DE Jaevon Becton suspended

No longer listed on the roster at HokieSports

https://247sports.com/college/virginia-tech/Article/Virginia-Tech-Hokies...

DISCLAIMER: Forum topics may not have been written or edited by The Key Play staff.

Comments

Big ommph

Beg to differ. After the last two catastrophic off seasons, the sum total of the events in this off season is finally pretty normal. This is run of the mill stuff happens...........although still holding my breath on the Rutgers transfer waiver, is there any timeline for that? A denial there, that would be a really big ommph.

The LewDew, Professional Golf Bum

But, I do believe he is Naquan Brown's cousin, so probably not great...

Gotta be student conduct or academic honor court right?

Wet stuff on the red stuff.

Join us in the Key Players Club

How long should I wait before I post wild unfounded hearsay about what's going on?

Asking for my "insider".

If you have to ask the question you're too late.

(add if applicable) /s

I heard he set all of the frogs free from the biology lab and put the principal's car on the roof. Expect a long suspension. I heard this from every 90s sitcom.

I heard he put a UVA shirt on a Hokie bird statue and was caught in the act.

/S

β€œBut do kind of enjoy reading this thread, it's really nice because Auburn can't swoop in and take our juicy ripe tomatoes.” ~ lewiswb

I'm like 90% sure that leads to the death penalty 100% of the time.

He set all the frogs free in the Biology Lab? Sounds like he could play a role in the next Beerfest movie

HTHokie93

next Beerfest movie???

Never Forget #1 Overall Seed UVA 54, #64 UMBC 74

Elliott rescues the frogs in ETmake funny GIFs like this at MakeaGif" />

Warning: this post occasionally contains strong language (which may be unsuitable for children), unusual humor (which may be unsuitable for adults), and advanced mathematics (which may be unsuitable for liberal-arts majors)..

"should of"

Always a leg for Aggretsuko.

My 2020 Season/Covid19 Challenge: only comment with Marvel memes.

My 2019 Season Challenge: only comment with Star Wars memes. (completed as of Nov. 29)

Sooo goood.

Hey its the off-season, this type of stuff happens

Hokies, Local Soccer, AFC Ajax, Ravens

Vroom Vroom

Has the Reed kid from Youngstown State decided on his school yet? That just potentially became a much bigger get for us

Gobble Till You Wobble

Numbers always work out amirite?

Somehow I am just seeing this thread for the first time today, and I read your comment thinking that it was you that was wayyyy behind the times

Now finish up them taters; I'm gonna go fondle my sweaters.

Is this going to be another situation where we let power hungry 20 year olds, whose brains aren't even fully developed yet, determine the academic and athletic fate of a peer?

The release says it is a student conduct issue. Those cases are handled by VT staff, not students. Honor Court is different.

That's a huge relief.

"Why gobble gobble chumps asks such good questions, I will never know." - TheFifthFuller

The best relief. You can ask anyone.

My 2020 Season/Covid19 Challenge: only comment with Marvel memes.

My 2019 Season Challenge: only comment with Star Wars memes. (completed as of Nov. 29)

Things might be different since I graduated in 2015, but student conduct process frequently was poorly and inconsistently handled by staff. Obviously have 0 info on what happened here so guess we shall see.

Which is code for "my friend got into trouble and I am mad about it"

"If you don't have time to do it right, when will you have time to do it over?"

I cringed reading this comment, as it implies that a 20 year old student on the honor court is power hungry with an undeveloped brain while a 20 year old athlete must be an innocent victim.

I have no doubt that honor court situations aren't always handled correctly and that defendants are often unhappy with the outcome, but no justice system is perfect and typically the public isn't privy to the same details about the situation. Ultimately, I don't think it's right to vilify VT students who choose to participate in the honor court because they may potentially be involved in decisions that negatively affect the athletics programs.

Joffrey, Cersei, Ilyn Payne, the Hound, Jeff Jagodzinski, Paul Johnson, Pat Narduzzi.

What kind of people do you think seek out those positions of power over other students? Not the kind of people who should be getting to decide the fate of their peers.

I don't care how much you "cringed" reading this, 20 year olds shouldn't be making decisions over the futures of other 20 year olds. They just aren't ready. I'm not so far removed from college to remember exactly the kind of people who desire this kind of power over their peers, and how absolutely incompetent and immature most college age kids are.

may potentially be involved in decisions that negatively affect the athletics programs.

This isn't why I don't like it, if you do something wrong you deserve to face relevant consequences. However, the last time one of these did notably involve a student athlete, they refused to accept evidence that cleared one of our players of the false accusations against him. Evidence that was enough for the police, but not good enough for some self-righteous college kids.

So they could be selected for jury duty but not honor court?

Edit: you are also painting with way to broad of a brush to assume the students are power hungry. And for that matter, why would anybody want to be a judge? Are they incompetent because they want power?

"If you don't have time to do it right, when will you have time to do it over?"

A man-made age distinction, not sure how this is relevant to my point. Not to mention when these rules were established adolescence hadn't been extended as deep into young adulthood as it nowadays.

edit: Also, have you ever seen a jury where the entire jury was 22 or under? I would imagine there are specific guidelines to prevent this from happening.

What chris made age distinction would be appropriate to serve on the honor court then?

