OT: Game of Thrones Final Season Part 2 (episode discussion)

A thread is dark and full of SPOILERS. Beware.

In summary:

Arya slays. A girl is a fucking badass.
Jon gets commended for "winning", says he doesn't want the throne despite EVERYONE wanting him to take it.
Dany is mad. (pun intended perhaps) Down to 1 child and zero understanding of approach vectors.
Ballistas defying basic physics.
Jaime ships to sapphire island then returns to Sisterland... valonqarly?
Tyrion was clever now hella stooopid.
Starbucks opened new branch in Winterfell.
Mountain be chopping fools. Cleganbowl approaching.
And Cersei not letting go until someone rips it out of her cold dead hand.

also.. just for shits and giggles. I would love if Cersei became the new Night Queen. That would be such a great ending for her character. Not sure how that would work out... maybe Bran wargs into a guard that Arya is about to kill and tells her to push dragonglass into her heart.

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Comments

Thanks for starting a new thread. The old one was taking too long to load.

And Title page is excellent one page summary of the first thread. All the spoilers are entertaining .... although haven't seen a single one actually come true yet. Having a hard time figuring out a way they could end this series in a way that will satisfy most people.

All the dragons come back, they take over. Dragon civilization takes over. Drogon sits on the iron throne

(add if applicable) /s

I like Drogon, that's doable. Also wouldn't mind Gendry taking over either after everyone else in the series dies doing something noble (except Cersei, she just dies some horrible and slow death like dying of thirst two feet from a glass of wine she can't reach).

It's amazing how several of your bullet points can be explained by lackluster writing. However, I still have faith they can finish this thing strong, and I do have to give them kudos that they still have us all guessing. It's certainly trending in certain directions, but there is equally as much room left to easily pull characters back, insert twists, etc. Will be really interesting to see how it plays out from here.

Yeah, they were told how the story would end, not how it will get there. So I think(hope) that the last two episodes will be really strong since they aren't winging it as much.

If you're not sure if my comment warrants a "/s", it probably does.

53-E60644-0471-4-B28-8-D29-49-BA3-DCC1-A8-A

Tyrod did it Mikey, Tyrod did it!!

They should bring back Jaqen H'ghar, have him rip his face off and it's Rhaegar in disguise this whole time. He could fight beside his son to take Kings Landing.

Tyrod did it Mikey, Tyrod did it!!

So.. Is it just me or is anytime he posts a picture I just get a string of letters to a filename?

It's called a URL.....

But no, it's just you. ;^)

If you're not sure if my comment warrants a "/s", it probably does.

Nope, I see this:

53-E60644-0471-4-B28-8-D29-49-BA3-DCC1-A8-A

HokieSpider

That looks very suspicious. Methinks you should follow the white rabbit.

If you're not sure if my comment warrants a "/s", it probably does.

Are you at work? My company blocks imgur, so every link to a pic there will not come through.

I'm pretty sure it was happening to me at home, maybe one of my chrome addons was being weird.

I am and assumed my company's firewall is blocking the image.

HokieSpider

So a new "leak" contradicting some of the other leaks came out about Episode 5....and only Episode 5.

If it's actually correct, which it is pretty detailed, I think it could change a lot of minds on the season so far.

MUHUHAHAH

shiiiitttttt I told myself I wasn't going to read any of these and now I have.

(add if applicable) /s

I did the same thing and then I kept seeing more and more coming out so I had to. There is one about bells and I hope to god it isn't true.

There are so many of them now that I needed some glimmer of hope

It was a dream sequence.
Next episode the long night battleis about to start.

This is going to be great for the ACC.

That doesn't prove anything! If he is in a dream it keeps spinning* if he isn't in a dream it doesn't. In the dream he controls it, thus he can make it stop in a dream. So the only thing it can tell you is if it keeps spinning he is in a dream, it can not confirm he isn't in a dream.

But, it's not his totem...

Yes but only 2 people know the totem and one is perceived as dead (I say percieved because there is no way for Leo to know if he is in reality because he can make the totem fall in a dream if he wants too, so the entire movie could be a dream)

If Ep5 goes the way of this new leak, I'll be much impressed. That's a much better story direction than the last leak. There are lots of commenters saying this reads like fan fiction, though. I'm skeptical.

We'll find out Sunday night, I guess. (Unless the video is leaked first.)

If you're not sure if my comment warrants a "/s", it probably does.

The Children of the Forest used their magic to plunge a dragonglass blade into the man to create the Night King. So, although your Cersei as the Night Queen theory is juicy, I don't think she can create the same kind of magic (unless Clyburn can)

I'm taking the approach that since Arya killed the NK she has his essence inside her and needs to pass it along. Cersei gets the death touch.

Cersei would look great with horns!

she has his essence inside her

That's Gendry's essence not the NKs, also ewww

Just read through some of the comments on the old thread. That was exhausting. I loved the last episode and I've loved this entire season. Like someone said, it was early season Thrones style. Plotting for something bigger. I'm really not sure why folks expect Dany and her forces to be perfect. There'd be nothing left for the season. Did people really expect Dany's army to roll over Cersei? No way. The cast has gone on the record to say that the last part of the season is really dark and twisted. Plenty left to unfold.

I have no idea why my username is VT_Warthog.

Arkansas blew a 24-0 lead in the Belk Bowl.

I'm not sure people were expecting Dany's army to roll over Cersei. I think they were wondering how Dany thinks her army is going to roll over Cersei.

EDIT: Having seen Endgame last night, I'm reminded of a brief conversation between Nebula and Thanos.
Nebula: They didn't see it coming.
Thanos: The arrogant never do.

I guess my point is you should expect Dany and her forces to run into trouble.

Also, it's important to remember there are theories that Sansa is plotting and undermining Dany by sending a raven to inform Cersei. So a lot of these actions could be explained later.

I have no idea why my username is VT_Warthog.

Arkansas blew a 24-0 lead in the Belk Bowl.

I've never been fan of Sansa but damn if she did that I'd be pissed.

Directions from Blacksburg to whoville, go north till you smell it then go east until you step in it

Fan made trailer for "Arya and the Hound:

LINK

Jon Snow is going to be forced to kill Dany - valyrian steel to the heart - then we'll get to see "Lightbringer". Problem is Lightbringer won't be an awesome sword, but Dany will become the FIRE QUEEN (opposite of Night King - see what I did there). A Song of Fire and Ice?

Series ends with Dany flying off on a flaming dragon, and all of the snow in the North melts. Winter was coming, was here, now it's gone, and summer is here forever. Shit just got real for a new generation in Westeros.

"Dick to Hyman? DICK TO HYMAN!" - Guy in Lane Stadium crowd when Richard Johnson hit Josh Hyman on reverse pass in 2004.

And that Westeros' name? Albert Einstein.

Really? Womanmade global warming?

Woke would kill the fan base.

This is going to be great for the ACC.

This is the series that hooked me with Ned Starks beheading, made me a fanatic with the Red Wedding, made me giggle with glee with Joffery's choking and made me scream in horror at Oberyns skull imploding.

It's a show about shocking changes. Don't give me Jon and Dany win Kings Landing, Arya as Jaime killing Cersei, Hound killing The Mtn. That's all too easy and predictable.

Finish strong.

Would Tyrion on the Throne be too predictable for you? I agree that Dany or Jon is too predictable, but I also don't want it to be so out of left field.

It wouldn't have been if they hadn't made him a massive idiot the past few seasons. At this point it'd be surprising if he came up with a plan that didn't fail.

Joffrey, Cersei, Ilyn Payne, the Hound, Jeff Jagodzinski, Paul Johnson, Pat Narduzzi.

Nah the series has made the bad guys win way too damn much (literally the whole time). Gotta wrap it up with a good guy win or something neutral. I kind of want the white walkers to come back

Lots of money on Sansa lately. Her odds have dropped considerably and she is now a bigger favorite in Vegas than Jon and Dany.

I have no idea why my username is VT_Warthog.

Arkansas blew a 24-0 lead in the Belk Bowl.

Given the Cersei prophecy said she'd be replaced by someone younger and more beautiful and everyone thinks it'll be Danaerys, Sansa has been my favorite to win it for a long time. If that new money is due to leaks then it's pretty much confirmed

There are three scenarios that I'm really not into that have been proposed or hinted at:

-Full on, unredeemed Mad Queen Dany. I've discussed my issues with this one from a character development standpoint. My hope is that right now they are pushing Dany to the brink only to pull her back, leading to some kind of breakthrough that doesn't involve her burning thousands of innocent people in the Red Keep.

-Super evil plotting Sansa to take take the throne by orchestrating everyone killing each other for her to step in at the last minute. To make more sense in the world, all things considered, Sansa ruling an autonomous North is probably more in line with established plot constructs and world mythology (example: must always be a Stark in Winterfell). Also, everything Sansa's been through turning her into essentially a more intelligent Cersei feels like an extremely dark ending. It's tragic, yes, but it doesn't feel like that is true to GRRM's theme of the broken, battered, bastards, and lowest of people rising to the top through adversity.

-Any ending with someone ruling the Seven Kingdoms in any way remotely resembling how things have been all along. The wheel needs to be broken one way or another. How unsatisfying would it be if the show ends with some normal ass ruler having to talk to the Master of Coin, and make decisions about crop yields, while trying to manage control of all the houses? I think all the kingdoms should be reestablished with a ruler and given autonomy.

Looks like they went with Idea #1...

Now finish up them taters; I'm gonna go fondle my sweaters.

2-A2129-AC-CBAB-42-F9-8-B1-A-F5-BBD01-A43-AB

Tyrod did it Mikey, Tyrod did it!!

8-DD50515-51-CC-48-D3-8-D42-0-C037-C3-A0-DCB

Tyrod did it Mikey, Tyrod did it!!

8-BE803-F7-3-EC9-4077-8-C4-E-562-BDF6-D89-BB

Tyrod did it Mikey, Tyrod did it!!

D8-D18-B47-A018-4-C1-B-B303-E1-D9171-D5-FA7

Tyrod did it Mikey, Tyrod did it!!

Ok, I'm done for now. Can't wait to see who dies tonight.

Tyrod did it Mikey, Tyrod did it!!

I offended Mrs. Wildturkey84 yesterday and part of my apology was to suggest she pretend that whoever dies tonight is me. It kinda worked, actually.

I can't wait for the penultimate episode!

So is the internet right and Aaron Rodgers will have a cameo tonight?

Wet stuff on the red stuff.

Join us in the Key Players Club

As you all might imagine I am quite unhappy.

Woah.

Amateur superstar and idiot extraordinaire.

Now that is a Mad Queen if I've ever seen one.

Another white bronco? The first one didn't go too far.

Damn it. I knew Sandor would bite the dust in a glorious way but by shit I wanted him to live. That one hurt as much as Hodor.

