Coronavirus Discussion Thread XVI

From VTGuitarman's previous thread:

The current situation facing all of us is unprecedented. While TKP is generally not a place to discuss "breaking news" or emotionally charged topics, obviously the coronavirus pandemic affects us all. We recognize that TKP is a place many of us turn to for social interaction in these trying times, and discussing the coronavirus can be cathartic for many of us. We hope that we can continue to come together as Hokies to weather this storm.

That said, the explosion of comments in recent discussions has veered from useful to pointless and argumentative. Going forward, only Joe and the moderator team will post new "general discussion" threads on this topic. Others will be deleted. Moderators will lock threads as needed if discussion becomes destructive.

We invite you to use this space to discuss important information related to the coronavirus pandemic, like important advisories, closings, cancelations, and impacts on daily life. We are lucky that our community has many subject matter experts in health, science, public safety, public affairs, and local government, among others. Please continue to share your knowledge!

As always, the Community Guidelines will be enforced by the moderators as best we can. At this point, repeat offenders who continue pointless bickering and whose posts continually incite arguments will be banned, at least temporarily. Doing so is in the interest of keeping TKP a strong and positive community.

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Comments

everyone pls

"Why gobble gobble chumps asks such good questions, I will never know." - TheFifthFuller

You start a thread with pls...

King Alum of the House Hokie, the First of His Name, Khal of the Turkey Legs, The rightful Heir to the Big Board, the Unbanned, Breaker of Trolls and Father of Gritty

What happened?

Oh never mind. I probably don't want to know.

Recovering scientist working in business consulting

There were 999 reasons to close that thread.

But a bitch ain't one

edit: just to be clear, my comment was not directed at anyone, or any comment from the other thread, it was just a play on the "999 reasons", using a popular song from 2004 by the artist in the gif

Now finish up them taters; I'm gonna go fondle my sweaters.

in the words of Ted Yoho...

Warning: this post occasionally contains strong language (which may be unsuitable for children), unusual humor (which may be unsuitable for adults), and advanced mathematics (which may be unsuitable for liberal-arts majors)..

So let the sense, and the nonsense, begin!

Reel men fish on Wednesdays

Stay home when you can, wear a mask when around other people. It's not hard to beat this, so let's all buckle down and get it done. Better to be safe than sorry.

There's always a lighthouse. There's always a man. There's always a city.

Not trying to bring any of the shit over from the other thread, but re: Herman Cain, there were something like 40 days between testing positive and his death. Worth keeping in mind when we're looking at current positive case trends.

Not the bagman VT deserves, but the bagman VT needs right now.

Which other one? We got a few spiraling right now

King Alum of the House Hokie, the First of His Name, Khal of the Turkey Legs, The rightful Heir to the Big Board, the Unbanned, Breaker of Trolls and Father of Gritty

(っ◔◑◔)っ β™₯ everyone pls β™₯

"Why gobble gobble chumps asks such good questions, I will never know." - TheFifthFuller

(β•― Ν‘ΰ² β€―ΝœΚ– Ν‘ΰ² )╯┻━┻

There's always a lighthouse. There's always a man. There's always a city.

this made me legitimately laugh for the first time in a while, so thanks for that

"Why gobble gobble chumps asks such good questions, I will never know." - TheFifthFuller

To expand on this, I looked at the data for confirmed cases and deaths (USA) and found inflection points for both curves. This should probably be taken with a grain of salt since different parts of the country are experiencing very different trend behaviors, and it's still not clear to me how much positive tests are an indicator of spread vs. testing capacity, but for what it's worth, the inflection point for the deaths curve is lagging the inflection point of the positive cases curve by ~30 days.

Not the bagman VT deserves, but the bagman VT needs right now.

Abandon hope all ye who enter here

I had no idea you knew my ex.

If you play it, they will win.

"How the ass pocket will be used, I do not know. Alls I know is, the ass pocket will be used." -The BoD

Or that they knew my ex-fiance. Thankfully she turned into "The Witch" after I asked her to marry me, which give me the chance to call off the wedding and escape. She could have waited until after we had gotten married and then I would be some combination of (1) divorced, (2) dead or (3) in jail.

