as a complete Beamer apologist, but the man can coach, and hasn't won all those games by being lucky. It has been frustrating to watch VT football with the head man, IMO, giving too much ownership to his staff at times. It seems when the heat was on after last week, he righted the ship-he has the knowledge and capability.
But, what about doing that every week? It's your team coach.
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11/23 carries (48%) by non-QB and anyone not named AJ Hughes is as close as this staff is to designating a feature back. The carousel was uninstalled entirely.
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No, a feature back is the guy who carries the ball when everybody knows he's going to carry it and still gets yardage. Even when VT has split carries among 4 people, the 3rd (and sometimes the 4th runner) was getting more carries than that. Right now, McMillian is a guy who thrives mostly on the element of surprise (11 carries) and getting to the edge on misdirection. And there's nothing wrong with that. Use it to your advantage.
But let's withhold judgement for 3 or 4 games as whether he's a "feature back". My guess is that folks will be asking what the problem is with the run game if/when he gets much more than 11 carries.
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Think it's fair to say McMillian was the feature back vs NC State
if Travon gets 11+ carries from here on out then yeah I'd say he's a feature back. For VT's sake I hope he does because he's the best back we have that is healthy.
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Even in today's pass heavy offenses, there are well over 100 RBs in D1 averaging 11 carries or more per game on the season. One carry per possession in one game is only a feature back if you have O&M glasses on.
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Comparing raw numbers is apples and oranges. McMillian was the only VT RB to take a handoff in that game. That's a feature/primary/first-string/whatever back. What would it take, in your mind, to define a feature back for VT?
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Huh? So Rogers isn't a RB when he's the lone back in the back field? Stroman isn't RB on those jet sweeps, but McMillian was?
The only systemic difference between the Pitt game and the NC State was the names and that some of the QB carries were distributed to the RBs. Take 8 of Motley's carries in the Pitt game and give 'em to the RBs in the NCSt game. There's not much difference.
It is definitely still not a feature back system no matter how much people want to convince themselves it is.
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What I'm trying to get at is how you define a feature back. You keep saying that 11 carries doesn't define a feature back; numbers in isolation mean nothing. If an RB for Team X gets 11 carries, and the team only rushes 11 times, that's not a feature back? Disagree. If an RB for Team Y rushes 11 times out of 40, I agree that's not a feature back. But a rigid adherence to a number means nothing. McMillian was clearly the primary RB against NC State. He was in for entire series and drives at a time. That's a big change from the previous VT practice of swapping guys out every play. It's a move in the right direction and a signal to most of us that the coaching staff is now willing to move ahead with one guy until he can't do it. Otherwise we would have seen JC and Trey...at all.
Rogers got carries, sure. But you didn't like my 48% argument above, so what's the threshold for you? We don't have a guy like Leonard Fournette in the backfield, so we work with what we've got - a bunch of guys with some talent who will occasionally break a long run. McMillian was the best chance of doing that against NC State and he did. So the coaches went with him.
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Of course not. But I appreciate you helping support my opinion. Thanks.
Fournette got 67 (45%) of total 149 carries (22.3 per game). #2 guy got 30 carries (20%; 10.0 per game). And Fournette didn't even play most of the 2nd half of one of those games.
Getting almost half the carries in college football (where QBs run more and sacks count as runs) and more than twice as many carries per game as the number 2 guy (and more than twice as many as VT's new "feature back") is exactly what I would call a feature back.
When a healthy Fournette gets 11 carries in a competitive game, call me and let me know who's replacing Les Miles.
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And further more to VTGM's point, what is your connection to the RB rotation? What skin do you have in this to be so adamant that we give carries to all of our players, or don't give a majority of carries to one guy? I just want to know why you're defending what you're defending.
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I'm not defending anything. I just 1) don't believe running back rotations (or feature back systems for that matter) are necessarily good or bad...but rather an excuse for people to grab onto and 2) I don't believe that VT has gone to a feature back system, but has mostly just changed the names.
I just don't understand how when, for instance, JCC and Edmunds get (12+11) 23 of the 44 carries (52.3%) vs OSU that's RB by committee but when McMillian & Rogers get (11+8) 19 of 36 carries vs NC State (52.7%) vs. NC State, that's a feature back system.
Or when the JCC & McMillian get (6+5) 11 of 15 non-QB touches vs Pitt (73%) that's RB by committee, but 19 of 23 (83%) vs NC St is a feature back system.
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how many consecutive carries did JCC and Edmunds each have?
How many consecutive carries did McMillian and Rogers each have?
The key that everyone seems to be missing isn't just the distribution of the carries...it's HOW they're distributed. Feeding a single back for an entire series has proven to be much more effective than rotating backs in and out every other play. Our EX RB coach, Billy Hite, has even been quoted saying he prefers to leave a single back in the game for an entire drive so they can get into a rhythm. He believes it helps them to see the field better and get a sense for what the defense is trying to do. I, for one, agree wholeheartedly with that philosophy.