Tyrod did it Mikey, Tyrod did it!!

The Golden Company my ass.

Tyrod did it Mikey, Tyrod did it!!

So the horse scene is in relation to the horse Khal gave Dany? Does that sound correct or am I just reading into it too much?

Another white bronco? The first one didn't go too far.

Death rides a pale horse.

Tyrod did it Mikey, Tyrod did it!!

I think she's riding to go find the lord of stormborn to drum up a United 7 kingdom rebellion against the targaryens.

Recruit Prosim

I have no idea why they spent that much time on a horse scene

That one was rough. I guess that settles the Mad Queen debate

In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.

Guess we know how that coin landed.

Tyrod did it Mikey, Tyrod did it!!

Poor Arya. TFW you can finally cross off your entire list...but then you have to start a new list.

"How the ass pocket will be used, I do not know. Alls I know is, the ass pocket will be used."
- The BoD

I think she has a new name for her list.

Correy

That's how I was hoping the episode ended - with Arya laying down to sleep after the battle and whispering "daenerys Targaryen"

Here lies It's a Stroman Jersey I Swear, surpassed in life by no one because he intercepted it.

yeah...Daenerys has green eyes, right?

Now finish up them taters; I'm gonna go fondle my sweaters.

She didn't list a name....

In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.

Actually they're purple

I too find church bells annoying but DAMN Dany. Like chill.

I'm not even mad anymore, I am just incredibly sad. You can't fix this.

Yeah. I didn't even want to finish the episode. It's so disappointing.

Joffrey, Cersei, Ilyn Payne, the Hound, Jeff Jagodzinski, Paul Johnson, Pat Narduzzi.

What specifically don't you like. I don't hate the Dany becoming the true villain twist, although it wasn't done as well as it could've. The worst to me was that burning people didn't accomplish shit for her. The armies had already stormed the city and all she had to do was kill Cersei. Why burn random ass parts of the city, it didn't make any sense

It feels very forced.
I still cant conjure up any real hatred towards dany. She's not like Cersei to me who was an evil bitch wire to wire in the show. Or Ramsey and Joffrey who were monsters we saw torture innocent people for sport over multiple seasons. Dany just wiped out a bunch of extras. Yes I know they were innocent but we formed no connection with them. It's hard to all of a sudden hate Dany over it.

Cersei's death (alleged) was very unsatisfying as I said below.

That "part that didn't make any sense" was like 80% of the episode. What also didn't make any sense included:
- Jaime being captured trying to get past the lines. Arya and the Hound ride on through.
- ballistas no longer being able to hit anything and Dany destroying the Iron Fleet in moments when she could have last week
- the Golden Company- boy were they ever pointless
- the reappearance of the Dothraki after we watched them all die
- the Euron and Jaime fight
- Dany not just flying to the Red Keep and burning Cersei instead of flying around the outskirts of the city burning innocents for hours
- Jaime apparently really didn't change and returned to save Cersei. Huh?

I hate the Dany turning into Mad Queen thing as it's been forced all season and poorly executed. Even the Clegane Bowl wasn't that enjoyable and I don't understand why they had them fight on a stairwell, which limited the action. Honestly I struggle to come up with a single thing I would say was well done. This season has been an utter failure and ruined the entire series. It's not quite final season of Dexter bad but it feels like everything we've learned about these characters over 7 seasons has gone out the window for no reason.

Joffrey, Cersei, Ilyn Payne, the Hound, Jeff Jagodzinski, Paul Johnson, Pat Narduzzi.

but it feels like everything we've learned about these characters over 7 seasons has gone out the window for no reason.

You hit the nail on the head. If you have recently watched the previous 7, which I had the opportunity to do while my roommate got caught up in the gap before this season, it's like this season just ignores everything before it. Sure you can find a few moments in the last 70+ hours of the show to justify what's happening with some characters, but all of those moments have hours of character development to the contrary.

Not to mention the last two episodes lacked subtlety, nuance, and subtext that have been the strength of the show. Everything we are supposed to feel is being explicitly stated over and over again with no subtlety. However, nobody who watched the first seven seasons was buying the force feed because just saying it doesn't make it make sense.

The Arya running through the streets seeing burning people and scared civilians was so on the nose most people in the room with me tonight were audibly groaning.

Even the Clegane Bowl wasn't that enjoyable and I don't understand why they had them fight on a stairwell, which limited the action

It made sense to me. Sandor was positioned so that he had to look up to his big brother. The instance where his armor was off and you could only see his outline made him look like a mountain. The backdrop scenery was just amazing.

Tyrod did it Mikey, Tyrod did it!!

I thought the fight itself was good, but we knew they were both going to die anyways so it didnt even feel like there was anything at stake. Just felt contrived to me.

The visuals were amazing but still the fight felt very forced and came at a point where it no longer had any meaning or impact on the story outside of paying service to the fan desire for Cleganebowl.

Joffrey, Cersei, Ilyn Payne, the Hound, Jeff Jagodzinski, Paul Johnson, Pat Narduzzi.

Killing his brother has been the Hounds purpose from day 1. He made a point to tell Sansa "only 1 thing will make me happy".

Tyrod did it Mikey, Tyrod did it!!

Disagree. Yes, he hated his brother since the beginning, but he spent the vast majority of the show doing things that didn't convey a singular focus on revenge.

Joffrey, Cersei, Ilyn Payne, the Hound, Jeff Jagodzinski, Paul Johnson, Pat Narduzzi.

His whole arc was to show Arya that there's more to life than revenge... He lived his whole life to kill his brother and it would be the end of him. He showed her that it's not worth it and to let it go like he couldn't.

I agree with some of your points. I thought there may have been more creative ways for Danny to lose it than just sitting there waiting for bells to toll and burning it all to the ground like her father wanted.
Ill take your points point by point
1. Jaime being captured trying to get past the lines. Arya and the Hound ride on through: Arya is a Stark and there are no questions where her loyalties lie. Jamie OTOH is not. AND Brienne would have certainly notified someone that Jamie was headed back to King's Landing. So when he tries to pass through the lines they would have been looking for him and he was easy to spot. The allied forces aren't going to question Arya's allegiance and why she is going to KL.
2. ballistas no longer being able to hit anything and Dany destroying the Iron Fleet in moments when she could have last week: Agreed, lazy writing IMO.
3. the Golden Company- boy were they ever pointless: Agreed. Should have had some sort of battle or allow them to see Drogon wiped out the lannister army and then they throw down their swords. Afterall, they're sell swords. Instead they get wiped out immediately.
4. the reappearance of the Dothraki after we watched them all die: Not all of them died. Several retreated back after their charge. Heck, more Unsullied would have died as well. They were on the other side of the fire line at the Battle of Winterfell.
5. the Euron and Jaime fight: I had no problem with this, but why didn't Euron's niece get to come back and take some measure of revenge?
6. Dany not just flying to the Red Keep and burning Cersei instead of flying around the outskirts of the city burning innocents for hours: Agreed. Lazy writing IMO. Could have some sort of battle, then Danny about to accept a surrender from Cersei then wildfire blows up killing some of Danny's people, then Danny going off burning the red keep and everything around it. Cersei and the mountain escaping, the mountain fighting the hound, Cersei almost making it out only to be captured by Army of the north. Jon then carrying out the sentence as he was taught. That would be a better ending IMHO
I do think Cersei crying and breaking down actually stays in line with her character development. So I have no problem with her crying when the keep crashes down on her.
7. Jaime apparently really didn't change and returned to save Cersei: Disagree. This makes a lot of sense to me. Same with Tyrion. Wouldn't Tyrion want her to die after all she did to him? But they're family and in the end family bonds are more important than anything to all of them. Add in the love J and C have for one another, it is not surprising who or what Jamie is. he said it in season 7 at the Riverlands. He only cares about Cersei and he woudl kill every man woman and child in the Riverlands to get back to her.
All in all, I do not disagree with the story line of Danny eventually losing it, the hints have been there for 5 seasons now. She has had to be pulled back a few times by her advisers., only to lose the closest people to her after following their advice. Now she is going to do things her (and the Dothroki) way. I just don't like the way it was done. They could have been a little more creative IMO. Last night was about as 1 sided as it got. Maybe that was the point so that they can justify having everyone else turn on her. i thought Jon would turn after the battle if/when Danny would force Jon to chose between Sansa and Arya and her, but I think that ship has sailed.

Correy

I really hope Cersei is alive. Usually in GoT if you dont see them bleed out and their eyes shut, they aren't dead.

If at the end of all this Cersei dies from a roof collapsing while being consoled in Jamie's arms I will be pissed. She had nothing up her sleeve? No final exchange with Dany or any of the Starks? No telling Dany that she is the true monster right before being burned alive? This would be like Lord Voldemort dying of a heart attack in his sleep at the end of Harry Potter.

Greyworms such a piece of shit. Never really liked him much to begin with

I'm mixed about this ending.

I like Cleganbowl. It was some amazing scenery in the backgrounds and ultimate death was great.

Arya's whole journey is interesting. Is she coming back from the darkness of being no one? Will she become the Lady of Storm's End?

Jaime not killing Cersei.... hmm... little disappointed at that. Also at the convenience of Euron washing up at exactly the right time and place to fight him.

Mad Dany. It's how I was expecting it to go. I don't think there was enough pull on her emotions shown in the show to see why she would blatantly slaughtering so many innocent people though, especially after she had fought so hard to spare them in Slaver's Bay. But then again perhaps Meereen taught her that some cities can't be saved, but must be rebuilt. I was hoping for more symbolism with the Red Keep. Would have loved to see her utterly destroy it and the throne room left standing in rubble. She lands with Drogon in front of the Iron Throne and melts that thing down to a molten puddle. Missed opportunity IMO.

Jon was pretty true to form.

Tyrion has now flipped.

Varys, while right, ultimately got what he deserved. Not sure how he thought he could get away with that shit at Dragonstone.

I enjoyed seeing Qyburn getting his skull bashed in and thrown down the hall.

BUT... the biggest issue here is that somehow the Iron Fleet and all of King's Landing somehow got physics to finally apply to them. Scorpions couldn't hit shit. Boats slow to turn around for shots. Dany on approach vectors that inhibit shooting angles. Scorpions taking time to reload massive bolts. I mean, I agree with all of this but what a difference and episode makes in terms of Westrosi laws of physics.

I wasn't as blown away by this episode though. Battle of Winterfell was MUCH better. The only question to remain, who kills Dany?

There are still 6 people I could see possibly coming out on top in the end. If Jon could have shown Dany a little more love in the last show maybe she wouldn't have lost it; however, last chance for a happy ending is gone and only sad and nasty is left.

