The Kill Effect

A couple of games in, so we think we are benefiting from Coach Kills analysis?

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We are benefitting from having guys who are a legitimate running threat operating our offense. Keeping defenses honest opens up a lot of what we want to do.

King Alum of the House Hokie, the First of His Name, Khal of the Turkey Legs, The rightful Heir to the Big Board, the Unbanned, Breaker of Trolls and Father of Gritty

Facts. just read a free 247 article and we've improved something like 30 spots in rush yards per game rankings since HH started.

Yes. Basically if Kill said "let's start Hooker" then yeah the Kill effect is working.

I have no idea why my username is VT_Warthog.

Arkansas blew a 24-0 lead in the Belk Bowl.

Yep, without more inside info I find it difficult to assess how much of our newfound offensive/rushing success to using dual threat QB's like Hooker/QP and how much of it, if any, is Kill's off the field influence. I would align with your statement until we have more information or a bigger sample size to prove otherwise. It mostly just feels like our offense is more complete and versatile with a proper run threat.

our offense is more complete and versatile with a proper run threat

This is my suprised face:

Yeah, unless Kill specifically told Fuente that Hooker needs to be playing, I'm thinking this turnaround is more on the personnel change.

OL play looked much better on Saturday, which may be attributable to Kill. McClease (and the running game in general) has also looked better in the last couple games. Not sure if this one is more a product of HH and QP, or Kill. Regardless, the team looks better with more/better coaching and a more dynamic QB.

I just posted over in the RB Depth thread this while you made this one. I'll paste it here too.

I thought Saturday was like watching a completely different group of athletes on the OLine. They just imposed their will with violence and force to make way for the ball carrier at times, especially in OT. I think this is due to the Kill Effect. No more of this passive blocking posture and bench pressing guys at contact. Jump up, find a man, and put his ass in the dirt! Kill!

We even got an offensive lineman downfield penalty that was later picked up. That is a clear indicator of a more aggressive blocking strategy. However, I think that may be more due to switching to a power-run game than an overall switch in blocking philosophy due to Kill's input. Hopefully, with HH and/or QP in at QB it becomes a permanent change. O-lineman are much more effective when you tell them to mash and turn them loose.

"Sooner or later, if man is ever to be worthy of his destiny, we must fill our heart with tolerance."
-Stan Lee

"Never half-ass two things. Whole-ass one thing."
-Ron Swanson

"11-0, bro"
-Hunter Carpenter (probably)

Yeah, I was going to say.... Its got to be a little easier to block when the defense isn't just pinning its ears back every play.

King Alum of the House Hokie, the First of His Name, Khal of the Turkey Legs, The rightful Heir to the Big Board, the Unbanned, Breaker of Trolls and Father of Gritty

Yep. The more aggressive O-line and power running game is obvious. We've been screaming all year long that the offense needs to stay on the field to give the defense breathers.

Now, if this can grow into a strategy that can give us long time consuming bruising drives, we might have the other defenses sucking wind by the 3rd quarter.

Overheard as Duke assistant coaches took elevator down from press box: β€œGuys, they stopped the run with a three-man front.” - David Teel Tweet 2018

Is there really anything to suggest Kill is the factor here other than the connection between our turnaround and his hiring? Like, how is Kill suddenly making our Oline better in a few weeks?

Sometimes all it takes is the right motivation. Or simplifying things so the head isn't tying up the feet. And sometimes it takes an outsider to come in and tell you how you're doing everything all wrong and tell you how to do it the correct way for the desired results.

Darrisaw posted this after the game - anyone know if a UNC player said it? Maybe that changed the attitude of the OL for this game.

Sounds like a very UNC thing to say. Also, you can own the middle. Jet sweeps go outside, bro.

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Warning: this post occasionally contains strong language (which may be unsuitable for children), unusual humor (which may be unsuitable for adults), and advanced mathematics (which may be unsuitable for liberal-arts majors)..

The real question is...did Kill come in and lay into CJF and Corny about the QB. We heard for so long nothing was being done in practice to have Willis lose his spot, but yet the results when it counts are drastically different. There's no way they couldn't see the difference in practice. This then concerns me when Braxton is eligible to play if we end the season on a high note and then throw a wrench into the QB room. Could it work out for the better, sure but it could also backfire.

Yeah, this worries me too.