I also don't think, when you're trying to evaluate what you've got, that running several different backs on successive plays does anything to show you who can do what. The running game in football relies on more than just the RB. You have to operate behind an OL susceptible to missing assignments and you're facing a defense that will give you different looks on different down/distances. The best measuring stick, IMO, is to run the same back for an entire series to get the best results. If you repeat this again for the second back on the next series, you'll get a better analysis of what each guy can do. The other variables, like OL blocking and defensive play call, will normalize over the course of an entire series. Otherwise, if you play RB1 for 2 plays and then pull him out for RB2 you're losing that normalization because the OL could have missed an assignment on 50% of RB1s carries resulting in a loss of yards. RB2 might get 2 carries behind an OL which doesn't make a mistake. So now you have a huge discrepancy in the data set you're using to evaluate each back.
If you go even further and argue that each RB only plays in certain situations/play calls/personnel groupings, you're skewing the data even more. Maybe certain play calls are executed to a higher level than others by the other position groups which could either help or hinder the back. Something that is out of the RBs control. It just doesn't make sense to me to run 3 different RBs on the same set of downs. That's what we were doing. If you want to run 3 different RBs that's fine. Just do it in a way that makes sense.
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^THIS^
This has been my point all season long. People wonder why JC hasn't done this year what he did at the end of last year. It's because he gets one carry and then gets subbed off for Trey or Travon or Sam. They HAVE to get into a rhythm.
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You (and others) may have been saying it, but it's still mostly not true.
Go back and look at the play by plays for the season. Maybe a handful or so times did more than one non-QB get carries in a series (and when it did happen it was usually the jet sweep). And in the OSU, Furman, & Purdue games there were more instances of consecutive carries by non-QBs than the NC St game.
The real problem is that in the ECU & Pitt games it was pretty much just Motley, Motley, Motley, Motley. Did it really matter who was lined up in the backfield?
People seem to be forgetting just how much good offensive line play can make virtually any system work (and look). And conversely how good defense can make any offensive system look bad.
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Huh? How did you glean that from anything I wrote?
Nevertheless, I do believe that the offensive line run blocking wasn't particularly good overall last Friday (and not as good as it was late last season). A couple of very nicely blocked runs does not make a good performance overall. In general, the OL got little push vs NC State. However, the pass blocking was very good overall -- the best it's been all season.
As to whether that's why JCC had more success late last season, yes I do think OL blocking was a big factor. But I'm not sure what that has to do with anything...
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Please provide your proof that "feeding a single back for an entire series has proven to be much more effective than rotating backs in and out every other play." Pro teams do this all the time based on personnel and down & distance.
Other than "run the clock" time late in the game when McMillian, then Rogers, then Stroman each got consecutive carries after the other - McMillian got consecutive carries once (4 straight carries in 2nd qtr) and Rogers got consecutive carries once. I'm not sure what conclusion you can draw from that.
I do recall that people complained too when Hite rotated Evans and Williams and Wilson each a series, so if anything I suppose it proves that fans will second guess just about anything.
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McMillian got consecutive carries once (4 straight carries in 2nd qtr)
we also scored 21 straight points in the 2nd qtr. Coincidence?
You accuse me of not using evidence in supporting my statement "feeding a single back for an entire series has proven to be much more effective than rotating backs in and out every other play" and then you immediately follow with a similar statement to the contrary without any supporting evidence. Interesting tactic.
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I would say that none of the teams with a good RB do this. Jamal Charles, Le'Veon Bell, Todd Gurley, Adrian Peterson, Matt Forte, etc. The good RBs stay on the field for whole drives at a time unless they ask to be subbed out.
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Pro teams do this all the time based on personnel and down & distance.
VT rotates 3-4 backs based on feelings and a you participated award. Most NFL teams rotate 2 backs and 1 of those is normally your 3rd down or pass catching back.
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The article references a study from their 2007 book. It's not on the internet, but the data showed that teams that rotated their backs on consecutive carries showed no dropoff in yardage but teams that just pounded one back saw a decline in effectiveness.
You probably can't juggle 4 RBs. But you can certainly rotate two of them, which is what VT did against NC State (McMillian and Rogers). People talked about Coleman being good because he got into a rhythm last year but he ran well at the beginning of the game in his first few carries. Did he get into a rhythm in pre-game warmups? It's most likely not a real thing.
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Lets take out all the QB and WR carries because regardless Motley and Stroman will get 3+ carries each a game and we're looking to see if we have a RB Committee not how many times a skill position player touches the ball.
JCC and Edmunds get (12+11) 23 of the 44 carries (52.3%) vs OSU
Travon got 6 carries Sam got 3. so that's 3 RB's and 1 H back that got carries that's a committee
JCC & McMillian get (6+5) 11 of 15 non-QB touches vs Pitt (73%)
Trey + Sam had 2 carries each. so that's 3 RB's and 1 H back that got carries that's a committee
McMillian & Rogers get (11+8) 19 of 36 carries vs NC State (52.7%)
Trey + JC got 0 carries, so that's 1 RB and 1 H back that got carries that's an RB1 and an RB2
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So basically the difference between a "feature back" system and a "RB by committee" system is whether the #3 & #4 backs get no carries vs 5% of the carries? So the LSU system above must be a "RB by committee" system? The 11/8/4 carries distribution in the NC St game is still pretty close to the classic 40/40/20 "RB by Committee". Certainly closer than what, say, LSU is employing.