Gotta be John

Recruit Prosim

Anyone else love episode 5? Felt like a throwback to seasons 1-6 to me. Everything was surprising but still made sense. Best episode in a while imo.

Twitter me

How you watched that and were reminded of seasons 1-6 is astounding to me.

Most of what happened in this episode was a throw back to previous seasons, especially Season 1. John being like Ned and being honorable over what is probably right. Jamie being referenced as King Slayer, Dany's Brother saying "you don't want to wake the dragon" in the voice overview right before the episode. Varys with the little bird scene, even though he didn't have them anymore. Jamie and Tyrion scenes, similar in earlier seasons. So there were a lot of call backs to previous seasons

All those things are just minor parts of the episode. It was nothing like season 1. I actually just rewatched season 1. Jon is always honorable. So that isnt a change. Jaime being called kingslayer? Uh, ok i guess byt that was like one line in probably the dumbest scene in the episode.

What you are describing is just simply called call backs. They made references. That doesnt make the episode like season 1 though. At least. Not in the way people would want it to be.

We are back to every make bad decisions!

So happy with this episode. So enjoyable.

We're in the minority but I actually loved it. This isn't the first time Dany laid waste to a city (Astapor) and she couldn't free them since they all sided with Cersie. Also she was carrying Jaime's kid so while I thought he would kill her it also wasn't a total shock that he didn't. The only part that felt a little off was the Euron part but whatever, he's dead now. Can't wait to see the finale next week.

Without getting too deep in details - my hot take is that this episode we just watched had good energy/action and felt suspenseful (something that had been lacking in some of the recent episodes for me other than the big war episode). I liked it. I didn't get a PC feel from it, which sometimes rears it's ugly head in the show. Pretty human, with humans being - well, unpredictable. Not that crazy that Kingslayer wanted to see his lady. Nice the way the hound took out the mountain. Lotta death and sadness - felt like more legit GOT.

"I play real sports, not trying to be the best at exercising..." - KP

After tonight's episode, I am convinced I know how the show ends. I don't check up on spoilers so this is just my theory. GOT begins with Robert's Rebellion overthrowing Aegon, the Mad King. Aegon has two children (Dany and Viserys) who are shipped away to safety. They grow up believing it is their destiny to overthrow the Usurper, Robert Baratheon and reclaim their father's throne. I believe that Jaime and Cersei actually live (didn't see their bodies crushed and the building collapsing provides an exit where before there wasn't one) and escape to safety where their child can be born. Their child grows up believing it is their destiny to overthrow the Usurper, Danerys and reclaim their mother's throne. And it all starts all over again. The wheel Danerys came to break keeps on spinning.

I think Jaime and Cersei are dead but instead of a cycle I think it's a symmetry. I think it began and will end with a Baratheon rebellion. I think Arya is riding to Gendry who will being together a United 7 kingdoms to fight Dany... who has to ultimately get killed by John

Recruit Prosim

No way Gendry has any credibility to bring 7 kingdoms together.

Well he was made a legitimate heir to Robert Baratheon by Danerys...

So?

So they have the north, the veil, storms end, the Riverlands, and iron isles. I could see some deus ex machina shit with dorne and the other kingdoms.

Recruit Prosim

Sure they could get a coalition, but it ain't Gendry who's unifying it though.

I don't think it'll happen either, but if for some reason people wanted a true heir of Robby B back on the throne, maybe it could be possible

In the world of GMMR anything is possible, but highly unlikely nonetheless.

That's all I'm suggesting. I agree with you 100% on this

Holy shit. Holy fucking shit. They took one of the best shows to ever grace television and turned into a steaming pile of shit. The last two seasons have been bad, but this...this was next level shit. Everything single thing in that episode was shit. The logic was shit. The deaths were shit. 10 years of some of the best world building and character development and you find out it ends in shit. SHIT

so did you like it?

"Why gobble gobble chumps asks such good questions, I will never know." - TheFifthFuller

Eh, it was alright.

Stupid shit...

My optimal ending with the current storyline: Arya tries to kill Dany, she fails and Dany has her burned. Jon gets super pissed and takes his remaining army to fight her, sends Davos, and the Knights of the Vale back to Sansa to get the rest of the army. Jon's troops fight the unsullied and he kills Greyworm, but his troops are eventually overwhelmed and beaten. Tyrion and Bronn (who realizes he only has one last chance to get that castle) help him escape and they head back to Winterfell. The other houses hear about what happened at Kings Landing and refuse to back Dany except Dorne and the Iron Islands. Dany vows to burn all that oppose her reign, drops the "burn them all" line.

Jon leads an army consisting of northmen and the Vale. They're joined by Edmure Tully and the Riverlanders, Gendry and an army from Storm's end, remaining Lannister soldiers , and rest of the soldiers from the Reach who are now loyal to Sam. Dany has her armies plus Dorne and the Iron Islanders. Yara is uncertain about the whole thing because of Theon, Dany basically tells her to deal with it. Tyrion tries to bargain for peace, Dany feigns agreement then burns the negotiating party of Davos, Royce, and Brienne. Spares Tyrion and sends him back, blames it all on him. Yara switches sides. They know they can't beat Dany so they decide to try and take as many people to Essos as they can. More ships arrive, it's Tormund and Ghost with Stannis's fleet, they've scooped all the civilians from the North.

Jon wants to lead a surprise diversion attack so everyone else can escape but Bran says he must stay. Gendry offers to lead the attack. Dany is ready for it and her forces win easily, everyone gets burned. The last ship to leave has all the main characters. Bran tells them Gendry lost, Dany will get there in minutes and burn them all. There's only one way to stop her and buy them enough time to leave, the same way the children of the forest stopped the first men. Sam cries as he's forced to stab his best friend in the heart with dragonglass. This was the purpose the lord of light brought Jon back for. The last ship sails away as Night King Jon turns to fight Danaerys and Drogon. So ends a song of Ice and Fire.

So, the realm of hard core book readings (warning, book spoilers below?) on Twitter/reddit have made me get that episode more. Last night was a bit messy I think because it closed so loopholes/storyline we never got fully played out in the show, or because some of the early prophecies and visions happened like 5-6 years ago now and are hard to remember. Joe pointed out after last night dany's vision of a destroyed throne room covered in ashes at the house of the undying for one. Also, GRRM still hasn't moved the chess pieces enough yet in the books, but a lot of people think at this point the fake Aegon may actually sit on the iron throne since he's the one Varys/the golden company are backing.

Plus, let's not pretend Dany wasn't stopped from killing loads more people earlier on because she was restrained by her advisors and didn't have great control of her dragons for awhile. She came to break the wheel, not enter the gates and sign a peace treaty with the family who killed her father and her remaining family.

How anyone can say Dany didn't have this in her was putting her on a pedestal instead of watching/reading the things she has done, had done to her and her linage.

Her brother molesting her.
Being raped after her wedding.
Finally falling for her husband and him turning into a vegetable and she having to kill him.
Her unborn child dying.
Slaughtering the slave masters of the unsullied.
Seeing slaves crucified on her March because of her.
Then she crucified the slave masters in return.
Killing the Khal's with fire.
Losing her Dothraki to protect Winterfell.
Having her most loyal advisor and maybe friend beheaded.

Wet stuff on the red stuff.

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Not one of these things suggest she would suddenly decide to murder thousands of innocent people.

They had been setting up the internal dilemma between her compassion and her pursuit of the Iron Throne for years, and when she faced that crossroads, which would she sacrifice for the other? In last night's episode she didn't have to choose between them, she had already won the battle and the throne, and with relatively minimal casualties. She then makes a decision in victory to orchestrate a mass killing of innocent people and completely destroy the city. It doesn't require "a pedestal" to understand why this does not align with the first 7 seasons of her character.

I would argue it does, especially if you had read the books.

Wet stuff on the red stuff.

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so are you actually gonna make the argument or nah?

"Why gobble gobble chumps asks such good questions, I will never know." - TheFifthFuller

You can be dark and troubled and the decision in the context of last night's episode still not make sense or feel earned. The article you posted even specifically talks about how this decision doesn't feel earned.

The writing this season has been of a much lower quality. Here's a perspective from a writer on how the writing has changed and what it has done to characters. So much of that "I feel like I'm watching a different show" is discussed in this thread. Writers are usually very sympathetic to other writers and the various struggles involved. I think he is being perhaps too kind at times in this, and more optimistic, but I agree with most of his overall points and they explain a lot of the ire around this season.

That thread is really interesting but he doesn't say the writing is of a lower quality. He says it's fundamentally different and has been for a season or two. It wasn't about GRMM source material, it was about taking GRMM's "1,000 spinning plates" and wrapping it up.

This was inevitable. Everyone could see it and I think I see some rationalization that it was some flaw in the process when the problem seems more that people didn't like the solution.

This turned into a Choose Your Own Adventure Book about when Arya was getting trained. Since then, it feels like we all have our own direction that we would have taken it and when it doesn't go that way (like me being annoyed that Jaimie would sleep with Brienne), we blame it on D&D (and never GRMM who created this rather chaotic world he can't even finish).

Well, yes, the writing being poor has been pointed out by many critics, people on here, myself, etc. That part was added by me at the beginning of the paragraph, not meant to be what the thread is explaining, but that was unclear on my part. The thread was explaining why the show feels different because of the change in style. However, it has had a negative effect on the show, which he points out without saying the writing is bad. Writers rarely are super critical of other writers, it's just an industry thing i've noticed over time. It's a difficult thing to do and they understand each others struggles I guess.

The bad writing stuff is the forced nature and plot contrivances for the convenience of the points they are trying to land at ultimately instead of it happening organically or making sense. Also, an example of poor writing in my (and many others') opinion(s) is having Dany decide to slaughter thousands of innocent people AFTER she's already won. They have hinted at the "crossroads" where she may have to choose between her pursuit of the throne and her compassion, both of which have been integral parts of her character to this point. They failed to put her in a dilemma, and instead we got the most unnecessarily cruel version of her "going crazy." For someone who spent so much of this story protecting innocents and the lowest of people groups, for her to kill innocents without reason felt like a betrayal of her character. You can still go the Mad Queen route without turning her into a genocidal butcher.

Not to argue, but I think I'm actually with Fireman on this one. Some of it does feel a little bit forced, but all of Dany's life, she has been told that when she comes to Westeros to remove Robert (and then Cersei), the people would rally around her and rejoice that the true heir has returned. When Danerys finally comes to Westeros and to Kings Landing, the people are running in fear from their "savior" and looking to the Lannister army to protect them from the "invaders". My take is that Dany is trying to let it go, but she sees each and every person in Kings Landing as having personally betrayed her by not be overjoyed at her return. This is in contrast to the places in Essos that she liberated. Those people owed her nothing and truly were innocents in her eyes; she cannot see the people in Kings Landing the same way.

