Obviously there has been a ton of conversation on TKP regarding Buzz's departure, the coaching search, and Mike Young hire. I was curious to look at traffic numbers, because the site was bumping. On Sunday alone there was over a 300% increase in traffic (pageviews and unique users) year-to-year. That's over 10,000 unique users hitting the site. That's on par with a typical weekday during the football season.
I looked at registered users (those who post and comment) over a trailing 24 hours period. 774 accessed TKP (about an order of magnitude less, which is par for the course). 56% of those users (436) are not TKPC members. Over the same period, there were 693 comments. 57.8% of those (401) were published from non-TKPC members.
To me, that combined with the declined rate of growth of TKPC is disappointing. And it's time for me to re-think my level of commitment with the site (publishing and editing 99% of articles that appear on TKP, writing content, doing all the software engineering) and who that work serves. At one point I was naive enough to believe this could be a self-sustained endeavor, but after three years, I've been proven otherwise.
Comments
Joe, I really appreciate your efforts, which is why I just renewed for my 3rd or 4th year. People won't pay for stuff that they can get for free. My only advice is to put more stuff behind the paywall. That will drive away traffic, as you know. Will it lessen your burden? Will you feel more pressure to produce for those people who DO contribute? Probably.
Again, I appreciate your efforts. I post rarely because I don't have much to say. I consume the news. I rarely read comments because I don't really care what most people have to say!
My only thought is maybe you could do some off-the-web stuff, like a meet-the-French symposium where we eat drink beer, eat wings, and review game film. Sounds like more of a time-sink for you. But I'd pay. Maybe raffle off a fishing trip with French? I'd pay for that too.
Agreed here. Put more behind the paywall.
You'll get blowback, but the people who aren't contributing aren't paying your bills. At a certain point, you need to look out for yourself first and foremost and do what is right to you and your family. Believe you me, right now I am dealing with being in a situation stuck in a very frustrating job with horrible management and no direction because, well it pays the bills, and with a 1 year old at home, I need those bills paid. If this was a mental suck as well as a financial suck? Nah, no way I'd put up with it anywhere near as long as you have here, and for that I commend you. But eventually, you gotta look out for you.
And conversely, what I've found out is people will complain when they don't get their free, for free.
I just realized I've been running this website for 10+ years and, yeah, what the hell have I been doing with myself.
I'm going golfing.
Have fun and shoot well.
Put a full pay wall up, it is just a good business move if that is what you are looking for. I work in publishing and most major publications are moving towards this model. For example, all Conde Nast (20ish brands) properties by the end of the year will be behind a paywall.
I, too, appreciate your efforts. My spirit sank when I read the discouraged tone in your comments.
There was another site from a few years ago, Tailgate Fever, that was similar to The Key Play. The humor and different way of looking at Tech sports was just my style. It ceased operations from lack of funds or someone's lifestyle changing.....I never knew. I was sorely disappointed, but then I found The Key Play.
The combination of humor and sound sports knowledge of your site is fantastic. Except when it gets a little personal, the reader's comments and exchanges are wonderful. This site is infinitely better than le little sword for many obvious reasons, but the design, tone and purpose of TKP are due to you. Thank you.
Maybe a corporate sponsor would step up to help. Whatever you decide, do not be discouraged....you bring/brought pleasure to others.
Leg for Tailgatefever
I remember that site, but I think it was more or less one person doing a weekly write up if I remember correctly, but it was hilarious
I, too, am a tailgatefever refugee. I briefly lived over at firebryanstinespring (thanks IllinoisHokie!) then found TKP. Man, if someone could start back up the Hokie update from TGF, that's be Awesome. There's some similar content here but a slightly different flavor. Sometimes, I use the way back machine and read some of them. So good.
Losing TKP would be like losing TGF all over again except worse. I was a consumer over there and here I'm pet of a community. Also, TGF bridged my graduation and I hadn't yet realized how much I missed the community of Hokies I had at tech. TKP has filled that void to some extent.
Good pet.
Anybody ever read The North End Zone? They were a brief favorite of mine earlier this decade pre-TKP.
Yep. Bounced around from TSL, FBS, Gobbler Country, and The NEZ before finding TKP.
Do you see spikes in membership joins when you put an article behind a paywall? Would it help to hide a few things that you normally wouldn't put behind a paywall and see if you get new members? No harm in giving it a shot.
I wonder how many of those were users like me who get logged out constantly (due to your cookies settings, I know) and only log in when we hit the paywall or want to comment. I'm unauthenticated for 90%+ of my browsing on TKP because of that.
Interesting that that matches up with the percentage of users browsing the site, but I still think my first point is relevant. Not everyone who views a page leaves a comment, people comments an equal amount, etc.
I know you've reached out to the community in the past for help moderating and for content authors. Can you also crowdsource content editing and software engineering?
I'm sure there are members here who would love to read an article before it's published in exchange for fixing awkward wording and missing periods. I know there's other things to consider besides grammar (would a layman understand these football terms, is this information okay to publish publicly, etc.), but I think funneling 100% of editing through you is too much to ask.
Re: coding the site, even if you don't make the source code public, you could still benefit from having some trusted devs (ahem) help contribute to a private repo. And there's likely a bunch of VTCS students/grads here who would be happy to contribute for free.
I would probably be willing to help with any development on the site.
If it was open source I'd be down to contribute some stuff as I have time. I don't have the time to commit to being a dev though.
This was my thought exactly. 90% of the time I'm on TKP I'm on my phone which seems to get logged out every time I open the page. I log in when I hit the pay wall and very rarely comment on anything although I do enjoy reading the comments and forum posts. I actually came here tonight specifically after reading the Twitter thread earlier. I have been a follower since the first post I saw on Twitter and a subscriber to TKPC since the first day it went live (at least since the first day I saw the post on Twitter). I have even been to a few of the tailgates and really enjoyed my time there and meeting some of the faces behind the usernames.
I agree that more, if not all, content should be behind the wall if that's what makes it worth sticking with. You may see total users drop but paid subscriptions would surely increase. I would offer to assist in some way but unless the site needs HVAC, I'm not the guy.
Tonight showed me how much I follow this community. I was scrambling around on Twitter looking for your posts and the many comments that feed off of them. Although it wasn't a Tech game, I realized it wasn't quite as fun to watch without the commentary that would usually come with an event like this. My wife even rolls her eyes every time she watches games with me because I spend as much or more time on Twitter and TKP as I do watching the game itself.
Whatever happens, I hope you find a way to make this thing worthwhile. I've learned more about football, basketball, and VT in general from being here than I did in my entire life before joining. Thanks for everything so far and good luck in whatever you decide to do going forward.
the site might not, but Joe's house may be in need of an upgrade.
Psst.... Joe, I think I've found how to make this site very rewarding for you!
Ha. If he lived in the NRV I would help him out however I could. With the distance the best thing I can probably offer is free advice if he ever has any problems.
I would think you can track repeat visitors with a cookie and should be able to tell that a TKPC member is on the site but not logged in. That may help.
For non-TKPC perspective, if you want that:
What drove me to this site originally, however many years ago it was now, was the fact that it was free. T$L costs money and I just can't justify spending it to read about Tech athletics. As much as I love visiting this site (easily top 5 most frequented sites for me), I still don't think I can justify spending money to join TKPC at this point. It's not personal and I appreciate the hell out of the community and insight you (Joe) give us on here, but I've got more pressing financial obligations that have to take precedence. I wish I could support TKP and Joe, I just can't. I'm almost certain I'm not the only one in this boat.
I am in the same boat. I'll read an article every now and then but mostly scroll through the comments to see what's new or scroll through gameday threads to see the realtime reaction to the Hokies game. If there was a lite membership, I would pay buy cant justify 84/year.
more people in this boat than fans at LOLUVA's spring festival.
(can we still make this joke?)
Only if you're a TKPC member.
I think we can make this work, Joe!
You're not naive. But to flog a deceased horse for the millionth time, if you offered monthly payments, I'M GIVING YOU AN 800% ASSPOCKET GUARANTEE THE NUMBERS WOULD SHOOT UP.
Personally, I have had a ton of things going on, including going from two incomes to one, that have kept me from getting my key back. It's hard to set aside $80 when you're so thin already.
And I know, BUT I COULD JUST SQUIRREL AWAY A FEW BUCKS A MONTH AND BE AT THAT $80 IN NO TIME. I know this. It doesn't need to be reiterated.
But when you're on a shoestring budget, there is a huge difference between putting forth the effort to save a few bucks a month to spend on a website, especially when the end of the month rolls around, and having it come out automatically at the beginning of the month. If your goal is to join TKPC and support this great community on a shoestring budget, when the latter happens, it is so much easier to make the rest of the month work than being tight at the end of the month and seeing that $20 in the TKPC cookie jar and needing it.
I love this place, and even if there were no articles behind the paywall, I would be happy to support it in any way I can. And maybe I am just shitty with money, but I know for a fact that would help me come back to TKPC. Others have clamored for this option as well. Maybe they're in similar situations. Maybe not. But we've been telling you for a loooooooong time "We love you. We want to give you more money. Here's what will help us give you more money."
Stop filling your pockets full of whiskey and you could buy several TKPC memberships. /s/s/s/s/s/s/s/s
I agree with monthly subscriptions.
Ass pocket hasn't been full of whiskey since Black Friday.
I agree with this 800%.
With four kids (one in college), a mortgage and 3 car payments, cell phone bills, etc., my monthly discretionary income runs just over $200 a month. So many other things get in the way every month that coming up with the $80 to join just doesn't happen. I've wanted to make that move for awhile - but every time I get to the end of the month, there's not enough left to come up with the annual cost all at once. A monthly number would be much easier on that budget, and I probably would join pretty quickly.
This comment, right here, reflects the crux of the matter regarding the stagnation/regression of TKP. I have been a proponent of this idea since TKPC became a thing. It has never gained traction. In fact, there honestly isn't much different about TKPC today vs the day I joined (which was, I think, the first or second day it was a thing). The stated goal of TKPC was to hire a dedicated beat reporter to cover VT sports, with a target of 1,000 members to fund that. After years of membership hovering in the mid 600s, it's clear that that goal is unattainable using the current model.
So what is the current goal of TKPC? Still to hire a beat reporter? I can't argue it possibly could be, because we have a large enough sample size to demonstrate it won't meet that mark. But has that goal been replaced with another? In essence, where is the money going? What am I buying for by $84?
If the goal still is to hire a dedicated reporter, the business model must change. But I haven't seen any eagerness to explore that sort of change. So we're kind of stuck in limbo, not really sure where we're headed, but also not really certain we're off course because we aren't completely certain of where we're supposed to be headed.
MONTHLY PAYMENTS!
In fact, you'd probably get even more money from me if you went monthly. Can't speak for everyone else, but if you said $10/month, I'd say ok.
Joe has routinely said this is not feasible because he needs to know what funds are coming in so he can adequately plan and hire people as needed. Monthly payments can be canceled at any time, and when they are, he's hung out high and dry. And he knows enough to realize if he went this way, a lot of the people who are members now would drop to monthly only to cancel subscriptions when its not football season, in the end actually costing him money in the long run.
If you feel that badly about joining, do the work yourself. Set aside some money every month and save up to buy the subscription annually. And if your money is so tight you can't do that, then you probably can't afford the subscription in the first place.
Genuine question...Why couldn't there be a one year subscription with monthly recurring payments? You sign up and agree to pay the whole year, just in installments.
"monthly installment billing system would be different" was the answer if i recall
Make the monthly fees for football season equate to the majority of a TKPC membership since that drives the most traffic. Make it $13 monthly from August to January, make it $5 monthly from February to July.
Let me offer some further perspective to add to my comment above.
I've been here almost as long as you, Alum07, and I was originally a TKPC member before Joe put anything behind a paywall. I have already said, and shown, I will happily contribute to this site if able regardless of whether or not anything is behind a paywall. I would hope that by my comment above you all realize I'm not just cruising here because I don't want to contribute. There will always be those soaking up as much free content as possible. This comment isn't about them.