The bottom line is that, IMO, biggest change vs NC State was the names, not the system (although you could argue that not rotating guys within series was also a change). That JCC and Edmunds didn't get carries could have been just as much coincidence as overall plan going forward (and IMO more coincidence). I suspect we haven't seen the last of at least one of those two getting more than nominal carries.
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I have no issue with Trey JC Travon or Sam getting carries.. I do however have an issue with all 4 of them getting multiple touches in a game that is not a blowout. There is 0 reason why 3 rbs and an h back should all get carries unless the school is GT.
Show me how many teams use 3 rbs and a fb to run the ball? .
The bottom line is that, IMO, biggest change vs NC State was the names, not the system
Lefty and friends created a game plan to get McMillian and Sam in space so the system changed a little bit in terms of who should get the ball. how many times have we seen that counter pitch or the fake sweep with the 2 pulling linemen lead the way?
Lets all hope the discussion was play 1-2 RBs that's it.. its big boy ball and not everyone will get carries.
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I agree that the game plan was probably to exploit NC St on the edge and with some misdirection. But that doesn't mean there was some big systemic change. It was more a tactical change and the best way to accomplish that would be to also use McMillian up the gut a handful of times to set it up. But that may not (and probably won't) be the best approach in other match-ups. That they only used McMillian and Rogers less than 20 carries combined implies that IMO.
VT won conference titles in 2004 and 2010 with 3 backs + the qb EACH getting more than 7 carries a game (2004) and more than 10 carries a game (2010).
So your presumption that a 1-2 system is best is...a presumption. It depends on your personnel and your match-ups. I always hope VT uses what is best for the situation at hand.
One thing I'm almost certain will not happen is that the formula for the NC St game will be used exclusively for the remainder of the season. VT will have a hard time winning with just an 11/8 carries tandem and if/when Brewer comes back, it changes the dynamic considerably.
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VT will have a hard time winning with just an 11/8 carries tandem and if/when Brewer comes back, it changes the dynamic considerably.
Obviously the game plan changes with Brewer in at QB. The number should look more like 18/10/3-5 for the RB's but there has to be a clear RB1 that stays in for a whole drive or two. Hopefully they have figured that out now and Travon and Sam will get more carries while JC and Trey fight for the remaining 3-5 carries.
The games where we have 3 RB's and a H back each get 6-8 carries has got to stop and I think we all can agree on that.
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Preface, this all personal opinion, and as such, isn't an argument.
I know I'm the weird one, but I don't mind a correctly managed carousel. Shane clearly couldn't do that. For a RB, it's a balance of consecutive plays, with carries on some of them. They don't do well if they get alot (approximately 20?) in a row, but they have to have some in a row (approximately 10). The idea is, on a blocking play for a RB, he'll either block, or escape into the flat by a screen/dump/wheel route. On these plays, the RB isn't working as hard, and gets a slight breather. He should carry 3 or 4 times before he needs a sideline break if he's carrying an average of every-other or every-third play.
Shane chose to rotate after every play, or after every carry, denying the RB rhythm (as we could all see) in a failed attempt to keep them fresh. He should have been rotating every 10 or 12 plays, or, we'll say, 4 carries. That way, the RB's stay fresh, and get a rhythm. The stats on RB carries are clear, they need about 12 plays or 4 carries.
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Should also be mentioned that NC State has now given up 200+ yards rushing in its first two games this season against P5 teams. They may not be very good against the run.
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Comments
McMillian and Rogers....The new Untouchables
agreed
Not sure I would label Rogers with the "Untouchables" brand... I think its more like nobody on the D wants to be the one to have to bring him down.
LOVE YOU JOE. DEAR GOD ITS ABOUT FUCKING TIME. I tried with stats but your charts and graphs absolutely killed it today.
#FEATUREBACK
lols
Yous twos cracks me up.
Sup, he'll take a stab at this
Joe's all
I think the most important part is who the feature back is, McMillian is the man for the job, I'm not sure JCC or Trey would have performed to his level tonight
I think we were all on the same page here.
Bout damn time Shane.
On a scale of one to Keith Richards, how drunk are you right now?
Sharlie Cheen
CC Sabathia drunk
I LOL'd
Steve Sarkisian drunk?
It helps when the back getting the bulk of carries is the best back on the roster.
Take me to church! Hallelujah!
(I did argue he was the best back.)
I did too in March. Sorry April
http://www.thekeyplay.com/content/2015/april/14/jc-coleman-talks-espn-rb...
I think we all noticed that by the Purdue game. Well, everyone but the coaching staff.
This 1000 times!
It's as though Frank went up to the top of Brush mountain this week and God said..
I. Rush #45
II. Rush # 34
*No more commandments requires*
CFB elevated Travon McMillian to the top of Mount Rush-More....
CBD....I should down vote your turkey butt! I hate puns! I have a buddy that rattles them off just to get "that look"out of me!. I see though that there are a bunch of drunk pun loving mofoes here! Cheers!
III. Throw the ball to #1
Take out McMillian's TD run and he averaged 3.7 YPC on 10 carries tonight.
1) That's still better than what Coleman's done this year;
2) When you block a run correctly for a guy like McMillian with his wheels he can take it to the house. You can tolerate a dud run here and there;
3) How in the hell did he only have 11 carries when VT was protecting a lead and Motley was limping?