Yep, this. She thinks they deserved it for not rebelling against Cersei. Her "I didn't kill Varys, Sansa and Varys killed Varys" speech is more of the same. These people had a choice, didn't choose her so they are her enemies.

She needs to be loved, that's what her arc was all about. When she saw that Jon was loved and she was feared, that was it. Not sure why people see this as such a departure. It's been there all along.

We've also seen her take extraordinary measures to make the innocent people of cities are unharmed and can lead a better life. Sure, things haven't turned out like she hoped in Westeros, but fucking lighting the people on fire is so out of character. She even delayed coming to Westeros for like 2 seasons to spend time in a slave city to protect them.

I get that she is upset, especially at Cersei, but why not just fly over to the Red Keep and destroy that. Firebombing the city just made no sense. No sense at all. She has always been able to get people to love her, even if they didn't to begin with. I don't know why all of a sudden she thinks that no one in Westeros will ever love her just because of Jon. She can rule by fear without killing everyone.

Didn't her advisors and Grey Worm have to convince her to let them sneak in to liberate the cities slaves because she just wanted to attack?

Wet stuff on the red stuff.

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I don't think her character has really changed that suddenly. It's easy to forget that this season and last took place over several months. The events causing her madness to rear up have been festering in her mind. She's had weeks or months to brood about Jon's claim to the throne and paranoia can have a pretty intense effect on someone's mental state, especially when they're already fragile due to recent events and the deaths of close friends. I still think with torching the "innocents" in Kings Landing it's more that she doesn't really see them as innocents. I think she was trying to let it go, but she was upset already and for whatever reason, she just snapped during the battle. She saw all the people that had sheltered within the walls of Kings Landing as traitors and maybe the Targaryen madness blinded her to just how many of her own people she was probably killing too.

It's easy to forget that this season and last took place over several months

Well except for Cersei's pregnancy as that seemingly never progressed. If they truly intended for the viewer to be aware of the timeline taking place over months, they did a terrible job of conveying it.

Joffrey, Cersei, Ilyn Payne, the Hound, Jeff Jagodzinski, Paul Johnson, Pat Narduzzi.

I stand by my original points, but the pregnancy bit is interesting and I hadn't really considered it. With all the traveling and everything that's been going on, it's definitely been implied to have been quite a while, but her pregnancy really doesn't seem to progress much. However FWIW with some quick online research, it looks like it can take up to 3 to 4 months for women who have had children before to start looking obviously pregnant

It's also plausible that Cersei wasn't actually pregnant and was just using it as a power card. It definitely worked on both her brothers.

Honestly I didn't think she was pregnant, as that doesn't fit the Maggie the Frog prophecy, but they never addressed it in any other way and (seemingly) buried Cersei under a pile of rubble in Jaime's arms after talking about their baby so... I don't see why viewers are expected to make up theories to try to make sense of the story they've chosen to show to us.

Joffrey, Cersei, Ilyn Payne, the Hound, Jeff Jagodzinski, Paul Johnson, Pat Narduzzi.

Yeah, I don't really get where all this talk about character assassination and how her actions don't make any sense given what we know about her. This is completely within character for her... How many times has she talked about burning all those who oppose her. She's also obsessed with being the queen. 1/4 of the time she opens her mouth it's to say some form of "Bend the knee..."

I fully believe that she thought she was going to show up to King's Landing, beat the Golden Company, and then or even before everyone will immediately start praising and worshiping her. The inhabitants of a city that is doing pretty well is a whole other beast than a city of slaves when you come in smashing everything with a dragon.

The civilians didn't oppose her any more than anyone else who isn't the current status quo in the in the red keep.

The portrayal her 'break' was very odd. Up until the surrender she was focused on destroying Cersei's army and ignoring the civilians. Her army was pretty much exclusively engaging the Lannister army as well. It's not like any of them were actively engaging civilians or destroying the city infrastructure.

As soon as the Lannister army / the city surrenders she goes full psycho on the non-combatants instead of redirecting to the remaining enemy force in the Red Keep.

If she was going into this situation with the goal of inflicting harm on the civilians as much as the Lannister army, why did it take a surrender to trigger that action? Doesn't make any sense, even from a 'shes nuts' viewpoint.

But this doesn't help her get there, it's unrelated. And if she's trying to just kill the Lannister soldiers, why have your armies attack them if you're just going to burn them. Plus she ended up burning plenty of her own. That shit didn't make any sense and it wouldn't have been that hard to come up with a situation that did.

I have read the books, and so have many of the people I've spoken with, or read their takes on the instance in question. I haven't seen one article, respectable or otherwise, praising that decision as believable or earned.

They actually could not have foreshadowed it more imo. Like they were very blunt about it the entire show.

Recruit Prosim

torching enemies, sure, but not indiscrimately torching non-combatants

You're dead on, and the foreshadow argument is inconsistent because they have hinted at, foreshadowed, and shown a half of dozen prophecies that came to nothing. Some have come true, some big ones have fizzled out completely. If this decision wasn't made then nobody would be bringing this up saying it should have happened. It's all confirmation bias.

The Targaryen girl has threatened to burn entire cities since she got baby dragons.

This is going to be great for the ACC.

To be fair, what's the point of having dragons if you can't threaten to incinerate cities from time to time?

Maybe her laying waste to King's Landing was just her version of Truman dropping the bomb? /SSSSSSSSS

"How the ass pocket will be used, I do not know. Alls I know is, the ass pocket will be used."
- The BoD

Now finish up them taters; I'm gonna go fondle my sweaters.

Personally, I'm with Fireman on this simply because where else do they have to go with her? She's shown streaks of ruthlessness throughout the series, and now the things she loves (Two of her dragons, Missandei, Jorah) are dying off, coupled with how the people of Kings Landing have not warmly received her arrival and how she clearly has viewed Jon Snow as a threat ever since he told her his true identity. I think this was the only place for them to go with Dany, though the execution could be better.

My biggest issue with the current season is with it only being 6 episodes your not getting the scenes you would normally get. For example we should have seen Bran telling Sansa and Arya about Jon's true beginning. See their reactions etc.

Wet stuff on the red stuff.

Join us in the Key Players Club

Therein lies my biggest qualm with season. I understand they have to wrap things up in lightening type fashion, but if we had to wade thru all of that boring Bran shit for years only for him not to have one last (BIG) say in the series I'll be rather disappointed. Not saying I'm a big Bran fan, I'm not. But damn some of those scenes were brutally boring.

Amateur superstar and idiot extraordinaire.

Despite all the complaining - and not even including the potential spin-offs trajectory - it also seems true to GRRM style of "fuck what the reader wants. Life isn't fair and you deal with it" mentality. Just like he killed off so many characters that we love, if this ends unsatisfactorily then it'll be another arrow in that quiver. He doesn't have to please us with tying up loose story lines and ends. He's going to end it the way he wants to end it and we have to deal with it.

Rarely however do characters do things out of left field. GRRM is excellent about world and character building so that things that occur make total sense.

So while I agree that the "What" in terms of how things go down is what he intended, the "Why" is lacking do tothe speed with which they have to wrap everything up.

So, the horse Arya road out on, was the White Horse or the Pale Horse?

This is going to be great for the ACC.

I think it symbolizes the horse toy that the little girl Arya tries to save is carrying. They made a point to show her carrying it several times and the scene showing her charred body clutching it. Maybe this is one of the things that pushes her to go after Dany.

Would have been cool if Bran had warged into a horse to save his sister.

Tyrod did it Mikey, Tyrod did it!!

Would be cool if Bran would do anything at all

You got your wish.

Ok, symbolism is cool and all but it needs to at least make some sense. Why tf is there a prestine white horse in the middle of a ravaged road? It was like waiting for her like an Uber driver.

Pristine may not be the correct word since it is covered in blood.

Unharmed may be a better term.

"I'm too drunk to taste this chicken" - Colonel Sanders via Ricky Bobby

that mane, tho...

Her toy has blood on it too.

Tyrod did it Mikey, Tyrod did it!!

Is that the same horse the head of the golden company got knocked off of when Drogon blasted through the gate?

Correy

Lol at the 560 parents in the US that named their new born daughter Khaleesi in 2018

Now finish up them taters; I'm gonna go fondle my sweaters.

Better invest in fire insurance.

Tyrod did it Mikey, Tyrod did it!!

I saw that list of GoT names people named my kids. My first and only thought was;

"Who the fuck watched this show and decided it was a good idea to name their son Theon?"

Kind of surprised Xaro Xhoan Daxos wasn't on the list. /s

Pretty much the most bad ass name on GoT if you ask me

Some parents named their kid Cersei. At least I'd guess parents naming their child Ramsey aren't GoT fans. Still, I'd take them all over Reek.

Joffrey, Cersei, Ilyn Payne, the Hound, Jeff Jagodzinski, Paul Johnson, Pat Narduzzi.

Naming your daughter Cersei isn't all that bad. Just make sure you don't name your other kid Jamie

You know some poor kid got named Reek.

This is going to be great for the ACC.

Kinda like a modern day version of A Boy Named Sue.

"How the ass pocket will be used, I do not know. Alls I know is, the ass pocket will be used."
- The BoD

Personally, I've enjoyed the season. I've enjoyed each episode, then I sign on here and get reading these threads, and feel like I watched something different from all of the season 8 haters. I do not spend too much time trying to predict the way the next episode will go, I do not go into episodes with any expectation, rather just to watch and enjoy.

It's much easier to enjoy it when you don't go into it looking for things to hate, or be disappointed about. Enjoy the finale, I know I will!

Now finish up them taters; I'm gonna go fondle my sweaters.

This. I really don't understand what people expected. I think this was going to be inevitable no matter what. There was no way to wrap all this shit up perfectly. The only think I'd say would have helped is if they would have extended it to a full 10 episodes. They said they didn't have enough material to finish, but I don't think that is true. They just wanted to wrap it up as quick as possible.

I have no idea why my username is VT_Warthog.

Arkansas blew a 24-0 lead in the Belk Bowl.

Budget was also probably a factor. The main character's actors have to be pretty expensive right now.

HBO wanted to continue but D&D made the decision to finish the series.

Joffrey, Cersei, Ilyn Payne, the Hound, Jeff Jagodzinski, Paul Johnson, Pat Narduzzi.

Budget was not a factor. The showrunners themselves have confirmed that HBO wanted to give them whatever resources necessary to end it the right way, even if that meant 5 more seasons. This was before season 7, the show runners more or less said -nope, 13 more episodes, that's it.- That is what forced the different writing style, as described in the twitter thread embedded above - they had a finite number of hours to wrap everything up.

edit - they did not say 13 more episodes, they said 73 hours, which I guess is about what seasons 7 & 8 come to

Now finish up them taters; I'm gonna go fondle my sweaters.