If HH closes out the season strong, I have a hard time believing he wouldn't march right to the portal if Fuente declared an open QB competition next season.

If HH keeps progressing and this happens, I'll draw the door myself.

If you play it, they will win.

"How the ass pocket will be used, I do not know. Alls I know is, the ass pocket will be used." -The BoD

If HH keeps progressing and this happens, I'll draw the door myself.

For whom?

If you're not sure if my comment warrants a "/s", it probably does.

HH.

Fuente.

Maybe open it for HH, and push Fuente through it instead.

Just saying, we have options.

If you play it, they will win.

"How the ass pocket will be used, I do not know. Alls I know is, the ass pocket will be used." -The BoD

My 2019 Season Challenge: only comment with Star Wars memes.

If you see these characters, they represent specific people (as of Oct. 2):

Palpatine (Fuente) || Vader (Hooker) || Kylo Ren (QP4) || Lando (Deablo)

Imagine Hooker in Oklahoma's offense....

Outside it's night time, but inside it's LeDay

Do we have any indication what HH's injury is? He might not be available to close out the season strong.

"I liked you guys a lot better when everybody told you you were terrible." -Justin Fuente

leg went bendy in wrong direction

King Alum of the House Hokie, the First of His Name, Khal of the Turkey Legs, The rightful Heir to the Big Board, the Unbanned, Breaker of Trolls and Father of Gritty

Enough with the medical jargon. I'm just a simple AssPocket.

If you play it, they will win.

"How the ass pocket will be used, I do not know. Alls I know is, the ass pocket will be used." -The BoD

Bendy is not a medical term. I know I'm I am a doctor.

"Hey Bud, you wont have to hold the opponent to 17 points anymore."

By the looks of your grammar, you also might just be Henry the 8th.

You krak me up.

Judging by the replay, it's either really bad, or not bad at all. I was encouraged by word that he was stretching out after halftime, so I hope that ruled out any serious injury.

I noted HH came out from halftime with his helmet on. Then, I saw a coach (too far away for me to tell who) was talking to him and he turned around, looking dejected, and took his helmet off. It looked like he wanted to and expected to play. Seeing him hobbling, I think the coaches made the right call to sit him though. Hopefully, that means he's ready to go after the bye.

You can see Hooker at the end of the game in the youtube replay near Fuente and he is hobbling pretty good.

They showed him warming up throwing on the sidelines after halftime. The fact that he returned with his pads on was a good sign in my book.

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Yes, this plus the hobble at the end of the game hints at a knee sprain. They generally don't hurt all that bad until they sit. So if he was stretching it out and moving during half he'd have been fine its when you stopping using your knee as much that it stiffens and you start to hobble.

(add if applicable) /s

"If Fu goes to 2 acc champ games in 4 years, I will never criticize him again." - dcwilson

Fu acted like it was no big deal in the press conference today. Bye week comes at a good time.

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Just from seeing the replay, if I had to guess, I'd say hyper-extended knee. Of course, I could only stand to watch it one time.

Take the shortest route to the ball and arrive in bad humor.

That's funny. I was at the game, so I didn't have the video, but when I got home, I found a still photo and showed my wife, who's a nurse. She said, without a doubt, compound fracture to the lower leg. Thank goodness she's such a hypochondriac.

β€œYou got one guy going boom, one guy going whack, and one guy not getting in the endzone.”
― John Madden (describing VT's offense?)

WebMD says he has Lou Gehrig's or an ice cream headache.

50/50 chance really.

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This deserves more upvotes.

webMD says ice cream headaches are a leading symptom of Lou Gehrig's...

Sooooo... Suit up Quincy.

Or a big joker.

#Let's Go - Hokies

Look at a photo of his leg bent all curvy-like in the wrong direction and the only logical conclusion is that he's at least three-quarters shark and has no hard bones in his body, aside from teeth and jaws, only cartilage, if he's still walking after that. Surely this merits a new nickname. Go to it, TKP.

β€œYou got one guy going boom, one guy going whack, and one guy not getting in the endzone.”
― John Madden (describing VT's offense?)

Hooker shark do do do do do doooo

β€œTHE CUP IS GOING NOWHERE MIKEY!!! THEY DID IT SOMEHOW!!”