Yep- didn't get the same level of blocking that Rogers got on some of his carries. There were two or three well blocked plays where there was a ton of yardage. Two were Rogers runs where he bent back beautifully but did not have the burst to turn in a huge run. The other was a Motley inverted veer where the backside linebacker dragged him down because Motley bent the run back instead of staying right behind his blockers.
I don't know if McMillian is an elite back. However, he does have the best vision of any back on the roster and has a feel for reading the play. He gets up field and finishes runs. Glad for the kid. I still think he kind of got the shaft on an opportunity to play QB (may not have had the arm, but 1 day is a joke when you came to VT to be a QB.) I am thrilled that he is having success.
French, how much did you love McMillian's touchdown run?
Looked like the line and tight ends blocked beautifully. Both Hodges and Malleck sealed their guys and then Wyatt pulls around with the finish to spring McMillian to the endzone.
Eric Gallo sprung him.
Depending which point we consider him sprung there was a "key" Teller pancake in this play~
Soooooo...
QB ---> RB = success
Just like
QB ---> TE = success
We should recruit more QBs...
*ducks*
just kidding...
don't forget
QB ---> SS = success !!
QB ---> WR = not a success (Joel Caleb)
Marcus Davis?
I'd rather have a wide receiver willing to block...
I have been really impressed with Rogers this year. He's gone from wildly overrated over the last two years to properly rated/maybe a smidge underrated.
With McMillian I seem to remember all the recruiting experts saying that he wasn't a QB and his future was at RB, so maybe it only took a day to figure that out. I don't really know. They also said Motley wouldn't be a QB and he's turning out alright there.
When was a walk-on FB ever wildly overrated?
All the success he has had comes from hard work and grit
It troubles me though if there is so much confidence in Mcmillian why are they trying to get Motley killed. Running him way to much. I am not confident they know what kind of a ground game they want nor who is going to lead it.
Lefty trusts Motley to run an offense similar to LT in 2013. When Brewer returns, you will see a more tailback-oriented running game, I'd wager.
Welcome to TKP @Da-Man77
I'm know our stable of TKP SMEs can elaborate on this. French has some great in-depth articles breaking it down. French writes some "five-star get after it, MAN" articles about our offense and defense. Absolute great reads.
It's part of the Lefty's scheme to produce tendencies in the oppossing defense and take advantage of opportunities given. It helps to have a solid OL too.
They ran the veer aka Urban's option-reads. Motley correctly read the defense taking the RB/pitch man on basically all those plays. His job then is to get upfield, and go down before he gets killed. Not the play-calling or intent, just what the D gave us...
Still too many jet sweeps for my liking.
If we were going to spell McMillian for those four plays, I'd just as soon take him out and put Trey in.
Without all the jets, I don't know if that McMillian power run off the jet action would've been as successful. Haha jk... Maybe they only needed to run it 8 times before the counter worked that well.
Didn't his TD run come off a fake jet sweep? Not defending how often we run the jet sweep, but it may have actually helped there.
YUPPPP Stroman had the jet sweep fake and Gallo + Teller pulled backside to lead for Travon. Teller had a huge block 5 yards downfield which sprung Travon for the TD.
You bring up a good point. I watched and said "man, Lefty finally got that to work."
Stroman did carry twice more on our last actual possession, though, and Rogers was the set back during that drive. I would have loved some I formation there.
I got JUICED for the counter pitch to McMillian. That has been a long long time coming.
I loved the counter jet sweep to Rogers...As soon as Motley handed the ball to Rogers I knew it was gonna be a great play
That's my favorite running play, and I don't think I've seen it since Randall was QB :(
I got juiced for the half roll Danny coale special that works every time but we only use every 3 games or so.
I think that is one of the best and most underutilized plays in football.
i can confirm this. i heard noises that no human can replicate.
Sam Rogers big run also came off the fake jet sweep.
Seemed like a lot more emotion tonight. Rogers for "all everything". Such a smart player. Great instincts; a real leader.
I'm sure it's a lot easier to show emotion like that when you're winning but I also noticed this tonight, especially in the 2nd half. Dadi was one of, if not the first one to celebrate McMillian's TD run and it seemed like half the team met Facyson in the endzone after the pass break-up in the 4th quarter. Really cool to see.
This thread will go 150 deep.
But we'll all only get six comments each.
This thread would be a good opportunity for someone to create an account under the name Shane Beamer.
Shocking... we settle on a primary runner, who just happens to be the one with the most YPC on the season, and suddenly we have an offense again.... shocking
be positive bro, it's alright; you're allowed to be happy.
I live in Raleigh... trust me, I'm happy
Just find it frustrating it took until Game 6 to make the obvious adjustment.
Dude, you live in Raleigh?
Where?
Off Leesville
Wife works at State but she wore the O&M on campus today. Good times
Nice. I'm off of Falls of Neuse (for the moment).
You married a good one.
Yay Raleigh peeps I'm by PNC
according to some...not such an obvious adjustment..just sayin'
I guess Shane finally read the book and Joe's charts!!
I hear you man. We all thirst for that golden, vaginal trophy, Freudian as it may be. Savor this one at least. May your beers be heavy, and your thoughts be light.
Joe, I want to point out that we were wearing the only helmets which we've never lost a game wearing. That probably has waaaaay more to do with VT winning than some RB getting a bulk of the carries
AND Beamer had on the white jacket just like he did in our wins.
