I can definitively say 'maybe.' I didn't know this was a thing until after I got the car. I am not sure if BGE participates but I intend to find out.
EDITED: BGE has a time of day rate they offer to EV owners, which jacks up the daytime price and reduces the nighttime price, assuming you'll be charging overnight.
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Is Progress still around? I thought they got bought out by Duke Energy.
I worked with Progress in Florida on a professional level and they were the most inept group of people I've ever seen in my life. It's truly a wonder that anyone actually got electricity in their homes and stuff got repaired after it broke.
In the middle of the project Duke bought Progress and the Duke people came in and things got some better. There was one meeting where the Duke people met with us separate from the former Progress employees and basically told us they had no idea things were that bad with Progress and weren't sure how they functioned.
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No but you might skip a payment along the way or even stop paying altogether. Your security deposit necessity is determined based upon a credit check. If they don't make you pay a security deposit, it's because they don't see you as a high risk for not paying. It has nothing to do with you damaging anything. It's simply "security" for them when in the event that you stop making payments.
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Did your power company give you a special rate? People at Tesla have told me that some companies will give you a discounted rate for going electric.
My pops has a Tesla - he gets a healthy tax return, can use any HOV lane at any time (except 66 in NOVA for some reason). He doesn't get a 'discount' per say from the power company, but he can set up the software in the car to charge during 'off hours' when the electric company charges a lower rate per watt. So, any electricity used during the daytime is charged at X$/Watt. Anything used from 10pm - 6am (or whatever time period BGE has determined) is billed at Y$/Watt - where Y <<< X. He says his electric bills might've fluctuated a couple dollars, but it's been so minimal he hasn't noticed.
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This is probably what the lady meant, but obviously didn't feel like going into detail about it. That's great though. Electric has always intrigued me because I always felt like the electric bill would negate the gas savings but it doesn't seem to be the case.
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Electric has always intrigued me because I always felt like the electric bill would negate the gas savings but it doesn't seem to be the case.
For what it's worth, I think in March the car will be 3 years old. My dad is yet to pay anything beyond monthly installments of the loans. All maintenance is covered by Tesla - the car's software is routinely checking diagnostics of the car and sending updates to Tesla. When Tesla sees something strange, they schedule a time to drop off a rental at the house, and pick up my dad's car to take to their shop. So - it's not only the money you save in gas; there's no oil changes, no cost to maintenance, no dealing with mechanics, no issues with the transmission (since there is no transmission), insurance is less than it was for his last car (09 acura TSX). If you can afford the astronomical cost up front, it very well could save a bit of money and even more frustration over a 10+ year period.
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the car's software is routinely checking diagnostics of the car and sending updates to Tesla.
Oh yeah - well my car tells me when I need gas.
But seriously. I never knew all that. That's incredible. I knew about oil and maintenance etc just from a 15 minute discussion with the Tesla folks at Tysons. They were awesome and insightful. I loved her response when we asked why the EPA gave a mileage estimate when theirs no gas. She simply said "The EPA feels like they need to meddle into everything." Tesla is changing the game. It will take awhile for everyone else to get caught up but oh what a time that'll be.
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"The EPA feels like they need to meddle into everything" I dunno, I'd have another way of describing it besides meddling.
The EPA wanted it to be obvious to car shoppers that electric cars are vastly more efficient than gas cars and give them a familiar way of evaluating efficiency. Everybody is used to comparing car efficiency by MPG, but almost nobody knows that 27 kW-hr/100mi = 124 MPGe. Hell people in America can't be bothered to use gallons/100miles which is a more linear measure of efficiency. (for example 10 MPG to 15 MPG is a huge difference in efficiency compared to 40 MPG to 45 MPG, yet they're both changes by 5 MPG)
Now you might think Tesla would appreciate that effort by EPA to make it obvious how efficient their cars are, so why are they denigrating the EPA? Well when you see 100 MPGe next to a Tesla and 124 MPGe next to a BMW i3 you might realize Tesla isn't the be-all end-all of electric cars...
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I had no idea that I was so interested in this until you posted it. Did you have to get a special outlet installed in your house? If so, how costly was it? How long is the battery supposed to last before it has to be replaced? How much does a new battery cost?
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Did you have to get a special outlet installed in your house? If so, how costly was it?
Not yet, the car comes with a 120V cord. But yeah, I am getting one installed. You really need a 240V charger to keep the charge time to a minimum (in my case, 7 hours max). I don't know how much the circuit will cost, but the charger itself is pretty cheap, since Chevy has a deal with Bosch to give Spark EV owners a $500 discount. Plus the state will rebate half the cost of the installation up to $900, so I should be able to get in pretty reasonable.
As to public charging, there are many charging stations out there, but only a few that provide the fast DC charging option. In Baltimore metro area we have maybe three of these but more on the way. With the fast charger you get 80 percent charged in 20 minutes. And most public charging stations are FREE. It's just finding one that offers convenience. I have a free one 1/2 mile from my house, which can hold me over in a pinch until I get my own 240V charger.
How long is the battery supposed to last before it has to be replaced? How much does a new battery cost?
The battery has tested out at 200,000 cycles, which you can consider 200,000 days if you charge it once per day. And as to replacement cost, I'm leasing it for 39 months so it won't be an issue unless I decide to buy it out.
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The heater is the big variable. Turn up the heat, lose range. Hard to say by how much, but it is significant. Owners recommend you use the heated seats in lieu of it.
I don't have a commute per se as I am a consultant. I use the car for local driving and when I can do that it stretches the range substantially, up to the 100 mile range. If I was on the highway mostly, it would drop the range into the high 50s I think.
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Nice! I'm somewhat intrigued / jealous. After I run my current Accord into the ground, i'll be looking into Hybrids (most likely a second-hand Prius). However, that might not be for several more years, so i'm hoping electric technology really takes off by then!
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I drive a Ford Fusion hybrid, and at the time when I was looking at hybrids a few years ago, there weren't exactly a surplus of non-prius hybrid options out there (read: I wanted a car that looked better than a Prius). Even in the few years that have passed, the number of options on the market now has ballooned. Next time I look, I'll have the Accord, Camry, Fusion, Malibu, and Sonata to look at in that class with hybrid options, plus a few more in the luxury bracket if I look more used.
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Thanks for the info. I particularly don't care about how I look in a car nowadays haha, so I don't mind getting a Prius (or whatever is cheapest in the future). I'd rather buy a hybrid / electric without financing and then save a bunch hopefully on gas!
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As it's my only car, I also needed something a little bit bigger than a Prius. Which also meant I had to limit my options to hybrids with fold-down back seats. Which pretty much left Fusion alone. But again, there will be tons more options in the future. I'm hearing the new Accord hybrid is getting pretty close to its epa estimates (I think 47 MPG), which, while not quite up to Prius levels, is a really good number.