"If you don't have time to do it right, when will you have time to do it over?"

There wouldn't be a student honor court.

You win

Recruit Prosim

I would imagine there are specific guidelines to prevent this from happening.

There aren't. Random panel for jury selection would likely make it nearly statistically impossible though.

πŸ¦ƒ πŸ¦ƒ πŸ¦ƒ

They could be selected but they at least go through a vetting process by lawyers from both sides. None of my friends who have been summoned for jury duty have been selected, presumably because they're not ideal jury candidates. AFAIK, VT honor court does not provide the opportunity to vet the people jurying the case. That leads to flawed and biased results.

I don't care how much you "cringed" reading this, 20 year olds shouldn't be making decisions over the futures of other 20 year olds. They just aren't ready.

I don't buy this. So 20 year olds are incompetent then? They vote in elections and serve in the military.

There are 40 year olds who are incompetent

I just sit on my couch and b*tch. - HokieChemE2016

At least they have twice the life experience

Recruit Prosim

You guys are not reading deep enough into Chris' statements. He's not saying 20 yr olds shouldn't be allowed to judge. He is saying 20 yr olds shouldn't be allowed to judge exclusively. 20 yr olds are in the military and they can vote but would you want our country protected by exclusive 18-22yrs? I'm talking private to general. Or our next president decided by that same group? This age group should have a say so but judge and jury? I'm with Chris, minus the power hungry part. I won't put that on the student group....

Or our next president decided by that same group?

Not to nick-pick but yes.

To be fair I don't know the inner-workings, but I would guess the structure isn't some post-apocalyptic free-for-all kangaroo court. You have guidelines and you follow it, so I would (further guess) they aren't randomly doing rules on-the-spot.

Keep in mind that just because one may be 20 that they are inherently worse than an older adult. I know plenty of dumb-ass older people who are "power hungry" and "shouldn't be allowed to judge" either, but thankfully they aren't laywers or put into positions to do so (...most of the time. Exclude politicians maybe). Similarly, I would give these kids the benefit of the doubt. I think we do them a disservice by dismissing them entirely. Kids put into these positions usually have a sense of understanding of what they are doing and don't wield that hammer without needing to.

Bottom line - it's unfair and dismissive to think "Oh. Well you're 20. You're most likely power hungry / crazy and don't know what you're doing" when there are a shit-ton of adults who are like that too.

Maybe you didn't get what I was saying. I never said anything about "power hungry". And to be transparent, I don't want all 40+yr olds either. 20yr olds haven't experienced enough to be able to effectively judge ever situations. All courts should be have jurors of mixed ages and ethnicities.....IMO

I did. I was trying to explain that to you that it isn't just 20 year olds trying to do whatever they want. They have rules/guidelines to follow so that it isn't the wild, wild, west. And considering it is a jury of "their peers" / age group, I think they don't need someone who's 40 years old to effectively judge themselves.

The 20 year olds in the military are still in grades where nearly everything they do is subject to direct supervision and other members will not face final judgment from a panel of 20 year olds when they screw up.

It's not like a university student court at all.

As you continue to get older and older, you might just realize that many adults are still immature and bad at making decisions. In fact, adults make terrible decisions that ruin the futures of juveniles to a far greater extent than the honor court can every single day. As I said, I don't doubt that the honor court has made wrong decisions but you've provided no evidence to support this claim that the majority of students serving on the honor court do it to ruin lives as part of some power trip.

Joffrey, Cersei, Ilyn Payne, the Hound, Jeff Jagodzinski, Paul Johnson, Pat Narduzzi.

but you've provided no evidence to support this claim that the majority of students serving on the honor court do it to ruin lives as part of some power trip.

Probably because I didn't make this claim?

I said I know the kind of people who seek out these positions. Power is corrupting in general, you can read a fucking million different peer-reviewed works on the subject. That stands true throughout time no matter the age, but it seems particularly unwise to give 20 year olds, who we have culturally allowed adolescence to extend further and further than it has ever been, be making life-altering decisions over other 20 year olds. It's just not a good idea.

I think if you are a fair decision maker, you are so by the age of 20. Similarly, there are 50 year olds that will make every poor decision presented to them. Finally, elder members could just as likely be less empathetic toward the students. It is a jury of peers.

"If you don't have time to do it right, when will you have time to do it over?"

I think if you are a fair decision maker, you are so by the age of 20

Why would this be determined by 20? The brain isn't fully developed until roughly 25.

Better not be buying a home or starting retirement plans or anything else until then I guess. Come on, fully developed is relative anyway. Is there an IQ score you would like to hit before being licensed to be a member of society?

"If you don't have time to do it right, when will you have time to do it over?"

I think this might be a discussion better carried out somewhere else, this thread is about Becton's suspension, not the merits of the honor court.

Only at The Key Play does a thread devolves into debate about the merit of student court.

β€œBut do kind of enjoy reading this thread, it's really nice because Auburn can't swoop in and take our juicy ripe tomatoes.” ~ lewiswb

I do think you should be required to take a test before posting on twitter...

And if you fail the test you are then allowed to post on Twitter? Makes sense to me, reminds me of the Mexican bar we went to one night, they frisked you at the door and if you didn't have a long knife on you they gave you one so you could enter.