We are also 2-0 when I wear my Stick It In shirt. You're welcome, Hokie Nation.
4-0 for me. Never leave home without it.
WE are 5-0 in the games after I burn all my Hokie shit!
It was nice to see a single back in the game for once. That being said, there is still a lot of work that needs to be done. This team didn't suddenly morph into a serious running threat but I think it took a step in the right direction this evening. I just hope it's not a red herring. Hopefully this isn't a one-trick-pony type of outing and we see more consistent game planing around fewer backs moving forward.
NC State is not a great team. They're not a garbage team, but they're not a great team either. It's good that we stopped this slide and avoided a 3 game losing streak. Right now, half way through the season, we're still only a .500 team. I'm happy about this win, but we still have the most difficult opponents ahead of us on the schedule. It will be interesting to see if Brewer is ready for Miami. I have my doubts, but if he is, I think this offense will look completely different. At the very least, it should be fun.
Go Hokies
#34, need I say more? #45, and now the offense is alive!
So VT rushed for exactly 200 yards against NC State. That's the first time VT has rushed for at least 200 yards against an ACC opponent since November 1, 2012, when we played Miami.
That was also our third 200+ rushing yard game this season, matching our total for all of last season.
The careful observer will have noticed that when we lined up in the victory formation to end the game, Motley and the line pushed forward to take the knee instead of dropping back a yard. Beamer knew he had 200 rushing yards and wanted to keep it that way.
I saw that and noted at the time, to check rushing stats to look and see if there was a milestone.
Thanks for bringing it out.
Same here, I was wondering if our rushing total was going to drop. It looked like motley never actually dropped his knee on the second kneel down.
Good catch. I was a bit puzzled by that.
"You mean Williams?" -Mack Brown
It's pronounced "Mo-too-poo-koo."
"KEV-in"
I still don't get this joke, but because I know it's the only response I'm going to get, I've refused to ask anyone on this site how to pronounce Der'Woun.
Also, I really do like Mack Brown. His pronunciation of Drew's last name had me laughing on more than one occasion.
"Mo-too-ah-pah-kah"
Mo-too-poo-koo
Yes! This! Mack Brown's strategy is to pick out four consonants and just make up the rest.
Me-pee-and-poop=too
Re: Kevin joke
http://www.thekeyplay.com/comment/reply/8825/254086
THANK YOU.
Somehow, I had already upvoted that.
must have just been fat hooves while scrolling on your tablet...
Der'Woun......Pronounced DARE-ee-on.
From his HokieSports profile.
Sooo...Darian?
Darion....? Yeah. Darion.
woah come on guys.. it's pronounced Kevin
didn't you learn anything on your 1st day of TKP.. /S
Drink. Asked and answered.
I didn't watch the game, only saw the Hokie highlights. The one huge thing, besides Ford and Motley finally getting on the same page, was on the Alexander interception, watch AM. For one of the first times, I really saw him play it perfectly. He understood he didn't have to make the play, just prevent one from happening.
Oh yeah #34 finally got the rock eh?
Good win guys
Edit: bazinga in the 200. I like that style a lot. Gaaa I can't wait to watch the replay
RUN, TRAVON, RUN!!!
This is the picture of the night. Hyped up defensive end, running back feeling the breeze through his hair, faceless friend of mine with his hands held high, smiles all around.
That is a helluva pic.
Where did that come from? It would make a great pic for the wall of the den.
Edit:
#sauces say it was taken by this guy.
https://twitter.com/twhitephoto
It was Trevor taking a picture of Travon for Collegiate Times.
Enthusiasm and Emotion make the scene.
So the problem was that our RBs didn't know which way to run, Dadi for RB coach!
EDIT: Dammit! Double post
Let's go win some fucking football games.
Mcmillian still doesn't look like a complete back to me, but I hope he continues to improve because the dude is a playmaker. I would still like to see some successful runs inside, but it just may not be a reality this year.
The first run after NCSU went for it in 4th down against Facydon, McMillian is met in the hole and just cowered to the ground. He's got a long way to go to be a feature back, but at this point, he runs with as much power as anyone else and has breakaway speed.
*Facyson FTFY
Gotta say it. I sure loved seeing that I-Formation a couple of times tonight.
Did we run it more than the one FB dive/quick pitch?
How can we be sure that Coleman and running-back-by-committee wouldn't have worked?
/s
well...to be fair, we'll never know whether it would have worked..but I'm pretty sure it's been generally accepted by a majority of football teams that to have success on the ground you stick with 1 or 2 guys and ride them consistently (meaning, not substituting every other play) for the entire game. That seems to be the tried and true formula.
As I always say, "if it ain't broke, don't break it"
That may be the conventional wisdom, but it certainly isn't true. Both systems have worked - in general and at VT specifically.
really? when has rotating a back out every other play ever worked for VT?
You're right. I missed the part about not rotating between plays.
The pros do it on occasion (the Saints won a Super Bowl rotating three backs constantly), but I don't know of a time this has been used successfully at VT (although I think its use might be overstated with this yrs team...IIRC, it's mostly been used when VT had given up on the RBs running the ball. There have been fairly few series this year with carries by different running backs).