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For anyone who is interested, Subaru also has a hybrid these days, the Subaru XV CrossTrek Hybrid (what an annoyingly long name). It doesn't get anywhere close to the echelons of the Honda or Toyota hybrids, but it's EPA projections are 32 MPG because they run them cold for the tests. The actual car (or at least the one we have) gets around 40 MPG. It also has some other advantages (read: all wheel drive) which is an absolute must up on our muddy/snowy/rough-driving mountain.
Oh and also it has fold down seats just like it was some kind of impreza (because it is)
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I don't have the hybrid version (because towing anything on the hybrid voids your warranty, and it's my AdventureMobile), but the Crosstrek is an excellent car. If you get the all-weather mats, the plastic/rubber crap even goes up the back of the fold-down seats, so your whole rear compartment is water resistant. The non-hybrid has pretty good gas mileage, too (even with the SkyBox on top, I still got 30+ highway on our last ski trip). Add snow tires and that thing is unstoppable.
(And yeah, it's basically an Impreza with 8 extra inches of clearance. I had a difficult time getting out of the one Impreza I sat in, but zero issues with the Crosstrek. Plus that just helps it blast through the snow that much easier.)
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For efficiency, cost of operation, pay back it seems the diesels are hard to beat. You'll pay less up front and get as good or better mileage (45-50 on many) and diesel fuel price has come WAY down.
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As a Volkswagen fan, I definitely looked into diesel options closely as well. At the time (and maybe still, I'm unsure) the additional cost of diesel fuel for the same MPGs my Fusion gets (I hover around 46, personally) made it not as cost effective to go diesel.
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Diesel is a good alternative to gas but doesn't really have a clear edge against hybrids except in utlilty/towing applications. Both have more expensive drivetrains. Both get great MPG. But hybrids typically run on regular gas which still costs less than diesel fuel.
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Since Hondas are indestructible, by the time you do that Tesla might have their Model X out, which is supposed be starting at $35k. Then you won't have to buy a Prius.
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I was going to be in awe if it was a Tesla. That is my dream car. I think they are the only people that have gotten the electric car right. All others I would be embarrassed driving. But that's just me. Once I can afford a Tesla I will be joining you in the electric movement. Just give me a little time.
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I want a Tesla soooo bad. Just between the performance, lack of emissions, and service that comes with it, such a good vehicle. I may have to hope for a used version in a couple more years. Would love to pair it with some solar panels and Tesla's power wall, would be damn near free to run.
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Given this is a subcompact car, the acceleration is MASSIVE. The motors are very high torque, and it's delivered all the way up to 40 mph. The figures I've read are 0-60 in under 7 seconds. The Spark EV, if nothing else, is getting very high marks for performance.
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Good call on the lease, which is something I almost never say. Electric vehicles are really the exception, for me, because of how fast the technology is going to advance by the time that your lease is up.
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I got the lease because I am not sure what Chevy will do with the Spark EV after they roll out the Bolt. I think the Spark is a compliance car (for California) even though they say it isn't. We'll see.
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I have never met someone with one of those bumper stickers that is anything approximating reasonable or tolerant of opposing viewpoints. Which is really a shame, because the concept of those stickers is one I can get behind.
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Have not personally seen that one. Had a similar experience in reverse, though. On my old Ford Ranger, I had a sticker on the back window that was a wheel, each spoke had the symbol of a different religion. The cross was a Constantine cross, with the chi rho superimposed over the crucifix. (Looks like a P with an X over it.)
Constantine crosses are pretty common throughout Christianity, but not commonly used in the southeast. I got a lot of flack from people thinking that out of all the religious symbols, the cross was "X-ed out."
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Sadly, you will also hear this misunderstanding with reference to the abbreviation "X-mas." The chi-rho was a symbol for "Christ" long before the imaginary "war on Christmas."
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Have car companies improved the cost to battery replacement? Have companies improved the energy cost to manufacture the batteries? Until those two things happen it feels like it's a net loss to buy outright a full electric car.
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I'm looking for investors for my idea for an electric car that can also use natural Methane gases from the driver and passenger seats to fuel the vehicle.
via GIPHY
In other words a car that is run off farts... who's with me!!
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I would just say "Why? What are you hoping to accomplish?"
Not to be a buzz-kill or too pedantic, but look at the environmental harm caused by mining the lead or lithium used in the batteries. They simply destroy the earth with those vast open pit mines, and the release of heavy metal tailings.
And where does your electricity come from? A coal-fired plant? Snatural gas? Probably not wind, where the blades are like Cuisinarts for birds, or solar, which doesn't take up vast acres of land, shading it from the sun. Or maybe hydro where we block streams from fish migration in some cases.
so what good are you really doing? All energy (that we use) requires being liberated from some stored form into usable heat. I'm not saying that running your vehicle on electricity does no good. I'm just saying it does come with a cost.
Yes, I drive an Accord 90 miles per day 3 days a week. I've heard the whining and crying about conservation and pollution since grade-school in the 70s. I'm kind of burned out on the whole topic.
Just conserve as best you can. Consolidate your trips. Turn down your thermostats. Drinks lots of bourbon and have lots of dirty sex to stay warm.
Oh. be sure to buy a car from a company that *required* a federal bailout because they make inferior products and have sub-par management. Don't buy from Ford who managed on their own.
Do I sound bitter? I feel bitter. This is what happens when the football season ends. I try basketball, but it just isn't the same.
How many more days until kickoff?
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The thing I take from everything you've said is that you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. We're all on this big rock together and we might as well coexist and be nice to each other because it's all going to end one day for each of us.
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I'm watching. But I've also been too busy fixing my furnace. So blanket warning, tongue-in-cheek is cool, just mind yourselves. There is an interesting technological and scientific discussion that can happen, which I'm hoping emerges.
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yeah I typed it up in a frenzy and hit "Post" and then realized that I probably shouldn't open that can of worms here. I changed it as quickly as I could hoping to minimize the audience. Sometimes my impulses get the best of me. Oops.
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The net environmental benefit for most hybrids and electric vehicles is indeed overstated, and some people buy them just to feel good. But there is one truth underlying it all - fossil fuels are finite. It will take a technological overhaul to bypass this issue. Otherwise, sometime in the next 50-70 years (IIRC, don't quote me on it), we're going to pull the last drop of decomposed dino out of the Earth, followed by a collective, "so what now?" The technology for batteries, turbines, solar panels, etc. needs to improve, but these are all emerging areas. I, for one, would like to see more people using that technology so it can develop under real-world use and testing. Otherwise, we're pretty much screwed.
Arnold Schwarzenneger perhaps said it best (paraphrasing) - put all your notions and opinions on efficiency, climate change, etc. out the window. What do you do when you no longer have gasoline? You'd damn well better have a plan.
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I think people get hybrids / electrics to stop the rate of pollution to the environment. Considering how bad air pollution is not only here but the rest of the world, if we can do even a little bit to help the environment, then why not? Yes getting the aformentioned types of cars isn't going to automatically solve every problem, but every little bit helps - so why not?