Every time this comes up, there are a ton of TKPC members that dog on non-contributors, and many of you say put (insert feature here) behind the paywall. I'm sure many of you mean no harm by these comments, but let me explain how they read to me each and every time this comes up. This will be one of those if the shoe fits scenarios. So, if it fits, wear it. If not, let what I am about to say roll off you like an OL flying off a DL swimming his way to a sack.
Let me make this clear, Joe, this comment ain't about you. You have to do what is right for you, your family, and your bottom line. If you want to put any of the features of this site or the whole damn thing behind a paywall, that's fine. It's your baby. It's your prerogative. You have to do what is best for you and yours. If you made the entire thing a pay site, without protest, I would pack up my AssPocket, wish you the best, and I'd be back down the road when I can afford it.
But the rest of you have to realize many of your comments come across elitist as fuck. When you talk of locking this out...locking that out...you're talking about locking me out of one of the greatest senses of community I have. One that I have been a part of longer than many of you. When you dismiss someone so quickly for not contributing, you're essentially saying, "I got mine. Fuck you." And you're doing that when many of us would love to give, but struggle to make it work.
Again, I'm talking about comments from the community, not Joe. It's his ball. He can take it, and go home if he wants or needs.
Some of you may not have any of these sentiments behind any of your comments. Hell, maybe none of you do and I'm just frustrated I can't be a part of the club. Maybe I'm projecting things onto you, that you don't intend. Just realize how your comments read sometimes. Especially, to someone that would love to contribute, but can't make it work right now.
Edit: I sincerely apologize for the shitshow this caused. This was an earnest attempt to illustrate how things can be seen from those in my shoes. I do not, however, apologize for any of my responses to Alum07.
Some free advice to the rest of the community: If you aren't paying someone's bills or fucking them, you don't have any right to comment on their finances. Especially, if you know nothing of their situation. I could elaborate on mine further, but I didn't even feel great about putting some of the things out there that I already have. I just wanted to help others see things from my point-of-view.
I'm a passionate person. If you have spent more than 20 seconds on TKP, you already know this. It's not hard to pull my chain. I don't like it, but I don't really know how to change it. Even if I wasn't so easily riled up, I still would not stand for some of the things said and manner in which they were said.
I didn't come from much and I have busted my ass to get where the fuck I am. I won't stand for ANYONE to talk down to me. You wanna talk that way to me, you come and lace up my boots and then we'll talk.
I don't want your pity and I don't want your handouts. But I appreciate the offer, GeoHokie54.
I have never been well-off or even close to it, but I am a lot better off than where I was and have worked my ass off for every goddamned thing I have. And I will be damned if someone's gonna write myself or my financial situation off.
The available balance in my bank account ain't pretty, but I have excellent credit and with the exception of current bills on which I have never defaulted, I have paid back every red cent I have ever borrowed except $300 that I borrowed from my grandfather years ago to pay my car payment when I was laid off. The only reason I didn't pay that back was because he ripped up the check I wrote to pay him back in front of me. Grandfathers are kind of awesome like that.
Look, I can understand being frustrated, but we've been down this path for what, 3 years now of Joe trying to get people to join, and we're still barely 2/3 toward the goal he set 3 years ago? When the owner literally starts talking about shutting the site down, which, in case you missed it, he kinda did above in the OP to this thread, you can't fault people for suggesting to put more content behind the pay wall to force others to join. If you're asking me which I would prefer
a) put more stuff behind paywall to force people to join TKPC
or
b) shut the site down
Yeah, I'm going to choose option a. And of course the whole "but just open up a monthly subscription" option always comes up, and its always met with the same rejection from Joe for the same reasons, and yet we keep going over and over it. Its cost prohibitive to him to go that route. It ain't happening, so stop asking for it. If you want to give, be a big boy or a big girl and budget your own finances to handle it, and if you can't, well then you can't join.
If it comes across as 'fuck you I got mine', at least on my end, my apologies, that's never been the intent. I just don't want TKP to go away, and year by year I am watching the Joe's joy of running this site drain from him through his comments here. And a lot of it has to do with he thought the community would be willing to financially kick in less than $100 per person for a year to him to help run a site he's taken time and money out of his own life and his own pocket to run. And I suspect its an especially swift kick to the balls to see many people without that key openly discussing shows and sites that you darn well know they are paying for on this site.
I mean hell, he deals with a major backlash any time he tries to put something behind the paywall on here from people who have no intention of ever joining. Put yourself in his shoes and think of all the time and money he's put into this site only to effectively get slapped in the face when asking for the community to give something back and then see the backlash every time he tries to encourage giving. If I were him, I would have shut this site down a while ago and never looked back.
Telling someone to be a big boy about their finances when you don't know half of their story? Way to show your true colors.
You can take that apology and shove it up your ass. If you don't pay my bills or sleep in my bed, you can kindly go fuck yourself about my finances.
Also, I have never complained a bit about something being put behind a paywall. I have always seen it as Joe doing what he needs to do to keep the lights on. I have thought about what he has put into this site. That's why I was a TKPC member before any of this shit was behind a paywall.
I will gladly, GLADLY take any and all downvotes for the person attack on Alum07.
Nah. That guy's a prick. We all know it.
I remember not too long ago he was a Carolina Panthers fan. Now he is an Eagles fan. Fuck that.
Love you, too, Pookie
If you can't financially set aside roughly $80 total over 12 months then you probably shouldn't be trying to scrounge up the money to afford a TKPC subscription and should use that money elsewhere. My opinion is that would be financially irresponsible of you to subscribe at that point, and that's ok.
Just don't be upset about the perks and advantages those who can subscribe get.
I do use that money elsewhere. I'm simply saying what would help myself and others be able to make the subscription work in their budget and get Joe and TKP more revenue.
And I'm not upset about the perks of those who can subscribe. I appreciate the fact that they can.
I'm upset about jackasses like you talking down to those of us that can't afford it.
I'm doubly upset about you talking out of both sides of your fucking mouth by apologizing that you didn't mean things that way, but then lecturing me about my fucking finances.
Ok, I apologize for the "be a big boy and big girl" part.
I just find it interesting you come on here whining that there is no monthly subscription, and then when the reasoning is made that its not going to happen for reasons already explained and to maybe do the budgeting yourself you fly off the handle telling me to "fuck myself" over the suggestion. And this is after whining about people having a "fuck you I got mine" attitude toward putting things behind a paywall.
But ok, you do you.
Except people can just as easily say - these META posts keep popping up but the one suggestion to make more money is refused for reasons that make less and less sense.
Is it less reliable than a year up front? Sure, but more money is more money.
Will it fund a reporter? We don't know until we try. But either way, I bet there would be a LOT more TKPC users.
Such condescension!
You know, when I initially responded to you, it wasn't directed at you. I responded to your comment because you had said some of the things I talked about mainly because we had been around for a similar amount of time and used that to illustrate a point. You have about two and half months on me, for the record.
But now I see you are EXACTLY the motherfucker I was talking about and your condescension oozes through your comments.
Go fuck yourself
You really need to step away from the keyboard for the rest of the day.
Y'all, I'm sorry I mentioned it at all because of the path this went down. I hope both of y'all hug it out and if it were possible, I'd buy you both a beer right now to facilitate that. I realize there are real-world economic reasons why people can't afford $84 a month, and honestly it's a product failure. That's on me.
It is what it is.
I have nothing against APOW. He's a good guy and good contributor to the site. Things got heated and things were said, it happens. Apologies for the things I said, I didn't mean for it to go down that path.
I just hope you are good. You've mentioned often about how draining this site is, and there's at least a segment of us that worry you're actually happy running this site anymore.
You have nothing to apologize for. I am thankful your are so upfront with all of us. I also understand there are things that keep the monthly thing from happening. I was just saying how it would help me. I hope you are good. I know your personal stress level with running things has been elevated. I didn't mean to add to that.
I think you meant $84/year.
Yes, but it's effectively $84 that has to come out of one month's budget
Dude, shut the fuck up. I mean that with all due respect, you aren't winning this argument and will just come off as more of an asshole if you continue it.
I'm about ready to pay $80 for an AssPocketFullOWhiskey vs Alum07 rastlin match!
There can only be one! /s
Having met AssPocket in person, my money is on him.
Having met them both, so is mine 😂
Bah gawd, that's Hokie Fireman's music!
Damn, I'd be willing to fund an additional membership. I paid to continue upping my football knowledge and for the content I enjoyed when it was still free. I don't comment often but I eat the content 24/7.
I appreciate it, but I'm good.
I don't think the issue is really setting aside $80 over 12 months....if you're looking at $7-10 a month, I'm thinking, hey that's six-pack, no big deal. When you're looking at shelling over $80+ all at once, that's not chump change...that's the new piece of brewing equipment I've been eyeballing for a while, that's half a month of my kids pre-school tuition, that's almost half of one of my wife's car payments.
Sorry my head exploded right here so feel free to step around the skull fragments and bits of brain because $80 is literally 5% of my child's monthly pre-school tuition.
Checks out
Same. We pay $250 per month per kid for two kids ($500/month for those playing along at home) just for before and after school care which amounts to an hour and a half a day. I can't imagine being able to get away with $160/month.
I don't want my comment to come across as an indictment of the OP's finances. Just communicating my shock over the relative cost differences for child care.
Mine goes to pre-K at a church, 4 days a week for 4 hours a day.
It's actually higher now forgot when I posted that, it was $160 a month when he was in the 3 year old class (3 days a week), the 4 year old class is $280/month
Where is that?
Down here in Raleigh, all the good day cares that I've looked into are stupid expensive. Right now, I have monster MIL watching my daughter every day because daycare is just too damn expensive.
OBX.
Now, if he were going to a non-church sponsored one down here, I'd be looking at more like $250-300/week
got our kids at a church in raleigh...it ain't cheap but i think two days a week for 4 hours is somewhere in the range of 200. four days/five days is obviously more but its decent. Don't know where you are at in raleigh but I am talking north side...
You got your kids at a church in Raleigh?! Were they having a two for one sale or something?! What''s the return policy like? :)
LOL. they are crazy but i wouldn't return them for anything
Haha of course. My brother lives in Garner, so I'll have to let him know what the child care market is like in the area.
Not to make light of how much you're paying because i know it's expensive but $280 was less than 25% for my daughter's pre-k school monthly fee. Would have LOVED that. Now that she's in elementary school I'm paying college tuition every year. Until i am a multi-millionaire she's gonna be an only child.
Homeschool, baby. Otherwise we're paying a crazy amount to get the kids into a decent private school (tried public for kindergarten for our oldest and decided never to go back).
It may not be much to some, but with one municipal employee income (stay at home mom), tuition, mortgage, car payment, utilities, etc....I'm counting down the days, only one more preschool payment, then off to public school next year!
No way. That's the opposite of what I am saying. What you are paying IS a lot. I would kill for that. Have seriously been considering moving my kid and wife to somewhere in California for the school year but I would just be away too much.
I feel the pain
if you don't mind asking, how much is the elementary school? Is this stateside? (I ask because haven't you mentioned you're based in, or at least travel often to China)
pretty sure it's shanghai?
Correct. In Shanghai.
Answer for Alum07, essentially you have an option to put your kid in a local international school of which their are good ones and are much cheaper, or into an international school. These schools tend to be good to great private schools. Some have extremely good reputations. My daughter attends a British school that is relatively close to our home, new and follows British curriculum and local Chinese language curriculum.
Per year the tuition is 40k usd. This was her first year. 17 more to go....
International schools for ex-patriots are expensive. Think private school in English in a different country. Like Fernley says, usually pretty good quality.
Which is why companies usually pay those tuitions for their overseas employees.
So what you're saying is that the dad in F&F Tokyo Drift had to have a pretty nice job
Being in movies is always a nice job. /s
The so-called Expat Package is mostly long gone these days unless you are C level in a corporation. And for me I operate my own businesses so it's all my own money end of the day.