The LewDew, Professional Golf Bum

So? Does that mean they shouldn't drive a car either? Not fully developed could still kill someone?

Or at least have to pay significantly higher insurance premiums. Oh, wait...

"Sooner or later, if man is ever to be worthy of his destiny, we must fill our heart with tolerance."
-Stan Lee

"Never half-ass two things. Whole-ass one thing."
-Ron Swanson

"11-0, bro"
-Hunter Carpenter (probably)

and rental car companies should put restrictions on who can rent based on age that directly coincides with that 25 year mark...

πŸ¦ƒ πŸ¦ƒ πŸ¦ƒ

power hungry 20 year olds, whose brains aren't even fully developed yet

What kind of people do you think seek out those positions of power over other students? Not the kind of people who should be getting to decide the fate of their peers.

I know the kind of people who seek out these positions.

You've very clearly claimed that students serving on the honor court do so because they are power hungry while implying they use the power to negatively affect other students. So yeah, I really don't see how it's a stretch to say you believe students serve on the honor court as part of power trip to ruin lives.

Joffrey, Cersei, Ilyn Payne, the Hound, Jeff Jagodzinski, Paul Johnson, Pat Narduzzi.

You're making leaps that I didn't say.

I think college students getting their lives ruined is a potential result of letting 20 year olds, who I feel are not the best option to make decisions with serious weight and magnitude over other 20 year olds. So why would we allow this to even exist?

I did say there are certain types of people who are attracted to those roles, and will continue to be attracted to them after their college years. They are not inherently evil people, but it's not ridiculous to say people with an inclination to seek power are power hungry. It's also not a ridiculous assertion to suggest that power, in general, is often a corrupting force. That's a much bigger conversation for another forum, but there is a nearly endless amount of literature both for entertainment and academic purposes on the subject.

I think the overall sentiment was to not paint 20 years old with a broad brush. In my time in the military, I've met people in there 20s that are well beyond their years. I think honor court should be handled on a case by case basis and I'm not sure what incident you were talking about regarding law enforcement, but I think that college rules are different than rules for the general public.
I do think there should be a senior advisor or professor to work with them just in case they need to be "guided" to make a correct decision.

On a similar topic, this would be saying like all cops were picked on and just power hungry when you have some cops that are acting like jerks and harassing people.

The corruptible force of power is independent of age.

Any human system will get things wrong from time to time.

I will stop now, but I gotta say it drives me crazy to hear that a 20+ year old doesn't have a developed brain.

"If you don't have time to do it right, when will you have time to do it over?"

All this 20 year old stuff is one issue, the other is the type of people who take that type of position being power hungry. Maybe that's true, but unless you've talked to a bunch of them, you don't know that's true (I know you said it's only the potential that a kid could have their life ruined). But maybe the types of people who are taking those positions are kids who hope to be lawyers and just want the experience, and if so, defense attorneys would be more likely to ensure kids aren't crucified with shaky evidence. And kids who want to be prosecutors would (hopefully) want to only make sure kids who are actually guilty are punished.

But we don't know the reasons the kids take those positions - maybe power, but I'd think a lot of kids in college would do it for experience as well.

Except there's no burden of proof (which the law actually requires).
Another thing to consider....

The deck is stacked against the students because if it comes down to conflicting accounts by the student or professor, which student judge is gonna feel great about basically telling a tenured professor that "they're wrong" or "their word isn't good enough". The fact is, its a rather uncomfortable position to be put in as a student.

However, given the fact that the student chose to do it (for some stupid, self-serving reason), they are still perpetuating the system that most intelligent individuals can see is clearly broken.

True about burden of proof.

But weighing telling a tenured professor they're wrong or their word isn't good enough is counter-balanced by knowing the other result is expelling a kid (most likely), and what that might do to a kid.

A lot of people will point out that the justice system isn't perfect either. You have to evaluate the alternative. Having kids may (or may not) make them more sympathetic to other kids over older adults if that's the alternative.

Yep - I saw this through my roommate going to the honor court for "cheating" in one of the coding classes. He was a genuinely smart guy who did not cheat. He actually met the person he supposedly cheated with at their hearing. All evidence was based off of having similar structure in the anticheating software

Danny is always open

Don't they teach to code the same way???

It's worse than that, when I was at school every single person that took microprocessors could have been brought to honor court. There was a project that you had to use a "bug" in the processor to divide the numbers required. The code was written in the text book. Being that this was assembly you really had to copy the code out of the book to make it work, there weren't any changes that could be made. So either you pass the project and violate the honor code or you dont pass the project.

Copying work out of the text book is against VTs honor code.

I was a freshmen in high school on our honor court and had the displeasure of being forced to vote to expel fellow students, because of their choice to be brought before the court 2 or more times. Our honor system meant you could be expelled with 2 or more honor court separate convictions.

Wet stuff on the red stuff.

Join us in the Key Players Club

So, 20 year olds judging honor court isn't great, but there are 8162653675 other comments debating that from every angle.

I want to talk about 14 or 15 year olds being put in a position to expel each other. That's fucking horrifying.

Old sigline: I've been cutting back on the drinking.

New Sigline: lol it's football season.