Let's close out season strong and worry about next year later. Would hate for that to happen and doubt it would but even so BB, QP and freshman will still be around. More likely HH stays around and one of the others leave

Well, if having too much talent at QB is a problem, then its a great problem to have.

Having too much talent at QB unfortunately means there is one less scholarship available for the rest of the team positions.

Ut Prosim Ad Dei Gloriam

After a game where 3 quarterbacks were needed, I'm pretty sure, "too much talent at quarterback" is not really a thing....

"Don't go to, go through"

I grant you that point.

Currently there are six quarterbacks on the roster (Hooker, RS Sophomore; Burmeister, RS Sophomore; Patterson, RS Freshman; Willis, RS Senior; Jackson, Freshman; and Kadam, Freshman) [Note: I did not see Noah Kim listed on the Roster]. I don't know if they are all on scholarship. If we had eight would that be too many? Which one of the current six would you trade for a quality defensive lineman? Which one of the remaining five would you trade for a four star running back? Which one of the remaining four would you trade for a shut down corner? My point was that there are a limited number of scholarships available and smarter people than I have to decide who gets them. My guess is that each year, the coach of unit X on the team gets less than he would like.

How many is enough? How many is too few? Ryan Willis will be gone having used up his eligibility and Noah Kim is being talked about being lost via the transfer portal. I don't see any QBs listed on our "commited" list and I don't know if there are any quarterback that have been offered but have not yet accepted. It is obvious that a pipeline of sorts is needed.

Ut Prosim Ad Dei Gloriam

Good post, but Kim was a commit, not an active college player. That is all.

I criticize knowing full well I could never do what these athletes do.

Who is the freshman Jackson that you mentioned? I don't know of any freshman QBs other than Kadum

"These people are losing their minds" - Mike Patrick

I feel bad that I've never heard of him

"These people are losing their minds" - Mike Patrick

He's probably a walk-on.

Noah Kim decomitted

A down vote?

We heard for so long nothing was being done in practice to have Willis lose his spot,

Have we heard this from a credible source or just speculation from random posters on a message board?

No, just your typical coach response in his pressers and interviews of we continuously evaluate each position and will make changes we deem fit. I did use a bit of assumption based on Willis winning the QB comp in the preseason, and continuing to start games when the product on the field was awful - as no QB was doing anything better in practice to take that position away.

I don't know if Jerry Kill is the reason for this teams improvement, but if it continues in the same amounts at the same rate week after week from here on out, then all I can say is: Bring On Clumpson!!!

uva - the taint of the ACC
XL Jockstraps 34 - Ascots 31
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I dont know if its Kill necessarily but:

Rushing Stats per Game:
BC - 98 rushing yards - 2.3 avg
ODU - 131 rushing yards - 3.4 avg
Furman - 227 rushing yards - 5.3 avg
Duke - 139 rushing yards - 3.2 avg
Miami - 153 rushing yards - 3.6 avg
URI - 224 rushing yards - 5.6 avg
UNC - 254 rushing yards - 4.2 avg

Kind of hard to compare anything because of the vast differences between the defenses faced and what their strategy was in that game...

Explosive Plays (over 15 yards per FPI):
BC - 0 Rushing 6 Passing
ODU - 1 Rushing 9 Passing
Furman - 5 Rushing 2 Passing
Duke - 2 Rushing 1 Passing
Miami - 4 Rushing 5 Passing
URI - 8 Rushing 9 Passing
UNC - 3 Rushing 8 Passing

*includes Pass Interference and unsportsmanlike penalties associated with rushing based on a podcast from Bill Connely and how he calculates explosive ratings

Hard to say if there is a big difference in just rushing stats, but generally the team is more explosive the past few games??

It's simple. He eliminated turkey πŸ¦ƒ bacon πŸ₯“ and now we are smashing folks. It's not a coincidence.

There are wolves and there are sheep, I am the sheep dog

If you play it, they will win.

"How the ass pocket will be used, I do not know. Alls I know is, the ass pocket will be used." -The BoD

I think there are at least 4 or 5 things which are having more impact on the running game than Jerry Kill.