If that's all true, that's one of the biggest WTFs in the entire history of people whatting the fuck.

"How the ass pocket will be used, I do not know. Alls I know is, the ass pocket will be used."
- The BoD

Agreed. At that point if you're HBO tell them to finish their 73 hours or whatever and get new showrunners to continue for five more seasons. I'm sure they aren't the only good directors in Hollywood....

Here lies It's a Stroman Jersey I Swear, surpassed in life by no one because he intercepted it.

Directors are a done a dozen, its writing that's important, and when you have a chance to get the guy that thought up sewing deadpool's mouth shut then wl you have to get him and trust him.

I mean, they probably wanted to move on with their lives, they've been doing this for around 10 years. I'm disappointed in them, but I can't blame them.

Twitter me

That Disney Star Wars money probably had a lot to do with it. If you look closely during the after episode explanations you can actually see the dollar signs in their eyes between the moments of contradicting things they said two episodes ago and mispronouncing the names of the characters on the show.

So you're saying that Kathleen Kennedy has not only screwed up one iconic franchise, but two? Makes sense now.

I've been pretty optimistic about this season and overlooked a lot of minor stuff that everyone has complained about. A few major things happened this episode that were seemingly knee jerk. Like they were set up 1 episode ago very blatantly. I know the series is coming to an end and they need to tie everything up but the stuff they tied up last night seemed like the easy short cut out.

The Hound vs Mountain lived up to the hype. The scenery and filming there was good.

I think everyone knew Dany was going to burn the entire damn city down. This was one of the things that felt cheap and rushed in the past couple episodes as far as character dev.

The above does build the tension between John and Dany.

Arya is out next episode and under CTE protocol her brain is scrabbled eggs after the knocks she's taken this season.

Qyburn's death was actually funny. I don't know if that's what they were going for.

Felt like there had to have been a better way for Cersi to die than under a pile of rocks.

I got the taking out the Iron Fleet think she used the sun and caught them off guard, makes plenty of sense.

I have no idea how she destroyed the other 50 towers without them seemingly getting a single shot off.

Golden companies defense was worse than 2018 Bud Foster and they weren't all underclassman.

(add if applicable) /s

If that is how Jaime and Cersei exit the mortal coil, then that is Lame with a capital L.

Completely unsatisfactory end to two significant characters (not to mention totally destroying when of the best character arcs in the entire series)

The only way it's remotely interesting is if Tyrion sent them down there knowing there would be no way to access a boat, and he was the one that told Jaime.

I think it is much more likely that Tyrion's plan for them backfired as have every single idea Tyrion has had for 3 seasons now.

Now finish up them taters; I'm gonna go fondle my sweaters.

Now finish up them taters; I'm gonna go fondle my sweaters.

Jaimie picked up a sword as he was entering the Red Keep. He went to kill Cersei, didn't he? But when she looked scared and vulnerable, he couldn't. That was my read on it.

(I also don't think they are dead and will row off to safety with their baby to spin the wheel once more).

I think it was more that he didn't want to get attacked by the Unsullied or someone else.

F23-DC933-3-AD5-4-F22-9-D4-A-BAF4226-BB260

Tyrod did it Mikey, Tyrod did it!!

Yeah, its just all too rushed. Don't mind Dany turning, I mean it hurts, but it's compelling. I just don't see why they couldn't have had Cersei put up a better fight, give her a BA ending, and still have Dany sacrifice innocent people in the face of resistance. I guess then John and Arya wouldn't have as clear of a reason to turn on her if they could explain it away as casualties of war? I don't know, it's not all the worst, but its not as satisfying as I hoped either.

So, Jon or Arya kills Dany because she comes for Sansa?

If they kill Dany, what do you do with Drogon? Maybe Drogon accepts Jon because he is a Targaryean and lets Jon ride him, or lets him get close enough to kill Drogon?

"Sooner or later, if man is ever to be worthy of his destiny, we must fill our heart with tolerance."
-Stan Lee

"Never half-ass two things. Whole-ass one thing."
-Ron Swanson

"11-0, bro"
-Hunter Carpenter (probably)

I'm expecting Dany to give some speech where she says everyone in the 7K who doesn't bend the knee will get torched, including you, Winterfell. Arya will kill her, presumably as Grey Worm. Jon walks off to the Real North to hang with Tomund. Tyrion and Sansa rule. Jaime and Cersei row to some island inexplicably still alive so their baby can grow up just like Dany did. And Drogon will fly off into the distance.

Arya crawling back to the lord of storms end for that rebellion lovin

Recruit Prosim

Yeah idk what happens to drogon I mean you've gotta think someone is killing Danny at this point but we've gotta discuss the dragon in the room. He's probably not gonna be accepted by the people considering he just destroyed king's landing. I'm thinking drogon doesn't make it through the end.

(add if applicable) /s

Given the path they have chosen to go with Dany, I can't imagine any kind of peaceful world existing with a Dragon under anyone's control. I think he either dies or maybe flies off again to free roam.

HE'S NEVER WATCHED THE SHOW?!

I will say one thing about this recent episode is how much writers/bloggers have been happy to pull out the word "penultimate" in everything they write about the episode. I mean, it is in just about every article I have read so far.

Well it does mean the second to last.. Not sure what other adjective would be more appropriate?

some guy on The Ringer pulled out "antepenultimate" to describe last week's episode....

"Why gobble gobble chumps asks such good questions, I will never know." - TheFifthFuller

Next episode will be postpenultimate.

This is going to be great for the ACC.

AE9318-EB-5-C46-4-D78-BC0-B-DAD81-A578116

Tyrod did it Mikey, Tyrod did it!!

Also, for everyone mad that Dany turned Mad Queen and that the show is not ending up as they hoped I offer this.....

I wouldn't put any money on this, because quite frankly I do not trust the direction of the show or the writing whatsoever, but I do wonder if they are going the route of Dany ultimately breaking the wheel by being the final tyrant who unites the 7 kingdoms (really just Westeros at this point with things in disarray) against her. At the very least it would have her ultimately achieve her goal, but in a tragic and ironic fashion.

There is only one episode left, so all of the theories I have seen where people are talking about another great battle or some Gendry starting another rebellion, while nice to think about, are just not logical.

I think the most logical at this point is Arya somehow killing Dany using her assassin faceless man skills and Jon ascending the throne, or honestly Dany just taking the throne and ruling on after killing both Jon and Tyrion for treason. Don't be surprise if it is the latter as I noted before, if you think this thing has a happy ending you haven't been paying attention.

Really it'd be very fitting for how this show has gone for her to kill John. Starks don't fare well in Kings Landing. - Someone said that maybe Sansa, not sure but it was definitely said.

(add if applicable) /s

But he's not a Stark.

"How the ass pocket will be used, I do not know. Alls I know is, the ass pocket will be used."
- The BoD

My proposed ending doesn't require a large battle. The uniting of everyone against her can easily be done by a single person killing her (this wouldn't be the first time this type of ending has been used) thus destroying the tyrant who represented exactly what they will strive to never have again, accomplishing the same goal. This ending is perfectly logical within 80 minutes.

I'm not saying your thoughts aren't on the table or even unlikely, but wanted to clarify mine. I also want to clarify that the majority of us who are down on the last two episodes/this season/Dany slaughtering thousands of innocent people did not think we would get a happy ending, just one that made more sense, was less contrived for shock value, and less disappointing. Sad, tragic endings can be good, and they can be bad and forced. Us not liking this direction ≠ we thought a happy ending was a realistic outcome.

Agreed. I was not necessarily trying to contradict your post specifically, just commenting on several ideas I have seen here today that would take way more than one episode to complete.

Either way I think people that were expecting a warm and fuzzy ending were going disappointed regardless.

I agree that some of the execution/pacing of this final season has been a bit forced but overall I have enjoyed it. I expected a dark ending the whole time, so I will be fine with any scenario.

Tyrod did it Mikey, Tyrod did it!!

Safe to say she'll never be this welcome in Kings Landing lol.

Man, what a quick turnaround from "I did not come here to be Queen of the ashes" to "yep lemme just burn this entire city to pieces killing many of my own just because I can".

The same effect could have been had with her just burning the entirety of the Red Keep and would be better keeping her in line with her character.

Oh, how I love r/freefolk.

If you're not sure if my comment warrants a "/s", it probably does.

If this show doesnt ending with Dany killing Jon cause the North to rebel against the Mad ruler I will be sad.

I mean death circle of death.

Other loose ends I've lost track of -
The two Sand Snakes, the mother and daughter, last seen locked up in a Cercei prison........
Arya's direwolf - had the one hello again scene a while back........
Bronn.....just getting drunk with hookers deciding what to do with the crossbow?

The LewDew, Professional Golf Bum

The daughter was poisoned so the mother had to watch her die. It's assumed both are dead now. They weren't all that important as the show didn't do much with Dorne anyway.

The hello again scene is probably all you're gonna get. They barely have time for Ghost. No way they're gonna give time to Nymeria.

Bronn said he'd show back up for his castle once the war was over. He wanted to see who won before making his decision. Smart guy.

I've found the intersection of football and GoT....

If you're not sure if my comment warrants a "/s", it probably does.

I managed two out of that episode.

Arya is out next episode and under CTE protocol her brain is scrabbled eggs after the knocks she's taken this season.

Golden companies defense was worse than 2018 Bud Foster and they weren't all underclassman.

(add if applicable) /s

Not under classman! They were professionals.

I had a realization about what I hate so much about this season and ending to the series (aside from the plot holes, inconsistencies, and other issues that have plagued this season). At the start of the season, the white walkers were made out to be the greatest threat on the show. Basically the entire series from episode 1 had pointed to this being the case and then they used S8E1 to assemble forces and S8E2 to have the characters pondering their likely demise against the white walkers. They survived that threat with minimal character losses and barely even a half assed explanation about the white walkers purpose.

Then the show turned toward Cersei, spending the entirety of S8E4 making it seem like she might have been just a big of a threat all along. Then S8E5... Psyche! We really fooled you guys- Cersei was every bit as weak as it seemed before we spent an episode propping her up as a major threat, while Dany was the most unstable and biggest threat all along. Because you know, seven seasons of largely being a benevolent liberator of innocents be damned, never can tell when a Targaryan will go crazy.

Now we're going to spend the series finale addressing the third "big bad" over the course of 4 episodes in a 6 episode final season. It has all felt terribly rushed and forced, and that's because it so clearly has been.

Joffrey, Cersei, Ilyn Payne, the Hound, Jeff Jagodzinski, Paul Johnson, Pat Narduzzi.

In hindsight it makes so much sense to me that Danerys is and has always been the biggest threat to Westeros.