You still want to talk about this I'm game. (COVID quarantine with 4 kids really has me desperate for adult conversations)

Wet stuff on the red stuff.

Join us in the Key Players Club

You good man? A few responses today seem a little extra...

To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
@BuryHokie #ThanksFrank

He's accusing people he's never met as racists pieces of shit on twitter, so be glad he's only a mild asshole on here.

To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
@BuryHokie #ThanksFrank

you are outta whack, man. you know this is out of bounds.

"Why gobble gobble chumps asks such good questions, I will never know." - TheFifthFuller

He get's what he gives. IIWII.

he's not the only one, either

"Why gobble gobble chumps asks such good questions, I will never know." - TheFifthFuller

You need to take a long look in the mirror one day.

I'm good. I don't call people I've never met racists on social media. That person needs to look in the mirror.

We have enough drama on here without you bringing in your twitter beef. Keep that shit on the other site.

King Alum of the House Hokie, the First of His Name, Khal of the Turkey Legs, The rightful Heir to the Big Board, the Unbanned, Breaker of Trolls and Father of Gritty

Imagine logging off Twitter dot com, saying, I could use a break, let's talk about some football, going to do that, and continuing to bitch about Twitter dot com. Go outside.

Warning: this post occasionally contains strong language (which may be unsuitable for children), unusual humor (which may be unsuitable for adults), and advanced mathematics (which may be unsuitable for liberal-arts majors)..

You are annoying as all hell. Take a break buddy.

It's been ten hours lol

"Why gobble gobble chumps asks such good questions, I will never know." - TheFifthFuller

Students are not looking for power, they are looking to serve. Ut Prosim. Please withhold your broad condemnation of students who seek to serve their university by upholding academic standards. They are not rogue actors. They are trained and overseen by faculty and staff.

Thank you. This is precisely why I cringed at the original characterization of VT students serving on the honor court as "power hungry 20 year olds, whose brains aren't even fully developed yet."

Joffrey, Cersei, Ilyn Payne, the Hound, Jeff Jagodzinski, Paul Johnson, Pat Narduzzi.

Unless it's changed 180 degrees, that is NOT how the VT honor court works.

Reminds me of the title of my favorite fake autobiography: "180 Degrees: My Life as a Tarheel Athlete"

"Why gobble gobble chumps asks such good questions, I will never know." - TheFifthFuller

"Hey Bud, you wont have to hold the opponent to 17 points anymore."

So maybe someone can enlighten me....
How does someone end up on an student honor court? Is it voluntary? What motivates someone to be a part of a system where your VOLUNTARY job is to punish your peers? I'm just having a hard time wrapping my head around this...

It is voluntary and the job is NOT to punish people. It is to evaluate accusations of academic misconduct made by faculty.

Some people hold the absurd notion that these students want to go on some kind of power trip. No one likes Honor Court cases, students or faculty. I have known students who have served. I suggest people here not impugn their motives without knowing the facts.

So you have some knowledge on this, that's good.

Follow ups:
1. So honor court is STRICTLY limited to upholding academic standards?
2. All evidence available is considered and weighed?

Anything short of that makes the whole system suspect and anyone who voluntarily participates in it as a party to perpetuating an unfair system.

I was accused of lying about taking a test my TA lost. I didn't have to go to the honor court because I was about to take the TA to the dean with some pretty serious accusations. If the system is broken and my peers voluntarily take part in it, you can be damn sure I hold them personally accountable.

But then again, maybe the system is fair and justice is handed out fairly and equitably.

1. Yes
2. The accusation is presented and the student is allowed to respond. It is not, however, a court of law.

Is the student permitted to present exculpatory evidence?

A student is always allowed to present their side and any evidence they have that they did not engage in wrongdoing. But there are no lawyers, witnesses, or requirement to prove the case beyond reasonable doubt. I believe they use a preponderance of evidence standard but I have not personally sat on a proceeding.

having sat in on one as a student's "counsel", i have little faith in the VT honor court. I felt like the entire process was slanted against the student.

"Why gobble gobble chumps asks such good questions, I will never know." - TheFifthFuller

It is mind-boggling to me that if a student has a 49% chance they didn't cheat, they still face punishment.

Yeah, preponderance of the evidence seems like a very unsatisfactory standard considering what is at stake for the student. I think clear and convincing evidence would be more suitable and a higher standard, as it is used in many administrative proceedings.

From one of the Josh Jackson threads:

gobble gobble chumps PLS | 1 year 9 months # ^
I have seen students be "convicted" (if you will) based on nothing other than the professor's "professional opinion" that the students in question "just had to have been" cheating because they made the same (admittedly bizarre and very wrong) error in response to an exam question... even though I was there on the student's behalf as the section TA who was in-room proctoring the exam at the time and my own "professional opinion" included being an eyewitness who could establish that the students had different exam forms, were not sitting in sight-line of each other or each other's exams, did not get up during the exam, did not take phones out or have smart watches, etc etc etc etc. It's ridiculous.