1) Young OL's getting more comfortable
2) Healthy McLease
3) An increased running threat at QB (which adds an extra hat and allows the TE to be much more a threat).
4) The return of Hazleton (for much better perimeter blocking and a downfield threat) & the return of Turner (for a downfield threat). This pulls at least 1/2 player away from the line and increases the risk of blitzing.
5) D is playing better - and combined with 1-4 - means a more balanced Offense which means opposing Ds can't key on one or two aspects.
6) Not exactly playing the greatest teams in college football.

Football is an organic game. Everything impacts everything. Pass better, you run better. Run better, you pass better. Block better, you run better. Run better, you block better. Better pass rush, more ints & break-ups. Better coverage, more sacks and hurries. And so on.

I wrote a few weeks ago when the pitchforks were out that I actually thought this young team had a lot of room for growth, but my worry was they would be shell-shocked before getting the chance. Thankfully it's looking like my concern may have been misplaced but it's still a young team and the margin of error is pretty small.

This is an incredibly level headed post that unveils a lot of truth. It's ridiculous to think the hire of one assistant coach had suddenly turned this program around.

I'm just excited because I'm finally seeing growth. Our team looks like its improving with time, which is exactly what I was hoping for last year. I wasn't expecting to win a natty this year I just wanted to see our young guys improving and I finally feel like I'm starting to see that. I dunno what switch was flipped but I can tell a notable difference

Taylor, looking desperately throws it deep..HAS A MAN OPEN DANNY COALE WITH A CATCH ALL THE WAY DOWN TO THE FIVE!!!!....hes still open

The next 3 weeks I will find very interesting towards how we will fair during the Commonwealth Cup.

It should show us how we do/have grown vs Notre Dame and a good Wake Forest team as well as how UVA performs with a few injuries on both sides of their ball.

I'm hopeful to feel more optimistic about #16 than I feel a month ago.

VT Marketing Class of 2009
Current Roanoke-Hokie
Go Hokies!

I've been wondering, has it been a healthy McClease or has he finally gotten the lion's share of the carries? It seems like he got way more carries against UNC, and along with OLine progress got in more of a groove. He didn't split carries as much.

β€œIn order to conquer an animal, I have to think like an animal, and whenever possible, look like one.”
β€” Carl Spackler

Everybody talking about the personnel change of a mobile quarterback opening it up for our running backs is probably correct, but is also missing that we were able to line up with an empty backfield with QP and the whole stadium knew we were going to run, but we were still able to run better than we did in the beginning of the season. Our O-line play has improved tremendously

Recruit Prosim

Except the whole stadium didn't know we were going to run. QP was 3/6 passing, with 1 of the other 3 being beautiful balls that were dropped. He came out, dropped a few dimes, and made sure that UNC's defense had to at least consider the possibility of a pass. Even if it takes just one person out of the box, or makes one extra defender hesitate before running upfield, that could make a huge difference on a running play.

Edit: confused one of his passes with one of the earlier drops.

That's through rose tinted glasses. His first throw was egregiously out of bounds. The slant he threw in OT was so far behind his receiver it was almost behind the db who was trailing him and we were very lucky that was not picked. On one series we also ran him on first, second, and third down and only passed once there was literally no other option. Our play calling was somehow predictable and bizarre at the same time.

I will say though that the rb screen Willis threw when UNC brought the house was the perfect call for an overly aggressive defense going after a struggling qb

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I'm crediting Kill. He's the only difference recently. If he's not the sole reason, he's certainly a factor.

A buddy of mine sent me Jerry Kill's book. I just finished it. The answer to our post is HELL YES!

Kill's presence is not about X's and O's the last few weeks. It's not about a quarterback change. He is teaching our very talented and smart coaching staff how to nurture and lead big conference players. How many of us said something like "the coaches can't coach like they are at Memphis"!

Is there anybody who has watched VT the last few weeks who would argue that there is a "new" attitude or "soul" about the team???

We have a coaching staff that is trusting their back-ups more. Fuente is being more decisive. Players are playing their asses off!

I challenge you to read Kill's book and not see a new team attitude! Risk taking and loyalty to team matters. Even Fuente's press conferences are being handled differently.

BTW: my guess is we will never know for sure unless someone besides Kill talks about it. His job will be to be "Yoda"! Not out front.

I'm not sure his biggest contribution might not be to close the swinging door called the transfer portal.

Just keep watching!

I like the way you think.