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fossil fuels are finite. It will take a technological overhaul to bypass this issue. Otherwise, sometime in the next 50-70 years (IIRC, don't quote me on it), we're going to pull the last drop of decomposed dino out of the Earth
(Warning: going off on a bit of a tangent here) As you likely suspected, you're right in principle, but probably not on the details. Whenever you see a published estimate stating that there is X amount of a particular resource left on Earth, they're almost always referring to reserves, which is a term that has a very specific meaning in the natural resources business. The word "reserve" means an identified resource that has been adequately explored and quantified and is economically exploitable. There is a lot of oil/coal/gas/etc. still in the ground that we know exists (and almost certainly much that we haven't found yet) that isn't tallied as a reserve because it hasn't been adequately explored or current extraction technologies and/or market conditions do not allow for profitable extraction. A good example would be the shale oil that they currently produce a lot of up in North Dakota. Thirty years ago, geologists knew that stuff was up there, but it wasn't considered a reserve because nobody had developed the technology to get it out of the ground and into your car in a cost-effective manner. Ditto for oilfields way out under the ocean floor. The speed at which we can develop affordable alternatives will dictate just how many years worth of dino remains we really have left. If we can't figure out a way to bring down the cost of alternative sources like wind, solar, tidal, etc., or develop something new, like fusion, then I thnk we'll see that our fossil fuel resources will last a lot longer than the 50-70 years (or whatever the official estimate is) that is currently being estimated.
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Fair point. I guess my overarching argument is, anything we pull out of the ground is finite. We're on a 5 billion year clock (per the expected life of the sun); I am willing to bet fossil fuels go away a few billion years before that happens. Gotta figure out a way to exist!
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Energy is life. Discoveries of cheaper energies have had enormously positive impacts on the vector of civilization with remarkably little in the way of negative impacts that hasn't been remediable.
If you think we've got a 5 billion year clock, I've got a meteor to sell you.
If we were to take full advantage of the cheap and abundant energy available, we could get off this rock with its finite resources and the completely natural extinction event that comes every few hundred thousand years, give or take an eon.
But instead, we talk about bumper stickers and football and bourbon.
So really, a win-win. /s
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Fair point. I guess my overarching argument is, anything we pull out of the ground is finite.
Yup, that's what I was agreeing with you about. The point I was trying to illustrate is that it's misleading for the experts to state that we have enough of X resource to last Y years. It creates an illusion of scarcity that often leads to poor decision making. We should absolutely be looking for the next big thing (tidal energy and fusion reactors, please), but forsaking the readily available resources we already have in favor of wind turbines that require more energy to produce (by some estimates) than they can generate in their lifetimes seems foolish to me.
*steps off soapbox before this thread gets even further derailed
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Speaking of, has anyone else been following the Wendelstein 7-X stellarator? The test run on December 10 successfully produced a helium plasma, and trials to produce a hydrogen plasma (the main objective of the project) will begin sometime this month.
Even if the Wendelstein 7-X never proves to be an efficient reactor (and it doesn't promise to be) if the trial is a success it will prove stellarator technology is viable and could lead to a breakthrough in fusion reactor technology. Stellarators show a lot more promise than tokamak reactors, but have historically been considered such an absolute bitch to construct (Wendelstein 7-X has one million construction hours) that they were considered essentially impossible to construct a short while ago.
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Edit: largely repeating what others have already said, catching up from not reading a lot of TKP over Christmas/New Years business and hadn't read ahead far enough.
But there is one truth underlying it all - fossil fuels are finite. It will take a technological overhaul to bypass this issue. Otherwise, sometime in the next 50-70 years (IIRC, don't quote me on it), we're going to pull the last drop of decomposed dino out of the Earth, followed by a collective, "so what now?"
When I was in elementary school 20+ years ago I remember being taught that we would run out of fossil fuels in about 25-35 years, so I tend to take these predictions with a bit of a grain of salt. While we will obviously run out eventually if we don't develop alternatives, between better technology in mining/drilling to making more resources recoverable and more efficient technology for the use of fossil fuels in vehicles, power plants, etc. I think we'll easily have transitioned to other power sources before the run out. If demand is high enough and supply low enough to make it economically feasible, companies will spend the money to go after resources that are harder to recover. And lack of supply will cause prices to rise leading to increased conservation.
I personally lean towards increasing our reliance on nuclear power, especially in 30-50 years when fusion reactors are projected start to operating commercially.
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Even if the environment doesn't enter into the conversation, the economic incentives to purchase an electric vehicle make it a very enticing option, if your driving needs can be met with the limitations inherent to them.
But as for your original question, the math's been done. Even if you power an electric vehicle by a coal-fired plant, assuming one charge per day, the electric car results in fewer greenhouse gases than a comparable gas-powered internal combustion engine.
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But as for your original question, the math's been done. Even if you power an electric vehicle by a coal-fired plant, assuming one charge per day, the electric car results in fewer greenhouse gases than a comparable gas-powered internal combustion engine.
Yes, greenhouse gases. But how do you compare pollution from greenhouse gases to pollution from lead/mercury/whatever at the mines? The answer is that you don't. I had a professor of advanced vehicle technologies at tech tell us all about how much of a mess making batteries is and how bad it is for the environment and that you couldn't say pound for pound that they had less impact than a high efficiency diesel. Then he went on to tell us he drives a Prius because a) it's cheaper for him directly and b) any time you can push the pollution production up the line (suppliers rather than consumers) you consolidate the problem and it's easier to address. You can implement a strategy at a single coal plant to reduce emissions a heck of a lot easier than on every individual car.
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b) any time you can push the pollution production up the line (suppliers rather than consumers) you consolidate the problem and it's easier to address. You can implement a strategy at a single coal plant to reduce emissions a heck of a lot easier than on every individual car.
Very good point. But then why not buy electric cars that'll then presumably push the pollution problem off of the track of big oil / dirty coal and onto the battery folks instead? Consolidate the problem with battieries and perhaps take oil / coal out of the equation (well...as much as possible).
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Had a similar conversation with a professor (chemistry, maybe?) about how godawful for the environment photovoltaic cells are to manufacture. The conversation ended with him arguing a shift to solar is still a net plus for the planet because, if properly manufactured, one photovoltaic cell lasts decades, with no further pollution to the planet beyond the manufacture, as compared to coal-fired power plants, which are continuously polluting.
That's always been my rule of thumb. As long as it lasts long enough, anything battery powered is going to be better than something run on an ICE, because on on hand you've got environmental impact during construction, and on the other you have pervasive and persistent environmental impact.
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EV are cheap to operate, if nothing else. 15,000 miles per year in a 25mpg car will run you $1,200 at current gas prices ($2/gal). EV for 15,000 miles per year would be around $540.