"Why gobble gobble chumps asks such good questions, I will never know." - TheFifthFuller

Comment Score: +32 | Vote: β–² β–Ό

"Why gobble gobble chumps asks such good questions, I will never know." - TheFifthFuller

Nottingham turned me and another girl in sophomore year because our homework was "too similar"

His syllabus (which I brought in) stated: "classmates are encouraged to work on homework together"

I was found guilty and had to work 150 hours unpaid at my on-campus job at Hokie Grille. I prolly gained 10 pounds while recouping my missed wages smuggling free nuggets and waffle fries.

Honor court is a joke and every time I see Nottingham sitting courtside eating popcorn I curse his name.

VT Marketing Class of 2009
Current Roanoke-Hokie
Go Hokies!

And I thought having Seref for QM was rough.

The Orange and Maroon you see, that's fighting on to victory.

While I am glad to hear this is how it is supposed to work, I was brought before the honor court for a potential violation when I was at Tech. I brought several different pieces evidence to support my case, and was specifically told they could not be used. Although admittedly I later got my case thrown out because of "procedural issues" so maybe that was it?

There's always a lighthouse. There's always a man. There's always a city.

Sounds to me like failure to consider exculpatory evidence would definitely be a procedural issue, but who knows?

If you're not sure if my comment warrants a "/s", it probably does.

I agree, but I never got an explanation or anything. Just literally the most stressful time for me at Tech.

There's always a lighthouse. There's always a man. There's always a city.

So once again, here's the issue I have. The university doesn't feel that a student getting potentially suspended or expelled (not to mentioned the 10's of thousands of dollars of tuition) isn't worthy of ANY requirements of proof?

To me that's madness, and going back to my original comment, means that students are VOLUNTARILY perpetuating this. I've never been through the process, but I think those who have been wronged by the system are justified in feeling PERSONALLY wronged by the students who voluntarily engaged in their judgement/sentence.

Very true. My wife once served on the Student Conduct Board and had to recommend expulsion of students for failing to meet Radford's code of conduct. Other time she would recommend extensive counseling to save the students. It's a case by case basis.

β€œBut do kind of enjoy reading this thread, it's really nice because Auburn can't swoop in and take our juicy ripe tomatoes.” ~ lewiswb

I was never accused of academic misconduct so thankfully I never had to learn much about the Honor Court...

Can the accused opt out of the student judgment or whatever and ask for a hearing with faculty/staff only?

No. A complaint brought to the Honor Court is mediated by the Honor Court. Trust me, we (faculty) hate sending anything to the Honor Court and will almost always work with a student individually if possible. We don't want to ruin lives. Sometimes the offense is egregious and must be dealt with formally.

I had the extreme displeasure of sitting through an Honor Court proceeding last spring semester as a complainant.

I would have strongly preferred to render my own grade penalty (it was a homework assignment), but my university very strongly encourages faculty to go through the Honor Court for such matters. Given the recent reputation of the institution (especially here on TKP... ahem), I get it... but it sucks.

No, I *don't* want to go to the SEC. Why do you ask?

We don't love dem Hoos.

Correct. I served on it as a student. It's not about power.

Am I supposed to be questioning my stance after this declaration? You've bragged on this board about how much money you make and donate to VT and have accused other people of being broke in a derogatory fashion.

Whatever insane parallel you are trying to make here, it's not a good one. I was a highly ranking officer in the VTCC when I was a senior. Those are the "types" of kids they ask to be on the honor court. I did not seek it out, but I met the qualifications. Had nothing to do with your amateur psycho analysis of "power hungry" kids seeking to kick out ballers for fun. You couldn't be more wrong. And I remarked on my donations only when told VT "doesn't need fans like me".. lol- yes they do, and many more like me if you want to beat Clemson one day. I never remarked on how much money I make.

You remarked about your substantial donations (rich), and you called people broke or broke millennials. I can't remember exactly which one, but I definitely wasn't the only one who saw it. That's using wealth as a measure of superiority whether you realize it or not. It wasn't directed at me, nor would I be insulted by it, but it's still an attempt to lord superiority over others.

Also, your experience on this conduct/honor court/committee from 30 years ago doesn't feel particularly relevant, nor does it make me think you have tremendously informed opinions about the current group of 20 year olds that are being discussed here.

Also, if you actually read my other comments, which you clearly didn't based on this and your other reply to me somewhere else in here, this isn't about players being victimized. My stance has been that 20 year olds shouldn't be standing judge and jury over other 20 year olds, student athlete or not. So quit making it about that.

Let's have the coaches decide. They are older than 20 years old, right? Let's let them decide what to do with kids that cheat on their academic work, since VT is all about football. We need to give football players a fair judge and jury, like their coaches perhaps, that are paid to win. That's a great idea. Or how about professors? Let's let their mature brains kick kids out that cheat. I'm sure they will be fair to the ballers. And I was actually on this committee 30 years ago, so yes my opinion is more relevant than your uninformed soap box here.

Missed this conversation and it's now 3 months old but hey got nothing else to do....

I had the pleasure(?) of being involved in both the Judicial Review and Honor Court process while at VT. I was part or sat in quite a few. Unfortunately my experience with both was not as altruistic as GM and DC have experienced.

It got so bad that as a Head RA I would not even report potential JRs for most cases because I knew the student would be punished way beyond the severity of the issue. Having watched several students be expelled for infractions that should be classified under poor judgment I couldn't in good conscious send many of them forward. Especially since I knew what a jackass the JR reviewer was.