#Let's Go - Hokies

Alright Jerry. We like what you're doing. Don't oversell it /s

"I'll put a quote here to distract you from my inane comment."-Me

Is it weird that I desperately want Coach Kill to have a clandestine TKP account to use for dropping astute observations on player performances in order to educate us all?

Jerry, Please.

VTCC '86 Delta Company, Hokie in Peru, Former Naval Aviator, Former FBISA, Forever married to my VT87 girl. Go VT!

So you gonna tell us the title of said book? Maybe even link to it?

I just ordered on Kindle, based on the Amazon reviews and this one. Seemed like a good $10 investment.

Based on what I've read about Jerry Kill, I've got to believe he's a positive influence on the team.

"Chasing Dreams: Living My Life One Yard at a Time" is the title.

Use this link or the one below the comments to support TKP when you order the book!

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"Chasing Dreams: Living My Life One Yard at a Time" is the title.

King Alum of the House Hokie, the First of His Name, Khal of the Turkey Legs, The rightful Heir to the Big Board, the Unbanned, Breaker of Trolls and Father of Gritty

That's good news 'cause I could use a couple more inches.

Like most jokes, they don't work if you have to explain them.

THIS x1000

Kill is beloved EVERYWHERE. Coaches love him, players love him, fans love him, admin loves him. There is a reason. Beyond that he knows football extremely well.

He will permeate everything in this team directly or indirectly and make it better.

Did anybody else hear on the broadcast that we had a "dangerous hooker!)? Really, I heard that said. My brother and I laughed till we cried. Loved it

I think it went as far as saying "hard to handle a dangerous hooker" which makes it even funnier.

We are in dangerous waters now that we no longer have a Pimpleton stick.

Kill was on ACC radio 3:30 ish today for anyone interested. Pretty much said what a lot of us were thinking.

Biggest Nugget: Fuente has gotten more involved in offense game plan/calling and being more aware of game day adjustments.

What was Fuente doing before???

Maybe people's perceived "lack of emotion" from him was just boredom.

Someone said Corny was in trouble on this board when Kill was hired. Kill could be heavily involved with the team next year, but if Fuente is indeed spending more time with the O already, then yes, I'd say Corny is in trouble.

TKPhi Damn Proud
BSME 2009

Is there any way to catch a replay somewhere?

I mean... isn't this what we've been saying all along? Fuente is the offensive mastermind and wasn't involved because he was allegedly trying to be the CEO-style coach. "The quarterback whisperer isn't the one who is whispering" is a quote I remember one four-legged poster typing at some point...

NEVER HIRE AN OFFENSIVE GURU TO BE YOUR HEAD COACH. Hire a defensive guru and let them hire an offensive guru as OC. Cornelsen should not be the OC, Fuente should. Same with Brian Kelly at ND. The only exception in CFB at the moment is Lincoln Riley, but I have no idea how much involvement he has in developing offensive talent and play calling.

It was just speculation until this interview by Kill but it would be really difficult to not discern that there has been some substantial change in something between the first four games and the last three. It's obvious in numerous ways. We could only guess that it was Kill's involvement because that was the only thing we could see that was different.

There are consequences to this already and in the future. Cornelson has to go. His time is done. Vice is a different story for me. He's recruited so well he has earned a reprieve, but he better learn how to coach run blocking. I'm also still in shock that Willis wasn't replaced by Hooker sooner. This really a bitter sweet situation. The improvement is astounding across the board but that exposes some bewildering decisions and weaknesses amongst the staff.

or...it could be as simple as Fuente getting more involved because they are now starting a QB with very little experience.

NEVER HIRE AN OFFENSIVE GURU TO BE YOUR HEAD COACH. Hire a defensive guru and let them hire an offensive guru as OC. Cornelsen should not be the OC, Fuente should. Same with Brian Kelly at ND. The only exception in CFB at the moment is Lincoln Riley, but I have no idea how much involvement he has in developing offensive talent and play calling.

I've posted about this a ton on TKP lately, but over the last 5+ years, Offensive head coaches are far more successful than promoted DCs.

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Maybe. This could include Meyer, whose last jobs were WR coaching gigs before taking the Bowling Green job (though I always thought of him as a defensive minded guy), and Dabo Swinney, who was also a WR coach before becoming a head coach.

Saban is a defensive guy, Pete Carroll, and Bob Stoops.