I rolled in and out of this thread last night like David Wilson.
I want to believe that after frank said there would be change, he sat Shane down and said "McMillian is starting against NCSU. And he's staying in. Stop rotating backs out every damn play."
...we'll never truly know. I just hope this isn't an anomaly...let's keep riding McMillian and Rogers for 200 yards/game and see where that gets us
Fer real. I want to see McMillian and Rogers line up every play. I feel like that combo gives us anything we'd want on any given play. Explosive player? Check. Hard nosed bruiser? Check. Blocker? Check. Passing option? Double check.
Maybe not two blockers, but definitely one blocker and a dump pass if necessary to salvage a play.
I think he did too. (or would like to think that.)
But that is the role of the Chief Whistle.
I watched a miked-up Bobby Bowden on the sidelines, and at certain points, he would issue directives to his coordinators like 'they're getting too much pressure on our QB, or their running back is starting to get some yards on us.....stop it.'
And then he would let the coordinators do their job and adjust based on his input. And they did.
Now, obviously I don't know the dynamics at VT, but I think CFB has been more of a hands-off guy, trust in your hires kinda guy, and that he shortened up the reins this week and issued some specific directives to his staff.
And they worked.
Not to come off as a complete Beamer apologist, but the man can coach, and hasn't won all those games by being lucky. It has been frustrating to watch VT football with the head man, IMO, giving too much ownership to his staff at times. It seems when the heat was on after last week, he righted the ship-he has the knowledge and capability.
But, what about doing that every week? It's your team coach.
I like to think that Shane finally decided that one back stood out
If that were the case, he sure seemed to be the last to see it.
I'm looking forward to seeing how RichRod uses McMillan and Motley next year!
hate to disappoint you, but it will be either Frank Beamer or Tom Herman. RichRod is out
I'mma give you a leg because that was a funny joke.
I get jokes.
Boo! No delegging though!
He has nice instant speed. Even my wife woke up to comment how fast he was.
I would love to argue against having a feature back.
But I can't.
The evidence doesn't support it.
Evidence shmevidence
... And that's about the time AJ Hughes got a carry. Now I see.
11 carries isn't exactly a feature back...
11/23 carries (48%) by non-QB and anyone not named AJ Hughes is as close as this staff is to designating a feature back. The carousel was uninstalled entirely.
No, a feature back is the guy who carries the ball when everybody knows he's going to carry it and still gets yardage. Even when VT has split carries among 4 people, the 3rd (and sometimes the 4th runner) was getting more carries than that. Right now, McMillian is a guy who thrives mostly on the element of surprise (11 carries) and getting to the edge on misdirection. And there's nothing wrong with that. Use it to your advantage.
But let's withhold judgement for 3 or 4 games as whether he's a "feature back". My guess is that folks will be asking what the problem is with the run game if/when he gets much more than 11 carries.
Think it's fair to say McMillian was the feature back vs NC State
if Travon gets 11+ carries from here on out then yeah I'd say he's a feature back. For VT's sake I hope he does because he's the best back we have that is healthy.
Even in today's pass heavy offenses, there are well over 100 RBs in D1 averaging 11 carries or more per game on the season. One carry per possession in one game is only a feature back if you have O&M glasses on.
Comparing raw numbers is apples and oranges. McMillian was the only VT RB to take a handoff in that game. That's a feature/primary/first-string/whatever back. What would it take, in your mind, to define a feature back for VT?
Huh? So Rogers isn't a RB when he's the lone back in the back field? Stroman isn't RB on those jet sweeps, but McMillian was?
The only systemic difference between the Pitt game and the NC State was the names and that some of the QB carries were distributed to the RBs. Take 8 of Motley's carries in the Pitt game and give 'em to the RBs in the NCSt game. There's not much difference.
It is definitely still not a feature back system no matter how much people want to convince themselves it is.
What I'm trying to get at is how you define a feature back. You keep saying that 11 carries doesn't define a feature back; numbers in isolation mean nothing. If an RB for Team X gets 11 carries, and the team only rushes 11 times, that's not a feature back? Disagree. If an RB for Team Y rushes 11 times out of 40, I agree that's not a feature back. But a rigid adherence to a number means nothing. McMillian was clearly the primary RB against NC State. He was in for entire series and drives at a time. That's a big change from the previous VT practice of swapping guys out every play. It's a move in the right direction and a signal to most of us that the coaching staff is now willing to move ahead with one guy until he can't do it. Otherwise we would have seen JC and Trey...at all.
Rogers got carries, sure. But you didn't like my 48% argument above, so what's the threshold for you? We don't have a guy like Leonard Fournette in the backfield, so we work with what we've got - a bunch of guys with some talent who will occasionally break a long run. McMillian was the best chance of doing that against NC State and he did. So the coaches went with him.
soo fournette's not a feature back because the other RB's & QB get carries too ??
Of course not. But I appreciate you helping support my opinion. Thanks.
Fournette got 67 (45%) of total 149 carries (22.3 per game). #2 guy got 30 carries (20%; 10.0 per game). And Fournette didn't even play most of the 2nd half of one of those games.
Getting almost half the carries in college football (where QBs run more and sacks count as runs) and more than twice as many carries per game as the number 2 guy (and more than twice as many as VT's new "feature back") is exactly what I would call a feature back.