I was part of 2 Honor Court cases. Not against me but I was somewhat wrapped into both. The first was during my sophomore year. A girl I sat next to in class was accused of cheating on exam. She argued against it and asked me to come in to speak on her behalf. She was not a well liked person in class but I knew she didn't cheat on the exam because I had full view of her doing the essays. The Honor Court decided it was not necessary to hear from me and that the "likelihood" that she cheated was too high. She was expelled. A joke.

The second time was in my Junior year. A freshman student I knew somehwat was accused.of cheating by a professor of mine. She was adamant that this kid had somehow cheated on his final to get his grade above failing. The kid argued that he had studied appropriately and passed with top marks on the final. But the professor couldn't believe it. The Honor Court decided without evidence that this kid must have cheated because his grades were mostly quite poor. I found out only having run into him while walking across the Drillfield. I couldn't believe it because I knew for a fact this was bullshit because that professor whom I liked and had good relationship with had asked me to help her with that class. I graded work for her, I handed out assignment, hell I even had students coming to me in her student hours. The professor had asked me to help because she had no time. I start mid-semester and quickly found that students grades for assignments were missing in her book and that in group assignments some kids were graded and others weren't. Also that she blanket assigned a B to half the midterms because she had "no time" and before handing the midterms back I offered to read through all of them and offer adjusted scores. which I did. I handled it for the rest of the year, unpaid. When I heard about this I immediately demanded to speak to the Honor Court, to which the student representatives refused. No matter my arguments they were "certain that no amount of evidence could exonerate this students performance and violations. The decision was final". they couldn't spend 30 minutes to hear me out. I went to the Dean of my college who also had no time to listen. I ended up having to go to the Head of Student Res Life who really liked me to ask him for help. In the end it took me staying 2 and a half extra weeks into Summer as the Head of Student Res Life spoke to the President to get someone to listen. I explained my evidence and brought copies of the teacher's ledger which I had copied the very day I ran into that student to make sure I had actual evidence. In the end I was able to show that even after I had done ALL of the grading work and readjusted every students scores correctly this professor still didn't bother to record every score correctly. Nobody's grade was accurate. At the end the President himself called the student to apologize to him and his parents and reinstate him for the fall.

Having been part of the system I appreciate the efforts that others put in, but to blanket state that students serving on Honor Courts are universally not power hungry or prejudicial is wrong. In some cases even just being strict to "rules" is prejudicial. Things are complex and in both my experiences with it there was a propensity to apply a very strict interpretation of rules in an effort to be fair to all students. That to me tells me that these students aren't emotionally mature enough to make decisions like this that seriously impact the lives of others because some of them are unable to delineate well enough between the rule and the spirit.

In no way do I believe the Honor Court should have the ability to expell anyone. Ever. Frankly, now much more astute on this issue, I now know that student Honor Courts are not altruistic at all and are in fact a means to legally distance schools from making these decisions themselves to avoid prosecution from students and familie. Every Student must sign the pledge part of which states we all agree to the Honor Court procedures, which are technically not decisions by the university itself. It's a joke and a particularly cruel one.

How is it possible they operate like that? Our high school honor court had more strict rules than that.
1) Accused could have any teacher or student as a witness.
2) Accused was allowed to present any evidence they wanted.
3) it took a supermajority of the board to vote to punish and unanimous to expel, (most punishments consisted of taking a zero, writing letters of apology, numerous hours of helping that teacher or other school employee with tasks, marching tours on Saturdays, forced to work student events or sporting events)
4) the professor or other student accusing the student of cheating lying or stealing didn't present evidence a separate unit called JAG did, those students were not part of the Honor court.
4a) most evidence consisted of cheats sheets, fully plagiarized papers, stolen shoes or a wallet.
5) we actually had such a low conviction rate several teachers refused to bring us cases where they suspected students copied off others homework or tests because we wouldn't convict on those strong suspicions.

Yes I had the displeasure of voting to expel three students, two for stealing and one for cheating. (The cheating student was then allowed back in the school by the assistant headmaster when his parents donated money for a new computer lab, which lead me to getting suspended when I used my time at an assembly to speak about the process that was not part of the student handbook)

Wet stuff on the red stuff.

Join us in the Key Players Club

How much longer are we going to keep talking about the PTSD you all have from voting in student honor courts? This site is a FOOTBALL site!

So I guess we'll have to shut it down this fall when we have no football? And the round ball threads need to go away?

OT discussions are more than half the reason I come here. And this OT discussion is at least partially related to football. What else we got to talk about right now?

If we can't argue anonymously over the internet about meaningless shit, we are truly lost. /s

Oh look, I'm being "downvoted" for calling out people who obsess about honor courts every time the get a chance. I guess I'll be sent to the TKP honor court.

Yes, being judged by your peers is clearly a bad idea and can never work.

/s

Ok boomer

I can't tell if you are doubting the truth of Fernleys statement or asking how it is allowed/permitted to be the way he says it is.

I really hope it's the latter...

As much as some folks want to believe that people and processes like this are more often than not altruistic and fair, more often than not they are anything but.

Asking how it's allowed. The honor court should have a written set of rules and procedures that anyone can read.

Wet stuff on the red stuff.