That's cool. Had a friend in high school who went to an American school in Tokyo when her dad was based out of there working for a pharmaceutical way back in the day, and it sounds like a similar setup.
Holy crap. I couldn't imagine. I'm already sweating about putting mine through college, and she's only around 15 months old.
The American School group of schools are simply amazing. My daughter would be going there but it's an additional 10k and a little too far away. But absolutely stunning schools. The one in Taipei is without a doubt the best of the bunch
I couldn't imagine spending $50k/yr for an elementary school tuition. I'm finding it hard to believe some of the prices for high school around here, but that much for elementary school? Yikes.
I'm genuinely curious on what sets those schools apart from the others. I just can't wrap my head around it needing to be that expensive, outside of "if you set it they will pay it". I mean absolutely no disrespect, I'm just finding it difficult to grasp, and would appreciate any clarity.
Majority of that is due to a captured market. There are enough people who can pay, or on expat packages or must send their kids to international school to create the demand, overwhelmingly so as their are 30 plus international schools in Shanghai. China is smart though, especially Shanghai and Beijing and have made it damn near impossible for a new international school to get licensed. They will however support local schools opening international sections. Thos are a mixed bag though. The curriculum is somewhat dictated by government as is food but they generally have more money to spend on programs like drama, music because their tax base is very low. But your kid is inundated with school work and their is high turnover in teachers. These schools tend to be more designed for parents to feel good about themselves or to show off than for the kids themselves. And the best of them require you to negotiate a way to meet the principal and buy your way in, one way or another.
The International schools tend to have history and are based on long standing curriculum from whatever country they are from. Even though my daughter's school is relatively new to Shanghai it is one of 9 in the world and part of one of the most prestigious British accreditation programs. They also have a slew of after school programs. Everything from swimming to yoga to debate to ballet, etc. And as the kids get older their are multiple international trips for kids to take which is something I constantly dreamt of as a kid growing up in the middle of the high desert of Nevada.
Betond that, as with most everything regarding money it's networking. Families tend to be C level executives, successful entrepreneurs, ambassadors or consulate generals, etc. Kids growing up with friends that have similar interests, power and money. There is a reason why USCw Chinese alumni is the most powerful alumni base in the world right now, because the new generation of economic leaders all went to school there.
So like most everything I do, it's a long term play. In this case for my daughter's future.
googles USCw chinese alumni base
When we lived inn Dayton Ohio the school made a huge push to keep connected to its Chinese grads, to the point where they had two current students from China calling basketball games over the internet in Cantonese and Manderien(sp). The biggest reason they said was future of these students as businessmen and women was huge and they wanted them to feel a connection to Dayton.
very smart. Unfortunately, alumni operations at VT are pitiful. the guys on this end do an ok job at a group chat but there is zero real support from the school, no willingness to collate data on alumni in any meaningful way and truthfully missing out on a lot of money. For reference I know 2 VT grads, Chinese born, who's new company raised $500 million dollars last year.
How many times do you think VT has contacted them specifically and not just in mass emails? You guessed right if you guessed FUCK ALL. I'm willing to bet they don't even have their contact info.
I get your point about VT not having that great an alumni outreach program. I think it has improved over the last few years, but it had a lot of ground to make up.
But is it up to VT to reach out to wealthy alumni, or the wealthy alumni to reach out to VT? What could VT do to better reach out to these folks?
Seems like VT would have at least one person designated for "ridiculously wealthy alumni". Not sure how universities typically deal with this sort of thing.
Probably worthy of it's own topic. Though I've seen it discussed here before, seems like you still think VT should be doing something that it isn't doing.
The response I have gotten is that VT cannot give out alumni information, which is inaccurate. They cannot give out alumni information publicly but it can give out alumni information as part of it's own drive to further it's outreach to potential alumni donors. I offered to be in whatever capacity is necessary to make that happen and at my own expense collate the information into a usable database. I haven't gotten a reply since. There are 2 people in China that run an active VT group chat on the China messaging app Wechat. One in Shanghai and one in Beijing. The one I am on in Shanghai has 192 people. There has been one "event" which was a dinner with a visiting professor that I couldn't attend in the past year. I asked, and have gotten zero information, on the amount of money that has been donated from Chinese alumni but I am certain it is next to nothing.
Let's compare that to a similar sized university but perhaps less known. The University of Waterloo, Canada raised over $3 million dollars in their annual drive last year, which they have done so consistently over the last 6 years when they organized a real alumni office in China with resources. The cost of which is likely less than 50k per year. It's worth it.
Now lets get to the big dog, USC. Year after year the Chinese alumni group draws in over $10 million just by organizing it's alumni and outreach. This does not include the one-off donations by their very wealthy of those I know in the last 8 years have been $100 million, $55 million, $30 million, $18 million and $22 million, not an exhaustive list. And all of this is not counting investments made into the University Endowment that is now at $5.5 Billion. (For reference VT's is $1.15 B) My friend's family who come from Indonesia but are Chinese ethnicity invested $350 million into the endowment on her graduation.
They hold events throughout the year including watch parties for sports. Prospective student outreach and pre-orientation for Chinese specific culture. A MASSIVE annual dinner in multiple cities in Asia. The one I went to had over 2000 people. Trips and vacations. Business networking here and internationally.
USC has paid people in LA, Shanghai, Beijing, Hong Kong and Singapore. They share alumni information with Regional Chapter heads and allow those heads to coordinate that information directly at the behest of the university to drive for more donations. They have coordinated "recruitment" by powerful almuni to drive other power families to USC to increase the alumni base. EVERYTHING is coordinated to win.
They are so far ahead of everyone else it is insane. Only the Ivy's compare in donation size and frequency by Chinese alumni.
Hell, even loluva has recognized this and financially put their foot in the door to improve their Chinese base
https://global.virginia.edu/UVAChinaOfficeOpening
Yes, VT has gotten better. But it's a difference between horse shit and pig shit. It's still shit.
I have a friend I grew up with (also a Hokie) that teaches at Kang Chiao International School - East China Campus there in Shanghai
Nice. If he's up for a beer I'll buy. I'm traveling fairly heavily until end of month but can arrange time.
I'll be happy to connect you guys. I'm sure meeting up with another Hokie in a far-from-Blacksburg-land is always welcome. You can send me an email at brett.hurm@gmail.com
awesome. I'll email him tonight. I checked out his school and it's actually in the neighboring city of Kunshan which is not far away but I imagine he is only in Shanghai on weekends. Anyway, will let you know if/when we meet up. Is he on TKP?
I have no choice but to assume that by "pre-school" you mean "that creepy dude that lives at the end of the block", because that works out to less than 8 dollars per school day, which is quite frankly absurd (and I don't even have kids).
Think we found your source of income woes for 757hokie83. Multiple wives will get after ya!!
b-b-but i thought the numbers always worked!??????
I knew there'd be someone...that's why I said "wife's" vs. "wives", lol, i think i got it right
You got it right...
-The kindergarten teacher
However, if you wanted to avoid the commentary... you could have said "One payment on my wife's car"
Did I say I faulted them? I did nothing, but illustrate how some of those comments and the way they are said can be seen on the other side. I mean, Fuck... I even admitted I could be completely off base and reading the shit wrong.
You made your point and made it well. I'm with you on this. I came here because it was free, stayed because I enjoyed the give and take and have met friends here. I pay for no content anywhere else and at this point, won't here either. I'm the quintessential fixed-income senior citizen largely living on Social Security. Because of my erratic and less than optimally productive work record, even that is a fraction of what average recipients get. We're able to meet our bills and obligations, but discretionary income is precious. There are a bunch of things I'd love to spend money on, this site being one of them, and I appreciate Joe's position, but there are a lot of things here that I don't care about and while I can't get the community there, newspapers can keep me up to date on Hokie news. I'm sorry I'm poor, and if my circumstances improve, I'd likely join, but nobody's going to shame me into it with condescension or pressure me with this or that behind a pay wall, though if anything did push me, it'd be if the fishing threads were shut off. I'd miss that more than any single thread on this site. I have spent a lot of time here over the last 4+ years, and the only good thing about not having TKP to engage me in my retirement would be having the time to spend on other things, but I'll cross that bridge when Joe puts it in front of me, or when I feel too guilty for freeloading and move on. I know, TMI. I'll hush up.
I don't understand why this is downvoted. It's the truth and it's the way of the world
Honestly, this is why this has been such a hard thing for me to wrangle with. I never wanted to kill the community here. There are plenty of outstanding members of the community who aren't in TKPC (yourself), some pain in the necks who are, and vice versa. Even content behind the paywall, it has made some division. I was really hoping for a
piecake in the sky scenario. That didn't work out.The only time I ever feel division about pay content is when this comes up and people say, "well, if you'd just..." I think it can come off as condescending. I did not mean to single anyone out, and admitted that my feelings could be misguided. If Alum felt that comment was singling him out, I happily apologize for that. The rest...
It did, and I accept that
But I absolutely do not appreciate the barrage of personal attacks, regardless of how you interpreted my remarks. I honestly meant absolutely no offense to anything I said, and knowing that they did I do apologize for that. Was never my intention, and regardless of how I thought I was expressing myself, clearly I was in the wrong and I apologize.
My only suggestion is that as football season approaches put significantly more behind the paywall. You have found out by now which users are willing to stay in TKPC with the current setup. That number has plateaued. So now, put significantly more behind the paywall and see how many of the non-TKPC regular users are willing to join TKPC for the content. I do not know what percentage you could expect, but perhaps it will be enough to put you over 1,000 members, which was your original goal, I think.
And you could test the waters by putting more of your Spring football coverage behind the paywall, but you won't really get a good answer until football season hits.
I for one, would be willing to pay a bit more in membership dues. But I don't think that is the way to go; I think you'll lose more members than you will gain at this point.
If anything, you could try polling your users to see how many would join at a lower rate, and then consider some sort of tiered membership model (i.e., a basic ($1/month), premier ($3/month), and fully-dipped (current $7/month) membership.
Speaking of Meta.
Justin fuente is that you?
Thinking about it a bit more...I would look at how many people average at least 1 comment per week and are not TKPC members. These are the most likely people to become TKPC members. Try to convert as many of those regular users as possible. Assume you can convert 25% of them with a lower price or more content behind the paywall, would that be enough to meet your goals/needs? This is the approach I would take. Find the most likely to convert, and do your best to convert them.
I'd wager that there's a weak relationship between participation and willingness to pay. Willingness to pay is defined so much by the environment you grew up in and your current financial situation. Anyone under the age of 25 has quite possible never paid for content (newspapers, music, movies, etc) in their life, and isn't able to justify paying for it here, no matter the costs or upside.
I also imagine that most people who are TKPC aren't doing it for the content as much as they are 'giving back' to the community or 'saying thank you.'
Not to be a dick, but this is pretty poor and unactionable advice. I suppose he could run promotions, but again, going back to my first comment, I'm not sure that would be effective.
Finally - the gist I get from Joe's post is that his goal is to put less effort into the site, either by increasing revenue and outsourcing responsibilities, or by decreasing output. Putting effort into marketing/converting is a lot of extra effort that (I predict) won't pay off.
There has to be a relationship between participation and willingness to pay. This site offers two basic things...content and dialog among users. Those who comment regularly are showing that they don't only value the content but that they also value the dialog/community that this site offers. Some percentage of them (I don't know how much or how little) would be willing to pay a small amount to remain and be a part of the dialog/community. It was simply one suggestion for using the data that he has to identify/project the pool of users that are potential TKPC members.
As for conversion, yes that advice was less actionable. My primary point was to test the waters and attempt to convert the pool of users I identified above by offering lower or monthly rates. That would require minimal effort/marketing.
These were simple suggestions that I was offering if Joe has the desire to continue with his efforts and boost TKPC membership. Joe has obviously given this 1,000,000x more thought than I have, but he wouldn't make these META posts if he did not want to inform us and receive some feedback from site users.
I think the site offers three things: Content, Dialog, and Community - the latter of which appeals to an emotional need that people have.