Considering gas prices are much more volatile than electric rates, that gap is only going to widen.
Toss in no oil changes, no air filter, no fuel filter, no timing belts, etc and regular maintenance is less on an EV too.
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My dad drives a prius, he gives less than two shits about the environment. In the 80's, he drove a Chevy Citation (look it up, ugly as hell). He just doesn't want to spend money on gas.
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I care about the environment and our impending fossil fuel situation... but basically this. When I bought my hybrid, I was driving 80 miles a day, 5 days a week (fuel was also more expensive at the time too). And I'm about to be doing much more than that for awhile. As I was doing my research, I calculated that it would take me less than a year to save back the additional upfront cost of buying the hybrid Fusion over a normal one, and everything since then has been additional savings for me.
Some cars aren't even more expensive off the lot for the hybrid versions, such as the Lincoln MKZ.
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The difference being in the energy losses- large powerplants make more power from the same amount of fossil fuel as your car, since the scale, lack of weight restriction, and fewer size restrictions allows engineers to design a much more efficient system. So while the electricity to drive an electric car may indeed come from a non-renewable source at the powerplant, it's still more efficient than the internal combustion engine in a regular car.
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When you need a tow, let me know... i'm in the area and am always willing to help a fellow Hokie.
Don't have a tow truck, though, but more than happy to buy you a beer.
Screw the natural resource countries who have been holding the world hostage and recently been indiscriminately terrorizing them. Well unless you count us by proxy. In which case, screw them, here's to us!
Seriously, congrats. If more of us bought, we could start to push electric vehicles over the adoption curve or to the repair shop whatever is around that proverbial bend. If its an adoption curve, then heck yes. A world of non petrol fueled religious animosity is surely a safer one.
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I struggle to grasp the cost advantage. My gas powered compact gets right at 40 mpg. Over a 200k lifespan of the car, it will cost me roughly $15k in gas ($3/gal). The difference in sticker price is roughly $10k. So even if electricity is free, it takes the life of the car to pay back the difference. Also, a huge difference, I can hop in my gas powered car and drive across the country if I want to and never have to charge a battery. For me, the range needs to go up and the price come down before I'm in the market.
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There's always the Chevy Volt (or other plug-in hybrids) for those who want electric around town and gas for road trips.
Also, you can always find a stripped down econobox to ruin the value proposition of an EV.
But take a look at the VW eGolf... fantastic, well equipped hatchback that is only about $3,000 more than a similarly equipped Golf 1.8T *before* tax incentives and gets 126 city / 105 hwy vs 25 city / 36 hwy for the 1.8T range is 83 miles so you aren't taking it on any long road trips, but it's a comfortable, well equipped car for daily commuting.
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There's a bunch of charging stations and super charging stations popping up now. http://www.plugshare.com/ shows standard and "high power" charging stations that can recharge a dead battery in 45 minutes (not ideal, but a start). Plus, how often are you driving cross-country? For most of us, the answer is never, but even if that did happen, you could rent a car.
The cost savings is not having to do anything but rotate your tires. I believe Tesla guarantees their batteries for 10 years, and I believe the technology will continue to improve where they aren't so expensive to replace.
But to each his/her own. I got to drive a Tesla Model S a few years ago for a news segment and I've been a fan ever since. I bet the BMWs are nice too - haven't had the chance to drive one of those.
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This is kind of a tangent off of your post but it's something I recently found about my hybrid that I wasn't anticipating. Due to the car's ability to recoup energy during the braking process, something all hybrids and EV vehicles do, the wear on the actual brake pads is almost negligible. I have 66,000 miles on my car and the pads look brand new.
Just an interesting tidbit I wanted to share.
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The cost savings is not having to do anything but rotate your tires. I believe Tesla guarantees their batteries for 10 years, and I believe the technology will continue to improve where they aren't so expensive to replace
Tesla did have plans for a battery 'swap' - you'd pull up to a station, and for $80 they'd switch out your battery in 5 minutes (basically the cost and time for a very large tank of gas), but they quickly determined that there's just not enough people driving Tesla's at the moment for it to be cost effective.
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All sources of power on earth are ultimately derived from the sun, even wind and nuclear. Fossil fuels take a long time to develop. Lets go with solar as directly as possible.
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Tide would derive from gravity with the moon impacting that most here, magnetism within each mass.
There is great power in the movement of interstellar bodies. Having satellites orbiting gas giants generating power is something we'll probably not see in our lifetime but it'll happen.
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I love the torque you get from an electric motor, makes it a ton of fun to punch it at a stoplight, but the only way full electric it going to make it as a technology is if the markets are manipulated by the goverment (as they are right now with tax breaks and subsidies).
I would go into the whole energy density conversation with regards to batteries (aside: the best batteries don't have the energy density of wood), but it seems most of you are still unaware that fossil fuels are not "fossils" at all. We can grow algae fairly quickly so that it can be refined into fuel. We never have to worry about running out, only that currently it is more expensive than getting it from the ground. FYI: Virginia Tech is at the forefront of research into making Biogasoline economically viable.
My biggest problem is there are several times per year when I jump in the car in Christiansburg and either drive to New England or Orlando (visiting family) in one shot. It normally takes about 11 hours. In the best efficiency electric car, I understand that I will need to charge the car at least 3 times at 8 hours per charge. So I have effectively added two days each way for charging.
Meanwhile, my little civic gets 42 mpg at 70 mph.
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Did your power company give you a special rate? People at Tesla have told me that some companies will give you a discounted rate for going electric.
I can definitively say 'maybe.' I didn't know this was a thing until after I got the car. I am not sure if BGE participates but I intend to find out.
EDITED: BGE has a time of day rate they offer to EV owners, which jacks up the daytime price and reduces the nighttime price, assuming you'll be charging overnight.
I'm surprised BGE is even slightly reasonable about it. I'm still salty that I had to pay a "security deposit" for my electric bill.
Progress Energy in NC is absolutely no better about a security deposit.
Is Progress still around? I thought they got bought out by Duke Energy.
I worked with Progress in Florida on a professional level and they were the most inept group of people I've ever seen in my life. It's truly a wonder that anyone actually got electricity in their homes and stuff got repaired after it broke.
In the middle of the project Duke bought Progress and the Duke people came in and things got some better. There was one meeting where the Duke people met with us separate from the former Progress employees and basically told us they had no idea things were that bad with Progress and weren't sure how they functioned.
They call it "Progress Energy Duke" or "Duke Energy" around here. I usually read the former but hear the latter.
I haven't experienced much incompetence, except for their website. It's not great.
The whole concept of "I may cause damage to your electricity" is dumb to me.
No but you might skip a payment along the way or even stop paying altogether. Your security deposit necessity is determined based upon a credit check. If they don't make you pay a security deposit, it's because they don't see you as a high risk for not paying. It has nothing to do with you damaging anything. It's simply "security" for them when in the event that you stop making payments.