Join us in the Key Players Club

I don't think they operate without witnesses normally.

in the first instance I was not in the room. So I don't know what was said or what they had her agree to etc. I wasn't given time for whatever reason. It irked me but as they say I was not in the room where it happened. What I know is she was expelled for cheating that day which I knew she hadn't.

The second instance I ran into the student after the Honor Court decision was made. Literally on his way back to his dorm so I have no idea what happened inside. But I knew he got screwed over and then it pissed me off that the Honor Court couldn't be bothered to listen to more evidence. That read to me like power hungry douchebags that felt it was their duty to be so high and mighty which by that time in my VT life I enjoyed pushing back on. I was not well liked by my Dean in my senior year and nearly failed his bullshit class until I got the highest score on the final.

I was not well liked by my Dean in my senior year and nearly failed his bullshit class until I got the highest score on the final.

So the kid in the second instance was you? ;^)

If you're not sure if my comment warrants a "/s", it probably does.

In the first case, unless you had constant eyes on the student and not taking your own exam, how would you know if the student was cheating? You still should have been allowed to present your evidence though.

Second case, why on earth would you, as a student yourself, be getting involved with the grading of other students work? That isnt cool in my opinion. In this case, it sounds like the professor was much more in the wrong than the court. In a situation where the court has to lean heavily on a professor's opinion, that is probably the greatest weakness in the process.

Sorry, I dont aim to defend the court as if they never make a mistake. I am sure there are weaknesses to the process but so does every other judicial process.

"If you don't have time to do it right, when will you have time to do it over?"

TA's (grad students) help grade all the time. You knew that, right? PhD candidates are allowed to teach classes (they're still students) - I'm pretty sure I took several classes being taught by PhD candidates.

Maybe Fernley can clarify. I understood it as he had the same professor for another class, as a regular student, not a TA or grad assistant. And I will clarify, I dont think other students are incapable of grading, it just seemed irresponsible to me that the professor would do it in an unofficial way. I also think it was irresponsible for a professor to assign blanket letter grades. My overwhelming point being, maybe the professor deserves more blame than the honor court.

"If you don't have time to do it right, when will you have time to do it over?"

Yeah blanket grades are bad but I distinctly remember getting the exact grade I needed for a B in a class on a final paper... I don't remember the grade but I calculated what I needed for a B and when I checked later that's what the professor gave me....πŸ™πŸ½

No. What you are saying is correct. I was a student in that class and you are technically correct. Unless I was watching her constantly how would I know? But the same can be said of the professor right? I know he wasn't watching her constantly either. I'm not ashamed to say that while she was not well liked in the class she was rather attractive and wearing a particularly flattering summer dress that day. It was difficult to not notice her for that reason alone, but even still I could see that she had her head down and was writing the entire time. Typically, in my experience, cheaters need to take time to read, process and then write.

I do agree with you about the professor having the most blame there.

Absolute power corrupts absolutely

"Go Hokies!" - Thomas Jefferson
@HaydenDubya

Or a situation where we defend 20 year olds actions no matter what because they play football? Yep. You don't know anyone on the honor court, yet you quickly label them broadly "power hungry". No chance they are upholding the values of the university and protecting the thousands of kids that don't cheat or run afoul of the law? nah... all about the ballers.. they never do wrong, it's always a conspiracy.

Someone suspended. Debate about honor court. Every time, like clockwork.

(add if applicable) /s

Ummm, excuse you. I chose to make a joke of the situation thank you very much. /s

I know! I made a comment about it above and got some nonsense about OT topics being important and the something something altruistic.

Oh good, because we are really solid on D so we can afford to loose depth...

I can imagine no more rewarding a career. And any man who may be asked in this century what he did to make his life worthwhile, I think can respond with a good deal of pride and satisfaction:
β€œI served in the United States Navy"

KCCO

50+ new comments...

Me:

Is coronavirus over yet?

Wish I could give this 100 legs

HONOR court= academic issues only, the professor has to really wanna waste their own time to try to frag you, and the students on the court are (or at least WERE) generally very stubborn about finding any reason available to let the accused off even if they were obviously guilty.

STUDENT CONDUCT committee: enforce lots of ambiguous rules from the Hokie handbook as strictly as possible. Would happily give the death penalty for farting in an elevator if they could.

THEY ARE DIFFERENT. BE MAD AT THE RIGHT ONE FOR THE RIGHT REASON.

Major Payne gets a leg.

β€œBut do kind of enjoy reading this thread, it's really nice because Auburn can't swoop in and take our juicy ripe tomatoes.” ~ lewiswb

Hee Hee Hee
HO
Hee Hee
HAA
HEE HEE HEE

Never Forget #1 Overall Seed UVA 54, #64 UMBC 74

When a man get to eyeball me, it makes my Agent Orange act up and I get the urge to KILL!

That's right, I said Whiskey Indiana November, get used to the sounds of these words!

β€œBut do kind of enjoy reading this thread, it's really nice because Auburn can't swoop in and take our juicy ripe tomatoes.” ~ lewiswb

Let's maybe take a mulligan on this thread

I think we've ran out of balls from the number of mulligans we've taken on these types of threads.

Gobble Till You Wobble

To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
@BuryHokie #ThanksFrank

profile pic checks out.