When a healthy Fournette gets 11 carries in a competitive game, call me and let me know who's replacing Les Miles.
And further more to VTGM's point, what is your connection to the RB rotation? What skin do you have in this to be so adamant that we give carries to all of our players, or don't give a majority of carries to one guy? I just want to know why you're defending what you're defending.
I'm not defending anything. I just 1) don't believe running back rotations (or feature back systems for that matter) are necessarily good or bad...but rather an excuse for people to grab onto and 2) I don't believe that VT has gone to a feature back system, but has mostly just changed the names.
I just don't understand how when, for instance, JCC and Edmunds get (12+11) 23 of the 44 carries (52.3%) vs OSU that's RB by committee but when McMillian & Rogers get (11+8) 19 of 36 carries vs NC State (52.7%) vs. NC State, that's a feature back system.
Or when the JCC & McMillian get (6+5) 11 of 15 non-QB touches vs Pitt (73%) that's RB by committee, but 19 of 23 (83%) vs NC St is a feature back system.
how many consecutive carries did JCC and Edmunds each have?
How many consecutive carries did McMillian and Rogers each have?
The key that everyone seems to be missing isn't just the distribution of the carries...it's HOW they're distributed. Feeding a single back for an entire series has proven to be much more effective than rotating backs in and out every other play. Our EX RB coach, Billy Hite, has even been quoted saying he prefers to leave a single back in the game for an entire drive so they can get into a rhythm. He believes it helps them to see the field better and get a sense for what the defense is trying to do. I, for one, agree wholeheartedly with that philosophy.
I also don't think, when you're trying to evaluate what you've got, that running several different backs on successive plays does anything to show you who can do what. The running game in football relies on more than just the RB. You have to operate behind an OL susceptible to missing assignments and you're facing a defense that will give you different looks on different down/distances. The best measuring stick, IMO, is to run the same back for an entire series to get the best results. If you repeat this again for the second back on the next series, you'll get a better analysis of what each guy can do. The other variables, like OL blocking and defensive play call, will normalize over the course of an entire series. Otherwise, if you play RB1 for 2 plays and then pull him out for RB2 you're losing that normalization because the OL could have missed an assignment on 50% of RB1s carries resulting in a loss of yards. RB2 might get 2 carries behind an OL which doesn't make a mistake. So now you have a huge discrepancy in the data set you're using to evaluate each back.
If you go even further and argue that each RB only plays in certain situations/play calls/personnel groupings, you're skewing the data even more. Maybe certain play calls are executed to a higher level than others by the other position groups which could either help or hinder the back. Something that is out of the RBs control. It just doesn't make sense to me to run 3 different RBs on the same set of downs. That's what we were doing. If you want to run 3 different RBs that's fine. Just do it in a way that makes sense.
^THIS^
This has been my point all season long. People wonder why JC hasn't done this year what he did at the end of last year. It's because he gets one carry and then gets subbed off for Trey or Travon or Sam. They HAVE to get into a rhythm.
You (and others) may have been saying it, but it's still mostly not true.
Go back and look at the play by plays for the season. Maybe a handful or so times did more than one non-QB get carries in a series (and when it did happen it was usually the jet sweep). And in the OSU, Furman, & Purdue games there were more instances of consecutive carries by non-QBs than the NC St game.
The real problem is that in the ECU & Pitt games it was pretty much just Motley, Motley, Motley, Motley. Did it really matter who was lined up in the backfield?
People seem to be forgetting just how much good offensive line play can make virtually any system work (and look). And conversely how good defense can make any offensive system look bad.
So you're saying our OL is worse run-blocking now than it was the last four games of last season and that is why JC had success? Not a chance.
Huh? How did you glean that from anything I wrote?
Nevertheless, I do believe that the offensive line run blocking wasn't particularly good overall last Friday (and not as good as it was late last season). A couple of very nicely blocked runs does not make a good performance overall. In general, the OL got little push vs NC State. However, the pass blocking was very good overall -- the best it's been all season.
As to whether that's why JCC had more success late last season, yes I do think OL blocking was a big factor. But I'm not sure what that has to do with anything...
Please provide your proof that "feeding a single back for an entire series has proven to be much more effective than rotating backs in and out every other play." Pro teams do this all the time based on personnel and down & distance.
Other than "run the clock" time late in the game when McMillian, then Rogers, then Stroman each got consecutive carries after the other - McMillian got consecutive carries once (4 straight carries in 2nd qtr) and Rogers got consecutive carries once. I'm not sure what conclusion you can draw from that.
I do recall that people complained too when Hite rotated Evans and Williams and Wilson each a series, so if anything I suppose it proves that fans will second guess just about anything.
we also scored 21 straight points in the 2nd qtr. Coincidence?
You accuse me of not using evidence in supporting my statement "feeding a single back for an entire series has proven to be much more effective than rotating backs in and out every other play" and then you immediately follow with a similar statement to the contrary without any supporting evidence. Interesting tactic.
Are you saying pro teams don't do this all the time?
I would say that none of the teams with a good RB do this. Jamal Charles, Le'Veon Bell, Todd Gurley, Adrian Peterson, Matt Forte, etc. The good RBs stay on the field for whole drives at a time unless they ask to be subbed out.