There is obviously some relationship between participation and willingness to pay, but Joe's comment indicates that it's not strong (enough). I'm guessing that the people who pay TKPC view it more as a 'donation' than a 'transaction'.
Going to echo the crowd sourcing ideas here.
I'd be happy to edit some things, do research, hell write up some articles if that's helpful.
I love TKP, and while I'd prefer not to pay for things I don't 'need' to pay for, this is 100% worth $84 a year considering how much time I spend on here.
...I also realized my membership has lapsed which I have just fixed.
If I were you, I'd find ways to minimize site upkeep. Potential ways to do that includes:
Curious to see how much time/money is spent on the site, and how that time/money is spent across different functions. Given that information, we could give some more concrete advice.
Edit: Here's an interesting idea. Come up with a number that is required for the site to operate at an acceptable level of effort to you (however you define 'self sustaining'). If the money falls below that threshold, let the site go down, and force people to contribute to a fund to keep the site afloat. Would be an interesting experiment...
This may not be the best time to make big decisions. Seems to me that people have been stressed due to the changes in the basketball coach. The people here have certainly seemed edgier than normal.
Stepping away from this for a moment from time to time is probably a good thing, and now is a great time to do that. Yeah, go hit that golf ball.
This site is certainly a labor of love, and I think most people here realize that.
It appears the articles/content behind paywalls always have the lowest engagement which makes sense from a numbers point. However, the question is why are people not seeing value in the content enough to pay for it.
I think the question is, do you want to make this a business or a hobby. The members have paid ~$54k to this site in a year and the site gets ad revenue as well. What was that used for? Servers, contributors, etc I'm sure. And I don't really need to know the answer. My point is that It appears your trying to free cash flow yourself into a business and compete with larger media groups. That's going to be very difficult.
TSL covers the most sports, 247 has recruiting. What do you want this to be known for and what can you provide that's worth paying for?
IMO this is a very different community than TSL or 247.
TSL's format is atrocious, I still can't believe the members revolted about making the change to something more reader friendly...who the hell wants to click on every single comment to see what someone posted? Several things drove me away from them:
During the Beamer years, all criticism was shot down with "In Beamer We Trust" or something to the effect of "Frank knows more about football than you!" Why even have a site if you're just gonna keep regurgitating lines like that? These communities exist to foster discussion and conversation.
Plus the readership/posters seem to all be a generation or two older than I am (31)...there's just a major disconnect between myself and the average poster there in what is interesting/funny.
And, man, 247 is just a cesspool of negativity and incredibly immature posters. They seem to have some well connected people but its too expensive to pay for their paywall.
TKP does a pretty decent job of self-moderation, we have interesting debates and quality posts from both the staff and random posters (for the most part). I will occasionally poke around on other boards during crucial times (NSD, coaching hires, etc.) but I come here for entertainment...or at least to waste time while I'm at work.
All in the spirit of being constructive:
1) Re-assess what the site is good at and compare to what people are using the site for. I dont think the vast majority are here to read the articles. What keeps everyone engaged on TKP (i'm speculating, but i think its a speculation) is the community engagement, discussion, and banter. The discussions start with VT athletics (except for that one fishing report and VTAlum announcing his leg accomplishments) and then it morphs in to something different. This is where I think you need to focus attention. You made a tool designed for one thing and the user base has taken it and applied it to something different to suit their needs. You basically created a VT-themed version of Facebook without the data mining to serve your privacy violating needs (that we know of :-)
I'm willing to bet if you put the boards and ability to post behind the paywall you would see a very dramatic change in membership numbers.
2) Monthly, Membership. Fees. You can put incentives in place for an annual plan, but until you give options for membership between Member | Not a Member i think that the membership stats will continue to lag.
I'll also add - I think you recognize this as well. The last feature that was introduced was the Meta "M" option for the boards. Whether it was done consciously or unconsciously I think you recognize where the major attention is given to the site and are starting to prioritize - you just need to figure out how to better monetize it.
Yes, and yes.
This. TKP is where is where I prefer to consume my VT news specifically because of the (free) community dialogue. I visit the site multiple times everyday to read the latest comments on whatever the interesting news of the day is. I would like to contribute because I recognize the work it takes to keep the place running but at this point the only thing I feel like I'm buying for $80 bucks is French's film breakdowns. They're fantastic but not enough to justify that price.
Ya, I think the content here is the best there is. But the only thing I feel like I'm missing out on is the film reviews. All the other game week stuff is free during football season so it's hard for me to justify the 84 bucks. Also, there isn't much insider info for joining (recruiting news or behind the scenes stuff)
You say 'TKP is where is where I prefer to consume my VT news specifically because of the (free) community dialogue'. Then you say 'the only thing I feel like I'm buying for $80 bucks is French's film breakdowns'.
But you come here for both, and I'm willing to bet the comments are the most important part since you said you come here 'specifically' for them. Are you willing to lose that? And then be stuck with TSL or 247? Because from what I'm hearing, we're in danger of losing it all. TKP is my favorite site because of the things you guys say. I laugh every day because of this community. I would certainly hate to see it go away.
I don't have any answers to this dilemma. I wish I did. But i sincerely appreciate all of your efforts, Joe.
I would hate to see it go away as well. I hated to see French's reviews go behind the paywall. But they are a luxury I can't afford at this price point. I either need to get more for my $80 or I need to be allowed to give smaller amounts of money more frequently.
Maybe reach out to Bill Roth to get his students some real world experience writing for this site?
hi Joe please don't go
Seriously though, of course you gotta do what's best for you, and whatever you decide I want you to know that I'm grateful for this gathering place you've provided for us sometimes-stable Hokie fans.
It would be interesting to see what would happen with the TKPC numbers if you made it so only members could see/write comments for everything. I don't see limiting content driving numbers up to what you probably want it at. However that's because I don't always come for the article itself, but moreso to be irrationally pissed off with everyone when things go poorly and to celebrate with my FAMMM when things go well.
Or only let TKPC members up/down vote comments.
only TKPC members can post gifs
only TKPC members are allowed to go off topic
anagrams for TKPC members only
You can take my vote, you can take posting GIFs, you can take going off topic... but dammit, don't take my anagrams. Have you no mercy?
*Please don't take my Emma GIFs either.
You're allowed to post Emma gifs.
But you'll need to join TKPC to unlock permissions to view and post Watson and Stone gifs
See, with ideas like this, I could totally work in the financial department of EA Games
"Don't take my anagrams" anagrams to "A Grandma Yanks Totem"
I was going to go with [REDACTED, FOR TKPC ONLY]
That's a good one!
They don't know what they're missing.
This is my opinion as well. The exceptions are French's reviews (back when they were free) and the Foerensics game previews because they are unique in kind to this site.
You need to be very careful when potentially putting comment ability behind a paywall. As someone that's been posting on the internet since the 90s (which is probably most of us here now that I think about it), nothing drops a community and traffic faster than fucking with the comment section. Full paywall pretty much wipes it out (also switching to some awful system that's hard to track). The best course of action I've seen is some kind of tiered pay structure. It sounds silly but people will actually pay for stuff like flair, avatars, the ability to post gifs/emojis, etc.
If you had an insta-pledge button that could be used to make a one time donation, you'd probably see money come in every time one of these threads is published. You could include the button in popular articles/features.
Build the site based on the known income. Your membership provides your baseline. Income you get past that is not reliable, but can serve to build for more things. You can only budget based on the known income. And that's what sucks about one time donations. But, saved one-time donations can build to replace hardware and do other maintenance-type purchases.
I think there are content items that should always be free. Giftory, while time consuming, is probably your most shareable item. If something from here is going to go 'viral', it's probably that. We've seen comments that players look for the giftory posts. Giftory is your marketing campaign to lure people here. How they choose to proceed past that point is up to them.
Take care of yourself and your family, they are number 1. If the site brings you happiness (and thus your family through a happy father figure), then keep it up. If not, dump it. You don't owe anybody a thing. The site itself is amazing and I genuinely enjoy the process of coming here and reading. The content is top notch too. Outside of "one cool trick to get your website views!!!!!" I'm not sure what more you can do. You've done an amazing job. My only discontent is with the members and comment section. I'm sure the self-moderation has mostly worked as intended, but it creates an environment that irks the shit out of me. That's a personal problem and nothing you can (or should) do to fix that.
Do you, man. Do what's best for your family.
Edit:
Oh yeah, I don't really care one way or the other about monthly membership fees vs annual. However, one of your stated reasons for annual was guaranteed income to pay for a full-time reporter. Let that vision die. Go monthly and/or annual, maintain or possibly increase income, and pay your reporters part-time salaries while keeping the site alive. No since in letting the website die for a dream (full time reporter) that wouldn't be achieved anyway.
Joe enters the Transfer Portal to see what his options are....
Enjoy the course, wish I was there.
...and after 22+ hours, why is this comment not plaid?
One time donations outside the scope of TKPC membership, tiered membership structure, recurring monthly membership pay structure, etc are all suggestions that have been thrown around before. Restricting TKPC membership to an upfront payment of $84 simply eliminates a portion of the demographic right from the start.
Yeah, I was going to mention a tiered structures. Dunno what the higher tiers would be, because most higher tiers would involve more work (TKPC gear, events, whatever). I would be willing to bet that some people would be willing to contribute more if they could, so even if there wasn't an explicit quid pro quo on the higher levels, maybe some people would be willing. That at least gives you a more reliable yearly structure than would individual donations. The single payment is definitely limiting though. Set a baseline, but allow for a higher elective rate that would renew at that rate yearly seems like a quick fix that might add some money that would be as reliable as the TKPC subscriptions are.
If you really feel this is unsustainable, we can always go to reddit or back to sports hoopla.
(Please dont make me go back to sports hoopla)
Is there a market to sell the site? I don't know if that is even a plausibility, although I've sure you've already looked into it.
Joe,
I have no idea how a business like this is supposed to be run, how it makes its money, and what it takes to keep it going. But...
Why can't you simply make all published material TKPC material? For the 677 people who have joined, great for them & great for you! You guys provide a great service here IMO. Others who value it will join as well.
For those who cannot or simply wont join, leave the message boards open. People will always engage there.
I think the opposite might be true. The real value with TKP seems to be the community, as opposed to TSL, for those who are active here. Maybe give article teasers for free, generate the urge to comment / discuss, and charge for the privilege to do so.
I'll be honest about my reasons for not renewing. I didn't want to spend money on two sites so I originally figured I'd alternate between TSL (which I still enjoyed at the time) and here (which I also enjoy). This past year was my year to drop TKP. Since then I've come to accept that VT will never be be a football playoff team and that I only really followed basketball to learn about Buzz. Given the current oligarchical realities of CFB and the departure of Buzz for A&M, my interest in college sports has waned significantly and I'm currently planning to drop both memberships.
That's almost 100% the same reason I didn't renew. I just find myself caring about VT sports less and less, while my time obligations at home get greater and greater.
On a related note, somebody will need to pick up Six-Pick this coming year, as I won't have time to do it this fall.
In all seriousness: if the thought of selling the site ever crosses your mind, please loop me in. I'd hate to see the community end up in the hands of someone without an interest in "keeping TKP weird."
Hopefully that never becomes a thing, but I hear you. Business is business.
I was just thinking this morning that we should see if we can fill up the entire right side of the TKP homepage with negative topics/stories.
Good to see Joe is on board with this plan already. /s
I've lurked for years and 95% of the time I'm here for the message board. It's free. The only thing that's ever made me consider paying the subscription fee is guilt and/or supporting a Hokie doing good work.
I pay for The NY Times, Washington Post, Amazon Prime and Netflix. The annual/monthly thing is not an issue, but when I pay for a subscription, I need unique, timely content I can't get anywhere else.
And that's the crux. The article content isn't (usually see: French) unique enough in that I can get it elsewhere for free, and oftentimes, it's not timely. I mean, just look at the current list... lead story is now old. Head Bb coach is hired, yet the post title says, "Reports Point to..."