Great movie, btw.

πŸ¦ƒ πŸ¦ƒ πŸ¦ƒ

We could definitely sum up this thread in Tin Cup gifs

Gobble Till You Wobble

To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
@BuryHokie #ThanksFrank

We put the K in Kwality

My 2020 Season/Covid19 Challenge: only comment with Marvel memes.

My 2019 Season Challenge: only comment with Star Wars memes. (completed as of Nov. 29)

Somebody tackle that guy. Tell him he doesn't need to hit it from there.

We put the K in Kwality

But they'll remember your 12!

Even by TKP standards, this might be the most off the rail thread of all time

Exhibit A of why it gets harder and harder to spend time here.

Reminder that there is a collapse thread button. Works well to ignore derailments.

Whatever. It was one bad year.

Seasonal Brew means High ABV for football season and standard the rest of the year.

Ignore derailments??? That's the only reason I'm here.

We put the K in Kwality

If you're referring to the Tin Cup gifs and not the meaningless debate occuring up above us, then i can't help you.

Gobble Till You Wobble

No....no way. I cant cite any specific threads, but i just feel like this isnt even close.

My wife takes the kids and leaves the house while I watch my Hokie games.........nuff said

This thread is all kinds of amazing

Wow...I love how this thread turned into a debate about the merits of the honor court, when it was the coaching staff that made the decision to suspend a player from what I understand. Just wow lol.

Nope not a coaches choice.

Wet stuff on the red stuff.

Join us in the Key Players Club

What exactly happened? Didn't feel like reading the entire thread

You'd be no more informed on the situation if you did read the entire thread, so why bother?

If you're not sure if my comment warrants a "/s", it probably does.

It wouldn't help if you had

I think "Night Court" was an underrated show

Bull was the man! I liked John Larroquette and Marsha Warfield as well

I had the theme for that as a ringtone for a while

...aaaaannnd now its stuck in my head again.

Boo din, bern der ber ber ber

Have not seen any arrests or police activity on the online records, so I'm going to assume no Fulmer Cup points at this time.

TKPhi Damn Proud
BSME 2009

So wait what happened

Becton ran off with your mare.

β€œBut do kind of enjoy reading this thread, it's really nice because Auburn can't swoop in and take our juicy ripe tomatoes.” ~ lewiswb

Well played. Have a carrot.

β€œBut do kind of enjoy reading this thread, it's really nice because Auburn can't swoop in and take our juicy ripe tomatoes.” ~ lewiswb

I gotta say that researching horse gifs is more than a small pleasure for me

I would hope so since they are your peer-in-hooves.

β€œBut do kind of enjoy reading this thread, it's really nice because Auburn can't swoop in and take our juicy ripe tomatoes.” ~ lewiswb

that's a horrible angle of Julia Roberts.

Warning: this post occasionally contains strong language (which may be unsuitable for children), unusual humor (which may be unsuitable for adults), and advanced mathematics (which may be unsuitable for liberal-arts majors)..

Pretty horsey, that I'd like to meet...
Pretty horsey, I'll give you carrots to eat...

Wet stuff on the red stuff.

Join us in the Key Players Club

All this bump did was make me realize we've been in quarantine for 3 months now

King Alum of the House Hokie, the First of His Name, Khal of the Turkey Legs, The rightful Heir to the Big Board, the Unbanned, Breaker of Trolls and Father of Gritty

Wouldn't being suspended indefinitely make it darn near impossible that any other school would take a flyer on you?

Have you met the $EC, or F$U, or several others...that simply do not care.
And if they do, they will brush it off as a difference of opinion between Fuente and the player.

To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
@BuryHokie #ThanksFrank

da U

Pretty sure he has the brother at Georgia Tech. No sauces, but i have a feeling they're the school to keep an eye on.

Gobble Till You Wobble

I think you're mixing him up with Jaylen Griffin

Joffrey, Cersei, Ilyn Payne, the Hound, Jeff Jagodzinski, Paul Johnson, Pat Narduzzi.

Gobble Till You Wobble

This coach....He is losing the state. Letting home grown talent walk away through the transfer portal of all things, not offering ALL the kids in the state of VA who have a dream of playing college football, not taking every HS football coach in the state out to coffee. He needs to go NOW!

.........completely /S

I don't know why he was suspended. Becton was a guy whose skill set would be perfectly suited to Teerlinck's scheme- good size, quick first step, and does a good job of holding his ground.

Unfortunately, Becton also was prone to major blunders. None of the defensive ends had as many high profile busts on assignments per capita than Becton that I noted in my reviews. Wether it was botching a spill or force call, fitting into the wrong gap, or not following his directed path on blitzes, Becton had a couple of brutal mistakes that hurt the team during the season. As result, Griffin and Adams started to get more responsibility as the season moved on.

With Garbutt, Belmar, and Griffin clearly established as the top three returners, and Justus Reed coming in, Adams, Zion Debose, and all the freshman will have to make a lot of noise to get reps this season.

Five star get after it 100 percent Juice Key-Playing. MAN

I'm perfectly happy with freshman making some noise.

Not a ton of choice in that regard.

Will Debose finally be able to play this year??

heck if I know. I hope so

Five star get after it 100 percent Juice Key-Playing. MAN