My pops has a Tesla - he gets a healthy tax return, can use any HOV lane at any time (except 66 in NOVA for some reason). He doesn't get a 'discount' per say from the power company, but he can set up the software in the car to charge during 'off hours' when the electric company charges a lower rate per watt. So, any electricity used during the daytime is charged at X$/Watt. Anything used from 10pm - 6am (or whatever time period BGE has determined) is billed at Y$/Watt - where Y <<< X. He says his electric bills might've fluctuated a couple dollars, but it's been so minimal he hasn't noticed.
This is probably what the lady meant, but obviously didn't feel like going into detail about it. That's great though. Electric has always intrigued me because I always felt like the electric bill would negate the gas savings but it doesn't seem to be the case.
For what it's worth, I think in March the car will be 3 years old. My dad is yet to pay anything beyond monthly installments of the loans. All maintenance is covered by Tesla - the car's software is routinely checking diagnostics of the car and sending updates to Tesla. When Tesla sees something strange, they schedule a time to drop off a rental at the house, and pick up my dad's car to take to their shop. So - it's not only the money you save in gas; there's no oil changes, no cost to maintenance, no dealing with mechanics, no issues with the transmission (since there is no transmission), insurance is less than it was for his last car (09 acura TSX). If you can afford the astronomical cost up front, it very well could save a bit of money and even more frustration over a 10+ year period.
Oh yeah - well my car tells me when I need gas.
But seriously. I never knew all that. That's incredible. I knew about oil and maintenance etc just from a 15 minute discussion with the Tesla folks at Tysons. They were awesome and insightful. I loved her response when we asked why the EPA gave a mileage estimate when theirs no gas. She simply said "The EPA feels like they need to meddle into everything." Tesla is changing the game. It will take awhile for everyone else to get caught up but oh what a time that'll be.
"The EPA feels like they need to meddle into everything" I dunno, I'd have another way of describing it besides meddling.
The EPA wanted it to be obvious to car shoppers that electric cars are vastly more efficient than gas cars and give them a familiar way of evaluating efficiency. Everybody is used to comparing car efficiency by MPG, but almost nobody knows that 27 kW-hr/100mi = 124 MPGe. Hell people in America can't be bothered to use gallons/100miles which is a more linear measure of efficiency. (for example 10 MPG to 15 MPG is a huge difference in efficiency compared to 40 MPG to 45 MPG, yet they're both changes by 5 MPG)
Now you might think Tesla would appreciate that effort by EPA to make it obvious how efficient their cars are, so why are they denigrating the EPA? Well when you see 100 MPGe next to a Tesla and 124 MPGe next to a BMW i3 you might realize Tesla isn't the be-all end-all of electric cars...
I'm sure she mentioned all that as well, this was almost two years ago and her comment about the EPA stuck with me more than the rest.
I had no idea that I was so interested in this until you posted it. Did you have to get a special outlet installed in your house? If so, how costly was it? How long is the battery supposed to last before it has to be replaced? How much does a new battery cost?
Not yet, the car comes with a 120V cord. But yeah, I am getting one installed. You really need a 240V charger to keep the charge time to a minimum (in my case, 7 hours max). I don't know how much the circuit will cost, but the charger itself is pretty cheap, since Chevy has a deal with Bosch to give Spark EV owners a $500 discount. Plus the state will rebate half the cost of the installation up to $900, so I should be able to get in pretty reasonable.
As to public charging, there are many charging stations out there, but only a few that provide the fast DC charging option. In Baltimore metro area we have maybe three of these but more on the way. With the fast charger you get 80 percent charged in 20 minutes. And most public charging stations are FREE. It's just finding one that offers convenience. I have a free one 1/2 mile from my house, which can hold me over in a pinch until I get my own 240V charger.
http://www.plugshare.com/
The battery has tested out at 200,000 cycles, which you can consider 200,000 days if you charge it once per day. And as to replacement cost, I'm leasing it for 39 months so it won't be an issue unless I decide to buy it out.
Even if you charge it 3 times per day, the battery tests out for 182 years until replacement, if I calculated that correctly...
I like it.
When I saw the headline, of course, I was thinking Tesla.
GM was late to the party but the Spark EV is just what I need. Inexpensive, 80+ mile range, optimized for local driving.
How much does the heater cost, in charge time, to run if 95 backs up in the winter? Or the A/c in summer?
How long is your commute?
The heater is the big variable. Turn up the heat, lose range. Hard to say by how much, but it is significant. Owners recommend you use the heated seats in lieu of it.
I don't have a commute per se as I am a consultant. I use the car for local driving and when I can do that it stretches the range substantially, up to the 100 mile range. If I was on the highway mostly, it would drop the range into the high 50s I think.
Wow. I thought the range was a lot bigger than 80 miles.
Does the owner know you took it?
what is this a car for ants? It needs to be at least three times as big!!
I DON'T CARE WHAT "THE DATE" SAYS!!!
Did it have a granola dispenser standard, or was that an option you had to pay extra for?
The interior is by Birkenstock.
Nice! I'm somewhat intrigued / jealous. After I run my current Accord into the ground, i'll be looking into Hybrids (most likely a second-hand Prius). However, that might not be for several more years, so i'm hoping electric technology really takes off by then!
I drive a Ford Fusion hybrid, and at the time when I was looking at hybrids a few years ago, there weren't exactly a surplus of non-prius hybrid options out there (read: I wanted a car that looked better than a Prius). Even in the few years that have passed, the number of options on the market now has ballooned. Next time I look, I'll have the Accord, Camry, Fusion, Malibu, and Sonata to look at in that class with hybrid options, plus a few more in the luxury bracket if I look more used.
Thanks for the info. I particularly don't care about how I look in a car nowadays haha, so I don't mind getting a Prius (or whatever is cheapest in the future). I'd rather buy a hybrid / electric without financing and then save a bunch hopefully on gas!
As it's my only car, I also needed something a little bit bigger than a Prius. Which also meant I had to limit my options to hybrids with fold-down back seats. Which pretty much left Fusion alone. But again, there will be tons more options in the future. I'm hearing the new Accord hybrid is getting pretty close to its epa estimates (I think 47 MPG), which, while not quite up to Prius levels, is a really good number.
For anyone who is interested, Subaru also has a hybrid these days, the Subaru XV CrossTrek Hybrid (what an annoyingly long name). It doesn't get anywhere close to the echelons of the Honda or Toyota hybrids, but it's EPA projections are 32 MPG because they run them cold for the tests. The actual car (or at least the one we have) gets around 40 MPG. It also has some other advantages (read: all wheel drive) which is an absolute must up on our muddy/snowy/rough-driving mountain.