I know and don't expect this to be a Washington Post-like newsroom. Of course not. My point is, if you're gonna charge money, I have to see the value as explained above. I find value in the forums, and not enough in the articles/blog posts.
So, I'd pay for the forum access. Not the articles, yet. I'm not a site engineer/developer, but if you teased me and let me see the forum topics and 3 of the X responses, I'd bite and pay.
Hell, throw up some more T-shirts. Hold a membership drive 4x a year that blocks the site out for 48 hours. Put up a pay-email newsletter subscription list for insiders. I'd rock a bumper sticker. Firewalled FB group. Set up a referral system. Throw exclusive member tailgates for an entry fee. Do the ex-player q&a just for members. Those are great!
Seth Godin. You've assembled a tribe. Not a crowd. We all are part of many tribes. I want to support this tribe. Let me do that. Unique, timely content AND forum posts/message board, I'll pay for. If it's just the articles? Nope.
I would agree with this. It's not a money thing for. I signed up for a year. It's just the content that is behind the paywall is not worth 80 bucks a year to me. Yes you have a reporter going to the pressers but it's the same quotes that all the other beat writers get. I played college ball so French's x and os are not my demographic as I already have a good feel for what's going on. I would be willing to pay for insider info, recruiting info, behind the scenes, etc.
I really enjoy this page because it's the equivalent of vt football subreddit for me. I enjoy the banter and community and if you put that behind a paywall I will just switch back to r/cfb and other similar websites.
I guess what I am saying and this will not go over well is the juice is not worth the squeeze currently.
From a non-paying member, this is what I will say I come here for:
Things I would be ok without (whether behind a paywall or not produced at all)
Me personally, if this was a pay only site, then I would probably be out. I understand you have to do what's best for you and your family though.
What if you didn't publish and edit 99% of articles that appear on TKP, as well as not write any content? Like other posters have pointed out, IMO most of the threads are posted by members and not publishers/moderators/TKP employees; ex. "(enter month) 2019 - Recruiting Thread". If its not financially making sense for you, why not step back and let the site produce itself? I feel like there is more than enough members who stay on top of everything VT, in all aspects. I am just spit balling here and admit know NOTHING about producing and sustaining a website. I am also not calling for anybody's jobs and never want to get into anybody's pocket, but I wonder if there is something you are paying for that isn't needed. IMO TKP will always have people coming to this site for the community of members.
Unless its a paid forum, taking out the written content literally takes out the entire revenue stream now you're definitely not paying any bills
I am more curious than anything in my response.... when you say taking out the written content literally takes out the entire revenue stream, is the content you are referring to the original content produced by Brian, Henry, Joe, French, etc?
Yeah that's the stuff that goes behind the paywall and one of the largest incentives to join TKPC.
Im following..... That's what I meant when I wrote
Well I'd be interested to see how many people would (or wouldn't) stay with TKPC if such content goes away. Some probably leave but I would be willing to bet a good amount would stay as they like other aspects of the website, but I can't speak for anyone... just thinking out loud.
I wish the non-paying members who think they don't get enough value to pay understand one thing: if you don't pay, this site will die. No matter what you enjoy/don't enjoy or whats valuable/not valuable, the site will die if you don't pony up. Its rather simple. Or as Gene Wilder would say:
Ok, at the risk of getting flamed (is that still a thing? I'm old) there are a few reasons. 1. He didn't say that it goes away in his post. Just that he'd be stepping back. 2. There are plenty of free sites on the interwebs. My history major arithmetic might be bad here, but 600x$80 is $48k, not including ad revenue... my brain tells me there's an Amazon link somewhere? Point is, it's monetized and this won't go away with the traffic (spikes) he's getting - it makes decent money and won't go away if he's not paying for content creation. Hosting ain't expensive so my bet is it won't go away.
However, now I feel guilty and will get fully dipped but I really want to pay for something other than what I'm already getting for free and not do it just because I'm guilted into it. Does that make sense?
Flamed? That's a new one for me, but we can bring it back if you like.
As far as "stepping back", I'll let Joe clarify.
I understand what you're saying, and in strictly terms of economics, I see your viewpoint.
I'm sorry you feel guilty (though I'm sure TKP will take your money for whatever reason you decide). I look at it this way: if we want TKP to keep going, then we, as a community, need to kick in what Joe requires. Obviously there's a threshold, but for me, $84 is below it.
Welcome to the club! I just hope the other readers who get value (be it a membership in a community or learning more than any average person ever needed to know about X's and O's) feel compelled to answer the call from Joe and the staff.
Man this is kinda not a great day in Hokie Nation
New guy here. Long time browser of the boards. Joined to help keep this afloat. I enjoy the multiple perspectives and the layout of the comments on the forums. Go Hokies!
Can I upvote this multiple times?
Make that an exclusive feature of the TKPC?
For me I joined and keep renewing for one reason. This is not only my Hokie connection but honestly the most adult connection I have most days (outside my wife). Since I'm not working and going to college (when I have none online classes) involves mostly college aged kids I don't get a lot of interaction with other adults most days.
Yea it might be weird but at this point I'm too old to give a shit.
Wow and I make a comment opening myself up to what I think are fellow adults and get an awesome DM on twitter from a just opened account.
Jesus some people on here really need to grow the fuck yo and step into the light like a man and don't be a little bitch just downvoting away without stepping up.
If someone gets Mad Online™ enough to do that busch league shit then you've won.
go on....
lmao y'all were both Mad Online yesterday
so
everyone is a winner?
The opposite.
I was talking about someone opening an anonymous Twitter account to DM bullshit to Fireman anyway.
How did you trademark that phrase?
It's the internet, everything is made up and the trademarks don't matter.
There will always be bad apples in the bunch.
Joe, do what you think is right. I feel like managing the site is sucking the enjoyment out of VT athletics for you. You have made it to close to 70% of the original membership goal. My gut tells me the other 30% won't alleviate all the burdens on you.
Whatever you decide, know you have created one hell of a community.
I'm sure I get down voted for this, but my $.02...
I've largely stopped coming here in the last 6 months because I was getting mostly uninformed speculation and misinformation, irrelevant back and forths (I'm guilty of this too), BBQ and beer discussions, and elementary school clever gifs - and I had neither the time nor the patience to wade down through a 100 post thread to find the few posts with real VT sports info and observations I personally value.
I don't have the answer for this and I wish the best. But I suspect if you get past the TKP diehards in the TKP echo chamber, there are many others like me who are similarly less and less enthused by the direction the TKP has gradually taken. And the diehards simply aren't enough to make it viable.
I shared a thread on Twitter with more insight. (Click to view the whole thing.)
Long story short, I am very burnt out. I have done this for 10+ years, every day, all-year, without a break. That may seem like hyperbole, but it's 99% accurate. Today I had an epiphany, the sudden insight, not divine kind — take some time off from TKP. I am going to do exactly that. Take some real time off, not think about content, or editing, or posting, or TKPC, or anything related to this site, and recharge my batteries. I've always over-communicated to y'all about where TKP is at, perhaps to a fault, but that is the reason for this thread and these thoughts.
In all honesty Joe, this is the perfect time to step away for a while. After the spring game on Saturday, there isn't going to be much Hokie sports news until August. If anything goes on there will be plenty of people to handle it. Go take care of yourself for a while.
How many non-TKPC would join if there was a $10 / month option AND wouldn't be a seasonal member (i.e. would keep the membership active year-round)? Please indicate that with an upvote. Do not upvote this comment for any other reason. You're indicating you would 100% join under those conditions, I want to get an actual first measure of that volume.
OK now I am out.
You might want to put this at the beginning of the thread if you can.
This comment is a little buried for this to be successful I fear. Maybe you should move it to the top of the page?
Anyways, I haven't posted on this site in probably close to a year. Not because there are better alternatives, but because I couldn't afford the initial cost and opted instead for a monthly membership at 247. So I spend the majority of my time on that site. I would 100% be behind a monthly payment plan. This site is infinitely better, from a community standpoint, than any other VT message board. Would 100% move from 247 to TKP.
I understand your reluctance to pursue the monthly subscription model, but after over 30 years working in the retail business either selling to folks, managing folks that sell, marketing to folks to get sales or supporting the infrastructure that drives sales, I can tell you that the subscription model works. Its the wave of the future.
Getting small increments of money to fund large operations is a business model that has proven success in the creative world. Think about Netflix and Hulu as content providers. Dollar Shave Club, Stitch Fix, and even Amazon as retailers. They all are subsription model successes. At one time, they had to figure out how to budget their expenses against an unknown retention rate. Its possible.
I know you are worried about retaining current subscribers, but the subscription model can increase your base of subscribers to offset those losses. One of the things that subscription based providers account for is the difficulty people have in remembering to cancel a subscription. Think about all of the free trials that turn into monthly income for content providers or services. The reason that so many have that business model is that it works. Even cell phone providers know that $35 bucks a month for two years for the latest phone is a lot easier to swallow than a $900 outlay all at once. Subscription is the wave of the future. It wont be too long in the future that people in urban areas stop purchasing cars and subscribe to car services. Much easier to outlay in small amounts than to pony up to make a large purchase.
I built my career in retail on being a numbers guy. Here is what I see with your numbers:
You have 679 annual subscribers at $84 per year. That's just over $54k per year.
If you went to a subscription model you will definitely lose folks during the offseason. I cancel my Netflix subscription in the summer because the summer is way too short in upstate NY to spend it in front of a screen. For a ballpark say you lose 2/3 of your annual subscribers during the offseason. Based on the content and community (and people forgetting to cancel) I think you can do better than that, but I'll be conservative.
That leaves you with 227 subscribers at $84 per year - or $19k from annual subscribers.
If you offer monthly at $9.99 (less then $10 is the magic number) and you retain the other 452 subscribers for 5 months a year, then you get $22.6 k from that group. That totals $41.6k. That's only $12.4 less than you have right now. To make up the difference you would need 248 new monthly subscribers. That assumes the every monthly subscriber would only hang around from August to December. Some will stay longer, a few might cancel earlier. Your breakeven is probably less than 248 new subscribers.
But you could go further. Offer a year long subscription billed monthly - at $9 a month to provide an incentive. If you get 75 people to convert from a five month subscription at $10 a month, to a 12 month at $9 a month, you increase your revenues by $4.3 k per year. Or for every 100 its $5.8k. The subscription model can work - but it will be work to pull that off.
You have a passion of TKP and VT athletics. That passion has fueled a business. Sometimes people believe in their product or idea so much, that they think it will succeed, even when faced with business realities that throw monkey wrenches into their plans. I have seen many mom & pop suppliers that have a good product or idea unwilling to bend in their production or make changes that can make them successful. They inevitably close up shop because they were unwilling to explore options that didn't fit their passion.
It seems like you are burned out - you need a break. Take one. Your family and things you do outside of TKP are more important than a website. Take some time to get away from the day-to-day on the site. After a break to clear your head, take a look at things again, and decide if you want to keep going as is, or if a change that involves risk is worth it.
I hope you can find a way to be at peace and keep this community going. Living in upstate NY, I don't have a lot of Hokie fans to interact with. After finding this place a year or so ago, its been fun to reengage with a fan base that I have been isolated from for over 30 years. However, if you decide that the effort isn't worth it, I would support that decision 100% (or even 800%), because in the end, your happiness and mental health should be a lot more important to you than a website.
This. This is so well articulated. Well done.
how has this not gone plaid? Great work on this.
Just to add on to this, there are (probably) tons of college students who would be willing to be TKPC members but legitimately don't have $84 to splurge (rails aren't free). Having a $9.69/month (nice) option would be more palatable to students and recent graduates.
"$84 to splurge (rails aren't free)"
Well I mean it's that the point of consumerism? You have to make choices on how you spend you money. If you want rails, buy rails. But then you have to live with not having whatever it is you could have bought instead.
if the concern with monthly subscriptions is losing members after football or basketball season there are two options:
1) raise prices during primetime (august-march) to 10ish/month
2) have 12mo. commitments for monthly users and a penalty for them to cancel the subscription. If its $10 a month for prime time (8 months) let the other months cost $4. That way one year grosses $96 dollars (more than what TKPC currently pay). If they join in august and cancel in april (after prime time) the buyout could be $16 dollars, or the remainder.