Gus Malzahn, Les Miles, Jimbo Fisher, and Mack Brown are the only coaches in the last 20 years that have been OCs and won national championships. Spurrier was a big offense guy too if you go back farther. Brown was an OC in 1984. Miles oversaw some terrible offenses but some fantastic defenses. Of the group, only Malzahn was highly regarded for his offensive prowess.

I brought up Brian Kelly for a reason, and I think Fuente is similar. When you have a great OC, they're usually great because they 1) know how to train players to execute an offensive system successfully and 2) are great, great play callers. Kelly used to say that he knew how to generate offense, and when he calls plays, he can! Tommy Rees looked like he was a Heisman candidate! But when he stopped, ND was not nearly as productive on the offensive side of the ball.

Lincoln Riley is clearly both brilliant at offense and head coaching a very good team. I think both OCs and DCs can be successful. But I think a bigger key to success is lost when a brilliant OC stops calling plays than when a brilliant DC takes their hands off the reigns.

Keep your brilliant OCs calling plays! It's the path to victory!

EDIT: heh look at me go. I named Malzahn the head coach of a football team that Gene Chizik, a defensive coach, clearly head coached to the national championship with Auburn. Shame on me, though that does reemphasize the point that a brilliant OC should be calling plays and that few national championship have been won since the 90s when an OC is the HC.

I've stated elsewhere, but OC's do better than DC's once being promoted HC. My analysis doesn't count promoted position coaches (because they don't come from a playcalling background).

  • The 2018 AP top 25 included 6 coaches who were hired from their DC role to their first HC role (Saban, Kirby, Mark Stoops, Pat Fitzgerald, Luke Fickle, Kirk Ferentz), compared to 14 Head coaches who were OC prior to becoming first time head coaches.
  • The 2017 AP top 25 included 7 coaches who were hired from their DC role to to their first HC role (Saban, Kirby, Patterson, Pat Fitzgerald, Charlie Strong, Dave Doreon, Mark Dantonio), compared to 13 Head coaches who were OC prior to becoming first time head coaches.
  • The 2016 AP top 25 included 4 coaches who were hired from their DC role to to their first HC role (Saban, Mike McEntire, Rocky Long, Kyle Whittingham), compared to 17 Head coaches who were OC prior to becoming first time head coaches.

Keep your brilliant OCs calling plays! It's the path to victory!

This is interesting... Would be interesting to compare 'CEO' coaches to coaches who own play calling duties (on both defense and offense).

Edit to add:

Gus Malzahn, Les Miles, Jimbo Fisher, and Mack Brown are the only coaches in the last 20 years that have been OCs and won national championships. Spurrier was a big offense guy too if you go back farther. Brown was an OC in 1984. Miles oversaw some terrible offenses but some fantastic defenses. Of the group, only Malzahn was highly regarded for his offensive prowess.

Not to be a dick - but this is flat out wrong:

  • Gus Malzahn has never won a Natty as HC - he was OC when Auburn won it (former DC Gene Chizik was the HC when Auburn won in 2010).
  • Jimbo is definitely a highly regarded offensive coach - I believe he owns/owned playcalling duties at FSU and now at TAMU.
  • Larry Coker was an OC at 4 schools before becoming a an HC and winning the title with Miami in 2001.
  • Fulmer was the OC at Tennessee for 3 years before being promoted.
  • Bowden was an OC at WVU before being promoted to HC there, (before being hired by FSU).
  • Jim Tressel was "QB/RB/WR" coach at OSU before getting the HC job at Youngstown state (then going on to be HC at OSU).

More food for thought:

  • Only 5 active coaches (Jimbo, Les, Brown, Saban, Dabo) have won a Natty as an HC (and I believe Saban has more than the other 4 combined).
  • Since the BCS started in 98, only 11 different coaches have won a natty.
  • Of the 11 coaches who have won Natty's since the start of the BCS era, 5 were former OC's, 3 were offensive position coaches who never held a coordinator role, and only 3 were ever DC's.

All this is to say, national titles don't really apply here... so much has to go right for you to get a shot at a natty, much less win one. Beyond that, Saban and Dabo have skewed the national championship discussion so much, it's not even a fair metric to describe good coaches.