Recovering scientist working in business consulting

Has anyone had a friend that was engaged to an absolute piece of crap and you just hoped every day that some bombshell dropped to cause them to hate each other because you know that the marriage will be an absolute disaster causing two lives to ruin and causing you never to see said friend again?

My first wedding...my good friend and mother of the flower girl is in line throwing rice as we're leaving the reception. As I walk by she looks me in the eye and says "goo-oood luuu-uuck", with that "you're really going to need it" tone in her voice and look on her face. She was right; lasted 11 months. Fortunately we had no money and no kids...just had to figure out who got the cat (me). Easiest/best breakup ever.

If you play it, they will win.

"How the ass pocket will be used, I do not know. Alls I know is, the ass pocket will be used." -The BoD

If we ever get to meet in person, we'll have to swap stories.

Recovering scientist working in business consulting

To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
@BuryHokie #ThanksFrank

I love that show.

meet in person

What is that?

I've heard the old folks talk about. Apparently, they used to see each other with no FaceTime, Zoom, etc. In fact, no tablets, phones, or computers were involved at all. This was called "in-person" or "face-to-face." They would even get closer than 6ft. Sometimes, they would touch hands in an ancient ritual called "shaking hands" or even embrace one another in something called a "hug." It was...barbaric.

*Checks DOB on license.

I thought I read all of that in some old history book!

Oh, no!!!

If you play it, they will win.

"How the ass pocket will be used, I do not know. Alls I know is, the ass pocket will be used." -The BoD

We're getting closer and closer to being Solarians, aren't we? Now if only we could evolve those power transducer lobes....

If you're not sure if my comment warrants a "/s", it probably does.

So, this is neither here nor there. But I accidentally fatfingered when attempting to click this thread and went to GGC's profile where I found this little nugget:

Most Memorable Moment
THESE PEOPLE ARE LOSING THEIR MINDS

GGC, I didn't realize that moderating was your most memorable moment./S

If you play it, they will win.

"How the ass pocket will be used, I do not know. Alls I know is, the ass pocket will be used." -The BoD

it was a prophetic reference to me, Chris, VTGM, and Joe

"Why gobble gobble chumps asks such good questions, I will never know." - TheFifthFuller

Is this the longest recurring thread now? Not counting rolling topics like Recruiting and Fishing?

Everything from thread one published into a nice Novel one day is destined to be a best seller.

ESPN. The coverage is excellent, you'd be surprised at how much you can pick up.

I feel like we need to get to XIX in order for things to balance properly

Impressive results from J&J's vaccine candidate published in Nature. Challenge trial in rhesus macaques with arguably the most impressive results of any vaccine candidate. Effectively sterilizing immunity from a single dose. This one is a bit behind the front runners, with phase III expected to start in September.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2607-z

Hypothetically, if I say vaccine pls, will that jinx it?

Alternate theory, it COULD vaccinate the board against 'rona meltdowns. Big risk/reward situation here.

I like fluffy kittens.

This is going to be great for the ACC.

CDC Director Redfield testifying on Capital Hill this morning about the pandemic...

"It is in the public health interest of K-12 students to get these schools back open for face-to-face learning."

"We need to get on with it."

Leonard. Duh.

You left out A LOT of what he said

Now finish up them taters; I'm gonna go fondle my sweaters.

You're right. He also said this...

"I want it done smartly but I think we have to be honest that the public health and interest of the students in the station right now is to get a quality education face-to-face learning and when you do get on with it."

and this...

"The isolation that these adolescents are feeling, that now is associated with increased as you mentioned, increased drug overdose, that's and now increase suicide."

Leonard. Duh.

Dude, no one is arguing that keeping schools virtual is better for kids well being than having schools opening. What they're saying is that many school systems are woefully unprepared to open up safely during a pandemic. That requires planning, but most importantly it requires funding, something many school systems are woefully short on. You and folks like you just beating the drums of "open open open" seem to be having a really difficult time understanding this.

There's always a lighthouse. There's always a man. There's always a city.

Very well written and salient point about the real
Issue of school reopening for so many places.

Wet stuff on the red stuff.

Join us in the Key Players Club

I'm not having a difficult time understanding anything. I'm just relaying the Director of the CDC's "expert opinion" that the benefit of in-person school for children far outweighs the risk of stay at home school as long as it's done safely, which looks very doable given the data on children and transmission.