A significant theme of this show is that people almost never change. There are like 3 examples of people actually being redeemed like Theon, Jorah I guess, I guess Arya has had significant change (not really redemption as she didn't do anything wrong). Most people, Jaime, Ned, little finger, Jon, the hound, Joffrey, Varys, Melisandra, Bron, and countless others are static characters that have held their core identities unwaveringly.

Recruit Prosim

Agree the show is about characters that don't change.

I would argue Arya hasn't changed, she just grew up, she always wanted to be a warrior. She has done every thing to be one.

Sansa has changed in that she isn't naive. She wanted to marry Joffery and be queen, now she wants what's best for the North.

I don't really see Jorah's change either. He did it all for the nookie (but never got said nookie).

But most every is driven by there one main thing, Ned - honor, Jamie - Cersei, Cersei - kids, Hound - mountain, Tommen -Margery, Tormund - Brienne, Bran - how much he can creep every one else out

It's amazing that they thought they could pull off three "main antagonists," with one of them being completely sudden from even the last season, in a four episode span. S7 ended with Daenerys pledging her armies to fight the true evil, the army of the dead, and genuinely not regretting losing one of her dragons in the process of rescuing Jon/Jorah and co. and realizing how real the threat was. About 6 hours of screen time later she is slaughtering thousands of innocent people after she already won the throne.

I do not disagree that there was enough there to justify her ultimately going mad given all the horrible things that have happened to her, how much she has lost recently, and how isolated she feels. I do not think it was necessary to go this route, that route being the fully unredeemable, maximum cruelty Mad Queen, but if that was always the ultimate plan, they could have executed it better. A lot of the filmmaking and acting has been great this season, but the plotting has been garbage, and the nature of making characters make decisions in short periods of time to reach their ultimate ending has created a lot of forced/unearned moments where characters have made enormous changes in far too short periods of time. I've harped on this many times, but the absolute worst part of the way they executed the Mad Queen moment was that they didn't even present a crossroads (she had already won, she didn't have to choose between The Throne and her compassion) AND that if the Red Keep triggered her (which they showrunners have claimed it did), she should have gone straight for the Red Keep, and if she harmed innocents in the process of destroying the Red Keep, that is a far more believable way to show she "went too far." There is absolutely not enough to justify her going street by street burning as many innocent people as possible. She's not proving anything to anyone. Cersei doesn't care about those people, they surrendered to her almost immediately, and she has spent years of her life trying to do her best by the people. I've heard all the explanations that she feels like they "owed" her their immediate allegiance and by standing by Cersei (brief as it was) it was not enough. Such an explanation isn't satisfying just because they said so. The same way that this season they have traded nuanced character building and letting the audience decide how they feel about all the complex characters for just having the characters repetitively tell us exactly how they want us to feel about characters/what's happening. I have felt insulted by how on the nose everything in this season has been in the context of how the show functioned earlier.

Now to my next point, lots of people in here are throwing around anecdotal examples or quotes of her saying various things about burning cities, making a decision that could be seen as over the top, showing her temper, etc. Right now those things are easy to cling to, but we have to look at the entire package. If you look back through everything with the retrospective lens that she was always meant to go mad you will be able to find some foreshadowing, sketchy quotes, etc. However, she has grown as a character throughout the show, she is a fully realized person within the world and for seven seasons we watched her various successes, failures, and personal losses shape her and change her, much like many of the other incredible well built characters in this story. Now, let's say that they decided to bring her to the brink, only for her to realize she refuses to be like her father, and doesn't slaughter thousands of people, we could also in that situation go back and find a bunch of examples of the times she's shown compassion and mercy, and all the times she or other people confidently stated she was different than her father. So this point is less about whether or not her going Mad makes sense, and more about how we would be able to this "find a quote and post it" or "list some examples of her benevolence" if things had been differently.

To better illustrate this point, think about how we would view these two quotes if they had decided to not have her commit Genocide vs. the version we saw last night:

S8E5 Version from Sunday:

In S2 she threatens to burn cities to the ground if they don't agree to follow her (it's been posted on this thread at least twice)

In S7 she tells Olenna Tyrell she doesn't want to be the Queen of Ashes

Outcome: People are using that S2 quote to justify that she was always like this and it makes total sense. People are meme'ing the S7 moment despite it being made by an older, more mature, and seasoned Daenerys and viewed as irony.

Scenario where she decides to NOT become like father:

Outcome: We look at that S2 quote and we discuss how her experiences in leadership, her advisors, and relationships with others shaped her and grew her into someone who would not become like her father. The S7 moment then becomes an example of how much she has grown from S2.

So to conclude this point, this example is not meant to say one is better than the other, just that we would be playing this "look at this quote" and "what about this example?" game if they had gone either route because there were things that align with both outcomes. So posting these quotes as some kind of "I win, trump card" is silly because there are quotes to the contrary and we are going to view them retroactively through the lens of what happened.

I agree that it didn't make sense for her not to go straight to the Red Keep and flame Cersei. The fact that she never went after Cersei or had any exchange with her is such huge miss for me by the show writers. If Dany had gone straight for the Red Keep, killed Cersei, went too far and killed a bunch of innocent people in the process then we are left with some ambiguity as too how this is going to play out. One of the things the show has been great at is leaving characters in a moral grey area. This allows the viewers something to chew on. Are we to view them in a utilitarian light and weigh the sum of good things vs the sum of bad things a character has done? Do we separate decisions from results? What was the intent?

As it is now there is no grey area. Dany is the Mad Queen and is now the final villain who must be killed and then a new ruler/system of govt must be installed in 90 minutes. Perhaps this is just the consequence of having a limited amount of time to wrap things up and plot shortcuts had to be taken.

One of the things the show has been great at is leaving characters in a moral grey area. This allows the viewers something to chew on. Are we to view them in a utilitarian light and weigh the sum of good things vs the sum of bad things a character has done? Do we separate decisions from results? What was the intent?

As it is now there is no grey area. Dany is the Mad Queen and is now the final villain who must be killed and then a new ruler/system of govt must be installed in 90 minutes.

This season has been full of this issue. The start of the Mad Queen Dany stuff was episode 1 when all of sudden Arya, Sansa, and Samwell all knew Dany better (without knowing her at all) than Jorah, Jon, Tyrion, Missandei, Greyworm, Davos, Varys, etc. who actually knew her and had been following her for various ranges spanning many seasons for some characters. They just had characters explicitly state she was a problem until they made her a problem. There was no nuance and the progression was so rushed.

I don't think the point was that Arya, Snsa and Sam knew Dany better than those around her for 7 seasons. Sansa and Arya do not trust any Targarians, Sansa more or less doesn't trust anyone not from the north. The sisters felt they finally got everything back for their family and here comes Dany like a mix of savior and conqueror, not mention Jon was named the King of the North and he bent the knee pissing off the north. As for Sam, while his father hated him, he just learned his father and brother were executed by Dany. He may not have like his father, he and his brother were good and it left his family home vulnerable, so he had damned good reason not to trust or like Dany.

Correy

Poorly executed turn to madness in the show, no doubt. But if your beef is with Dany turning mad in general, it's very very likely what GRRM intended. In a recent interview he said the show's ending will not be that different from his, and he told the show runners how he wanted it to end three years ago. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/how-will-george-rr-martin-final-game-of-thr...

I agree completely that without GRRM's source material the show runners botched the transition. I'm not impressed with how the show has progressed the storytelling in the past two seasons.

But if you take a step back, the turn to evil shows what GRRM's theme was all along—this wasn't meant to be a happy ending of good beats evil and the wheels are broken. The series is about the horrors of war and the corrupting nature of power.

Thanks for the link. Interview was interesting.

I am sure some people will get butt hurt over this, but I thought this was pretty funny.

Jamie Lannister grew back his right hand baby!!!

Bleeding burnt orange and chicago maroon

Is it me, or could that be his golden hand?

If you're not sure if my comment warrants a "/s", it probably does.

IMO looks pretty real

Bleeding burnt orange and chicago maroon

So i rewatched the episode as well as the writer / directors / etc take on it, and I understand it from their perspective a lot more now.

Unlike some on this thread, I don't dislike how they made Dany the mad-eye queen (or rather, how she got there) - I think that was understandable and inevitable. Jamie going back to Cersei makes somewhat sense, but I wish they could've given them a better death than just crushed under ruble.

Ultimately this season is disappointing / will disappoint, but I still enjoy it and the entire series nonetheless.

Anyone else see this? From a 2017 Simpsons episode. Matt Groening the 3 eyed raven.

Yeah, not totally out of the blue though. Bran had this vision in season 4, in 2014...Simpsons had a 50/50 chance at guessing the correct outcome

Now finish up them taters; I'm gonna go fondle my sweaters.

After rewatching the episode, and viewing some parts of older seasons, I really don't find Dany's turn to be completely by surprise.

In fact, I feel like it might not even be a turn at all. She isn't becoming a Mad Queen, she is actually just being what she was all along. It is we the viewer that built an image we assumed would be different.

Edit: after I drop the kids off at school I am going to elaborate on this

I agree with this take even before you elaborate. People were ignoring all the signs/foreshadowing that Dany was indeed going to go all Mad Queen by the end.

She absolutely has not been "all along" someone who would slaughter thousands of innocent people.

All along in the tv show maybe. But in reality... We don't know that she isn't. She is still in Slaver's Bay in the books. Martin hasn't written her exit from there yet. Could be she decided to lay waste to Meereen after those Harpy fucks try to assassinate her. She certainly hasn't had a problem killing people so not a stretch that she can justify it to herself. I think Slaver's Bay in the books ultimately will teach her that being a savior isn't always welcomed while being a conqueror gets the job done quickly and lets you rebuild.

That's a very different thing than saying she has always been the person who torched thousands of innocent people. Even the shitty writing and progression of the show isn't trying to imply that. They broke her with so many people close to her dying, losing Jon as a lover, feeling isolated. To say this is who she has been all show is insulting to narrative character building.

What innocent people? Everyone in the capital lived under Baratheon rule. They didn't fight back against Robert once he was king, she had to leave get home to survive and everyone let it happen. I can see how she'd think they aren't innocent for accepting the Bratheons.

Yes in reality this is the realm varys talked about that doesnt give a shit who is on the throne. So they are innocent to the wider audience.


.

.

Dany has pretty much acted like a Khaleesi from the beginning. Anyone who hasn't bent the knee or celebrated her as "rightful heir to the Seven Kingdoms, rightful ruler of the Andals and the First Men, Khaleesi of the great grass sea, the mother of dragons, the unburnt, the breaker of chains" has felt her wrath. They either got the sword (Dothraki, Unsullied, Stormcrows/Second Sons) or they got the fire (ALL the dragons once upon a time). She built her armies and took her time to get what she wanted. She killed her brother (thru Drogo), the Khals, the slavers, the leaders of houses who didn't bend the knee, the white walkers (no need in having the Iron Throne if you're going to be a zombie queen), and King's Landing. Sort of poetic justice since the people there supported Robert Baratheon in overthrowing her father.