Oh and also it has fold down seats just like it was some kind of impreza (because it is)
I don't have the hybrid version (because towing anything on the hybrid voids your warranty, and it's my AdventureMobile), but the Crosstrek is an excellent car. If you get the all-weather mats, the plastic/rubber crap even goes up the back of the fold-down seats, so your whole rear compartment is water resistant. The non-hybrid has pretty good gas mileage, too (even with the SkyBox on top, I still got 30+ highway on our last ski trip). Add snow tires and that thing is unstoppable.
(And yeah, it's basically an Impreza with 8 extra inches of clearance. I had a difficult time getting out of the one Impreza I sat in, but zero issues with the Crosstrek. Plus that just helps it blast through the snow that much easier.)
For efficiency, cost of operation, pay back it seems the diesels are hard to beat. You'll pay less up front and get as good or better mileage (45-50 on many) and diesel fuel price has come WAY down.
As a Volkswagen fan, I definitely looked into diesel options closely as well. At the time (and maybe still, I'm unsure) the additional cost of diesel fuel for the same MPGs my Fusion gets (I hover around 46, personally) made it not as cost effective to go diesel.
Diesel is a good alternative to gas but doesn't really have a clear edge against hybrids except in utlilty/towing applications. Both have more expensive drivetrains. Both get great MPG. But hybrids typically run on regular gas which still costs less than diesel fuel.
Since Hondas are indestructible, by the time you do that Tesla might have their Model X out, which is supposed be starting at $35k. Then you won't have to buy a Prius.
Or move to San Fransico.
I was going to be in awe if it was a Tesla. That is my dream car. I think they are the only people that have gotten the electric car right. All others I would be embarrassed driving. But that's just me. Once I can afford a Tesla I will be joining you in the electric movement. Just give me a little time.
There is an EV version of the VW Golf.. which is quite a nice vehicle. Much more substantial than a Spark or Leaf. Range is ~80 miles IIRC.
Upon further inspection, it was found that it's just a regular, gas-powered Golf.
I want a Tesla soooo bad. Just between the performance, lack of emissions, and service that comes with it, such a good vehicle. I may have to hope for a used version in a couple more years. Would love to pair it with some solar panels and Tesla's power wall, would be damn near free to run.
Stay OUT of the left hand lane and stay IN the "Peoples Republic of Maryland'. Nancy Pelosi will be sending you the password to your new club soon.
Very cool! Small, but for a daily commuter, so what?
How's the acceleration?
Given this is a subcompact car, the acceleration is MASSIVE. The motors are very high torque, and it's delivered all the way up to 40 mph. The figures I've read are 0-60 in under 7 seconds. The Spark EV, if nothing else, is getting very high marks for performance.
See, this is a reason to get one right there.
Ladies and gentleman, we have officially entered the offseason
Good call on the lease, which is something I almost never say. Electric vehicles are really the exception, for me, because of how fast the technology is going to advance by the time that your lease is up.
Not to mention the cost of battery replacement, which will be significant and inevitable.
I got the lease because I am not sure what Chevy will do with the Spark EV after they roll out the Bolt. I think the Spark is a compliance car (for California) even though they say it isn't. We'll see.
Also, way not as cool, but close in nerdiness, I did get a 3d printer for Christmas.
Did you print your own electric car?
Yes, but it's very tiny. Finding a gas nozzle to fit that thing is an engineering design challenge that I had not anticipated.
Can't you just print one now?
Oh, absolutely. In fact, I did. I started it yesterday and it should be done printing on Wednesday.
April 5, 2017.
Did it come with the requisite "Coexist", "pet lover", and "Hillary 2016" bumper stickers? And are you still eating meat?
You're working with outdated info. It's Bernie 2016.
The mention of the Coexist bumper sticker made me chuckle heartily because it is so prevalent on hybrids and full electrics.
I have never met someone with one of those bumper stickers that is anything approximating reasonable or tolerant of opposing viewpoints. Which is really a shame, because the concept of those stickers is one I can get behind.
My favorite is when you see a "COEXIS" sticker (where the owner cut off the "t" before putting it on)
Have not personally seen that one. Had a similar experience in reverse, though. On my old Ford Ranger, I had a sticker on the back window that was a wheel, each spoke had the symbol of a different religion. The cross was a Constantine cross, with the chi rho superimposed over the crucifix. (Looks like a P with an X over it.)
Constantine crosses are pretty common throughout Christianity, but not commonly used in the southeast. I got a lot of flack from people thinking that out of all the religious symbols, the cross was "X-ed out."
Sadly, you will also hear this misunderstanding with reference to the abbreviation "X-mas." The chi-rho was a symbol for "Christ" long before the imaginary "war on Christmas."
The coexist bumper stickers make me so mad. If I am driving behind you we are, by definition, coexisting.
I can see why that would infuriate you.
/s
It came with a MENSA membership.
Nice!
Makes sense...I figured it was some kind of trendy cult.
It came with a MENSA membership.
Oh, I thought only the Tesla's came with that.
The regular electric cars just come with a one-year subscription to NPR.
and one of these?
Have car companies improved the cost to battery replacement? Have companies improved the energy cost to manufacture the batteries? Until those two things happen it feels like it's a net loss to buy outright a full electric car.
I am an average sized man and I feel like this riding around in my buddies electric car.
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I'm looking for investors for my idea for an electric car that can also use natural Methane gases from the driver and passenger seats to fuel the vehicle.
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In other words a car that is run off farts... who's with me!!
Thanks for doing your part!
I would just say "Why? What are you hoping to accomplish?"
Not to be a buzz-kill or too pedantic, but look at the environmental harm caused by mining the lead or lithium used in the batteries. They simply destroy the earth with those vast open pit mines, and the release of heavy metal tailings.
And where does your electricity come from? A coal-fired plant? Snatural gas? Probably not wind, where the blades are like Cuisinarts for birds, or solar, which doesn't take up vast acres of land, shading it from the sun. Or maybe hydro where we block streams from fish migration in some cases.
so what good are you really doing? All energy (that we use) requires being liberated from some stored form into usable heat. I'm not saying that running your vehicle on electricity does no good. I'm just saying it does come with a cost.
Yes, I drive an Accord 90 miles per day 3 days a week. I've heard the whining and crying about conservation and pollution since grade-school in the 70s. I'm kind of burned out on the whole topic.
Just conserve as best you can. Consolidate your trips. Turn down your thermostats. Drinks lots of bourbon and have lots of dirty sex to stay warm.
Oh. be sure to buy a car from a company that *required* a federal bailout because they make inferior products and have sub-par management. Don't buy from Ford who managed on their own.
Do I sound bitter? I feel bitter. This is what happens when the football season ends. I try basketball, but it just isn't the same.
How many more days until kickoff?
Have a Snickers, Nancy.
You're not yourself when you're hungry.
The thing I take from everything you've said is that you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. We're all on this big rock together and we might as well coexist and be nice to each other because it's all going to end one day for each of us.