Do we not give the director of the CDC's opinion any weight on this?

Leonard. Duh.

I think we give him lots of weight, but I recall from earlier threads, you stating that public policy needs to be a mix of inputs from different fields. Given that it would be better for kids to be in school, and given that schools need additional funding to safely achieve that, we either need to a) generate revenue for the schools that enables them to open safely, b) postpone opening until the environmental safety concerns subside. Just calling for opening without a funded plan is how you get Florida.

Get Angry, Bud!

very doable given the data on children and transmission that I have chosen to accept as unalterable truths while ignoring the evidence that opposes my viewpoint

There, fixed that statement for you.

There's always a lighthouse. There's always a man. There's always a city.

Wow.

Leonard. Duh.

Dude, there's 15 threads worth of this exact thing happening.

There's always a lighthouse. There's always a man. There's always a city.

To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
@BuryHokie #ThanksFrank

Double wow!

"Hey Bud, you wont have to hold the opponent to 17 points anymore."

really?

"Why gobble gobble chumps asks such good questions, I will never know." - TheFifthFuller

given the data on children and transmission

You keep falling back on that, but more and more the data points to limited transmission is only for elementary school aged children. The data says that kids over age 10 transmit it just as much as adults. The fact that you continually ignore this tells me that you don't actually care about the data. You only care about data that supports your preconceived viewpoint.

Are you arguing that I'm taking Dr. Redfield out of context, and he's actually recommending that schools remain all virtual?

Leonard. Duh.

Nope not at all, just pointing out that the first two quotes you shared made it sound like Redfield thinks schools should open today full go. Which, as we both know, is not what he said.

I'm actually really glad you support Redfield's opinions on the virus. Redfield has also said that if everyone would wear a mask, we could get under control in 4-8 weeks. So do you part, get out there and start encouraging everyone to wear the damn mask.

Now finish up them taters; I'm gonna go fondle my sweaters.

To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
@BuryHokie #ThanksFrank

"Why gobble gobble chumps asks such good questions, I will never know." - TheFifthFuller

To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
@BuryHokie #ThanksFrank

SO, uh, how does everyone think COVID will affect our series with Liberty moving forward?

[ducks]

Warning: this post occasionally contains strong language (which may be unsuitable for children), unusual humor (which may be unsuitable for adults), and advanced mathematics (which may be unsuitable for liberal-arts majors)..

Hahahahaha YES.

10/10

keeping the theme above...

To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
@BuryHokie #ThanksFrank

"Why gobble gobble chumps asks such good questions, I will never know." - TheFifthFuller

To Joe and the mods...I'd pour ya a large one if I could.

To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
@BuryHokie #ThanksFrank

"Why gobble gobble chumps asks such good questions, I will never know." - TheFifthFuller

Hey, quick question if anyone knows. As mentioned in a prior thread, my wife was recently furloughed. She was still getting paid for some time off that was banked but is now going to be able to claim unemployment. She is in psychometrics (basically applied statistics) and thinks her chances of getting called back or hired at another place is much better if she moves into program management rather than staying in stats. There are courses she has to take for it. You have to be actively looking for work to collect. Is engaging in that type of job training considered the same thing as "looking for work"? My guess was no and that she needs to be looking and keep a log of her job search, but we cannot find a straight answer on the NJ website.

Second question is are these program management courses worth it? She was saying they could run over $1,000, which is not a big deal, but if people think they are worthless, then why spend the money?

EDIT: the program she was looking at through Cornell is several thousand dollars.

Recovering scientist working in business consulting

There are never enough PM out there. Weather direct hire or subcontract. I'd do it.

"Hey Bud, you wont have to hold the opponent to 17 points anymore."

Thank you Musky.

Recovering scientist working in business consulting

My SO has her PMP certification and took a training course prior to taking the exam. The trainers said that there is over a 90% pass rate for those who take the course. I don't think her course was several thousand dollars though.

And I've taken other (non-PM) certification trainings and those helped immensely with passing the exams. I'd say it's worth it.

