Pac-12 Opt-Out

Edit: I added the opt-out notice above with original post below.

There was a thread on this a week-or-so ago, but the reporting from ESPN on a looming Pac-12 opt-out is much more substantial.

https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/29578950/pac-12-player-...

A group of Pac-12 football players from multiple schools is threatening to opt out of both preseason camps and games until its negotiations with the league regarding concerns about racial injustice, their safety during the coronavirus pandemic and other demands are completed.

A text message obtained by ESPN says the group's goal is to "obtain a written contract with the Pac- 12 that legally ensures we are offered the following protections and benefits."

The group's list of demands, according to the text message, includes safe play amid the pandemic, fighting racial injustice, securing economic rights and fair compensation, protecting all sports and obtaining long-term health insurance.

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Comments

Whatever lawyers are helping with this are on the verge of making a lot of money.

Yes,that's the Hokie Bird riding a camel. Why'd you ask?

hell ya, this is the time to do it if you're an athlete

Leave it to the west coast to do this *throws road flare into ammunition room*

Amateur superstar and idiot extraordinaire.

https://www.espn.com/college-sports/story/_/id/29565299/ncaa-allow-unifo...

he new rule will permit one patch on the front of a player's uniform and one on the back. On the front, the patch must not exceed 2ΒΌ inches and may be used as a "commemorative/memorial patch (names, mascots, nicknames, logos and marks) intended to celebrate or memorialize people, events or other causes."

Players can also replace their last names on the backs of their jerseys to honor a cause they support.

"The second location is on the back of the uniform where the player name is traditionally located and, as authorized by the school or conference, will allow names/words intended to celebrate or memorialize people, events or other causes," the NCAA announced. "The names or words may vary by team member.

In connection to what PAC12 athletes want I wonder what we will see allowed in other four conferences related to this new NCAA rule.

Wet stuff on the red stuff.

Join us in the Key Players Club

The XFL was just ahead of it's time

If this happen, then like the NFL, my college football fandom will plummet to nil.

β€œBut do kind of enjoy reading this thread, it's really nice because Auburn can't swoop in and take our juicy ripe tomatoes.” ~ lewiswb

Could you expand on why?

Wet stuff on the red stuff.

Join us in the Key Players Club

I'd also like an expanded take. I feel like this is the perfect opportunity for players to rally for just compensation, which given the huge amounts of money involved in college football today I think it's totally justified And also make a stand for social change that's important. Given the uncertainty of the season at this point anyway, why not see what sticks?

I'm assuming this has to do with the fact that they are student athletes, and education and academics should come first, and pop this athletic bubble.

Just a wild guess.

TKPhi Damn Proud
BSME 2009

Please, do tell why. People using their leverage to get better working conditions is a tale as old as time.

People overestimating their leverage and killing the goose that laid the golden egg is roughly as old a tale...

I'd like some examples of this actually.

Joffrey, Cersei, Ilyn Payne, the Hound, Jeff Jagodzinski, Paul Johnson, Pat Narduzzi.

History is full of both negotiation, and overplaying one's hand.

I don't think this particular set of demands is feasible but I can't say I understand the desire to stan for coaches, administrators, and middle men with multi-million dollar salaries over the student-athletes. I actually think the value of a scholarship might be somewhat under appreciated while also recognizing that the NCAA system is deeply corrupt and broken.

Joffrey, Cersei, Ilyn Payne, the Hound, Jeff Jagodzinski, Paul Johnson, Pat Narduzzi.

I mean what does an assistant coach make versus the value of a scholarship? How many elite coaches are there versus elite D-ends? What if neither is elite. Bottom line, college coaching salaries inflated to draw in the most skilled coaches. If we take the value of a player too far, I would rather see a minor league system. Of course every one of those has failed because fans need emotional attachment to a team to waste tons of time and money to watch and discuss.

Edit: with your edit we probably aren't far off in thinking. I am not rigid and think the athletes could be treated better while still maintaining student athlete status, but honestly I get a real bad personal reaction when I see individual players holding the sport hostage when 3/4 will be forgotten in a few years, which doesn't make them unimportant but they are overlaying the hand.

"If you don't have time to do it right, when will you have time to do it over?"

For those who are asking about my position, I cannot give an answer that will not violate the guideline and angering/offending some posters here, so that's my answer.

β€œBut do kind of enjoy reading this thread, it's really nice because Auburn can't swoop in and take our juicy ripe tomatoes.” ~ lewiswb

Then why say anything in the first place? Your original comment was unprompted

Now we are just left assuming what you meant. It's not a good look for you either way

This.

IDGAF.

β€œBut do kind of enjoy reading this thread, it's really nice because Auburn can't swoop in and take our juicy ripe tomatoes.” ~ lewiswb

Then why be concerned w guidelines? Just saying.