I take it a step further and make the primetime monthly payment cover whatever the nugget is for the year. If its $84 for example and primetime is defined as August-April (9 months) then the cost would be $9-10 per month and the rest of the year could be something like $4-5 per month.
If you pay annually, it $84. If you pay by the month its $93 to $105 depending on which prices are chosen.
That way, Joe gets his nugget regardless of whether or not people unsub after primetime.
Joe, maybe you need a survey to figure out how/when and for how much people want to consume TKP. Maybe the number or TKPCers at $84/year is 679. What if it's 1500 at $50/year?
I don't mind helping develop a survey (my wife is an expert). I think it's hard to evaluate all the questions you may want answered through up or downvotes.
I'm happy to help. You have built something of value. Maybe the key is finding out how to get that value into more hands.
The price structure for the athletic is $10/mo (monthly) and $5/mo if you do annual.
Hate to say it but you probably have to beat them if you want my business for a subscription to sports writing (I don't currently pay for theirs either).
Also, for a single reference point - I don't really care for the in depth reviews or "beat writer" articles enough to pay - which is why I don't.
I come here for community discussion, news and speculation. Maybe you're trying to sell a product that your customer base doesn't want (or maybe just not at current price) and maybe the market is telling you that.
The difference, of course, is that this site is focused on VT sports. Good quality coverage of VT sports can be difficult to find.
Was there a good article about the VT basketball coach search out there? Anywhere? Maybe the best one I saw was on some Duke blogger's site.
I believe something like that might find an audience. Problem is, like you say, a big enough audience to pay for it is a different story. People pay here because they want to support a site with community and good general information about the program.
Not a business guy by any stretch, but my first question would be: what annual cost would would non members be willing to pay? Seems like $84 is a cool number, but is it the right number for the market?
I suspect an increased number would pay if the cost was $42 a month, but would that be more than double the current number? If not, it doesn't change anything.
Conversely if you did the opposite and doubled the cost (don't!) what would that do to the current members? Would it reduce the number by more than half or not?
My assumption is that some won't pay out of principle, even if that cost were $5/year, and some would be willing to pay even if the cost were $200/year. Probably small numbers on both sides, but you get the point.
Again, no business background here, but I feel like there has to be some method to how sites determine price points. Seems like the current cost isn't working as well as hoped so maybe reevaluate the price point?
I keep seeing numbers like $84/month and $42/month. Are these typos or do people think TKPC is $84/month vs $84/year. It's $84/year.
$84/day
I think that the monthly option is nice for a lot of people, in particular students. After I finished school, it took some time to line up full time employment and establish myself, but as soon as it was feasible, my wife got me TKPC membership for my birthday. I'll continue to be a member from here on out. As a student though, I made like $1,000 per year or something like that and spending $84 at once was cost prohibitive as my personal checking account often had a balance below $500. That said, I know that I read TKP religiously in undergrad and so did several of my friends. I think that a large portion of your potential revenue stream is the student body, so if there's anything that can be done to get them involved, (student pricing or something) that may help.
It may be an added cost, but an option to donate for articles that are particularly outstanding might be good. I'm not necessarily advocating for a pay-per-read model, but just an option to donate that is directly correlated to a particular article. For instance, I'd probably donate 3-5 dollars above and beyond my TKPC membership fee for every single French article I read, but I don't think I'd donate anything extra for Foerensics. Money talks and this may be a way to indicate how to allocate the resources you do have.
All this craziness on my birthday! And I just wanna party with each and every one of y'all...🙃
Not going to lie. This is what came to my mind when I read this.
Just kidding man. Happy birthday!
That's actually exactly what I was looking for by posting that and it took 2 hours for someone to put it up. Thanks! 🍻
LOL. Sorry for the delay. I had to eat dinner and get the daughter in bed before I could get back on here.
I wonder if this is how Whit feels too.
Whit gets paid to do this go. I'm sure Joe wouldn't be as frustrated if it wasn't a second job that didn't pay.
So true, great point.
Shit popped off between me leaving work and checking this thread, but I got love for all y'all.
So, I don't remember if I've ever commented on one of these threads. But I've had the same thought since TKPC started: I don't care about hiring a full time beat writer. I joined because I wanted to support the blog as it was, and knew that it cost money to keep running. I appreciate the work that all of Joe's reporters have done, but there are a lot of free sources for VT news, at least for my appetite. I don't read most of the articles as it is. Maybe I would if the team was better, but you can't only hire a reporter for 10-win seasons. I still contribute because I love what you've built here, and I wish our contributions were enough to ease some of the weight off your shoulders.
The point of this is, as others have said above, maybe it's time to change the goal of TKPC. Part time writer pay, keeping the server lights on, t-shirt budget, whatever. But as you noticed, the financial contribution just isn't happening to meet the original goal. I don't want you to burn out striving for constant growth. You've built something wonderful here: a gem in the sports blog world of bad formatting and bland content. I know this is your baby, but I'm happy with it even if it stays where it is. Just one TKPers opinion
Also, I will still continue my membership.
I come to this site for the community. I appreciate interacting with a fan base that is knowledgeable yet doesn't take itself too seriously. That includes 95+% of the people here.
Unfortunately, there is a vocal majority that can seem at times to take over the dialogue on this site, particularly in the comment threads. I think most people on here know what/who I'm talking about. It's frustrating and has, quite frankly, caused me to not post on/read TKP nearly as much as I once did. I'm tired of dealing with people who take an elitist attitude in now they interact with others on this site and think that because they have more fake internet points or have a key next to their name that they somehow know more than you.
Look no further than this thread to find a glaring example of that playing out. Only difference here is you saw the true character of someone come out instead of it being masked behind condescending cliches.
There's an active post right now where another member of this site is very clearly trying to stir the pot with a new thread bragging because who knows why. And this isn't the first time he's posted with a clear intent of getting a reaction. The whole site knows it.
Maybe the answer to all this is, "Well Skipper, if you don't like it just ignore it." But I guess that's the point. If I'm going to be an active member of this site I'm not going to watch good, well thought out commenters get talked over by that vocal minority who only care about the community guidelines when it supports their argument but I also don't think it's my job to police what is Joe's site, especially when I know he already has people to do that.
My point is this Joe, I don't come here for the news and notes, I don't come here for film reviews, and I certainly don't come here to read about recruiting. It's not that you guys don't do a good job with all that stuff, it's just not why I come here and not something I want to pay for. I come here because I think it's the best place for Hokies to celebrate together, be sad together, and just generally be Hokies together. I love this community. I love the stupid posts (see Foerensics, Valentine's Day Cards, Flowcharts, and Caption This threads). I'll join TKPC when I feel like this community is being held to a standard worthy of that fee and right now I don't think it is. But as I said before, I don't think it's my job to be the judge and jury on that standard. All this is my $0.02 and mine alone.
Maybe none of this is helpful, and if so I'm sorry. Maybe I'm reading the room wrong in how I see things playing out, and if that's the case then I guess nobody on this site will miss me all that much. But I've felt this way for awhile. Thanks for all you do, Joe. I know you bust your tail for this site. If you need time away please take it and the next time you're in RVA your round of golf is on me. I'll even give you a few strokes if you want to play a match for post-round PBRs.
Is that Fireman's post about having Disney season passes? /s
I was actually referring to all those bragging about going to/having been to Augusta for the Masters. ;-)
Hey I wasn't bragging about going to the Masters, just suggesting if you get the chance you should go. I went to two Monday practice rounds in back to back years because I managed to snag some free passes through work when I lived in ATL.
Can't tell if this is sarcasm or not but I started the masters topic and can assure you I am not going to the Masters haha. Came up short once more.
This was definitely sarcastic. I wasn't actually referencing you guys in my original post. It was another thread where a certain someone was posting about his Nostradamus like basketball analysis.
That DC guy gets after people
Ok so we're just going to allow personal attacks on this site now?
Cool, good to know
And for the record, you want to criticize what I said, have at it. I deserve it. But to go on the attack against me as a person is bullshit and it's all over this goddamn thread. It's strictly against the Community Guidelines and it's fucking horseshit that it has been allowed to fester, and celebrated like it has been on this thread.
Wait I don't know if it was directed at you
Bullshit we don't. It's all over this thread. I've been called a motherfucker, a condescending asshole, a prick, and now this shit. And most of those comments are pointed directly at me.
And all of those comments are being rewarded. Fuck that.
You really think turkey legs are real points don't you?
Yo Alum just chill out no need to get this mad over a couple of people saying not so nice stuff about you
It's a lot different when you're on the receiving end, isn't it?
Sincerely, dcwilson40.
You've personally attacked lots of people on TKP. Take it as constructive criticism or not, but you getting upset about someone personally attacking you and calling foul of community guidelines is not going to land how you hope it will. Honestly, it reads as very hypocritical.
Plus of all the comments on this thread to get mad at for personal attacks this is the one that's sending you over the edge? Maybe step away for a while and reassess.
It wasn't. It was actually the one above that specifically called me a prick that pissed me off. I just took those frustrations out here.
Hey, hindsight, at least they're calling it to you're face. Ok, I keed. Well at least uva hasn't won a major-oh wait.
I think the worst thing you have been accused of being is a miata driver but that just might be me...
Pink Miata. Like first generation pink Miata with the plastic windows.
The coloring makes it worse
Deleted.
Spot on in my opinion Skipper.
I will say that I differ in my draw to the site though. The only reason I joined TKPC was French's film reviews. I lurked on the site for basically its entire existence without creating a username because I didn't care about commenting THAT much. I basically read the comments to see the reactions or answered questions by the experts or people close to the program. Once I took the plunge and had the ability anyways, I've been somewhat active here and there. I do feel that over time I've had to wade through more and more BS to get to the substantial comments from people who actually know what they're talking about. Maybe I'm just fooling myself about the 'good old days.' Either way, I've been very close to canceling my membership 2 or 3 times over the past year or so based on the change in the discussion. I end up pissed off by comments from people who don't know what they're talking about before I can get to French's answer to a technical follow up question. The only reason I haven't is because I don't think it's Joe's fault that a consequence of growing the site is more and more people who just want to rile up the masses. There have actually been a few subthreads over the years predicting the day would come when the site got big enough that the community feel of people who just wanted to be better educated about Hokie Football would be drowned out by the crowd. Maybe that day has arrived.
Probably not what you want to hear Joe, but honestly I think the $80 is a little steep for the average VT fan, which I think should be TKP's target audience. French's reviews are better than every single piece that is out there on any VT site, but other than that, there is just not enough content that is unique to TKP to justify the cost to the average VT fan. All sites regurgitate interviews and press conferences, so no one really owns that realm.
TSL just upped their costs to $84/yr, and they put out a wide array of different types of articles. During a normal off-season week you'll get a 4,000+ word article on Will Stewart's thoughts for that week, position group synopses, incoming recruit analyses, updates on Olympic sports, and a podcast, all in addition to the standard TTL and press conference notes. Then add in their own film analyses and game previews during the season.
247 pushes out more insider recruiting and team information than any other site could possibly replicate. Their info is truly so unique and massive in quantity that you almost constantly have something to read. They're usually a little more expensive (like $95/yr) but are almost always running a promotion that brings the cost down by 25% or so.
I love TKP and this community, but I just think that the amount of unique content does not match the cost for a normal VT fan. I can justify it in my head because I am so obsessed with VT sports, but I'm not sure that is the case for a large portion of the fan base. This is a site and message board platform that isn't filled with endless negativity (247) and is actually usable (TSL). IMO, TKP should play to their strengths and try and appeal to the more day-to-day VT fan that might be willing to pay $40/yr for a unique article every couple of days, but doesn't have any interest in paying $80/yr or more to be a part of the 247 or TSL community.