Our school system will be proceeding with two days per week in person and three days virtual. We are looking like we will have fall youth baseball and spring youth football. Overall, I am not unhappy with how we will be moving forward this fall. However, I think we could have went with 4 long days for k-5 and used the virtual as a fall back if things started backsliding. The good news is that the kids will be able to socialize some while implementing some common sense practices. The bad news is our county is still not equipped for the technology required to adequately and fairly do a virtual curriculum.

"If you don't have time to do it right, when will you have time to do it over?"

Informed that our daughter's school (Catholic school in southern NJ) is planning to open full time in-person. I was actually expecting it to be 2 or 3 days in person. Not too many details yet, but they are supposed to come in a week or so.

Those who do not want to go in-person will have the option of remote learning instead with broadcasts from the classrooms.

Supposedly they will have some kind of clear tri-fold shield around the desks. No pictures were included, but sounds like a big U shaped thing that covers 3 sides with the back open for the seat to slide into and out of as you get up.

Kids will not have to wear masks as long as they are at their desks within the shields. Have to wear them everywhere else.

Band practice will remain remote for the foreseeable future.

TBD if they have lunchroom open or recess or aftercare or anything like that. Rumors that the kids will stay in their homeroom for most or all classes and that the teachers will rotate but not known yet.

Recovering scientist working in business consulting

A Georgia summer camp where covid spread among campers and councilors. Notably, of the 100 6-10 year-olds, 51 tested positive.

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6931e1.htm?s_cid=mm6931e1_w

A total of 597 Georgia residents attended camp A. Median camper age was 12 years (range = 6–19 years), and 53% (182 of 346) were female. The median age of staff members and trainees was 17 years (range = 14–59 years), and 59% (148 of 251) were female. Test results were available for 344 (58%) attendees; among these, 260 (76%) were positive.

Note: I am not an expert in this field at all. Feel free to point out bad assumptions on my part.

I'm not an expert either, I'm not going to call it a "bad assumption", (we're both just a couple of laydudes on the internet) but it would be an assumption based on the paper that COVID spread among the campers and counselors. From my reading, it looks like the paper is apparently demonstrating an attack rate at this camp, but it doesn't indicate an index case status, or secondary attack rates. It's just a report that says, there was this camp, and there are some cases.

More digging needs to be done, I would think.

Leonard. Duh.

WGN news story on viral loads in young children.

If anyone is curious about what drum I may beating... this is it. This is a news article covering a recent JAMA study on viral loads of young children. The first sentence...

A troubling study just released by the Journal of the American Medical Association Pediatrics may give pause to parents and educators considering whether to reopen schools.

Way down in the article it states that the higher viral loads were found in children under 5 yrs old. (not school age). Also, there is nothing definitive on transmission, these are just viral loads measured in a lab.

The title of the article warns of "silent spreaders". Problem is... the study was run with kids who were mildly, to moderately symptomatic. The study expressly excludes asymptomatic cases.

I don't have a huge problem with the study itself... although, if I wanted to learn about real life transmission, I would take a look at the vast amounts of empirical data available out there from the daycare centers that have been open since late March. The problem is WGN and their kind of misleading reporting. That's the drum I beat.

Leonard. Duh.

Here's a link to the study.
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapediatrics/fullarticle/2768952

I sorta agree with you. This is literally the most bare-bones study I've ever read. Usually, when you're doing qRT-PCR you try to control for different amounts of template being added to the reactions. I don't see anything like that here, so I wouldn't make much of it, personally. Might be off base here. Not my field.

For the diagnostic test, they don't control for amount of input. They just take the swab sample, prep it and run it, which is suitable for a +/- result. But you are absolutely right, it is hard to make comparisons for viral load without controlling input. Also worth noting that the swabbing technique to get sample makes it nearly impossible to control input. That said, those are some super high viral loads. In fact, the CT values (less than 15) are too low for accurate comparison. RT-PCR accuracy zone is between 20-35 cycles.

From this data, all that I would conclude is that these are high viral loads.

πŸ¦ƒ πŸ¦ƒ πŸ¦ƒ

You're still not addressing middle and high schoolers that spread the disease as much as adults.

Sure, why not...

This table is from the South Korean study that was touted by the NYT that screamed we can't go to school because 10-19 year olds spread like adults.

0-19 year olds in this study make up 2.7% of the index cases based on contact tracing. As far as I can tell from the previous fifteen threads we've been through, everybody agrees that the South Koreans have contact traced the fuck out of this thing.