To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
@BuryHokie #ThanksFrank

Seems like the NCAA is damned if they do and damned if they don't. If you don't play the season most athletic departments will fold. If they do play I think the position that players are justly compensated for the risks they take is going to be hard to defend which could also bring down the ncaa.

I haven't heard a good plan for paying players. Has anybody heard of one that details out how payments are made and how much and how parity is reached across schools? For social injustice, will that extend to political positions outside of black lives matter? Who approves messages?
Safe play and long term healthcare are interesting, I just don't know how you afford it unless you want to severely restrict the number of teams playing.

Ultimately I don't think there's a season this year but I wish there were some serious conversations about this stuff rather than thoughts from people that haven't really thought about how it works or how it changes things.

how parity is reached across schools

what would you call what there currently is in college football?

They are paid (scholarship), I'm assuming that some just dont feel like its enough enough compensation. The average annual tuition for the 2019-2020 year ranged from ~22k to ~50k annually. For the sake of argument, lets say the average tuition across the board is $35k annually, and the average hours worked per year is 1920. That comes out to an hourly rate of $18.23 and hour, before taxes, etc. Included in those benefits is medical care.

Now, I can certainly see an argument where their pay is not sufficient when considering the revenue generated by their specific sport. However, their sport (football) makes up a very significant amount of revenue generated by each athletic department that goes back in to supporting the non-revenue sports.

If they want some form of revenue sharing, they need to start with dismantling Title IX requirements, and I think that is a very, very bad idea. To get what they want in terms of revenue sharing they need to redo / rethink a lot of systemic issues and dependencies.

To be frank, I think they'll have an easier time creating a professional minor league for the NFL, and if history is any indicator that will not work out well for them either.

The schools don't have to pay the players directly, just keep the scholarships, and allow them to be paid by 3rd parties.

I would call that bluff quickly. Put out a press release that says the conference supports any player opting out for safety or other reason.

"If you don't have time to do it right, when will you have time to do it over?"

I stand by this statement after reading the demands. There are things that the NCAA needs to work on but I would call the bluff. I have long said that the school name is exponentially more important in terms of revenue and yet the players keep insinuating that it is their value bringing the fans. Squash the power play then move onto some of the very good points that are in the letter. Do not present it as a negotiation. The players are free to walk at any time.

"If you don't have time to do it right, when will you have time to do it over?"

I guess this is a good thing but if these players are successful you'll see the end of college football. I just think the liability will become too great for universities to continue football programs, especially the smaller schools.

I think this might bring about the end of college football *as we know it*, which is a good thing if it brings about a better system where players are treated more fairly.

Define "treated more fairly"?

you heard about iowa yet?

50% of revenue to players, 2% to social justice initiatives, 6 year guaranteed scholarships, 6 years of medical insurance AFTER eligibility expires, and NIL rights? While demanding that all sports remain fully funded?

I mean... I completely agree that salaries and facilities have gone way overboard in the revenue sports and that money would be better spent supporting student athletes but these demands are beyond unrealistic. It would only take a few minutes of crunching the numbers for this to fall apart.

Joffrey, Cersei, Ilyn Payne, the Hound, Jeff Jagodzinski, Paul Johnson, Pat Narduzzi.

Welp, sports was fun while it lasted.

There are wolves and there are sheep, I am the sheep dog

If they actually go through with this I think every other conference will respond with some middle ground once the conference ADs and players see the Pac-12 implode. What we're looking at is mutually assured destruction otherwise, and the whole college football empire will come crashing down hard.

Where media, lawyers, and politicians converge, generally the unattended consequences is where we end up.

I thought this was an interesting point, about non-revenue sports actually as a net positive for universities before all the seemingly extravagant expenses. (I can't wait until someone crunches all the numbers.)

I think then you would see inflation in the "student athletic fees?" Now instead of football and basketball funding non revenue, you're increasing the cost of education for everyone on campus which is already growing at a rate much higher then inflation.

Additionally, in the real world of professions that have work hazards to them, I.e construction, you do everything you can to eliminate risk and liability. If you introduce additional insurance and liability to football, it will crush any profits. You'd be splitting $0 with the athletes.

Also, the current health care law allows for "minor" children to be on their parents insurance until age 26. Why would universities take on this responsibility?

Also, the current health care law allows for "minor" children to be on their parents insurance until age 26. Why would universities take on this responsibility?

This assumes their parents have health insurance.

It's a fairly safe assumption

It's Time to go to Work

Maybe pre-covid

The athletic ran the numbers recently. Take a sport like Baseball, that has 30-some players, only 11(?) scholarships. That's 20ish players paying full tuition.

Twitter me

For anyone who watched the ICC Seasons of Last Chance U they said the quiet part out loud there too.

Part of the reason a nowhere Community College in small town Kansas was trying to get more into football was dozens and dozens of non scholarship players who would all be writing tuition checks to the school.

All of this is turning me off to sports. I've already quit baseball football and basketball. I'm speaking strictly pro here.