Yeah the only reason I get on TSL is because they keep up with the Olympic sports on regular basis. If they didn't this would be the only Hokies website I would use.
Chris and Will are dedicated to that site, plus they have been around longer than TKP and 247. They do have a lot of content over there, but I like the boards better here so I come here.
Absolutely, and they have the following to show for it too. There are tons of people that have been on that board for decades and will continue to do so. That's why TKP has to do something to differentiate themselves and appeal to a different group. Charging proportionately for the amount of unique content would be a start.
This.
I think LA got this correct. I am always searching for hokie news and I go to 247 and TKP. I've thought about joining 247 a few times when I can't get that VIP info, but haven't ever broken down to do it. The only times I've almost taken the plunge is when they run their specials. I love TKP, and it is my go to, but when I come here I am expecting to scroll through comments to find relevant VT news that may be rumors, or "my daughters boyfriends uncle heard this". Most of the time new articles posted on TKP are common knowledge by the time they are posted (I like those articles as they have different perspectives sometimes), but learning anything new on here usually comes from a commenter like LA or BAG, or someone stalking 17 year olds on twitter.
For example I just counted (quick count, might be off one or two) 35 articles posted here since March 1st. In this time we've had spring practice in football start, the sweet 16 run, wrestling championships, baseball in full swing, players busted for weed, coach leaving, coaching search, etc, etc.
Now compare the 35 articles since March 1st on here....I quickly counted 247's amount since April 1st and it was 28. Justifying paying the same amount 247 charges to join here with all the new content they offer doesn't make sense to me personally. This is no slight to TKP at all, just the reality of the differing sites.
I am on TKP way more than 247 and would hate to see it go, so my suggestions (echoing most)
1. Monthly subscription (it just makes sense for a lot of people)
2. If you aren't a memeber have a way to pay for a certain article if that article piques your interest
3. Maybe have a plan to pay for french's Articles. Never really have gotten to read one, but they seem popular and some "only football" people would just pay for this feature
4. Have a donation button after every article and thread ala Wikipedia. They have stayed around for a long time on this model. It's one thing to ask for a big lump sum all at once to join. It's a whole lot different to read a great article and see "if you like the content on this site please consider donating what you can to ensure we can keep the lights on". Getting a few people donating randomly instead of just passing through definitely will get you some money.......honestly this is probably how I would monetize this site unless the yearly price came down around the 40 bucks LA mentioned.....with that said, you have a base at the current level and it would be stupid to drop the price anywhere near that. A bird in the hand is better than two in the Bush. And dropping it to 40 bucks or anywhere close means you would need to double your membership to just get back to what you are already making, and that won't happen overnight or anytime soon.
Long story short is you are already different, and probably aren't looking to be an actual full fledge media site like the others, so capitalize on being different by offering the different pricing options (pay for an article, pay for certain content, etc). And as others have said, at least hit up the local places and see if they are interested in advertising. A coupon to come in and get a half priced rail isn't a bad idea. If they don't like the views you are getting or are hesitant to sign up, give them a 3 month spot to see if it's worth their while to advertise.....you won't know until you try.
Long story short is there are a lot of ways to monetize this great site of yours. If you want to grow it and make more money you can. These things take effort and if a little more green to spend those hours aren't worth it then close up shop.....we won't be mad.....sad, yes. Here's to hoping you can recharge your batteries, but if not, God Bless you and your family. Go Hokies!
This thread is a good example of one of the with the site and why it's a challenge for you to get folks to join TKPC.
As I am writing this, there are 151 posts to this thread 103 of those are by folks with the lil key symbol and 16 are by AssPocketFullOWhiskey. This is not uncommon, I expect after a bit of metrics, my guess is that a significant amount of comment volume is from folks that already have the lil key. That means that no matter what the traffic says, you have already monetized a majority of your active base. You need to expand to something accessible for your more casual base (folks like me), that would like to throw your cash your way, but can't or not willing to make the TKPC investment (something like Patreon).
The other thing is that that core vocal group are also unintentionally a barrier to entry to that casual traffic. Not that most folks are not super cool and welcoming, but its like going to a party where you don't know anyone, its can be intimidating for somebody to jump in and comment.
At the end of the day though, you only get a few spins on this ball of cosmic dust, you gotta do you and be happy. If that is rolling on, Alabama that shit, and if its take your ball and go home, then channel your inner Cartman and do just that!
That is a common thread
For the TKP family: I think many of you have misunderstood Joe's point. As I read it, membership numbers and / or cost of membership are not his primary point. They are a symptom perhaps, but as I understand it, he is tired, discouraged, questioning the personal / family cost of this effort. Arguments /debates about subscription rates or how to structure them (especially suggestions that have been mentions numerous times in the past) probably do not help.
For Joe: I think taking some time off is a good idea. I really enjoy this site and hope that it can continue, but your family is far more important, Spend some time with your wife (and kids?) and re-discovery who they are and what is going on in their lives. Recharge your batteries and decide if you want to continue paying the cost (financial cost, opportunity cost, emotional cost, etc.) of running this site. When you are ready, seek some insight from folks you trust (your family, the other writers, and perhaps selected TKP members). Perhaps form a sort of board of directors that you can use as a sounding board for decisions for the future direction of the site.
I hope this site continues but my entertainment is not your responsibility. Your responsibility, as others have said, is your family and yourself.
You know what? Fuck it..... I've been lurking on this site for the past "insert number here" years. You deserve my 80 bucks... I appreciate all you do. Thank you Joe as well as all the contributors and posters. Back to lurking....
It seems there is a userbase that really comes here for the sense of community that has been built up over the past many years. That feeling of camaraderie is probably what drove this crowd to join the TKPC. I would imagine the community, and not the original content, is the most attractive part of this forum for the paying members.
Why not just create a private subreddit
Because reddit's format is only slightly less intolerable than TSL's.
Really? I've always considered it the best out there. The way they handle replies seems like the best option.
Don't upvoted comments and replies get higher bulling on reddit instead of chronological order?
You can set the default to sort by new if you choose to.
Depends on how you sort it.
As an individual. A mod can also set the sub to sort by new as a default
For the most part, yes. But you can sort by multiple different methods. In gamethreads for example, the default is just like it is on this site. In a larger community, I think the upvoted/downvoted visibility is better. But I think it wouldn't work for a small one such as this.
Reddit's format is pretty good in general, but because of the the way upvotes/downvotes work it's possible for whatever the dominant populations/fanbases(for sports subs) to completely control the narratives in every comment section, clean sweeping opinions they dislike to oblivion and upvoting the ones they do. I've seen it happen on several subreddits. It's particularly awful in r/soccer. I've seen mobs mobilize and cause 40 vote swings throughout an entire thread before. It's actually a very interesting case study in how a large group can control conversation and over time change the publicly accepted perception by constantly reinforcing the narratives over time. It becomes less interesting and more terrifying when you realize that is how many totalitarian leaders/government structures have come to power throughout history.
This is true, but I think it would be way more egregious in a small community such as this one. In large ones, such as /r/nba, there are so many people that differing opinions get their opportunity for visibility.
Lol what? Reddit's format is almost exactly like this.
Those that say there is no value for the $84/year because the only additional content is access to some film reviews early are missing the point. The content (and community) that is available for free does not have zero value, and certainly does not have zero cost in terms of producing it and distributing it.
The mentality around here is that its a membership model, but its really a crowdfunded model (without all the contribution level bs of kickstarter or patreon.)
I think I have one post to date and mostly lurk and read the articles and conversations, but it was a post much like this one that made me get the TKPC membership.
What if you took a page out of the reddit book and did something like reddit gold. Allow members to "gift" a month or multiple months of TKPC to other users based off comments or adding to the conversation?
I understand the monthly payments for memberships are a no-go, but this would be an option that continues to foster conversation between everyone and allows for an additional revenue stream. TKPC could have it's own message board that you get access to or offer less/no ads
Leg for creative idea. I know that VTFootball Grad and myself both have some interesting statistical analysis posts on recruiting that have been in progress. I would probably pick up the pace on mine if there was potential for a donation (and a free month of TKPC for me) to the site based on my post.
I'm not going to repeat on what has already been said, but just give some other new ideas.
Why not have threads sponsored by certain businesses. I'm sure Blackburg Businesses and businesses where your viewers are most populated would like to get 10,000 unique viewers. That's a powerful number that seems isn't being utilized to make money.
If you give me the dataset I can make you a heat map in Tableau quick and easy.
The other thing that has been brushed upon are micro-transactions. Some of the stuff that is behind paywalls could be accessed for lets say $1.99 or $1.00 to non-members. That would make it easy for people that are thinking about getting membership actually see the content and become paying members, and eventually lead to more conversions. It will also help to show what original content is most valued on the site and there for you can make more of it.
I would also think that people that want to help out by writing official content for TKP for free should have the ability to do so.
French is by far the sites biggest hit, you could uncover more hits if you have more people producing official TKP content, which will bring more value to the site. Maybe there is another French type in the community (Not necessarily football breakdown, maybe a basketball guru who can provide the same value). There is essentially no risk to at least having people write their official TKP articles. You could approve them before posted, and then figure out which ones are getting the most views, and you can cut and keep content writers from there.
Just some ideas. Be easy on me.
My advice: Put every article behind a paywall, and leave the community threads open for all. People who want in depth content will pay for it, people who are here just for the community will get just that.
Personally, I come for the community threads, the content is just the cherry on top. But a cherry that personally I'm not willing to pay $84 a year for. But I'm super frugal, and really the only subscription services I have are NF and Dollar Shave Club LOL. I think that model fits for all parties involved.
I know it's been said before that the advertisement model doesn't work, but can you please explain why? That's the reason I'm one of the complainers about the financial obligation, because everything nowadays seems supported by ads. Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, Snapchat, Youtube, etc. are all free because of ads. Get someone else to pay the bills and let us ignore the ads!
Making it completely free would drive up site traffic, which should support the advertisement business model. I'm by no means an expert in this area, so please correct me if I'm sorely mistaken.
Being a non-member, I appreciate all the content, but as some others here have said, sports just aren't worth THAT much to me, to put up my own money that I need to support my family.
Those sites are free because of ads, sure, but mainly because they
harvestmine your personal data and sell that to advertisers for more targeted ads. I've walked away from FB because of that, and don't use IG, Twitter or SC.The free/ads model seems to require some invasive privacy actions in order for self-sustainment. I would not be happy if TKP goes that route.
Ok, but doesn't that just allow them to make a ridiculous profit? Here we're not talking about making a ridiculous profit, we're just talking about paying the bills for the authors/contributors and keeping everything running to make it worthwhile for those people. I don't think you would have to go into privacy invasion to make enough money to support this site.
The site already is essentially completely free. Less than 5% of the content ends up behind the paywall. TKPC members get add free browsing on the site.
For me - I consider the $84 per year compensation for the *entire* site and experience, not the few articles that end up behind the paywall or the removal of adds.
What ads are there that non-members see? I've literally never noticed one. Which would make me think the articles are way more value than not seeing ads.
Also, way more than 5% came up behind the paywall during the basketball post-season, and high-traffic seasons. For a while I think I noticed like 3 straight paywall articles.
When I am logged out, there are 3 ads on each page. There is a banner between the OP and the comments section, there is an add in the upper right and there is an add below the active discussions list on the right. I don't know if being logged in as a non-TKPC member removes those or not.
As far as 5% behind paywall goes, I believe that there was 1 article per week at most during football season (and I am sure there were more than 5 articles per week.) During basketball season, there were a few clustered together, but I suspect when you average it out over a season it ended up being around that. During the offseason, I think there are even less behind the paywall.
As a TKPC member, there is no differentiation between paywall and non-paywall articles unless you are trying to read one when logged out of the site.
Very strange, I do not see any of those 3 ads. Even if I did see them, I wouldn't mind. Honestly even if I had to watch a 30-second video like for some Youtube/ESPN ads, I would be glad to do so if it meant supporting this site. And I understand the 5% averaging out, but during high-traffic times like NCAA basketball tournament or football post-season, the number went way up.