So it does come with a Coexist sticker. /s
deleted: ehh..too political..NVM
I'm waiting for VTGM to issue a warning about politics. I kind of felt weird commenting on the coexist sticker joke.
I'm watching. But I've also been too busy fixing my furnace. So blanket warning, tongue-in-cheek is cool, just mind yourselves. There is an interesting technological and scientific discussion that can happen, which I'm hoping emerges.
VTGuitarMan emerges to post on TKP....
yeah I typed it up in a frenzy and hit "Post" and then realized that I probably shouldn't open that can of worms here. I changed it as quickly as I could hoping to minimize the audience. Sometimes my impulses get the best of me. Oops.
The net environmental benefit for most hybrids and electric vehicles is indeed overstated, and some people buy them just to feel good. But there is one truth underlying it all - fossil fuels are finite. It will take a technological overhaul to bypass this issue. Otherwise, sometime in the next 50-70 years (IIRC, don't quote me on it), we're going to pull the last drop of decomposed dino out of the Earth, followed by a collective, "so what now?" The technology for batteries, turbines, solar panels, etc. needs to improve, but these are all emerging areas. I, for one, would like to see more people using that technology so it can develop under real-world use and testing. Otherwise, we're pretty much screwed.
Arnold Schwarzenneger perhaps said it best (paraphrasing) - put all your notions and opinions on efficiency, climate change, etc. out the window. What do you do when you no longer have gasoline? You'd damn well better have a plan.
I think he said "GET TO THE CHAAPAAAAA" best.
I think people get hybrids / electrics to stop the rate of pollution to the environment. Considering how bad air pollution is not only here but the rest of the world, if we can do even a little bit to help the environment, then why not? Yes getting the aformentioned types of cars isn't going to automatically solve every problem, but every little bit helps - so why not?
Nah, It was "I'll Be Back"
Who's yoh daahdee and waaht das he dooo?
(Warning: going off on a bit of a tangent here) As you likely suspected, you're right in principle, but probably not on the details. Whenever you see a published estimate stating that there is X amount of a particular resource left on Earth, they're almost always referring to reserves, which is a term that has a very specific meaning in the natural resources business. The word "reserve" means an identified resource that has been adequately explored and quantified and is economically exploitable. There is a lot of oil/coal/gas/etc. still in the ground that we know exists (and almost certainly much that we haven't found yet) that isn't tallied as a reserve because it hasn't been adequately explored or current extraction technologies and/or market conditions do not allow for profitable extraction. A good example would be the shale oil that they currently produce a lot of up in North Dakota. Thirty years ago, geologists knew that stuff was up there, but it wasn't considered a reserve because nobody had developed the technology to get it out of the ground and into your car in a cost-effective manner. Ditto for oilfields way out under the ocean floor. The speed at which we can develop affordable alternatives will dictate just how many years worth of dino remains we really have left. If we can't figure out a way to bring down the cost of alternative sources like wind, solar, tidal, etc., or develop something new, like fusion, then I thnk we'll see that our fossil fuel resources will last a lot longer than the 50-70 years (or whatever the official estimate is) that is currently being estimated.
Fair point. I guess my overarching argument is, anything we pull out of the ground is finite. We're on a 5 billion year clock (per the expected life of the sun); I am willing to bet fossil fuels go away a few billion years before that happens. Gotta figure out a way to exist!
A few observations:
Energy is life. Discoveries of cheaper energies have had enormously positive impacts on the vector of civilization with remarkably little in the way of negative impacts that hasn't been remediable.
If you think we've got a 5 billion year clock, I've got a meteor to sell you.
If we were to take full advantage of the cheap and abundant energy available, we could get off this rock with its finite resources and the completely natural extinction event that comes every few hundred thousand years, give or take an eon.
But instead, we talk about bumper stickers and football and bourbon.
So really, a win-win. /s
Yup, that's what I was agreeing with you about. The point I was trying to illustrate is that it's misleading for the experts to state that we have enough of X resource to last Y years. It creates an illusion of scarcity that often leads to poor decision making. We should absolutely be looking for the next big thing (tidal energy and fusion reactors, please), but forsaking the readily available resources we already have in favor of wind turbines that require more energy to produce (by some estimates) than they can generate in their lifetimes seems foolish to me.
*steps off soapbox before this thread gets even further derailed
Speaking of, has anyone else been following the Wendelstein 7-X stellarator? The test run on December 10 successfully produced a helium plasma, and trials to produce a hydrogen plasma (the main objective of the project) will begin sometime this month.
Even if the Wendelstein 7-X never proves to be an efficient reactor (and it doesn't promise to be) if the trial is a success it will prove stellarator technology is viable and could lead to a breakthrough in fusion reactor technology. Stellarators show a lot more promise than tokamak reactors, but have historically been considered such an absolute bitch to construct (Wendelstein 7-X has one million construction hours) that they were considered essentially impossible to construct a short while ago.
........I get jokes.
Edit: largely repeating what others have already said, catching up from not reading a lot of TKP over Christmas/New Years business and hadn't read ahead far enough.
When I was in elementary school 20+ years ago I remember being taught that we would run out of fossil fuels in about 25-35 years, so I tend to take these predictions with a bit of a grain of salt. While we will obviously run out eventually if we don't develop alternatives, between better technology in mining/drilling to making more resources recoverable and more efficient technology for the use of fossil fuels in vehicles, power plants, etc. I think we'll easily have transitioned to other power sources before the run out. If demand is high enough and supply low enough to make it economically feasible, companies will spend the money to go after resources that are harder to recover. And lack of supply will cause prices to rise leading to increased conservation.
I personally lean towards increasing our reliance on nuclear power, especially in 30-50 years when fusion reactors are projected start to operating commercially.
Even if the environment doesn't enter into the conversation, the economic incentives to purchase an electric vehicle make it a very enticing option, if your driving needs can be met with the limitations inherent to them.
But as for your original question, the math's been done. Even if you power an electric vehicle by a coal-fired plant, assuming one charge per day, the electric car results in fewer greenhouse gases than a comparable gas-powered internal combustion engine.
Yes, greenhouse gases. But how do you compare pollution from greenhouse gases to pollution from lead/mercury/whatever at the mines? The answer is that you don't. I had a professor of advanced vehicle technologies at tech tell us all about how much of a mess making batteries is and how bad it is for the environment and that you couldn't say pound for pound that they had less impact than a high efficiency diesel. Then he went on to tell us he drives a Prius because a) it's cheaper for him directly and b) any time you can push the pollution production up the line (suppliers rather than consumers) you consolidate the problem and it's easier to address. You can implement a strategy at a single coal plant to reduce emissions a heck of a lot easier than on every individual car.
Very good point. But then why not buy electric cars that'll then presumably push the pollution problem off of the track of big oil / dirty coal and onto the battery folks instead? Consolidate the problem with battieries and perhaps take oil / coal out of the equation (well...as much as possible).