"Hey Bud, you wont have to hold the opponent to 17 points anymore."

why?

Because shut up and dribble

"That kid you're talking to right there, I think he played his nuts off! And you can quote me on that shit!" -Bud Foster

I can't fathom a non-political answer here. There's no ground to stand on if your gripe is player compensation.

Joffrey, Cersei, Ilyn Payne, the Hound, Jeff Jagodzinski, Paul Johnson, Pat Narduzzi.

wasn't really anticipating an answer to be honest

generally speaking, what kills me about college football, and college athletics generally, is that people will claim to love these kids/young adults when they suit up and make plays (ie this is home, #hokienation, etc) but the second these young people ask for change or suggest something to make you mildly uncomfortable it's "oh hell nah i'm out"

Or there could be more complicated thoughts on the matter. Like recognizing that the money most people think is available actually isn't. Or, like thinking the kids are not forced into the arrangement they find themselves in. I am all for increased insurance and stipends but there aren't millions to be thrown around or else the entire collegiate sports makeup falls apart.

"If you don't have time to do it right, when will you have time to do it over?"

there aren't millions to be thrown around or else the entire collegiate sports makeup falls apart.

One could make the argument that instead of paying for ridiculously nice weight rooms and locker rooms (that are nicer than any pro sports facilities), schools could use that revenue to (directly) pay players.

Twitter me

Agreed but as long as recruiting is a beauty contest, money will be wasted to make an impression. Non revenue sports wil be what falls apart first. Not that there probably isn't some waste there as well but they are essentially destined to not be self sustainable.

"If you don't have time to do it right, when will you have time to do it over?"

In this case the poster explicitly stated

I'm speaking strictly pro here.

So that rules out essentially all of the things you discussed.

Joffrey, Cersei, Ilyn Payne, the Hound, Jeff Jagodzinski, Paul Johnson, Pat Narduzzi.

Yes and many of the college football fans have given up on pro sports due to the me first attitude. I have said there is plenty that college can work on, but hopefully the name on the front of the jersey remains the priority.

"If you don't have time to do it right, when will you have time to do it over?"

Because "me first" players didn't exist in the pros until the last few years?

Also interesting how college fans didn't seem to complain this much when Johnny "Money" Manziel came around in 2012.

Wonder why.

Joffrey, Cersei, Ilyn Payne, the Hound, Jeff Jagodzinski, Paul Johnson, Pat Narduzzi.

I personally can separate pro and collegiate and enjoy both. I do despise the ten second trademarked dance for make a tackle after a four yard gain on 3rd and 3. But I respect that they are in a business and it is what it is. We don't have to let college sports become such a business. I mean the worst anybody can say is colleges overpay on facility quality for the players. It isn't like some owner is pocketing money off their likeness. Colleges cant even compete without charitable donations on top of the ridiculous revenues.

Johnny was a craze because he was the kryptonite for Bama but I think there was as much hate following as love following.

"If you don't have time to do it right, when will you have time to do it over?"

Ditto.

Off the cuff, I'd say the 50% revenue split is way too high. NFL and the NBA don't even get that and they are superior products. The stuff about health insurance and longer scholarships are right on in my opinion. These kids can face serious injury, I'd think that both would be totally doable and something that the players have earned.

I would think that maybe like a 80-20% split plus the NIL rights and scholarships for the players would be a pretty good deal all the way around. The AD will still have enough money to float the rest of the AD, salaries will probably come back into line with what they should be, and the players are paid to an appropriate level.

Some requests are on the right track but there's too much nonsense mixed in.

It's Time to go to Work

Who could have possibly predicted that one arm of the school begging for donations to pay another arm and call that enough compensation wasnt gonna be sustainable long term?

Let's just go back to amateurs playing in college, and pros playing professional ball.

If they want to start a minor league, that's fine, too.

I like college football, but the ridiculous money involved is sucking the life out of it.

I absolutely support this. Maybe it's just the history and culture of blue collar coal mining that runs in my blood for generations (and believe me, there's so much history of miners rising up, banding together, using their leverage, fighting for a bigger piece of the pie, etc.) but when I see stuff like this, or the attempt for Northwestern's football players to form a union a couple years ago, it instantly has my support.

I found TKP after two rails from TOTS then walking back to my apartment and re-watching the 2012 Sugar Bowl. I woke up the next day with this username.

I find this really fascinating, the demands seem to range from no-brainer such as more clarity and better practices surrounding COVID, NIL Rights, reduced coach/administrator/facility spending to easily doable such as the racial injustice requests to probably not gonna work such as using the endowments for college sports, the 50% revenue request, I wonder how much is staking out positions with intention on negotiating vs what are hard lines. I also wonder if the 50% revenue was put on the table, you would have to count the value scholarships in that 50% right? I haven't done the math but that may make a huge difference, obviously on a per player basis basketball may bring in more than football, how does that change things? You also as was pointed out above, huge Title IX implications.

VT '17