What if it were just....cheaper?? You will lose revenue immediately, but how many people would spend like $20 for this compared to how many will spend $84? You could certainly get way more students I would bet.
So I have seen a lot of people clamoring for monthly payments. I didn't go down the rabbit hole part of the thread that may have had the arguments for this but couldn't one add the 7$ or whatever it is a month to a visa gift card and use that at the end of the year? I am prolly missing something because I am lucky enough not to have to budget but it seems like a fair solution to the issue.
i ran a soccer team from 2002-2016 all volunteer. It was never easy to dedicate time to recruiting, playing, coaching, managing finances, updating the website and all that goes into it. It all depends on how much time you can devote and how much time you can get from others.
Good luck
As someone who comes here regularly, mostly just to read comments and get inside information for free (mainly from LAhokie...thanks LAhokie!), the yearly subscription price was what led me to cancel. I am still in grad school and just don't have the disposable income in a month to drop $84. Most of my money is spent on living expenses and anything that I have extra is going into savings so that wherever my wife and I end up next we'll be able to put money down on a house/kids/new car(s).
I still feel like for the number of times I visit the site that I should be giving something to Joe to at least help with maintenance costs. I think most people feel similarly.
I would strongly consider a Patreon-like subscription program to generate revenue for the site. Have different levels of TKPC. Have a $5/month tier as the lowest tier that essentially is just a donation tier. Have a $7/month tier that gives access to French reviews. Have a different $7/month tier that gives access to recruiting interviews. Have a $10/month tier that gives access to French reviews+recruiting interviews. Have a $15/month tier that gives access to everything + gives you a different silver? key icon. Have a $20/month tier that gives access to everything + gives you a gold key icon. Have a $25/month tier that gives you access to everything + a platinum icon and throw in a free t-shirt once a year (have requirements like must be signed up in this tier for x months to get t-shirt). And then just have a $50/month tier that gives you access to everything above plus lets it highlight all of your comments as a different color in the thread (so that people will know that Mr./Mrs./Ms. Moneybags is commenting). Maybe nobody signs up for the $50/month tier but even if one does that's $600/year vs the $84 that user is giving you now.
And then keep the annual plans. Let people buy them as gifts for other people (I've seen people say that spouse/friend/whoever has gotten them their sub as a gift). Give people a slight discount on the annual plans if you'd still prefer people to be locked in for a year.
Finally, you could always add a pay what you want tier that works like humble bundle where you get everything that's below what you're paying for. So if I give $12 I'm still getting access to everything but I'm not going to get the silver key icon that I would at the $15/month tier.
I think I would be more inclined to sign back up if I had a monthly option. There are always going to be people unsubscribing in the winter when football season ends if you do monthly plans but you're also going to have people that forget that they're subscribed and keep paying anyways. I think people that forget will see the $5 on their credit card and think "oh man, I forgot to cancel that, I should do that" and then never do that vs seeing $84 pop up and thinking "I messed up big time, I need to cancel my credit card so that this doesn't go through and I don't have to beg Joe for my money back."
I would not be in favor of having the top contribution level rewards that identify members as high donors. I don't think that benefits the community.
Now some of the quality of life features could be accessible through donation levels.
Otherwise, these are interesting ideas.
There just needs to be an option for those who can donate more to do so. Right now, it seems like you're either a member, or you're shopping on Amazon. There's no way for those who are capable of contributing more to actually do so.
Right now, TKPC membership is like everyone giving at a Bronze Hokie level. In Hokie Club land, by donating more you don't really get access to much more stuff. You just get access to better versions of the same things the lower tiers get. (generalization. I know there are a few things. But in the grand scheme of things, they don't matter). This, to me, is proof that people with the means are willing to pay a bit more for things they enjoy. Just because they can. The Hokie Club is never going to make goals if they're just shooting for 25,000 base level members. They need people paying at higher levels.
This site could operate with the same model. Get the base level, but allow for higher levels of contribution.
Are we sure we want to look at the Hokie Club as a good example of how to raise money? /s
via GIPHY
I have no idea what's going on here, but I do find myself wondering what my dog would do if he could shoot lasers from his eyes?
Thai werewolf movies are the best werewolf movies
Here's an idea: someone with the skills code up a payment processing plan that allows Joe complete flexibility in how he can set it up. If he wants to have tiers, it shouldn't be more work for him. Surely someone on here can do that pro bono and Joe can take it or leave it.
First, I want to say you have done more than an admirable job with this website. As someone who once for several years made an attempt, in a far different field, to run a website understand the consternation you are feeling. Second, I am going to say point blank, that I will never join this site or any site as a paid member. Were I younger that might not hold true. I admit that it's fun often, not always, to read what people are thinking here but there simply is too much information available elsewhere. If all content everywhere goes to pay or away, I have books to read, mountains to climb and people to talk to. I really don't care what French writes, especially the fishing part, but yeah, I think he'd be really good up front with a bunch of fans leading a seminar, and all those fans wouldn't have to be Hokie fans either. That holds true for some of the other contributors, and even posters.
I haven't been through this whole thread yet so don't know all that has been discussed or suggested. However, I look to the right side column of this forum and all I see is a lonely Hokie baseball hat in that long column. Hovering over it I can see it links to a frontpage collections and products page on this site. Man, you had 10,000 hits in a day. Is there some way you can monetize this site? I am not really talking about the facebook sneaky or slimey site stuff that I can block with Noscript, but direct links to real advertisers who might actually have an interest in all those page views. I actually don't mind ads - I just don't like how a good many of them think they need to suck up every piece of knowledge about my habits and self that they can. Certainly, you have thought it through and nothing I say is new, but there is a solution and walling off a good portion of your site is not it. There is so much more that is related to this site than just Hokie sports: health, sports nutrition, sports and football theory (French and others), fishing (why no boats or tackle ads over there -->) forecasting, rankings, on and on, that might be good fits for content, advertisers and whatever. I know there are guys who make a living selling ads and that would be another thing, but there must be a way (a concept) outside of google ads to support this site that brings you what you deserve and enables it to move forward.
EDIT: After going through this thread now, I am wondering why MacAdoo's doesn't have an ad with a coupon for a free drink in the right-side column. Where is Top of the Stairs with a BOGO ad? With all the talk about Rails here one would think they should be forking out truckloads of cash to this site. There is a whole lot more of untapped revenue that maybe just a few phone calls a day could harvest. Joe, take a break, clear your head, lose a few pounds, kiss the kids, praise the wife. Good luck!
THIS IS BRILLIANT. WE HAVE A NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP IN BASS FISHING. This...might be the best idea on this thread. Purely a Hokie thing. Target market is already here with a built-in VT connection.
This is beautiful, play.hokies, and exactly the type of stuff I think could be really useful. Might take a marketing guy to go out to Bass Pro Shops and/or Cabela's. I think a true marketing person could identify what it is that this site has already attracted and use it to make the revenue stream work better.
Ok, you got me. I joined. Kind of cool to see that orange key by my handle tbh.
It's always been about the community, to me. I can come here in the worst of times and people are still posting hilarious gifs. On TKP it's like everyone's friends.
The members on 247 make me what to kill. my. self.
I'm also a software guy and would love to help with anything you need. I'm doing Angular 7 at my current gig but have experience in traditional JS too.
Joe,
Hope you have a great getaway.
.
As for a new revenue stream, how about a simulated dunk tank? Charge a dollar for downvotes, and automate penalties on the receiving end. If you get 24 downvotes in 24 hours you are blocked from posting for 24 hours.
No, just no. You're giving money editorial privilege.
Have you considered a Student or Alumni discount? Doesn't apply to myself, current or past but it's better to get 25 bucks than 0...... If you could steal .03 cents from every bank account how rich would you be?
Two things about ads:
1) people running ad-blockers cut into revenue and a lot of people run them.
2) it takes work to set up and get more targeted advertising (e.g., folks talking about getting support and running ads for local businesses).
I just want a hybrid option where I get access to French's breakdowns, LA/BAG's recruiting info, and a new weekly column entitled, "Butt, I Digress," with OT musings from HokieMacGruber. That's all I need. /s
I come here for the community and other opinions more than the recruit interviews and film breakdowns which is why I have not shelled out the $84. I fully understand that premium content should draw a premium price.
I know one of the original plans for the TKPC was to fund a full time writer which was an ambitious goal. I know you and the other content producers here put in a lot of time and effort after your other full time jobs which is very appreciated but I must ask, how much does the hardware, software and licensing cost? With 682 members in the TKPC, that is $57,000+ a year. That is more than some people make in salary on this site. It is more of a rhetorical question that you don't have to provide any specific answers to. I just don't see how things could be so bad when you were running this site for free a few years ago to bringing in a $25+/hr full time salary off of it now.
Everyone's time has a price. If you need less time on here and publish fewer articles, we will survive. If after 3 years the financial aspect is not working, then it may be time to rethink how it is structured to better cover your time and opportunity costs. If it needs to be a full pay site, then so be it. You could even do a $3 or $4 a month for access and then the $7 for premium content. It is a low enough price for entry and then those who want more detailed reviews can get those. I also think that if it were monthly, that would be more easy to cash out rather than $84 at once. I personally would likely sign up for the football months each year to get the film reviews but I don't need the recruit interviews in the spring so why spend money on things I don't need? This way you get something which is better than nothing.
Long time lurker here. Now that I'm financially able to do so, ponied up and am now part of the TKPC!
I couldn't keep reading all the comments after the like pocket vs alum portion but here are some thoughts... and they may have been suggested already but here you go anyways.
encourage/ donation drop box for ALL games, meet ups, etc (start planning more TKP meet ups for away game watch parties, game day or game weekend meet and greats at tots on Friday afternoon or sunday morning, I know a lot of people head out right after the game or get there right before but these are all chances for free money, and where someone like pocket isn't financially able to support TKP people like alum (just an example) or myself who already pay for the content would probably drop a few more bucks to the cause through out the season.
I think the gear you dropped was exceptional, im not sure how well you did selling it although I have seen it around, and I don't know what YOUR overhead was but I have done somethings similar and maybe someone on here or myself would be willing to help out with connects to get you better prices so you can maximize profits of that and.... bring a little more attention to the TSHIRT button at the top of the screen. TKP tumblers (cups) flags, more shirts, hats, car magnets, flags, cozies etc, will go along way to putting money towards the site. out of stock and having to more is better than over ordering.
do some key play athons maybe 2 times a year. right before spring game and right before fall kick off. maybe throw in some low price reward for donators no matter how much it is, a cozie, key chain, etc. hell it may not seem like a lot but if a random guy that is never going to EVER give buzz Williams the money he raises on a "keep buzz in Blacksburg" go fund me can make 1k in a few days there is NO reason this community cannot come together and raise that same amount a couple times a year. no dollar amount is to small on a fund me page, unlike being a TKP member costing 84 a year guys can donate whatever they can and still feel like a part of the community without feeling alienated because of their financial situation.
all those ideas allow joe to raise money, while not having to take away from the community and become a pay only sit.
heck is everyone dropped 3 dollars for every comment they posted on this thread we would be at 900 bucks just like that.
im sure joe has thought of as many ways as he can to get things going. we all need to jump in and help out, if you cant financially, aren't a computer wiz, hell keep coming here or any other TKP events and showing up!!! showing up is half the battle. youre presence as part of this community is what makes it attractive too. no one wants to come to an empty bar and pay 20 bucks at the door, we want to go to the popular place and hang out with our friends if we are going to pay the door man.
Joe,
Since you are getting burned out, does increased revenue help you get any of your time back? Or are these two different issues?
We don't need cost details, but a general vision may help.
Personally, I'd like cost details. I don't think this site needs a full time reporter, and depending on where the money actually goes, I'm sure my opinionated nature would be anxious to provide feedback on how my 84 bucks a year is spent.
Not that it's my business. It is literally not. my. business. But I can't say I'm not curious.