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I would also like to see the overall percentage of FBS coaches (or possibly P5 coaches) promoted from a DC role to their first HC role vs the same for OCs. Having raw numbers about a subset of the population is relatively useless without similar data of the entire population to compare them to. As an example, if data shows that the average house in the USA has 4 people and 20 ants living in it, you wouldn't look at that data and say that ants are way more likely to live in houses than people are.

I agree that it would be great to have more data, but I also believe that this small set shows that more OCs-turned-HCs land in the top 25 than DCs-turned-OCs. Now, I understand your point that perhaps there's just significantly more OC promotions to HC, thus more OC's in the top 25. My belief (with no substantial data to back this up) is that:

  • Modern offenses have the advantage, moreso that at any point in post WWII college football history. In order to take advantage of this advantage, it's important to have a coach on staff who has a deep understanding of offense.
  • Offenses have changed so much in recent history, many of these coaches have seen wild changes to their play designing and play calling methodology. As a result, they are willing to seek out ways to innovate and outsmart their opponents, where as many defensive coaches (like Muschamp) seem content with just being more physical than the opponent.
  • Defensive coaches are by nature reactive (because they must react to what the offense does) where as offensive coaches are proactive (they get to chose what to do with the ball). I think mindset can translate to how I coach runs his program.

Obviously, there are no stats to prove this context, it's pure speculation.

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In order to take advantage of this advantage ...

Proud author of one plaid comment.

You're not being a dick, I don't think, you're surfacing some great points.

First, I totally misidentified Malzahn instead of Chizik, but that's more to the point, no? The great play caller was calling plays. You noted Jimbo as well, and, again, he is a great offensive coach and owns the play calling. This is 100% germane to the point - when a great OC becomes a coach, if he isn't still the play caller, then his promotion to head coach ends up losing out on one of his greatest strengths and a main reason for his team's success.

I also totally whiffed on Tressel. I generally stopped looking at past champions by time I got that far back, but it's a good point, Tressel was definitely an offensive guy. I don't know who was calling plays for tOSU at the time. Same with Fulmer. These are two really good examples of - maybe - offensive guys who gave up play calling duties and their teams won natties.

Larry Coker I'm going to have to disagree with a bit. You're right, he won when he was the coach of Miami, which was one year of success before their precipitous drop under his leadership. This isn't too far from saying that Brady Hoke was successful at Michigan (side note, I do believe Hoke was a defensive guy, but the offense at Michigan that year was Rich Rod's - definitely an innovative offensive guy who was on the precipice of making that team really good...and he was also calling plays).

Once we get back to Bowden, Spurrier, Osbourne...I think we're getting into a different era of college ball. They were all offensive guys, sure, and they were all successful, sure, but their tenures as offensive coordinators ended long before they won natties.

Bowden ended his last OC tenure in 1969 (24 years later, natty, Richt was the OC).
Osbourne 1972 (22 years later, natty AND he was the OC!).
Even Mack Brown's last OC gig was in 1984 (21 years later, natty, Greg Davis (?) OC).
Spurrier 1982 (14 years later, natty AND he was also the OC!).
Fulmer 1992 (6 years later, natty, Grandpa Cutcliffe was the OC!)
Tressel 1985 (18 years later, natty, Jim Bollman OC - but to be fair, Tressel won a few natties at Y-town St)

Two of these guys were also the OC! This is again, more to the point. If the OC becomes the HC, it's reasonable to want that guy to still be the OC. If Richt and Cutcliffe were calling plays for Bowden and Fulmer (which I do not know), then they had strong OCs behind a CEO-style head coach. I think over the years, some of these guys did become more like CEOs but hired effective OCs so they could take their hands off. Fuente hasn't done either - he hasn't kept playcalling duties and he hasn't hired a competent OC.

All of this makes total sense, and I think it offers further evidence that a great OC should still call plays when they become the HC - which is what I think Fuente should be doing, hopefully after the suggestions from Kill. I don't think we need Corny because I think Fuente should pull double duty. I don't want him to be the CEO, I want him to be the offensive mastermind.

As for the point about national championships, I disagree. I think that is the measuring stick. I'm not going to judge Fuente a success if he gets us into the top 25, though I won't think of him as a failure either.

This is a fun discussion though. I don't think there is a magic formula, I just know what I would want to do if I had the skill to be a great HC/OC or had the money to hire the right guys and put them in the right places.