Seriously, she's lead to the death of more people than anyone else in the show. Yet, for some reason, there are a lot of pissed off people who think that the heel turn is unexpected? She's just been the hot young heel who has bided her time until she had the resources to take the throne.

All the "good guys" (Tyrion, Jon, Davos) thought it was over when they rang the bells. But back in S2E9 "Blackwater", Davos told his son when the bells started ringing that nothing good happens when you hear those bells. Guess what? He was right then and he was right now. Once Grey Worm threw his spear and killed the Lannisterman, the rout was on and death had come to King's Landing. It was all planned, as evidenced by Grey Worm staring at Jon when he tried to stop the Northmen from joining the battle and when Dany told Jon that if she couldn't rule by love in Westeros, it would be by fear. "So fear it is."

It was all planned.

It was not. The showrunners have said she was triggered by looking at the Red Keep when the bells rang and that's when it snapped.

Then they wasted 6+ seasons of development for one of the main characters of the show. Everything prior to this has pointed exactly to what happened at King's Landing.

...I'm saying she didn't plan the genocide ahead of time.

Yeah I doubt it was planned ahead of time but she has been leaning towards burning down Kings Landing to end the war for a couple seasons now but has been restrained by her advisers.

But yes, it did seem to be a spur of the moment thing that she just snapped.

I think GRRM planned this ending all along but the fast pace and skipping over some many plot points to get here has rightfully left a lot of people pissed.

From the Rotten Tomatoes episode description (currently the worst ranked episode of the series).

Critics Consensus: Death, destruction, and the deterioration of Daenerys' sanity make "The Bells" an episode for the ages; but too much plot in too little time muddles the story and may leave some viewers feeling its conclusions are unearned.

As Chris keeps saying, "leaning towards burning down Kings Landing to end the war" is far different from what happened. D&D didn't even bother to put Dany in the position of having to decide about winning the war versus sacrificing innocent lives. The war was already won and instead of going after Cersei, whom Dany has vocalized quite a bit of animosity toward, and ensuring the brutal death of an enemy, which Dany has shown a penchant for enjoying over the course of the show, Dany apparently decided to spend hours torching innocents in the city streets. Nothing that had occurred in the show up to that point explains why she suddenly became a genocidal maniac other than "well ya should have seen it coming because she's a Targaryan," which is pretty damn weak in my opinion.

Joffrey, Cersei, Ilyn Payne, the Hound, Jeff Jagodzinski, Paul Johnson, Pat Narduzzi.

Fair enough. I agree the lazy writing has been the downfall of the entire season.

Correct, according to the showrunners, Daenerys' decision was spur of the moment.

"But in the episode's behind-the-scenes featurette, Benioff and Weiss reveal that her decision was even more abrupt than it seems. They say Dany spontaneously decided to destroy the city when she saw the Red Keep, the King's Landing castle built by the Targaryens.

"I don't think she decided ahead of time that she was going to do what she did," Weiss says. "And then she sees the Red Keep, which is, to her, the home that her family built when they first came over to this country 300 years ago. It's in that moment, on the walls of King's Landing, when she's looking at that symbol of everything that was taken from her, when she makes the decision to make this personal."

Do people watch the little behind the scenes thing after the episode? Cause I feel like those answer a lot of the things we debate about on here.

"When she arrives in King's Landing, she truly believes the people will take up arms against Cersei and welcome her as the rightful heir. They don't. They surrender, but they aren't glad to see her, and they don't fight for her. Maybe her sudden decision to "make it personal" isn't because Jon rejected her or because the North is about to. Maybe it's because she's spent all this time fighting for people she thought should love her, and when she realizes they never will, she's willing to let their world burn to punish them."

Daenerys decision

Now finish up them taters; I'm gonna go fondle my sweaters.

Maybe it's because she's spent all this time fighting for people she thought should love her, and when she realizes they never will, she's willing to let their world burn to punish them.

If that's what they were going for, they really did a pathetic job conveying that thought process on the screen. Dany has liberated enough cities throughout the series that she knows the common people of a city like King's Landing are living in poverty and fear. It's not as if the people of King's Landing embraced the rulers whom Dany saw as her enemies, especially considering none of them really cared about the people. Tyrion outright said as much to Cersei in episode 4- "you hate the people and they hate you". Dany spoke about breaking the wheel, raising up the downtrodden and giving them hope for most of the series, and she's essentially in the same situation again- with her lifelong goal of sitting on the iron throne accomplished nonetheless. Yet Dany completely ignores ensuring the demise of Cersei, whom personally ordered Missandei to be executed, in favor of burning every last commoner in the streets? Sorry but based on what they showed us on the screen, that explanation is laughable.

Joffrey, Cersei, Ilyn Payne, the Hound, Jeff Jagodzinski, Paul Johnson, Pat Narduzzi.

That part was speculation from the article, not straight from the writers

Now finish up them taters; I'm gonna go fondle my sweaters.

Then she's exactly like a lot of other characters whose arcs have been completely destroyed by the writing of the show this season. Jaime, the NK, Bran, Tyrion, all have been non factors and never amounted to anything that they were building towards.

I'm not going to disagree with this.

You must not realize that this show is not and has not been about perfect character arcs that tie things neatly up into a package with a bow on top. It explores the inability to change or be redeemed

Recruit Prosim

And here I thought two episodes ago we had, "Sansa was able to change because of the traumas she endured" and this episode had, "Arya was able to change and let go of revenge because of the Hound."

Joffrey, Cersei, Ilyn Payne, the Hound, Jeff Jagodzinski, Paul Johnson, Pat Narduzzi.

Whatever best fits their need to justify it to themselves in the moment.

Thanks for the pro tip about what the show is. It used to be similar to the books with good character development and intricate storylines that make sense. Now its just D&D admitting to predetermining Ayra kill the night king for no real reason, having Jaime give up Cersei for the betterment of others only to "lol jk" that in one episode, and have 7.5 seasons of existential threat from zombies to wipe them out with only half of the armies destroyed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KoScPK00P0

This video does more justice than I could ever articulate.

I mean the whole Jaime thing kinda makes sense if you look at it. He's an addict and is addicted to Cersei. Just like in real life lots of addicts relapse back into their old habits. The only thing that really left me scratching my head, even with suspension of disbelief, was Arya killing the Night King.

If it was planned and known about behind Jon's back I would like that more. The snap is weird and I'm not a fan. Also the fact that this show used to present moral dilemmas.
I don't like that the scorpions that were so fdevastating one episode ago are now sitting ducks with an ever so minor tweaks to engagement tactics from Dany. More compelling to me would be massive struggle in battle, and her seeing the only way to win is to torch the city. I don't mind her going mad, but shouldn't there be better plausibilty as to why?
But it doesn't really matter what I like. Just feels they're going against the grain of style from the first 6 seasons.

My only solace is how ruthlessly r/freefolk points out how terrible this season has been. Particularly the memes making fun of the dumb shit D&D say after episodes between mispronouncing the names of the characters in the show.

yeah... this one got me

How would people feel if Dany said she lost control of Drogon and she was just along for the ride?

-I don't think this is actually what happens.

Recruit Prosim

After Drogon's little rumspringa a few seasons ago he's practically been better behaved than a seeing eye dog. That would be...... bad. Even lazier writing IMO

Edit: Meant as a reply to tjbhokie

Here lies It's a Stroman Jersey I Swear, surpassed in life by no one because he intercepted it.

So I was talking to my brother about this yesterday and there was actually a believable way to pull this off in the timeframe that would have almost made you feel sympathetic towards dany the D&D just "blew their load to early"

episode 4, have Euron's ambush happen (even though it was stupid AF) maybe one of the dragons gets grazed and you can see that the ballista actually can mess a dragon up (DONT KILL VISERION HERE!). Missandei still gets captured whatever... episode 5, start with the standoff where basically Dany says hey give me Missandei and we can all walk away from this, head gets lopped off Dany gets pissed and does what she does at the start of the episode. The battle ensues yadda yadda yadda, the iron fleet is destroyed, all the ballista destroyed (REMEMBER SHE HAS 2 DRAGONS AT THIS POINT!)

The bells are rung issuing surrender by Lannister forces, everyone drops their guard because the Lannisters seemingly surrendered. Then out of nowhere (maybe a church or something) a few ballista shoot and kill viserion, sending dany over the edge.

in 1 episode she loses missanei and a dragon-child and Cersei is shown hiding weapons among the people which shes totally not above. This would give an excuse to dany to burn all of the people and demolish the city. Then on foot we have jon watching the city get pillaged and destroyed. IMO if cersei did that and then dany burned the city it would have been a much more compelling episode because you could almost sympathize and understand danys actions. Now it just feels like she went off her rocker

Taylor, looking desperately throws it deep..HAS A MAN OPEN DANNY COALE WITH A CATCH ALL THE WAY DOWN TO THE FIVE!!!!....hes still open

I saw something similar on reddit. Their take was to have several ballistas that were camoflauged on the tops of buildings, with Euron on one of them. Once all the visible ballistas are destroyed, and Dany/Jon are perched watching the battle, when Euron takes out Viseryon and Jon falls. Dany goes nuts, hunting the remaining camoflauged ballistas, essentially destroying the city.

If you're not sure if my comment warrants a "/s", it probably does.

Rhaegal was the dragon Euron took down with impossible shots from his fleet.

Viserion was killed by the Night King

agree this concept would make a ton more sense.

(rhaegal)

"Why gobble gobble chumps asks such good questions, I will never know." - TheFifthFuller

Good catch sorry I'm attempting to multi-task right now and that shit never works out

Taylor, looking desperately throws it deep..HAS A MAN OPEN DANNY COALE WITH A CATCH ALL THE WAY DOWN TO THE FIVE!!!!....hes still open

That would have been good, if that is what they wanted to portray.

Now finish up them taters; I'm gonna go fondle my sweaters.

Since we know we are out of GRMM source material, this has become a Choose Your Own Adventure Story and nobody likes anyone else's choices.

Dani is going to die like Joffrey.

This is going to be great for the ACC.

I heard this, but it didn't register when first watching the episode....Varys was trying to poison Daenerys

Varys: "Nothing?"

Girl: "She won't eat."

Varys: "We'll try again at supper."

Girl: "I think they're watching me."

Varys: "Who?"

Girl: "Her soldiers."

Varys: "Of course they are. That's their job. What have I told you, Martha?"

Girl: "The bigger the risk, the bigger the reward."

Varys: "Go on. They'll be missing you in the kitchen."

Now finish up them taters; I'm gonna go fondle my sweaters.