Had a similar conversation with a professor (chemistry, maybe?) about how godawful for the environment photovoltaic cells are to manufacture. The conversation ended with him arguing a shift to solar is still a net plus for the planet because, if properly manufactured, one photovoltaic cell lasts decades, with no further pollution to the planet beyond the manufacture, as compared to coal-fired power plants, which are continuously polluting.
That's always been my rule of thumb. As long as it lasts long enough, anything battery powered is going to be better than something run on an ICE, because on on hand you've got environmental impact during construction, and on the other you have pervasive and persistent environmental impact.
EV are cheap to operate, if nothing else. 15,000 miles per year in a 25mpg car will run you $1,200 at current gas prices ($2/gal). EV for 15,000 miles per year would be around $540.
Considering gas prices are much more volatile than electric rates, that gap is only going to widen.
Toss in no oil changes, no air filter, no fuel filter, no timing belts, etc and regular maintenance is less on an EV too.
In my case, electricity is either 9 cents/kwh (from solar at home) or free (from public chargers). So operating costs are going to be next to nothing.
Uhhh, cheaper maybe?
My dad drives a prius, he gives less than two shits about the environment. In the 80's, he drove a Chevy Citation (look it up, ugly as hell). He just doesn't want to spend money on gas.
Your dad is my kind of guy!
I care about the environment and our impending fossil fuel situation... but basically this. When I bought my hybrid, I was driving 80 miles a day, 5 days a week (fuel was also more expensive at the time too). And I'm about to be doing much more than that for awhile. As I was doing my research, I calculated that it would take me less than a year to save back the additional upfront cost of buying the hybrid Fusion over a normal one, and everything since then has been additional savings for me.
Some cars aren't even more expensive off the lot for the hybrid versions, such as the Lincoln MKZ.
The difference being in the energy losses- large powerplants make more power from the same amount of fossil fuel as your car, since the scale, lack of weight restriction, and fewer size restrictions allows engineers to design a much more efficient system. So while the electricity to drive an electric car may indeed come from a non-renewable source at the powerplant, it's still more efficient than the internal combustion engine in a regular car.
I had to do a double-take...did anybody else read it as "Electric Chair"?
I sure did and I was about to have a whole boat-load of questions
I recently watched an old Top Gear where they built their own electric car. Very funny.
That is one of my favorite episodes of one of my favorite shows.
If the environment is such a concern then we should all go back to the ultimate climate friendly form of transportation!
here are your two choices:
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Or:
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Sidenote: I completely forgot Halle Berry was in this movie and animal fur never looked so good as an outfit!
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When you need a tow, let me know... i'm in the area and am always willing to help a fellow Hokie.
Don't have a tow truck, though, but more than happy to buy you a beer.
Screw the natural resource countries who have been holding the world hostage and recently been indiscriminately terrorizing them. Well unless you count us by proxy. In which case, screw them, here's to us!
Seriously, congrats. If more of us bought, we could start to push electric vehicles over the adoption curve or to the repair shop whatever is around that proverbial bend. If its an adoption curve, then heck yes. A world of non petrol fueled religious animosity is surely a safer one.
I struggle to grasp the cost advantage. My gas powered compact gets right at 40 mpg. Over a 200k lifespan of the car, it will cost me roughly $15k in gas ($3/gal). The difference in sticker price is roughly $10k. So even if electricity is free, it takes the life of the car to pay back the difference. Also, a huge difference, I can hop in my gas powered car and drive across the country if I want to and never have to charge a battery. For me, the range needs to go up and the price come down before I'm in the market.
There's always the Chevy Volt (or other plug-in hybrids) for those who want electric around town and gas for road trips.
Also, you can always find a stripped down econobox to ruin the value proposition of an EV.
But take a look at the VW eGolf... fantastic, well equipped hatchback that is only about $3,000 more than a similarly equipped Golf 1.8T *before* tax incentives and gets 126 city / 105 hwy vs 25 city / 36 hwy for the 1.8T range is 83 miles so you aren't taking it on any long road trips, but it's a comfortable, well equipped car for daily commuting.
you can hop in an electric car and drive across the country just fine... if you live in Luxembourg.
There's a bunch of charging stations and super charging stations popping up now. http://www.plugshare.com/ shows standard and "high power" charging stations that can recharge a dead battery in 45 minutes (not ideal, but a start). Plus, how often are you driving cross-country? For most of us, the answer is never, but even if that did happen, you could rent a car.
The cost savings is not having to do anything but rotate your tires. I believe Tesla guarantees their batteries for 10 years, and I believe the technology will continue to improve where they aren't so expensive to replace.
But to each his/her own. I got to drive a Tesla Model S a few years ago for a news segment and I've been a fan ever since. I bet the BMWs are nice too - haven't had the chance to drive one of those.
You lost me when your reply to my post about cost savings includes BMW and Tesla.
Seriously though, I get that there are many different reasons an electric car can be appealing, it just doesn't appeal to me and my circumstances.
fair enough.
This is kind of a tangent off of your post but it's something I recently found about my hybrid that I wasn't anticipating. Due to the car's ability to recoup energy during the braking process, something all hybrids and EV vehicles do, the wear on the actual brake pads is almost negligible. I have 66,000 miles on my car and the pads look brand new.
Just an interesting tidbit I wanted to share.
Tesla did have plans for a battery 'swap' - you'd pull up to a station, and for $80 they'd switch out your battery in 5 minutes (basically the cost and time for a very large tank of gas), but they quickly determined that there's just not enough people driving Tesla's at the moment for it to be cost effective.
All sources of power on earth are ultimately derived from the sun, even wind and nuclear. Fossil fuels take a long time to develop. Lets go with solar as directly as possible.
What about geothermal energy?
Tide would derive from gravity with the moon impacting that most here, magnetism within each mass.
There is great power in the movement of interstellar bodies. Having satellites orbiting gas giants generating power is something we'll probably not see in our lifetime but it'll happen.
I love the torque you get from an electric motor, makes it a ton of fun to punch it at a stoplight, but the only way full electric it going to make it as a technology is if the markets are manipulated by the goverment (as they are right now with tax breaks and subsidies).
I would go into the whole energy density conversation with regards to batteries (aside: the best batteries don't have the energy density of wood), but it seems most of you are still unaware that fossil fuels are not "fossils" at all. We can grow algae fairly quickly so that it can be refined into fuel. We never have to worry about running out, only that currently it is more expensive than getting it from the ground. FYI: Virginia Tech is at the forefront of research into making Biogasoline economically viable.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algae_fuel
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biogasoline
My biggest problem is there are several times per year when I jump in the car in Christiansburg and either drive to New England or Orlando (visiting family) in one shot. It normally takes about 11 hours. In the best efficiency electric car, I understand that I will need to charge the car at least 3 times at 8 hours per charge. So I have effectively added two days each way for charging.
Meanwhile, my little civic gets 42 mpg at 70 mph.