Exactly. VT does not have a great back. There are a bunch of solid backs with differing strengths and weaknesses.
If Ryan Williams or David Wilson was on this roster, they'd be getting the rock 20+ times a game.
Absolutely!
If we had someone good enough to get 80% of the carries, he would be getting 80% of the carries!
And VT doesn't...hence my original point that the changes were pretty minor and certainly not one where VT now has a "feature back" system.
VT rotates 3-4 backs based on feelings and a you participated award. Most NFL teams rotate 2 backs and 1 of those is normally your 3rd down or pass catching back.
"Feeding a single back for an entire series has proven to be much more effective than rotating backs in and out every other play."
Citation needed.
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2009/can-running-backs-ge...
The article references a study from their 2007 book. It's not on the internet, but the data showed that teams that rotated their backs on consecutive carries showed no dropoff in yardage but teams that just pounded one back saw a decline in effectiveness.
You probably can't juggle 4 RBs. But you can certainly rotate two of them, which is what VT did against NC State (McMillian and Rogers). People talked about Coleman being good because he got into a rhythm last year but he ran well at the beginning of the game in his first few carries. Did he get into a rhythm in pre-game warmups? It's most likely not a real thing.
Lets take out all the QB and WR carries because regardless Motley and Stroman will get 3+ carries each a game and we're looking to see if we have a RB Committee not how many times a skill position player touches the ball.
Travon got 6 carries Sam got 3. so that's 3 RB's and 1 H back that got carries that's a committee
Trey + Sam had 2 carries each. so that's 3 RB's and 1 H back that got carries that's a committee
Trey + JC got 0 carries, so that's 1 RB and 1 H back that got carries that's an RB1 and an RB2
So basically the difference between a "feature back" system and a "RB by committee" system is whether the #3 & #4 backs get no carries vs 5% of the carries? So the LSU system above must be a "RB by committee" system? The 11/8/4 carries distribution in the NC St game is still pretty close to the classic 40/40/20 "RB by Committee". Certainly closer than what, say, LSU is employing.
The bottom line is that, IMO, biggest change vs NC State was the names, not the system (although you could argue that not rotating guys within series was also a change). That JCC and Edmunds didn't get carries could have been just as much coincidence as overall plan going forward (and IMO more coincidence). I suspect we haven't seen the last of at least one of those two getting more than nominal carries.
I have no issue with Trey JC Travon or Sam getting carries.. I do however have an issue with all 4 of them getting multiple touches in a game that is not a blowout. There is 0 reason why 3 rbs and an h back should all get carries unless the school is GT.
Show me how many teams use 3 rbs and a fb to run the ball? .
Lefty and friends created a game plan to get McMillian and Sam in space so the system changed a little bit in terms of who should get the ball. how many times have we seen that counter pitch or the fake sweep with the 2 pulling linemen lead the way?
Lets all hope the discussion was play 1-2 RBs that's it.. its big boy ball and not everyone will get carries.
I agree that the game plan was probably to exploit NC St on the edge and with some misdirection. But that doesn't mean there was some big systemic change. It was more a tactical change and the best way to accomplish that would be to also use McMillian up the gut a handful of times to set it up. But that may not (and probably won't) be the best approach in other match-ups. That they only used McMillian and Rogers less than 20 carries combined implies that IMO.
VT won conference titles in 2004 and 2010 with 3 backs + the qb EACH getting more than 7 carries a game (2004) and more than 10 carries a game (2010).
So your presumption that a 1-2 system is best is...a presumption. It depends on your personnel and your match-ups. I always hope VT uses what is best for the situation at hand.
One thing I'm almost certain will not happen is that the formula for the NC St game will be used exclusively for the remainder of the season. VT will have a hard time winning with just an 11/8 carries tandem and if/when Brewer comes back, it changes the dynamic considerably.
Obviously the game plan changes with Brewer in at QB. The number should look more like 18/10/3-5 for the RB's but there has to be a clear RB1 that stays in for a whole drive or two. Hopefully they have figured that out now and Travon and Sam will get more carries while JC and Trey fight for the remaining 3-5 carries.
The games where we have 3 RB's and a H back each get 6-8 carries has got to stop and I think we all can agree on that.
Preface, this all personal opinion, and as such, isn't an argument.
I know I'm the weird one, but I don't mind a correctly managed carousel. Shane clearly couldn't do that. For a RB, it's a balance of consecutive plays, with carries on some of them. They don't do well if they get alot (approximately 20?) in a row, but they have to have some in a row (approximately 10). The idea is, on a blocking play for a RB, he'll either block, or escape into the flat by a screen/dump/wheel route. On these plays, the RB isn't working as hard, and gets a slight breather. He should carry 3 or 4 times before he needs a sideline break if he's carrying an average of every-other or every-third play.
Shane chose to rotate after every play, or after every carry, denying the RB rhythm (as we could all see) in a failed attempt to keep them fresh. He should have been rotating every 10 or 12 plays, or, we'll say, 4 carries. That way, the RB's stay fresh, and get a rhythm. The stats on RB carries are clear, they need about 12 plays or 4 carries.
Should also be mentioned that NC State has now given up 200+ yards rushing in its first two games this season against P5 teams. They may not be very good against the run.
OT: Is um going to dismantle us?