He was trying to poison Cersei. That girl worked in the kitchens in the red keep.

If you're not sure if my comment warrants a "/s", it probably does.

almost got me.. then I read your sig again.

There was a shot of the girl trying to get into the Red Keep when they shut the doors. She was right at the front of the pack when the doors shut. (Most people were probably focused on Jaime trying to get the guards' attention with his golden hand.) That tells me that she was actually working in the Red Keep's kitchens, which means it was Cersei she was trying to poison.

Edit: But now that I think about it, it's not likely she took a boat to Dragonstone and back just to report that. Oh, well, it was a nice thought.

If you're not sure if my comment warrants a "/s", it probably does.

Except Varys and Martha, the girl he was discussing this with, were at Dragonstone with Daenerys, right?

I don't think the little girl hopped on a boat, traveled across Blackwater Bay, snuck into King's Landing, snuck to the Red Keep, failed; got out of King's Landing, traveled back across Blackwater Bay to Dragonstone to tell Varys she failed, and he said, good try, go back across Blackwater Bay, sneak back into King's Landing and the Red Keep, and try again at dinner time.

edit: Now I remember the shot you're referencing, I think that came well after this exchange with Varys, right?

edit #2: Looks like you edited yours while I was typing my response, looks like we're on the same page

Now finish up them taters; I'm gonna go fondle my sweaters.

What? No. Varys was at Dragonstone. As demonstrated by him being roasted. By a dragon. Next to some stones.

I'm actually enjoying this season I knew it would be slightly rushed but atleast they aren't dragging it on way to long like the walking dead etc

That said I've always hated or atleast despised Dany as a character. She's always been so arrogant and assuming that she's the bee's knees when in my opinion she's always had advisors keeping her on the straight track when she's strayed from the path. I see her twist similar to how Anakin went from being the chosen one to the true evil.

Directions from Blacksburg to whoville, go north till you smell it then go east until you step in it

I think in comparison to the first 6 it absolutely has been that bad.

Just think. These are the same guys who are being brought in to fix all the things with SW now that Disney has done away with source material.

Also Benioff wrote X-Men Origins: Wolverine, which unless I'm forgetting an absolutely tragedy, is by far the worst X-Men movie.

Which, quite frankly, I wanted to give them the benefit of the doubt. That was a long time ago and like any other professional, growth is not uncommon within your career path/craft, but these last two seasons really have had substantially lower quality writing. They were able to get away with it for the vast majority of the audience because season 7 had so many long awaited "payoff" moments. We got to see a lot of main characters meet for the first time, the dragons in action, some really cool moments between the guys who go north of the wall, but the entire "catch a wight" plot is probably one of the best examples of this ends-based, reverse engineering type writing they are doing. It doesn't take long to see how circular the logic involved in that plot is... They need a wight to show Cersei that the Night King is a real threat, but to get the wight they have to go North of the Wall, but for the dead to get past the wall and actually be a real threat to Westoros they needed an undead dragon, well to get an undead dragon we need Dany to go north of the wall to rescue Jon, well we sent them past the wall to get a wight to show Cersei that the Night King is a real threat so that she will send her armies to help fight the dead, the same dead who need the undead dragon to even get past the wall in the first place...

After season 7 there was still enough we didn't know about the Night King for us to not get too caught up in that circle. Maybe the Night King didn't need the dragon, maybe he was always going to figure out a way somehow, but now that we don't know anything else about the Night King and he's been dealt with, it's clear how circular that situation was.

Yeah people hating on season 8 like I was hating on season 7. My friends got real annoyed w me when I pointed these things out. #vindicated?

Some of my warning signals were firing off at times during S7. I remember pointing out how silly the whole "capture a wight" plan was, and how that was the also the only way the Night King could get a dragon, wondering where the WW got giant ass chains from, etc. But all those things I was willing to wait and see, especially back then thinking we would learn more about the NK and his mythology, powers, and motivations. However, overall I did fall prey to exactly what I was referencing in the above comment I made. I was so excited to see the Dragons in action, character first meetings/reunions, held my breath when I wasn't sure if Jaime was going to be okay after he charged the dragon, lost my shit (in a good way) when Dany/Jon finally happened, etc. I was very caught up in the "payoff" moments that season gave us and so excited about the Night King and how the Azor Ahai prophecy would play into his defeat that I let myself not see the warning signs in the distinct change in writing style and quality as clearly as I should have.

Yeah I didn't hate it hate it, but there was a noticeable uptick in pandering in my opinion. Absolutely haaated the capture a wight scheme and annoyed only one important character died. I didn't nitpick it to death, but would say things like, "if this was season 5, three of them mother fuckers ain't coming back"

Starting to accept season 8 for what it is. I think people are overreacting. But the shows has diverged from what made it really unique

I defended the show as just being different from the books but still good unitl the whole Missandei and Greyworm romance started and then they lost me. The dude has a crotch of a Ken doll.

15 Straight

Now finish up them taters; I'm gonna go fondle my sweaters.

I agree. Missandei was also like 8 years old in the book

S7 was the start of the "we need to finish this story" thing. I was super annoyed with it too. But I knew what to expect this year. I knew we were punting on full character development. That's okay, when this series started nobody thought the showrunners could do the source material justice. We were just treated with 5+ seasons of exceeded expectations and the last two seasons as probably what should have been expected at the beginning.

Hot take: I really liked X Men Origins

There are apparently a lot of entitled people out there

In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.

"You didn't write well enough write it again cause we deserve it!" - 820,000 people that have signed that

(add if applicable) /s

Give me a break. There's a massive difference between people taking 10 seconds to semi-formalize a complaint and actually feeling entitled to a different final season. The vast majority of people know that HBO isn't going to redo the final season. It's no more entitled than the posts on TKP that VT should be recruiting top 10 classes and winning the Coastal annually.

Joffrey, Cersei, Ilyn Payne, the Hound, Jeff Jagodzinski, Paul Johnson, Pat Narduzzi.

That wasn't a serious comment.

(add if applicable) /s

Why you beating up heuplek?

Alum07 was the one calling people entitled.

My response was to the thread and heuplek seemed to echo the "entitled" sentiment. Honestly I considered if it was supposed to be /s but it didn't convey that way to me.

Joffrey, Cersei, Ilyn Payne, the Hound, Jeff Jagodzinski, Paul Johnson, Pat Narduzzi.

I'm offering up my thoughts and prayers that somebody will remake Seasons 7 and 8.

If you're not sure if my comment warrants a "/s", it probably does.

If you're not sure if my comment warrants a "/s", it probably does.

The same look I gave Mrs. JiA last night.

DEEA4-CC6-06-BF-4-E9-B-A44-A-C91-FD159-DBB0

Tyrod did it Mikey, Tyrod did it!!

did you eat a cucumber without slicing it first?

"Why gobble gobble chumps asks such good questions, I will never know." - TheFifthFuller

You have to be super careful about that!

Excuse the language.

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Tyrod did it Mikey, Tyrod did it!!

People need to start looking on the bright side here. The TV show sucking this season means they haven't spoiled the books.

Hey, just the humans winning instead of the zombies made me happy. When I was a kid the good guys always won, but you just never know these days. Think that earlier quote applies here (something to the effect that "If you think this is going to turn out well, you just haven't been paying attention"). GoT has always been a perverse production.

I just don't see what other ending besides John vs Dani would make sense

Recruit Prosim

Prior to this season, I was holding out for Dany burning the throne itself, ending the monarchy, and Westeros establishing a parliamentary republic with seven semi-autonomous states.

True executive power drives from the masses, not some farcical metal chair.

If you're not sure if my comment warrants a "/s", it probably does.

.....and scene?

Recruit Prosim

This aged well.

Sure but the how is the exciting part. This is like the greatest misdirected teaser trailer ever.

Not sure if 100% accurate but it's been rumored to be the first spinoff from GOT. HBO needs to announce something big or they'll see a huge spike in cancellations. Not enough good content to keep people interested.

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Tyrod did it Mikey, Tyrod did it!!

They have me until I finish Chernoby, possibly watchmen.

I've got to watch True Detective and finish Chernobyl and I'm out for a while. Probably sign back for Big Little Lies.

Poll time
Bigger let down of lack in back story or explanation of who they were. Leader snoke from star wars or the night king?

Directions from Blacksburg to whoville, go north till you smell it then go east until you step in it

Easily the night king. Smoke was in a total of three hours of movie time. NK was in eight seasons spanning like 70 hours

Here lies It's a Stroman Jersey I Swear, surpassed in life by no one because he intercepted it.

I'd have to go with Snoke. I'm still not even sure what the point of him existing was... The Night King was an existential threat to the realm that everyone had to gather together to defeat. Now, should more than half the army die, yes. Were some of the decisions for cinematic options questionable, yes. But the whole point of the show is that people are the worst offenders.

Snoke was just your typical Disney big bad just to be bad while pretending to be more complicated.

Okay, Chris was right. How do you let Bran be fucking king if he's only in 50% of the episodes, we completely skip over the conversation he had with Tyrion. I understand the ending is GRRM and I'm fine with that ending if they logically explain it. Bran this season, sat under a tree and warged into ravens while half of Dany's army gets killed, doesn't come up again until John tells Sansa and Arya, then wheels his happy ass to Kings Landing and is king. THE MOST POWERFUL PERSON IN THE SERIES; it makes sense for him to be king, but they couldn't have underplayed his importance any more.

(add if applicable) /s

Bran this season, sat under a tree and warged into ravens while half of Dany's army gets killed...

Point of Information: If he'd done anything to tilt the battle at Winterfell towards the human side, then the Night King may not have come in after him, and that was the whole point, now, wasn't it?

If you're not sure if my comment warrants a "/s", it probably does.

We can make assumptions that Bran controlled every aspect of the series and walked wheeled himself to the throne. We can say that he laid everyone in place for Danny's dragon to be killed, for Mel to get her head cut off, for Danny to have more reason to blow down the city. The problem here is that they're all assumptions because his character was terribly developed.

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What did Bran say to Littlefinger before Sansa and Arya executed him?

Chaos is a ladder.

At the time it just seemed like he was calling Littlefinger out, giving him a little poke... "hey, I know what you've been up to"

But since that point, it sure seems like Bran created quite a bit of chaos with his limited actions and words.

Chaos that ends up with him climbing up to the throne.

My favorite part from last nights episode was Tyrion making sure Cersei was dead. He smashed her face in with that brick so good.

Tyrod did it Mikey, Tyrod did it!!

I didn't take it that way. Thought he was just smashing in frustration. Not on Cersei.

I left off the /s

Tyrod did it Mikey, Tyrod did it!!

No no, she was just mostly dead, Tyrion went there to fulfill the prophecy my killing her so she is dead dead.

"He moved."
"That's because my axe is embedded in his nervous system!"