Leonard. Duh.

Who just constantly down votes every post he makes. Totally defeats the purpose of the system.

never mind that pesky other table

Strange that you chose to exclude the other table (Table 2) from that article that shows 10-18yr olds having the highest rate of transmission per contact. This is relevant because kids have generally had far fewer contacts than adults, especially after schools closed.

South Korea study

Also 2.7% is the percentage of the total number of index patients in the study that are 0-19yrs old. But this study has a large number of index patients. That 2.7% still amounts to 124 10-19yr olds. Don't act like this is a small sample size issue.

I'll say it to you again, the fact that there are so few positive cases among kids is expressly because we closed schools and daycares to prevent them from exposure, not because they have some magic resistance to transmission. What we did is working for those age groups, so why on earth would we change now?

"Sooner or later, if man is ever to be worthy of his destiny, we must fill our heart with tolerance."
-Stan Lee

"Never half-ass two things. Whole-ass one thing."
-Ron Swanson

"11-0, bro"
-Hunter Carpenter (probably)

Have any of these studies broken down the 10-19 range any further? I'm curious to see if it's weighted more on one end of that age group.

This is what I would love to see and is one of the limitations of this study. There is a huge difference between a 1yr old and a 9yr old. I want to know transmission levels of elementary school age children vs infants and toddlers. I would also suspect that the transmission rates are vastly different between 18-19yr olds compared to 10-11yr olds based on behavior and levels of socialization/physical contact alone.

I think the biggest obstacle with getting that data is that so many kids have been successfully isolated from potential exposure to the virus due to school and daycare closures that the pool of potential candidates is very limited. It's similar to how early on everyone thought that young adults weren't as susceptible because so few were testing positive, then a few Spring Break trips, frat parties, and bar openings completely shutdown that train of thought.

"Sooner or later, if man is ever to be worthy of his destiny, we must fill our heart with tolerance."
-Stan Lee

"Never half-ass two things. Whole-ass one thing."
-Ron Swanson

"11-0, bro"
-Hunter Carpenter (probably)

Middle and high schoolers can adapt to virtual/distance learning better than the younger kids. And I'm more concerned about the younger kids.

The kids in elementary school, especially K-2, haven't fully learned how to school. They don't quite grasp the concept of homework. To them, there is still a very large separation between home and school.

I feel for the families who have kids due to start Kindergarten this fall and have to do it online. They're losing out on the most important part of K, which is learning how to share and interact with other people, and getting used to a daily routine. Without that, they might as well just watch Sesame Street for six hours.

We didn't even have kindergarten when I grew up. I mean, I assume some did, but we never did. My wife's kindergarten was a few mornings a week in the basement of a retired teacher with a few other kids from her neighborhood. We were Navy brats in military housing, so maybe that's why, but I wouldn't be able to recall and my folks are long gone. We didn't have Sesame Street, though we did have a half hour of Miss Francis and Romper Room, but mostly we went outside and played. Kids used to do that way back then, even little ones. I know school's important, and I know things are different today, even without the virus, but I suspect the perceived potential damage to kids is being over emphasized and either way, not worth the lives of the rest of us, either for parent's convenience or to advance a particular political agenda. I do realize that folks need to get back to work and kids at home aren't going to make that easy, but there's more in play here than just "the children". I don't believe they will be permanently damaged by delaying their school days a bit and while I do value their health and well being, I don't value theirs more than anyone else's.

Reel men fish on Wednesdays

I wholeheartedly respect your opinion but I strongly disagree. The curriculum for early education has changed so much that the comparison is apples to oranges. Social interactions have changed as well. I wish kids would go out and play more but sadly it isn't reality for a lot of locations.

"If you don't have time to do it right, when will you have time to do it over?"

Agree with you both to varying degrees. I was a USAF brat and didn't do kindergarten(which was NOT mandatory) because when my mom asked what they would be teaching she was told "well he'll learn the alphabet and his colors and be able to count from 1-20". Since I had been read to since birth and had been reading myself since age 3 1/2, my mom (correctly in my opinion) decided that my education would be better served by me staying home and learning on my own through reading and from picking things u from my parents and 5 older siblings. and honestly, the only reason I got more/much of anything from the first 3-5 years of school was that I was fortunate enough to attend schools and have teachers who recognized that I was better off being given assignments to work on by myself independently and help other students than to be bored to death sitting around til others were ready to move on.