EDIT: After two engineering degrees I still can't subtract. Modified Bowden's and Osbourne's tenures prior to their first NCs.

I agree - this is a fun discussion. And I conceed Larry Coker (or chizek) is probably the worst coach to win a natty. A little unfair for me to pick him as an example lol.

when a great OC becomes a coach, if he isn't still the play caller, then his promotion to head coach ends up losing out on one of his greatest strengths and a main reason for his team's success.

It's interesting to think about this in different ways. Beamer kept his responsibilities as special teams coordinator when he was a head coach. I wonder if head coaches have to give up other responsibilities when being HC? Fuente is pretty good at game management, calling timeouts, and not doing stupid clock things like James Franklin... I Just wouldn't want him losing focus of HC things just because he has to run the offense as well.

Twitter me

You know, I had the same thought about Beamer last night after writing this. At first I was thinking, 'Well, Beamer was a defensive guy...' but then I remembered he had Foster and could just hand the whole thing over to him. Then I thought, 'Maybe Beamer was a special teams guy...'

Some of the well know DC2HC's still game plan and call defenses. Gary Patterson and Saban come to mind. Wilcox at Cal does too.

Wow, Saban? Even with Kirby Smart having been his long-time DC? Patterson makes sense, and he was able to hand the OC stuff over to... Fuente! at one point when they went undefeated and won the Rose Bowl (Can I count this as a national championship? :p). I don't know much of anything about Wilcox.

Saban also had Pruitt as a DC too.

the "Saban calls the defensive plays" storyline is one of the reasons it's harder to judge Alabama DCs as head coach material. You can never fully tell how much is the DC talent vs Saban talent

Kirby looks like the real deal though, Pruitt not so much. Pruitt is in a much tougher job though.

Wes McElroy of sports radio 910 in richmond interviewed Jerry kill yesterday. He seem to love it at tech. Sounds like he wants to stay here

This is an absolute must-listen. Shared with JF:

  • Went back to some of the TCU days
  • The physicality of the team
  • How to practice
  • What I've done and how to be successful

https://thefanrichmond.radio.com/blogs/wes-mcelroy/listen-jerry-kill-imp...

'Its easy to grin, when your ship comes in, and you've got the stock market beat,
but the man worthwhile, is the man who can smile, when his shorts are too tight in the seat'

My wife tells me this is the happiest she's seen me in a long time

-Jerry Kill

Nice!

Man I bet when Beamer and Kill get together the himmin and the hawin is off the charts.

"That kid you're talking to right there, I think he played his nuts off! And you can quote me on that shit!" -Bud Foster

He called Kill a "Cancer survivor." Is that accurate? I thought his issues was seizures.

He's in remission from kidney cancer.

To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
@BuryHokie #ThanksFrank

That is one "feel good" guy.

Seems very happy to be at VT. Seems like he has a lot to offer, and is a perfect fit for our program.

Says it's a "young program". Some people here are really going to hate that.

I mean... compared to the big schools we're trying to catch up to, he's not wrong.

It IS frustrating to be a young team/program every year, or at least what seems like most years, but we absolutely are young still and you'll see a lot of young-player mistakes the rest of the year. Hopefully less and less as each game goes by. And hopefully we'll see a lot of those mistakes overcome by effort, much like we saw in the UNC game

Boy his little tirade on the portal was rough....

To let kids transfer at a young age and do what they want, I think is wrong...but as staff you have to deal with it

Overall that was some good insight into Kill and his philosophy I think he's good for the program for sure.

(add if applicable) /s

"If Fu goes to 2 acc champ games in 4 years, I will never criticize him again." - dcwilson

Statement, not a tirade...

To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
@BuryHokie #ThanksFrank

I mean it was a full minute of a 13 minute interview and certainly more than a single statement.

(add if applicable) /s

"If Fu goes to 2 acc champ games in 4 years, I will never criticize him again." - dcwilson

Tirade:

To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
@BuryHokie #ThanksFrank

little tirade

I don't know why you're so concerned with my word choice.

(add if applicable) /s

"If Fu goes to 2 acc champ games in 4 years, I will never criticize him again." - dcwilson

Just picked up a used copy of Jerry Kill "Chasing Dreams" off Amazon
It's signed by Jerry Kill and Jim Bruton!
A good sign.
Go Hokies!

twitter.com/bmdvt90