But yes also, like most kids of my era (born 1965) I was TOLD - not asked- to go outside and play- and had the freedom to ride my bike miles away from my house on my own to play back yard football and basketball with other kids and to be back home by suppertime. Plus again with multiple siblings, I was "schooled" in associating in social interactions every day. My sister said it best when she told me about a kid's party she had for her kids and their friends where she had only a very small amount of "structured" activities leaving a lot of time for "free play". Sadly many of the kids had no idea what to do with themselves as they had never had much if any time to just "go and be kids". That type of "play" with no adults "telling" them what to do is where kids learn to exercise their imaginations and entertain themselves without just sitting in front of a screen.

I think the in-person school experience IS most important in the elementary school years where a child "learns how to learn". I am quite thankful my own kids are in their late 20s and that my family is not having to deal with this virtual vs. in person education issue.

From the 2018 VT-uva game-"This is when LEGENDS are made!"

Well, you're right. I does seem that kids today are raised totally differently than we were (born 1950) but I do often wonder about parenting choices and styles being the reason for it. My brother, and I love him, but he lived on 5 acres in Nelson County, off the main road. His two boys weren't allowed to go outside unsupervised. In the day time. On their own property. The list of fears were almost ludicrous, but what do you say to a concerned parent? The kids weren't bored often, I guess, because they had all the games and such, though TV time was limited and mostly educational. My mother kicked us out of the house for a lot of the day and it was up to us to entertain ourselves. Yes, we had kids in the neighborhood though we lived in the country, and we did play together often, especially baseball and football, but we also spent a lot of time with one or even no friends doing things like exploring the woods and in my case, fishing. But yeah, we rode our bicycles miles away from home on skinny country roads to get to fishing holes, swam in a local pond unsupervised (after passing an easy swimming "test" and getting parental permission), and generally showed up in time for supper or got punished if we didn't. I'm not sure parents today are willing to do that for their kids, and I know in some places shouldn't do that to their kids. What a world, what a world?

Reel men fish on Wednesdays

I grew up very near Ben Lomond Park in Manassas, across the creek from Bull Run, and some of my best childhood memories were when my buddies and I would grab our bikes, ride through the paths in the woods, cross the creek, get soaked, explore Bull Run, dry out, cross the creek, get soaked, and then show up at home caked in mud.

I sorta agree with you

None of this is my field. But I know sensationalism, and that article is textbook. I'm not anti-pandemic, anti-mask, or anti-whatever. I just want honest reporting, and some practical/logical context given with the data every now and then... Especially when society changing, gi-normous policy decisions are being made because of it.

Leonard. Duh.

I suggest that everyone just take a look at Sweden's approach to the whole thing!

"Hey Bud, you wont have to hold the opponent to 17 points anymore."

Why? They are nowhere near the percentage needed for their herd immunity and were the second highest infected country last month? Yes they are seeing cases drop but if you are asserting the correlation of no lockdown with causation of lower cases that is a dangerous assumption.

Culturally things like being a more isolated/introverted country, health care norms, paid time off for illness, and perceived social responsibility are all other impacts that matter.

VB born, class of '14

I was genuinely curious, so I looked.

https://www.newsweek.com/sweden-which-never-had-lockdown-sees-covid-19-c...

Amid fears over a potential second wave of the novel coronavirus across Europe, new infections in Sweden, where full lockdown measures were not implemented, have mostly declined since late June.

The number of new cases per 100,000 people in Sweden reported over the last 14 days since July 29 dropped by 54 percent from the figure reported over 14 days prior to then, according to the latest report Wednesday from the World Health Organization (WHO).

Meanwhile, other parts of Europe have reported large spikes in new cases over the same period, including Spain, France, Germany, Belgium and The Netherlands, which have seen increases between 40 and 200 percent over the last month, according to the latest WHO report Wednesday.

And then this one...
https://fortune.com/2020/07/29/no-point-in-wearing-mask-sweden-covid/

Sure. While we're at it, can we adopt Swedens approach to social welfare and universal Healthcare?

There's always a lighthouse. There's always a man. There's always a city.